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Electric Companies Get Involved With Broadband
Billosaur writes "The Marketplace Morning Report on NPR has an interesting piece on how electric companies are getting into the high-speed Internet business with 'Broadband over Power Lines', or BPL." From the article: "By purchasing the right equipment power companies can quickly offer Internet service to millions of new customers. There are several pilot projects being launched in the US, including one in the Pittsburgh suburb of Monroeville. That service is being offered by Duquesne Broadband -- a spinout of the local power company.'"
Sure the technology to be able to do this well keeps improving... I'm kinda getting sick of hearing about this and fiber to the curb every few months when it is no closer to wide scale roll out than it was 10 years ago when I first started hearing such ideas.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have both, but please... quit trying to get my hopes up!
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
Is finally being used by electric companies. How novel.
The power line wasn't a giant freaking unshielded antenna! This tehcnology has been effecting communications gear all over the place. Its a very very bad idea in its current form.
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/
Where I live (Burlington, VT) the city provides both electricity and fiber optic service. It's Interesting that it was more practical to run new fiber optics throughout the city than to use existing power lines, since the city already owns the electric department.
Bradley Holt
Previous discussion of broadband over powerlines that I've read discussed it as an alternative to wireless or wiring your home...really small networks that then plug into a traditional connection. I'm curious how you would handle multiple users on one line. You're not just running half a dozen or so connections into a hub and multiplexing the signals. The power grid is huge! Along those lines, what about capacitance and interference? Wouldn't those kill the range?
BPL advocates will tell you that it's not fttp. And it's not going to be at cable speeds for a long while, but has lots of possibilities.
But here are the salient positive points:
1) these guys are by their nature, net-neutral and while they're utilities, they don't live behind ancient telco models
2) reliability is a serious culture within the power community; these guys have trucks and know how to use them
3) the electrical utilities have the largest amount of unused communications easements and right-of-ways in the USA
4) the utilities in the EU are riding this wave quickly; they go everywhere, while the old tired fat ex-PTTs slumber
5) more competition keeps the telco and cable companies honest. We need alternatives.
So, I say: party on, BPL!
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
Most power companies are required to buy extra electriciy if you generate more power for the grid than you consume. This usually only applies to folks with solar panels and other sources of power that end up contributing to the grid. They get to watch their power meters run backwards!
I wonder if the same principle could be applied to net data flows! I would love to be paid by the power company for massive file sharing since I would be contributing more to the 'net than I consume.
This one gang kept wanting me to join cause I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
...in the boots of the telcos and cable companies. If broadband over the power grid were technically and economically doable, it eliminates the need for telcos if you have voip and for cable with a big enough pipe.
Using the best knowledge of today to create the problems of tomorrow.
Before this can be rolled out, the power companies will want to run a massive national smear campaign against ham radio operators, you know, just to make sure no-one listens to them when they complain about interference.
This sig, aah-ah, is comin' like a ghost-sig...
in the latest QST http://www.arrl.org/qst/ about the FCC ignoring amateur radio ongoing complaints about BPL system interference.k .pdf
new BPL complaint here: http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2006/05/05/100/
system operator response here:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/files/COMTe
"What is coax but insulated copper conductor. With Edison's DC delivery methods, tried and proven over a hundred years ago, a single conductor with ground return has always been feasible. Now we will free you from the greedy power companies and their unfair monopolies one and for all. Bwahahaha!"
The combined telcos have scheduled a news-conference for later this afternoon.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
I could tell you, but someone already did. In fact they put it in a nice format,and the submitter even made it so you only have to click a link.
WTF do you want, someone to read it to you?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
That's shocking!
BPL is one of those things which sounds good or at least interesting
at the start, but the deeper you go the less decent it gets.
The problem boils down to the fact that a BPL system emits RF (radio
frequency) energy, causing interference to entities that use those
frequencies. The FCC has been put into an interesting spot here, as
they realize that the problems generated by it are real, but are also
being pushed by the Bush administration to move forward on this.
Ham radio operators are definitely negatively affected by this. Hams
by their nature deal with "weak signals", which the noise generated
by BPL tends to clobber, making many of the "shortwave" (ie, below
30MHz) bands less than useful.
If you care to see a pretty good response to this go to www.arrl.org
and look for BPL.
This is a real horror for hams. Least anyone think that ham radio
is out of date in this era of advanced technology, talk with officials
down south who dealt with Katrina, or in Neq York City on September 11th.
BPL pits big money interests against litterally amateurs, with the latter
group figting back, and being at least partly successful, in getting
the FCC to deal/recognize interference complaints, and getting these
systems cleaner.
