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Sigil Drops Microsoft, Publishing With SOE

Labyrrinth writes "'As the development process is ongoing and constantly shifting, it became clear that MGS and Sigil had varying visions and direction for the title's development,' said Brad McQuaid, CEO of Sigil Games Online. 'In the best interest of Vanguard, it was decided that we would buy back the publishing rights from Microsoft.'" They've hooked up with Sony Online Entertainment, publishers of EQ and EQII, and Brad McQuaid's old employer. Aggro Me has commentary on this union.

43 comments

  1. So torn... by Brandee07 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm torn between celebrating this slap in the face to Microsoft and morning the loss of another promising MMO title to the evil that is SoE.

    1. Re:So torn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm torn between celebrating this slap in the face to Microsoft and morning the loss of another promising MMO title to the evil that is SoE."

      It sounds like SoE has no creative control over the project at all.

      No wonder Microsoft has such bad developer support for their consoles if what is implied by Sigil's description of dumping of them as a publisher is true.

  2. Ouch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft really doesn't need any more bad news like this just days before E3.

  3. WTF? by HunterZ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why would someone drop Microsoft as a publisher in favor of SoE? That's almost as ridiculous as Valve leaving Vivendi for EA.

    --
    Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
    1. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      they needed a sugar daddy and decided one of the evils is actually lesser? They appear to be in a good position to have an informed opinion on both, too.

    2. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "They appear to be in a good position to have an informed opinion on both"

      Yes. And it is clear from reading between the lines that it was a nightmare for Sigil to work with Microsoft.

      I hope Vanguard can deliver on a serious and hardcore MMORPG after the no-consequnces white bread Disneyesque-WoW has become so popular.

      You can't have amazing emotional highs without equally terrorizing emotional lows Blizzard!

    3. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe someone from Microsoft actually played the game, and realized it was going to bomb.

    4. Re:WTF? by Incoherent07 · · Score: 1

      Could it possibly be that the reason WoW is so popular is that it doesn't hate its playerbase the way that "serious and hardcore" MMOGs do?

      No, of course not, that'd be silly. 1.5 million people will gladly give you money to play a game which requires as much dedication to get past level 10 as WoW's endgame does...

      --
      This is my sig. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
    5. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, MS really has a poor track record in MMPORGs. Turbine ended up buying back their rights from MS with Asheron's Call, and before that MS got the lion's share of the blame by players when it came to the poor decisions and problems. Then Myth was cancelled about half way through development. Now this.

    6. Re:WTF? by MMaestro · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and we all saw how successful Asheron's Call 2 turned out to be while the first continues to function. A real breakaway success story there...

    7. Re:WTF? by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      You can't have amazing emotional highs without equally terrorizing emotional lows Blizzard!

      Really? Most videogames manage to do that without making you lose hours of progress or even requiring hours of "progress" consisting of the same actions over and over again.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    8. Re:WTF? by evilsofa · · Score: 1

      Because Sigil bought the publishing rights from Microsoft, Sigil is now the publisher instead of just the developer. Sigil now has total control over development and design; SoE just does the distribution and marketing.

    9. Re:WTF? by Beer+Moon · · Score: 1

      That's because Turbine is like King Sadim. Everything they touch turns to shit.

      I don't get their philosophy at all. Every game I've played by them has felt lifeless and bland, with transparency taking away all the magic and opacity where it doesn't belong.

      I can't tell you how upsetting it was to find out they'd been handed both D&D Online (which is ruined), AND Middle Earth Online. Maybe in 10 years someone can remake those titles into something decent. Till then, they're both going to be utter tripe.

    10. Re:WTF? by snuf23 · · Score: 1

      "WoW is so popular is that it doesn't hate its playerbase the way that "serious and hardcore" MMOGs do"

      Login queues, server instability, extended downtime, mind numbing repetitive re-running of the same content over and over, mind numbing repetitive faction quests... lately I'm starting to think WoW does hate its playerbase, just in a different way.

      --
      Sometimes my arms bend back.
  4. Too Bad by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Too bad for them. I have been watching Vanguard with some anticipation. Although I dislike Microsoft OS and office products, I had no qualms with their gaming division.

    However, after my past experiences, I've vowed to never again play an SoE game. The fact that SoE has started to embrace real-world sales of in-game items just further cements this.

    It looks like I needn't worry about Vanguard any further, as I won't touch it with a 10' pole now. It's not worth getting attached to another MMORPG that, 2-3 years down the road, will end up as bad as EQ became (or EQ II always was).

