A Contrarian View of FFVII

This week is seeing the commercial release of Advent Children, so it's appropriate to see Jeremy Parish discussing the original game. However, he's got a slightly different take on the game than you might be used to. Seen via GameSetWatch. From Parish's article: "What better way to sell to people than by speaking directly to them? Cloud Strife is the everynerd -- wrapped up in delusions of greatness when allowed to take things on his own carefully-selected terms until he sees the world for what it is and is forced to come to grips with the fact that he's actually completely pathetic. That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life. It's the kind of parable Jesus would have been proud to have shared with the hungry masses between bites of magical fishloaf, the cigarette ad of nerd coming-of-age stories -- a promise to nerdlings that if you face down your demons, accept your failures and struggle to move beyond them, you'll save the world and your childhood crush will fall madly in love with you."

Comments

Contrarian?

[EggyToast]

I thought it was already established that there were a large number of people who didn't like FF7 when it came out, and more who changed their mind as time went on?

For many people, it was the first Final Fantasy game that they played, so it's obvious why there are many who hold it in high regard. But it's sluggishly paced and the characters are mostly interchangeable towards the end game, despite their roles (or lack thereof in some cases) in the story.

Re:Contrarian?

[TheCarp]

Yah it was certainly no FFI...now there was a game with a deep story line and amazing character development.

Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of the Final Fantasy series, and have played most of them to the end. However, they have always been kind of cheesy in alot of departments.

Actually, my main problem is that they seem to have become alot more movie-like since around VII. The first several hours of some of them is just like watching a movie with very little actual interaction beyond running the battles.

I long for them to bring back the feel of the old games, like I, II, and III (US release numbers, never went back for the japanese release versions).

-Steve

Re:Contrarian?

[hackwrench]

Great, a person who's only concept of RPG is tabletop RPG. Couple that with a lack of metaphysical understanding, and value system that says what he likes in a game is what everyone should like in a game, and you've got one person who has no standing in reviewing games period.

On top of that he's seriously emotionally repressed. Apathy is about as emotionally stable as death is medically stable.

Also, he's reading a lot into the game. I never thought that Tifa was Zack's girlfriend, and besides Cloud and Tifa grew up together.

Then there's his stereotype of the average Final Fantasy player. On what basis is he judging the success or failure of a life?

He calls FFVII a winnowing rod. Well I honestly believe that generally those who like the game to varying degrees are better off than those who don't.

Re:Contrarian?

[Cecil]

it's sluggishly paced and the characters are mostly interchangeable towards the end game, despite their roles (or lack thereof in some cases) in the story.

You know, the same thing could be said about any of the later FF games. 8? Most definitely. 9? Pretty much, yeah. 10? Very much so. Even Final Fantasy 6(3) had the same issue due to the fact that anyone could use Espers to learn any and every spell, although at least the special abilities were somewhat unique and non-interchangable. But really, you rarely needed any special abilities once your raw damage output could reach up to of 9999 per turn or beyond with the Genji Glove and/or Offering. FF5 was *built* around the concept of having interchangable characters with the job system.

FF2 was the only North American FF game where your characters had hard, defined roles. Rydia was a caster, Cecil was a fighter, Rosa was a healer, and so on. Even though you could deck him out in White Mage equipment, there was no way to make Cecil become a caster, short of his tiny underpowered complement of white magic spells. Even if you tried to give her decidedly uber equipment and put her in the front row, Rydia would never be any good at melee fighting. Her stats simply did not allow it.

FF7 was and remains my favourite of the FF series. It was not my first, nor my last, but it is my favourite. I hated the Materia system, but I loved the characters and to a lesser extent the storyline. And I detect a note of truth in this guy's suggestion that Cloud was the ultimate geek hero. I think that to some extent I identified with him. I wanted him to save the world and get the girl, because that's what I would've wanted.

I don't think there was any need to be offensive about the way he said it, but I think there is some truth to what he's saying.

