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Advice for Linux on a Laptop?
Trillian_1138 is seeking your advice on the following: "So I'm looking at replacing my aging laptop. I have a desktop running Ubuntu, which I use as a primary, and it is more than adequate for my needs. However, I'd love a small, portable laptop to use in class and on trips. I've been looking at the MacBook Pros and, more recently, the MacBooks, and was almost ready to buy the low-end MacBook and be done with it. I liked its ability to dual-book to Windows for a couple of school-related programs, but the more I thought about it the more I like using Ubuntu at home and the less reason I saw to buy a Mac if I could use Ubuntu on a laptop. This brought me to the idea of buying a laptop to use as a dual-boot Linux/Window machine, either with Linux or Windows pre-installed, and setting up a dual-boot with the other OS. Might any of you have advice, anecdotes, success stories, horror stories, or general input?"
"Please note I am not looking for a discussion on whether Linux is 'Ready for the Desktop'. I switched over to Ubuntu earlier this year and haven't looked back. As far as I'm concerned, Linux is ready for *my* desktop, which is all I really care about. This laptop is for me, not my mom. I'm not a command-line guru by any means and likes having a nice GUI, but am comfortable Googling when my DVDs stop playing after an update or poking around in configuration files to get things working. What I'm now curious about is what to expect - positive and negative - with Linux on a laptop.
I know a quick Google search yields lots of information on laptops running Linux, and I am continuing to use Google to look at information on running Linux on laptops which came with Windows, buying OS-less laptops, and buying laptops with Linux pre-installed, but I'm curious what the Slashdot crowd thinks. Is it even worth the bother? Would I be better off buying a Dell and installing Linux or buying a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed from somewhere like system76.com or Linuxcertified.com?"
I know a quick Google search yields lots of information on laptops running Linux, and I am continuing to use Google to look at information on running Linux on laptops which came with Windows, buying OS-less laptops, and buying laptops with Linux pre-installed, but I'm curious what the Slashdot crowd thinks. Is it even worth the bother? Would I be better off buying a Dell and installing Linux or buying a laptop with Ubuntu pre-installed from somewhere like system76.com or Linuxcertified.com?"
Advice: MAKE SURE you get a wifi card compatible with linux. I got lucky with the intel 2200; at first it had no support, now its in the kernel :)
avoid ati mobiles gpu's
if you need good 3d performance go for nvidia
if 3d gaming is not what you need go for intel integrated graphics as they
have released their drivers opensource iirc and it's in the kernel as we speak
I've done many dual boot laptops, but the last laptop I bought I wasn't in the mood for jumping through all of the hoops (especially wireless drivers).
On a whim I downloaded the vmware virtual machine software, and in less than an hour had a fully functional full color, wireless working, all peripherals working, full Xserver resolution laptop. It was WONDERFUL. And worth every penny!
What started out as an experiment for another way yielded other unexpected benefits. Suddenly I could run a fully loaded linux in the vmware server, and communicate with it from XP! Suddenly what used to require two machines I was able to do on the one.
Some of the configuration required some good indepth linux knowledge and a few google visits. If you can tweak, it's worth the investment.
Good luck. (And feel free to send e-mail if you have specific questions, I'll gladly fill you in on some of the tweaks)
ACPI - For battery life (It's getting better, but there are some units which still have problems)
Wifi - Both card and encryption mechanism. (Again, this is getting better and WPA support is becomming well integrated)
Graphics - Mobile Nvidia usually has better support then ATI.
Function Keys - There is fairly good toshiba support for function keys, but it's always nice to have the LCD bright/dim, mouse lock, etc. work correctly.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
A lot of elitists loved the IBM ThinkPad T-series (particularly those with a "p" after the model name). Even with Lenovo's recent purchase of them, the laptops have remained solid hardware for Linux. I have run both Ubuntu and Gentoo on them. See ThinkWiki for some good information on running Linux on the whole ThinkPad line.