    --
    It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    1. Re:Too Bad by Fricka · · Score: 3, Informative
      It sounds like SOE will be a vehicle for distribution, and not have influence over game design or rulesets. Vanguard will not be part of the Station Exchange; Sigil has repeatedly made clear they are opposed to the buying and selling of gold/accounts.

      Some quotes from Brad McQuaid on the Vanguard forums:

      "SoE cannot touch the gameplay.

      What we have done is become the publishers of our own game. We now have even more control and authority over Vanguard, how it is made, how it is designed, and how it is marketed than we ever had with Microsoft.

      I realize there are lots of different feelings about SOE and their games. But whatever those feelings, the fact of the matter is that they know operations and distribution. They will make sure our beta runs the way it needs to, that our game is widely marketed, and that our game is available all over, in all channels.

      That is SOE's role in this new partnership with them. Sigil remains Sigil, able to focus now moreso on what we do best -- design, implement, conduct betas, build community, and market."

      "Sigil retains their Vision on what Vanguard will be. SOE is helping to distribute and market the title.

      These are the key points:

      1. We found an incredible opportunity: the opportunity to purchase the publishing rights from Microsoft and become our own publisher.

      2. We now own both the IP (the intellectual property) of Vanguard and the publishing rights.

      3. This gives us more control and autonomy than we have ever had before. We are no longer just a developer.

      4. Microsoft was TOTALLY cool with this. They are still very happy about Vanguard and looking forward to it bolstering their Windows platform. Vanguard will be an XP game, but also a Vista game, offering both 32 bit and 64 bit clients. We will continue to work closely with them and with Vista's focus on entertainment/games/graphics, as well as online, Vanguard is key.

      5. SOE was TOTALLY cool with this. They are excited to have the people who designed and worked on the original EQ and EQ expansions provide a game for them. They need a game like Vanguard next year -- it gives them a variety of games from which players can choose from, or players can just play Vanguard.

      6. We continue to have total control over the game's design, how it is marketed, the community, customer service -- everything that is important to us and I think important to all of you.

      7. Things like running game servers, getting ads (that we design and/or approve) into magazines, getting boxes into stores, etc., all of which SOE is great at doing, they can do while we focus on finishing up the game and on beta.

      8. This also gives us more time to launch the game when it is truly ready.

      9. edit: Also, Vanguard will *NOT* be part of SOE's 'buy and sell items for real world money'. Our hard line position against this for a game like Vanguard remains as strong as ever.

      If there are any other concerns or questions about this -- that's what I'm here for. I know this is a big change and it takes a moment to wrap one's head around it, but bottom line is that it's the best thing for Vanguard, for Sigil, and for you, our future players."

      --
      ~Fricka
      OffLineTshirts.com
    2. Re:Too Bad by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you realize this or not, but Microsoft has started selling virtual items as well (on xbox 360's live).

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    3. Re:Too Bad by L7_ · · Score: 1

      his use of the 'totally cool' comments leaves me in complete certainty that this game will be 'totally cool'.

    4. Re:Too Bad by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      But that's not in an MMORPG, is it? In a regular game, I don't see "virtual items" as anything more than an expansion pack, ala The Sims.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:Too Bad by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      It sounds like SOE will be a vehicle for distribution, and not have influence over game design or rulesets. Vanguard will not be part of the Station Exchange; Sigil has repeatedly made clear they are opposed to the buying and selling of gold/accounts.

      Some quotes from Brad McQuaid on the Vanguard forums:

      "SoE cannot touch the gameplay.


      I don't recall the early days of EQ & 989 Studios, but I don't think EQ belonged to Sony when it started, either. Maybe someone could shed the light on that.

      Regardless, Vanguard is going to have to do even more to convince me to play that it did before, and it already had a steep uphill climb. (I've quit WoW and am looking for a new game, but my wife and all my friends still play WoW. I need to like Vanguard enough to campaign on their behalf at everyone else.)

      Getting me in the next beta = good way to do this, Sigil, hint hint. I need to know myself the paladin is a valid tank before I'll consider paying for the game.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    6. Re:Too Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dont think i'm violating any beta stuff, but after installing and sampling the 40 gig beta - the game has a long ways to go before its done. i wouldnt be surprised if MS wasn't happy to see this one go...

    7. Re:Too Bad by ThePiMan2003 · · Score: 1

      989 studios became verant interactive and then becam SOE it the same company just with a couple of name changes the same people were always in control.

  5. This is a Good Thing by jettoki · · Score: 5, Informative

    People have been overreacting to this all day, even though it's actually a boon for Vanguard.

    1) Sigil now has complete control over production, release, and funding -- they didn't before. (Microsoft was pushing for an earlier, unfinished release)

    2) Sigil now makes a greater profit from the game, as they now own the IP rights. Expansions will be released on THEIR schedule, not at SOE's.