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

Not to mention the plot holes that you can drive a semi-truck through.

Most of the people that like that game like it due to nostalgia - they never had an SNES, it was the first console RPG they played, etc etc. But, I agree. The game is just awful. I was happy when Aris died. The characters are cookie cutter. The story DRAGS ON FOREVER. The end guy is too easy. The sidequests are stupid. In the end, everybody dies anyway, even though she "saved the world".

~W

Re:Contrarian?

[zerocool^]

The problem you mention in FF3/6 is simply that the game will level you up too quickly; or, more accurately, there are a number of sidequests in the World of Ruin that people won't pass up on. Think: If you were playing it for the first time, would you sit there and hammer away at Intangir on Gogo's island in the World of Balance before the floating continent? I wouldn't. Or, in the world of ruin... would you try to get every character + Umaro and Gogo? Nope, I would have stopped once I had a good compliment of Celes, Sabin, Edgar, Terra, Shadow, Mog, and maybe Gau.

People get overpowered in FF3, and then wonder why the game gets lame. You're not supposed to be able to do 9999 damage 8 times per round with Genji Glove + Offering! You're not supposed to be able to cast 3 ultima spells per round for 4 MP (magic box / economizer, Ult. Haste Ult. Ult.). You (and I) are overpowered by the end of the game BECAUSE we love it so much that we explore every nook and cranny. We do the phoenix cave. We beat all 8 dragons. We get Tritoch and beat doom gaze. We upgrade Odin to Raiden. We de-curse the cursed shield. We do Elbot's rock. We get the Water Rondo.

If you were speed running the game, it would be much harder.

~Will

It's better this way...

[Qzukk]

accept your failures and struggle to move beyond them

Because obviously trying to improve ourselves is doomed to failure, we're all going to remain permanent virgins for the rest of our lives.

Mod TFA down

[Rob T Firefly]

(-1 Flamebait)

Er.. WTF

[Turn-X Alphonse]

"The petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life"

Maybe it's just me here.. MAYBE.. but isn't life a meaningless exercise of not dying untill you die..? Surely being a failure at life means you're oh.. DEAD!

Maybe we should stop judging people on their job/material goods and go "Hey this guys doing something he enjoys, he's not doing too bad really is he?" Life is not what you own, what you buy or what you want to buy.

Re:Er.. WTF

[linvir]

As a journalist, it's his job, nay, his duty to inform the likes of us mere readers of our most shameful shortcomings. I don't understand why people like you are always wasting our time with these 'independent thoughts', when people like this are already being paid to pre-fabricate opinions and ideas for us.

Get over your stupid little philosophy, sit down, shut up and consume. Maybe if you weren't such an ideological insurgent, the elders would have already picked you out to work as a supplier of opinions alongside the eminent Mr. Parish.

You go ahead and come up with some 'original idea' to counter my arguments, I'm not afraid. My masters in the gaming press will protect me from tyrants like you! Your military training and superhuman strength (apparently you everynerds are all soldiers now) are no match for my robot-like obedience!

Go ahead, be contrarian.. but...

[The Living Fractal]

It's ok to be contrarian. You have every right to form an opinion. But I can't help but say I detect a degree of hypocrisy when I read this:

"That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life."

I mean, is it just me, or does it seem like this is exactly what this guy represents, within the context of the very article he has written about it?

The rest of it.. I tried hard to find anything meaningful. But every time I just can't help but think the author has personal experience pushing each word into the keyboard.

TLF

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[TooMuchEspressoGuy]

I've always thought that FFVI had much more meat to the game.

I agree completely. In a smaller storage space, and with pixels rather than 3-D models, FF6 managed to tell a much better, richer, and more complex story than FF7. Every one of the many characters had his/her own personality and slice of backstory, and each had his/her time in the spotlight at some point in the game. Oh, and Kefka makes Sephiroth look like a pansy.

My reasoning

[Traiklin]

the only real reason I enjoyed this game was because of the setting.