There are other good notebooks which can often be just as good. Just figure out what hardware you want to run and how much you're willing to pay for it. If you are tech-savy, install it yourself (sadly, you'll probably have to pay the Windows tax (though you may find some bare notebooks, sales on a win32 laptop will often be cheaper than a notebook with no software)). If not, get it from LinuxCertified.
If you don't get something mainstream, be sure to try a LiveCD in it first & dig up as much dirt on it as possible.
Buying a laptop with Linux installed on it is like buying a car with the engine already.... no wait. Buying a laptop pre-installed is like buying a house with the furniture already.... damn.
What I'm trying to say is, there's something about linux that just lends itself to a self-initiated install. You'll have an easier time of it if you have to go through the grunt work on your own. You'll know where things are, what you changed, and you get a better pick of distros than you will probably find pre-installed.
This coming from a Debian-addict. I haven't looked at Ubuntu yet. I go vanilla Debian and add what I need for the machine I am using. I also still use windows on the desktop, but all the servers I operate run Linux. I go for flexibility. Yeah, you could use Wine or VMware as someone already mentioned, but what else am I going to do with that Windows license that came with my laptop?
-- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
I've had great luck running Linux on Thinkpads. The models I've used over the years are: Thinkpad 600, Thinkpad R32, and (currently) Thinkpad T42. The R-series is the "cheap" line of Thinkpads, and I'd recommend paying the extra money for a T-series. My R32 was glitchy with suspend, even after sending it in for repairs.
The only real trouble area for me is being able to effectively use dual monitors (the laptop LCD + an external VGA). It's easy to set up dual monitors, but not so easy (not so possible?) to have your desktop be aware of when you disconnect the external VGA monitor (to, say, go to the coffee house) and know not to pop up new windows on the screen that's not there anymore. This is an area that Windows does a lot better in, and as far as I know this is an issue with running Linux on most laptops.
IBM has recently sold their Thinkpad line of laptops to Lenovo, and I'd be rather cautious about these new Lenovo-produced notebooks. Not because Lenovo is a Chinese company, but because it seems that in many acquisitions quality goes down as the new company discovers corners to cut. The Lenovo Thinkpads may be great for all I know, though.
Another poster commented negatively on Thinkpads and Linux, but I think he was looking at it from a "what OS to run on your notebook" point of view, and not a "what's the best notebook for Linux" point of view. If your work requires Linux, like mine does, I'd definitely look into a Thinkpad.
I'd be very interested in hearing about Linux compatibility with MacBook hardware. If Thinkpads start to suck, I'll probably take a serious look at MacBooks.
I boot it with Knoppix Live CD
Better yet, a live Knoppix DVD.
Unless, of course, you're a perfectionist that you believe Linux must be installed natively, but I beg you try it and examine its features before judging it. There's no harm in trying.
And you'd find it surprisingly featureful.
Here's where I'm at so far, and what I'm still working on
-Used PartitionMagic to create ext3, linuxswap, and fat32 partitions prior to ubuntu installation (get it OEM v.8.0 for $20 off PriceGrabber.com)
Out-of-the-box:
The screen brighten/dim function keys work
Touchpad works
Everything else, except what's noted in last section
Used info in the Ubuntu forums to set up the following
-fglrx driver for 3D acceleration with my ATI card
-wpa_supplicant for WPA encryption
-ipw driver for intel wireless
Future projects: (free-time dependent)
-built-in SD card reader does not work yet
-after installing the ATI driver, suspend-to-disk crashes on resume
-suspend-to-RAM crashes on resume 1/3 of time
-external monitor port doesn't work w/ projector
I'm really happy with it so far - the few remaining challenges will only give me an opportunity to learn Linux better.
Weird you should say that.