    3) SOE will ONLY be handling marketing and technical support. They are probably the best in the business at both, even if they suck at developing.

    4) Sigil will provide in-game customer service; GMs will be Sigil employees and Guides will be part of a volunteer program.

    5) Any attempts on the part of SOE to bully Sigil will be considered breach of contract, and Sigil will move to a different datacenter. They have stated this in the face of so much 'player' opposition -- I really doubt anything is going to happen.

    In summary: The game belongs more to Sigil now than it ever has, and this partnership is going to benefit the game greatly. Brad and company have been very forthcoming and honest about this over at the Vanguard boards, and that's a trend that's going to continue.

    1. Re:This is a Good Thing by masklinn · · Score: 1

      1) Sigil now has complete control over production, release, and funding -- they didn't before. (Microsoft was pushing for an earlier, unfinished release)

      Until SoE takes that over in 2 or 3 years

      2) Sigil now makes a greater profit from the game, as they now own the IP rights. Expansions will be released on THEIR schedule, not at SOE's.

      Until SoE takes that over in 2 or 3 years

      4) Sigil will provide in-game customer service; GMs will be Sigil employees and Guides will be part of a volunteer program.

      Until SoE takes that over in 2 or 3 years

      5) Any attempts on the part of SOE to bully Sigil will be considered breach of contract, and Sigil will move to a different datacenter. They have stated this in the face of so much 'player' opposition -- I really doubt anything is going to happen.

      Why bully? they'll just buy it and take over.

      --
      "The way we can tell it's C# instead of Haskell is because it's nine lines instead of two." -- wadler
    2. Re:This is a Good Thing by jettoki · · Score: 1

      Brad has already explained that he has no plans to sell to SOE. That's what led to his original corporate promotion and his eventual decision to leave and start up Sigil. He would be throwing away years of his career to sell, so I really think you should give him more credit than that.

    3. Re:This is a Good Thing by Usekh · · Score: 0

      I can see you haven't dealt with SoE tech support lately, or at any time.

    4. Re:This is a Good Thing by jettoki · · Score: 1

      Or maybe I have for the last 6 years, and it's far superior to every comparable company on the market.

      I'm glad to see everyone at Slashdot is so rational about these things.

    5. Re:This is a Good Thing by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Are you sure he wouldn't be cashing in on years of his career?

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    6. Re:This is a Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SoE can only take it over if Sigil lets them. Sigil knows better than that.

    7. Re:This is a Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really doubt anything is going to happen

      You won't a year from now.

    8. Re:This is a Good Thing by Usekh · · Score: 0

      And in this magical world you live in we live on lollypop lane with chocolate houses? Aside from that above I was entirely rational. They are awfull to deal with on all levels.

    9. Re:This is a Good Thing by andy_win · · Score: 1

      I'm agreed on this, while I can't forgive SOE for their development choices on SWG, it can't be denied they run the hardware well, their uptime and latency are both great. It's quite a relief to myself, as I like the look of Vanguard, and the direction Sigil want to take it. This move means they have if anything, more control over the direction, but get the bonus of a company handling the behind-the-scenes work who have a lot more experience in managing the server structure for a MMO.

    10. Re:This is a Good Thing by stinkbomb · · Score: 1

      Riiiiiight. And I've a slightly used bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

  6. owned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Guess all those who said they were gonna wait for Vanguard because they hate SOE got owned

    http://tinypic.com/ilzxx4.jpg

  7. Vanguard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My take on this is that Microsoft's "different vision" was something like "this game is crap." However, their agreement lets Sigil save face. You can be pretty certain that Microsoft wouldn't simply let a great potential game escape its grasp...so fill in the blanks.

  8. Good news for me by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1
    As one of the last adults on this planet not to have a credit card I welcome this. SOE seems to be one of the few companies in the world that realises NOT everyone in the world has a credit cards. In fact in some remote backwards part of the world not having a credit card is the norm.

    Yes I have heard that SOE keeps billing CC accounts after you stopped your account but I never had problems with them. Finally a MMO I can pay for with my bank account.

    I just hope they keep smedley far removed. Let him handle the billing. That he does well.

    They killed EQ2, I liked it but a patch that increased running speed also increased the running animation. It looked like a Charlie Chaplin movie. I can live with bugs, unbalacing and whatever but I got to look at that running animation every second of gameplay. Get it right.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Good news for me by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      I've seen prepaid cards both from WoW and NC Soft, together with SOE that should be the majority of the market so by now support for non-CC payment is pretty much standard.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    2. Re:Good news for me by snuf23 · · Score: 1

      "They killed EQ2, I liked it but a patch that increased running speed also increased the running animation. It looked like a Charlie Chaplin movie."