I got so sick and tired of seeing the EXACT same setting for every RPG, is there some rule when it comes to making a good RPG that says "You MUST set this in times of dragons and dungeons!"? I understand that they are all based off the D&D games but come on, do they ALL have to take place in the same time frame?

Earthbound, Secret of Evermore, Final Fantasy VI (III in the US), VII all these use the same formula but they exsist in the steam universes (where they are set in the past but have future tech) which is perfect for RPG's.

That's my reasoning for people jumping on FFVII, is that the market was getting saturated with RPG's that took place in the same time frame no matter what...kind of like now, the most popular MMORPG's seem to all take place in the same time frame when there are so many other routes they can go (and there are some that are giving it a shot).

Re:My reasoning

[meringuoid]

I got so sick and tired of seeing the EXACT same setting for every RPG, is there some rule when it comes to making a good RPG that says "You MUST set this in times of dragons and dungeons!"? I understand that they are all based off the D&D games but come on, do they ALL have to take place in the same time frame?

Well, let's see...

* checks RPGs on game shelf *

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights: Forgotten Realms, D&D
Morrowind: Vvardenfell, Mournhold and Solstheim, magic mediaeval
Fallout 1 and 2: radioactive future California
Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines: contemporary California
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2: a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away

Four mediaeval D&D style, four futuristic, one present-day. It's not THAT overwhelming. I'm guessing that the tendency among RPGs to mediaevalism is largely due to the established D&D market and game worlds, which save a lot of work in design.

Contrarian? More like asking for it...

[Kaellenn]

Everything about this article yells: "I couldn't get attention on myspace so I'm gonna try to piss off as many people as possible."

Honestly, everyone is entitled to their own opinions but the entire tone of this article is "I'm calling you an idiot; what're ya gonna do about it?"

squueeenix isn't squaresoft

[awing0]

The old Squaresoft we know isn't anymore. This FF VII movie just proves it. It's one of the only things they have that might spawn a successful franchise (besides NEW and GOOD FF games). If this movie goes over well, expect to see more of the same old thing. I thought the FFs were just ONE game, no sequels and no returning characters. I guess that changed with X-2 and the marketing engine that is now in full swing.

Amano (Artwork for 1-6) is long gone. Yoshida (FF Tactics) is designing the new FF XII. Uematsu (music composer) is also gone.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but I think SE is the EA of RPGs now.

My Life as a Kettle

[Doomstalk]

That's your average game-obsessed message board dork in a nutshell: the petty tyrant of a tiny little niche of the Internet but a failure in real life.

Says the man who A) reviews 7 year-old games B) uses them to insult people.

Re:Whoa there

[jandrese]

How do we know it was unsafe?

For all we know Cloud had to go on a side quest where he slotted up his condom with lube materia.

Dumb.

[menace3society]

This has to be the dumbest "review" of a game I've read in a long time. To sum up his major "arguments" (and I'm committing an injustice to the civility of marital altercations the world over by using this term):

• "I don't like FF7" (not really arguable), "I'm a rational person" (debatable), "therefore no rational people like FF7" (fallacious).
  
• "It's not really an "RPG" according to the classical definition." But then, 90% of D&D sessions I've played in involved about as much role-playing as a random number generator. For better or worse, the term 'RPG' in video games refers to games like Final Fantasy. Get over it.
  
• "The characters are animated inconsistently--there are several versions of each character, with widely varying degrees of realism for each." This is, I suppose, as valid a complaint as any of the author's, but since he spends two paragraphs talking about how great the graphics are (and eventually goes on to complain about how good the graphics were) he does kind of undermine himself here.
  
• "The story is convoluted and weird." This is also true. Too bad FF7 didn't have a plot as good as the original FF, where the ultimate bad guy trying to take over the world is a souped up version of someone you killed in the very beginning, or Suikoden where the King is being controlled by an evil witch--oh wait, no, he's not, he's just love sick.
  
