Captain America vs. The Patriot Act?

Nerd_52637 writes "Yesterday, Marvel Comics released the first in its miniseries Civil War, which can only be described as a gutsy comic-book series focusing on the whole debate over homeland security and tighter government controls in the name of public safety. The seven-issue series once again puts superheroes right back in the thick of real-world news, just as DC Comics has Batman battling al-Qaeda in a soon-to-appear comic and Marvel's X-Men continue to explore themes of public intolerance and discrimination. In Civil War, hero is pitted against hero in the choice of whether or not to side with the government, as issues ranging from a Guantanamo-like prison camp for superheroes, embedded reporters and the power of media all play in the mix as Superheroes are ordered to register as human WMDs or be branded fugitives."

Comments

Future issues with issues

[nizo]

...Guantanamo-like prison camp for superheroes...

I just know the issue where they make all the superheroes pile into a giant naked pyramid will be a big hit.

Re:Future issues with issues

[killjoe]

"I don't believe there to be any hard evidence that prisoners are mistreated at Guantanamo;"

I don't know what you mean by "hard" evidence but we know for sure people have been waterboarded there and that's classified as torture. People have also been subjected to food and sleep deprivation, extremes of temprature, and being strapped in uncomfortable positions for extended periods in specially built devices. Finally people have been injected with various drugs.

Those have all been admitted to by the military itself. Not just allegations by prisoners. The military feels like those actions are not torture. But they again the military also feels like these human beings do not deserve all the rights specified under the UN human rights charter or the geneva conventions.

"the greatest complaint is that they are tried before a military tribunal instead of a civilian one (could be wrong, I hardly follow the issue)."

No the greatest complaint is that people have been severly tortured for extended periods of time. Those complaints are from people who were eventually let go. Perhaps you should follow the issue more closely. It's your country after all and you are somewhat responsible for what it does.

Having said that who know what's going there? It's not like any of us are allowed visits and even the red cross has to ask permission and schedule a visit. Nobody is stupid enough to torture people in front of visiting congressmen and red cross. They probably clean up for those visits.

Finally when the red cross asked to interview prisoners privately they were refused. The military would not allow it. Take that for what it's worth. I remember Saddam didn't want his scientists interviewed privately by the weapons inspectors before the war too.

Re:Future issues with issues

[PostItNote]

You don't get it both ways. They are either soldiers, or they are criminals. If they are criminals, then they get trials in front of a judge. If they are soldiers, then they get POW status and Geneva Convention protection. There ain't no third category except in the minds of people who want to establish a class of subhumans that have not been endowed by their creator with any inherent and inalienable rights; (among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).

Re:Future issues with issues

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Documented in an Army Inspector General's report obtained by Salon. Here's a link to the official report (sorry, PDF).

If the methods used at Guantanamo disturbed the FBI agents who visited (another source of problem reports early on), then the rest of us should be disturbed too.

In classic comic tradition

[i am kman]

Kudos to Marvel!

Comics in general and Marvel in particular have had a long tradition in embracing social issues - witness the classic Marvel comic series that decried on McCarthyism. This one is interesting because they aren't really taking sides.

Of course, many cartoons these days are overtly political (Southpark, American Dad, Boondocks) - at least Marvel tries hard to let the readers make up their own minds and explore the issue themselves.

lol, wut?

[voice_of_all_reason]

Superheroes are ordered to register as human WMDs

Or what? They'll arrest them? Superheroes are used to fighting other super-beings. If pissed off, how many puny humans could they kill before getting taken down?

This could turn out to be made of Win and Good after all.

Re:Been there, done that

[enrac]

They touched on this in Dark Night Returns. Reagan uses Superman in some Cold War skirmish, Batman is a fugitive . . .

Re:Right subjects, wrong audience

[RobotRunAmok]

All very good, but enlightening a generation far too young to do anything.

Uh huh. And what would you say is the target demographic -- and the average age -- of today's comic book reader?

(Hint: Your first guess is wrong.)

Re:Been there, done that

[Count Fenring]

Hmmm... I disagree. While both awesome pieces of work, neither is really dealing with the issues of government control in the same way, if at all.

For one, the conspiracy in Watchmen is non-governmental: It's actually an exceedingly liberal private citizen (Adrian/Ozymandias) who is controlling public opinion and worldview. The government plays a strang side-role in this; they are environment, not actor.

And Astro City: Confession, while one of my all-time favorite comics, is really dealing with public opinion and its manipulation by authority in a much softer, more human-focused way.

Maybe a better example would be Frank Miller's Martha Washington books, or Elektra: Assassin. Still, I don't think anything out there invalidates this project.

Re:Been there, done that

[NMerriam]

And it's still enjoyable today when Watchmen just makes one depressed with its 1980s "the end is nigh" fearmongering.

I agree, that '80s stuff is so dated, I can't believe anyone would think it has any relevance to modern events. Most political commentary really has no relevence beyond a few months from publication date, so I don't understand why anyone would waste their time writing or reading it.

I'd write more, but I'm meeting a friend to see V for Vendetta in a few minutes.

Was already wondering when this is gonna come

[Opportunist]

I mean, think about it. Some guy with super powers that could bag any government agency including its agents anytime and twice on Sunday, and he's still allowed to have a secret identity, lead a normal life and only put on his spandex to hunt down some bad guys?

In reality, he'd have been approached by the feds ages ago and offered the choice to either work for them or, more likely, some dirt would've been dumped on him to have the media label him the greatest threat to humanity since Saddam, then he'd been hunted down 'til he's dead.