      Wow. No complaints about nerfing or bugs or the usual stuff. Just didn't like the run animation.
      Oh well I guess not being able to jump over a one inch obstacle killed Guild Wars for me.
      Each to his own.

      --
      Sometimes my arms bend back.
  9. I'm actually pretty excited by everphilski · · Score: 1

    ... while you may no longer be a fan of EQ or EQ2 I'm pretty psyched that this is in the hands of SOE. They are too, probably because they are "old friends", many being members of the original EQ dev team.

    I'm excited because SOE is handling the backend work - servers and billing. SOE has a lot of experiance managing this, Microsoft does not. MMO's are not just another internet service, as WoW found out their opening day (4 main servers were out for 4 days...). SOE has what, 7 years of experiance now? They have good server uptime (yes, I still play EQ) and their billing methods are good, game cards and being able to purchse expansions online are a great concept. And I'm excited that I can play vanguard on Station Pass :P save a little money every month.

    So with that experiance under their belt and looking back at the past I'm glad SOE will be managing the backend to Vanguard. Elated, actually. Puts me one step closer to playing :P

  10. They exist but are hard to get as they are not commenly stocked. WoW cards are available but blizzard is evil. Europe was not allowed in the beta, was not given the option of a free trial, and you can't play on american servers meaning I can't play with people I know (from the web, irc and other MMO's).

    You also mention 2 companies of well over a dozen MMO companies out there.

    Anyway pre-paid cards are very expensive for what they offer. Why is it so hard to simply follow Sony's lead and get a third party to handle all non-cc banking? That is what they are therefore.

    I recently noticed that Lik-sang (hong-kong internet store) had opened a german "division" just so it could do better business in europe. It ain't that hard, if SOE can do it, anyone can. Just as soon as people stop thinking, everyone got a credit card.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Yup by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      NC Soft is a pretty large publisher so they cover a large number of MMOs with their prepaid cards. I don't think I've seen any MMO that's not covered by SOE, NC Soft or Blizzard in stores during the last few months. So the ones with non-CC payment models are in the majority ergo we can put "non-CC payment" on our list of reasonable demands.

      Are the prepaid cards really more expensive than the standard subscription price?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
  11. Station Exchange is not on all servers by snuf23 · · Score: 1

    "the fact that SoE has started to embrace real-world sales of in-game items just further cements this."

    Station Exchange auctions are only on SPECIFIC EQ2 servers. If you don't want to buy/sell items and gold for real money play on the normal servers. In fact there are only 3 Station Exchange servers and they are prominantly labelled as such in the character creation screen. Playing on a normal server means no selling of items, accounts or gold except through the usual grey market (ige.com, ebay etc.) EXACTLY the SAME as WoW or any other MMO which prohibits this behavior.
    Arguably it's a better because people who want to spend real money for virtual items have a server to go and do it on. Meanwhile I can play on a normal server and not have Station Exchange affect my play at all.

    --
    Sometimes my arms bend back.
  12. Welcome to the Twilight Zone by Somatic · · Score: 1
    A reference thread, with answers from McQuaid: http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?t =51405

    All of this is very reassuring, and sounds reasonable. But the way it's being presented by Sigil sounds too good to be true. I'm not saying that it's not completely true, I'm just saying that I've read thousands of press releases from MMOG developers before, and when something sounds too good to be true, it makes me nervous.

    Now that we're done with the reasonable reactions, can I give my gut reaction? Ready? Plug your ears:

    WHAT IN THE BLOODY SIXTH CIRCLE OF A CRAWLING, UNIMAGINABLE HELL HAPPENED?

    What happened to all of those thinly veiled (and not so thinly veiled) comments from Mr. McQuaid about SOE? The constant, subtle (and not so subtle) implications that yes, SOE is the devil, and yes, SOE did ruin their game? The winks and nods? The soft caresses?

    No matter what, being associated with SOE is a black eye for them. For years, the company and game have been basically sold to the players with one statement: we're not with SOE. It's not an exaggeration to say that a lot of their fanbase exists because of that one fact.

    I don't think they're going to lose all of those people, or even many of them, but what they will lose is the trust of many of them. This is bad because the game is already being directed at a narrow audience. The audience is narrow for a hundred reasons, some key ones being: a) it's a subscription game, b) it claims to be a return to the unforgiving game mechanics of old, c) many people will have to upgrade their hardware to play it.

    To upgrade your computer for a single game takes faith, and faith is what they're losing with this move.

    --
    My script don't crash! She crashes, you crashed her!