• "Cloud isn't a one-dimensional character who picks one of two personality types and never changes emotional state throughout the game." While technically a true statement, I'm not sure if it counts as criticism.
  
• "Sephiroth is a bizarre and incomprehensible villain, and hence inferior to Kefka." Or, to put it another way, Kefka is a 1970's destroy-the-world-I'm-evil comic book villain, and Sephiroth is a guy with his own neurosis, and motivations (however bizarre). Kefka just does it for the hell of it, really.
  

Basically, what it boils down to, is that this guy wishes all RPGs were still developed for the SNES because things like graphics, characters with personality, and entertainment are all things which subtract from a good RPG.

Re:More graphics, less gameplay

[Rei]

I know people will hate me for saying this, but Kefka was transparent. He was an Insane Evil Overlord(TM). Kill people with unneeded brutality! Destroy the world for no particular reason! All while dressing like a clown!

I just have trouble seing a character like that as a person. Now, Sephiroth, that was a "villain" I could get behind. Yes, he angsted a fair bit. But he had a plan, a purpose. He had a method to become a God that actually worked well within the framework of the game universe. He wasn't evil for evil's sake - he was purposefully evil.

Of course, here is my greatest heretical notion: that FF8 was a better written game than FF7. No, seriously, I mean it. Compare the dialogue from the earlier FFs (through 7) and later (say, 9; oh dear god, 9 was poorly written) to that in FF8.

Non-8 FFs:
A: "Oh, woe! The world will end!"
B: "WHAT?!?!?!?!!?!!!!?"
C: "Take heart, everyone, we can do it!!!!"
D: "Lets do it... together."
A: "Yes! For the world!!! If we believe in ourselves, we can do it!!!"

VIII did have its fair share of that kind of cliche (it's an FF tradition, after all), just not as much. And certainly not the entire script, as in IX. God, that was awful.

Not that FF8 didn't have its problems. Ultimecia would best be described, to borrow Miss Snark's term, as "aliens that arrive in chapter 14". Squall was deliberately hard to like, and as a video game MC, that's harder to deal with than an unlikable book MC. And lets not even get into the gameplay balance/time issues.

Of course, nothing beats Tactics. I think they were channelling George R. R. Martin on that one ;)

at the age you discover people are stupid...

[Glowing Fish]

We, as humans, aren't really all that smart

Do you all remember the age at which you could state, in all seriousness, that people aren't smart? And say it as a straight-forward comment, as if this is a great discovery? I think everybody goes through this period. Especially geeks. Especially geeks who may have had a hard time in the teenage years. But then, after you get done picking on the expected targets: mainstream culture and society, you have to prove yourself "geekier than thou" by picking on things in your own sub-culture, until only the very narrowest is good for you. I think we have all seen this and taken part in it.

The thing is, in places, FFVII is indeed stupid. It has the same hardcore hero who gets better and more magical powers, living everyone's dreams of power fulfillment. And of course he is surrounded by the same group of magical beautiful women. Of course it has a villain that you save the world from. The game mechanics are often repetitive. There are certain holes and inconsistences in the story. The world only has ten or so towns, and the planet is shaped like a Torus. There is an Evil Corporation(TM) running things. And many more. So, yes, like all human endeavor it has lots of stupidity. But it also has many, many smart and engaging things about it: the gradual, spooky peeling back of Cloud's character, the mixture of cute nostalgia and gothic elements, the look at the inner machinations of Shinra, the gigantic amounts of literary references, the sometimes understated dialogue, the design of the geographic locations you visit, and of course the music and graphics.

So, yes, while in some ways stupid and repetitive, it seems somewhat snide to dismiss it out of hand. He could say that he doesn't like playing it, or that its legions of fanboys and fangirls sometimes treat the game as the greatest thing ever. But I think Final Fantasy VII got its reputation for a reason. Lots of people who are not stupid at all think it is a great, great game.