What will happen, I cannot say. But I look to systems in Europe
and Asia where broadband exists and doesn't use BPL, and see systems
which offer far better service.
--STeve Andre'
amateur callsign WB8WSF
I realize that a power company would be smart enough to be aware of this and likely provide filters to strip that out for folks who use the service, but how are they going to filter the crap out for those who don't have a data box at their house to strip the signal, and how much would it cost? More importantly, wil lthat cost be an enforced one?
Either way I really don't like the idea at all, even if I never use the thing.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
No, they're just steam-rollering ahead realizing that they have far, far more potential customers to reach than hobbyists (valuable hobbyists, but hobbyists nonetheless) to put out.
I'd personally like the FCC to put an axe in this idea, but it's never going to happen. Once they get enough of a userbase, it'll be impossible to shut them down politically. Ham radio will just die and the public simply won't know what they've lost because they don't use it themselves.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I doubt they even solved any of the original problems they brought to the table eons ago! The idea is that every OUTLET could have internet access. Everyone who has an existing electricity feed could get internet access (imagine third world countries, etc). You'll notice that the article says that without a "smart grid" it won't work in rural areas. A good chunk of the world is rural...
Might as well invent a square wheel while they're at it.One of the problems with a website like Slashdot is that its editors aren't reliable for perspective on presentation of stories with a history, both in the world and in the site's coverage. BPL has been covered on Slashdot several times, as the electric companies have evolved their business proposition and dealt with technical, economic and political problems. But the story presented here "introduces" BPL without any of that perspective. The new Slashdot story/style presentations do better, at least eliminating pure duplicates, but the nanothin editorial depth leaves out the context that is part of the story, both on Slashdot and in the world. Consider this BPL story, and others, with an itchy google finger.
--
make install -not war
completely diffrent hardware and wires.. this type of hardware was desigend to be used in conjunctions with AC power at mid voltages and high current
telco's are set up for mid-low coltages and low current DC..
that and there switching equipment would never work with somethign like this.. they would have to replace everything..
when you look at power and signal detla on AC it doesn't care if it goes through a transformer or two the delta is still proportonal to the average voltage..
it would just make no sence to use it on phone lines
'...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
"quickly offer Internet service to millions of new customers" they say.
This is not true. They can't run the service over high voltage lines.
They have to fiber out to medium voltage (7,200 volts) lines and then offload from fiber ($$) to the unshielded lines.
The lines may be 7,200 volts, but to comply with section 15 the data is transmitted somewhere closer to 1 volt.
Emergency frequencies tend to be low because the low attenuation rate allows for greater travel. BPL being sent at 1 volt attenuates quickly so their workaround is to use EMRGENCY FREQUENCIES to transmit data on the power lines.
Even at 1 volt it is enough to disturb radio and emergency communications because med voltage power lines are basically a big antenna.
The problem with being only about 1 volt is that the signal must be cleaned and re-amplified every few hundred feed (more equipment, $).
medium voltage lines are stepped down to 240 volt drops to peoples homes but the data could not survive this. The result is the need for a CT coupler (yes, more $) to bypass the transformer and again reinsert the signal onto the shielded line.
When all is said and done you have a service that is expensive enough to run that it will no be a rural broadband solution.
At best it will be available to areas that already have a choice between Cable, DSL, Fiber, and soon WiMAX.
For the high maintenance costs of keeping BPL signal leakage from PBL deployments you could just run fiber right to the home.
Also, BPL maintenance and inline equipment = network (read Power) outages.
Besides, internet access is a very step for power companies. By the time they establish data centers, mail platforms etc. there will be a slew of better alternatives that won't cause power outages.
Maybe they should instead focus on providing reliable power service or clean energy.
As for the latest "We can monitor equipment with it" they already have technology in place to do that that. It is simply their latest ploy to get people to sign off on their raping the radio spectrum.
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
Before this turns into Little America, Take A Stand! Do NOT tolerate this abberation of technology, this bastard-child of economics and rhetoric! You want service for your dollar, not prosaic verbiage! Or just chill, and let it be. Lemme tell you a story.... LOL.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: BPL is Internet Fools Gold. The power companies are going to keep pouring money in to this until PONS gets so far ahead of what's theoretically possible with BPL that they finally give up.
Every power line is an antenna, fouling nearby radio with signals placed on it and absorbing signals from nearby radio and noise. Every transformer is a barrier that requires a rugged powered device to bridge the Internet signal for those four housholds. These are fundamental constraints to which no reasonable engineer expects to find a solution.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.