Face it. Government does NOT like power that isn't in its hands and under its control.

CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International

[Anonymous Coward]

As a card-carrying member of Amnesty International (AI), I was shocked when AI accused Washington of running a Soviet-style gulag. I burned my AI membership card and flushed the ashes down the toilet. After all, AI could not provide any evidence supporting the outrageous claims, and using hyperbole to support human rights damages AI's credibility and the ultimate mission of rescuing victims of brutal (often Chinese) human-rights abuses.

Then, last month, I read about the stunning news report by the "Washington Post". It reported on CIA-gate: the CIA, with the full approval of the president, has been running a network of secret prisons where enemies of the American nation are interrogated. Although this network is nowhere near the status of the Soviet gulag, the network does put tremendous credibility in the original accusations by AI.

At times like these, we need a Captain America to fight for truth, justice, and Western values. A network of secret prisons grossly violates the most sacred of Western values.

Re:CIA Secret Prisons vs. Amnesty International

[FLEB]

At times like these, we need a Captain America to fight for truth, justice, and Western values.

As well as a plunger and some Scotch tape.

And someone mod'ed that "insightful".

[khasim]

Have you read the geneva conventions?

Yes. Many times.

They are being granted the "rights" given under the geneva conventions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Conventi on to those who fight without uniform against civilian populations.

And you're linking to Wikipedia. How about just linking to the documents themselves?

http://www.genevaconventions.org/

The "rights" of terrorists include the right to be killed like the barbarians they are.

You won't find that stated as such in there.

What you will find is that ... if you do not meet the qualifications to be a POW, you are a "civilian" and must be turned over to the local authorities for any crimes you may have committed.

If the local authorities do not exist, you may be held until they are established.

Other than that, you have all the same rights and protections that a POW has, except for things like getting paid.

The military is not allowed to torture anyone it captures. Regardless of their past actions.

Re:And someone mod'ed that "insightful".

[grimJester]

The only place where the word "unlawful" appears in the third Geneva Convention is the sentence

"Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention.".

The word "lawful" doesn't appear at all. The definitions you're talking about are prefaced with

"Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:"

The text relevant to those who don't fall under any of the POW categories is as follows:

Part I. General Provisions

...

Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

This is about more than the theme

[orbz]

To all you people rushing to say "Obscure comic company X did this in 1983 maaaan!"... just because some comic you read dealt with the issue of corrupt government before is not the same thing. This particular government is QUITE a particular government, and George Bush is named as the president in this Marvel series (according to TFA), which makes this a pretty specific attack on this very specific post-9/11 presidency and I think that makes this quite noteworthy. This isn't just about the fiction of it.

Re:Been there, done that

[snuf23]

Yes they are both graphic novels by Alan Moore.
I agree that V for Vendetta (although one could consider it fear mongering) is absolutely relevant today, just as it was when it was written.
I suppose OP might consider 1984 to be outdated as well, but I believe the basic story of a government exerting total and brutal control over the population is a timeless warning message.

Unfair!

[SEWilco]

But I'm not a WMD, my only power is in gaining /. Funny mod karma!

Re:Um...

[pseudochaotic]

Ah, slashdot. Where your pet issues are the only important, meaningful ones.

Who's going to explain this comic to

[alfredo]

bush? You can't hide the comics from him, he gets real angry when they do that.

Try reading the Watchmen again

[GunFodder]

I recently read the Watchmen again. It nicely captured the sense of impending nuclear holocaust that was a staple of the Cold War era. The Cold War ended along with the Soviet Union back in '91.

In the Watchmen the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan and threatens Pakistan, which nearly provokes World War III. Nowadays we invade Afghanistan and Iran, and no one does anything except quietly complain about American imperialism. It just isn't the same without another nuclear superpower.

I'm sorry but...

[caitsith01]

I'm sorry but if your default position was to believe the CIA and not Amnesty International then it's going to take more than superheroes to help you.

Slashdot heroes and villains

[Aceticon]

Aceticon's list of /. heroes and villains:

Heroes:
- First Poster
- Insightfull Man
- Super Funny
- Anonymous Coward
- Cmdr Taco

Villains:
- Grammar Nazi
- Insensitive Clod
- Mega Troll
- Anonymous Coward's Evil Twin

Re:Been there, done that

[mvdwege]

the conspiracy in Watchmen is non-governmental: It's actually an exceedingly liberal private citizen (Adrian/Ozymandias) who is controlling public opinion and worldview.

I respectfully submit that when a person starts to think that they can cure all humanity's ills by themselves, that they are the only enlightened leader capable of doing so, and that the end justifies the means, even if the means is killing millions, that that person has no right to any political classification but Fascist.

If they were to proclaim it was in service of the greater good, of which they are merely the executive officer, then they might make a claim to the classification of Communist (specifically a Marxist-Leninist, 'vanguard of the proletariat' and all that).

In no way can it be claimed they are a liberal, not even in the distorted US meaning of the word.

This message brought to you by your local Political Education Officer.

Mart

Re:You just don't get it

[nosferatu1001]

Not if they are operaitng IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY AT THE TIME - they are not acting as spies then!

if you as an invader are attacked by citizens with guns, then you have to treat any subsequent prisoners as POWS - in fact any and ALL prisoners have to be treated as POWS under article 4 until proven otherwise

"illegial combatants" is a term made up by the current administration that doesnt even make sense...

Book: Brave Men Run

[mo26101]

There is a very good book that addresses people with "super powers" and how the government reacts: Brave Men Run. The audio version of the book is available for free as a podcast.