My Dell Latitude D600 is perfectly happy dual booting XP and Linux. Currently SuSE 10 and everything just works. Have had Ubuntu, Debian (Sarge and Etch), and Fedora on it at some point. Fedora works fine, but I didn't care for it. Ubuntu worked well but had issues with the Intel a/b/g card. Debian was great when it was great, a lot of work when it wasn't depending where I was in the sarge/sid the etch/sid cycle. Debian always hated my docking station as well. The current SuSE 10 install is pretty much flawless. The only thing not working is my Sony Erricson GPRS/EDGE/WiFi card and that is due entirely to my being to lazy to go look it up, and therefore haven't even plugged it in booted to Linux.
My laptop is my primary computer, for work and personal so it has to be stable and useful. I currently run about 60/40 booted to XP/Linux. For dev work both are needed and for network audits linux is a requirement. Gaming, Visio, and our ground system require windows. Between OO and picking up a copy of crossover everything else works fine whichever way I happen to boot.
Some things to watch out for that bit me here and there. Remember that with the Dell utility partition and XP installed you only have two primary partitions left and plan accordingly. What several people have said about a FAT32 partition is critical if you want to actually use you data. Watch which WiFI card you get. The Intels are the best bet. If you don't need triband, then the b/g units seem to work on more setups.
Sig? What if I prefer Glock?
my advice is as follows. know that i have 4 laptops running linux and have been through just about every issue out there.
first,
avoid GPUs for power management. i have a radeon x1400 in one laptop but when i use accelerated drivers my power management doesn't work. if you want a laptop to just work get an inbuilt intel chipset. neither the ati or nvidia GPU have good power management in linux at this point.
know that your disk drive will be slow and choose packages and distros carefully based on the hardware specs. I use (k)ubuntu and am up-to-date with dapper6.06 and everything works very well on my dell 600m. suspend to ram works well and hibernate works well also, both with some tweeking.
wifi is quite easy now. many devices have inbuilt drivers in modern kernels or can use ndiswrapper and the windows drivers. configuring wireless networks has not gotten as easy as windows on all distros but in *ubuntu it is quite easy. 'network manager' programs makes it EASIER than windows in my opinion.
most newer laptops are linux compatible as far as the other hardware. i have 2 machines with memory card slots and they work well, also pcmcia devices work very well as long as the device is supported.
really, you should have no problems if you buy the right hardware.
i know that:
dell 600m
dell e1505
compaq m2000
emachines/averatek m5105
all work well. the m2000 does not like suspend to ram though.
good luck
thousands of first hand experiences, sorted by laptop make/model and distro.
It has some very specific info on getting certain things like touchpads etc to work on some models that could save you HOURS of searching.
http://www.linux-laptop.net/
best of luck.
I've used Thinkpads since 1997 or so. They are well designed tanks. If you do a lot of text input, you will want the joystick mouse control. Touch pads, drive me bats now. Over the years, they have gotten a little less sturdy but they are still very good. My favorite is still a 600 for it's small size and reliability. My current model is a poorly kept T23, which I did not buy from Certified Used. Power management works flawlessly on all models, with some tweaking - usually as simple as turning off ACPI and using APM for sleep.
The only strenuous advice I have is to avoid "desktop replacement" pigs. All computers look "obsolete" in a few years. The small difference in performance between small, cute laptops does not justify the extra weight. You might think it does today, but two or three years from now, when clock speeds have doubled again, you won't. As an extreme example consider two 10 year old laptops, a 560 and a 380 thinkpad. Today, the 560, is still cute but a technically superior 380 is an ugly brick. At the time, the 380 was 50% faster and had twice the memory and a much better screen. The screen is still better, but the fan is loud, the case is huge, the 16MB of RAM is laughable and it's just too heavy. Unless your hands are unusually large, consider an X series.
Avoid high school castoffs and other poorly handled and maintained notebooks. Screws should be replaced every time because they depend on a nylon coating to work. When you take them out, you mess that coat up and things get loose. Really badly maintained models will have missing screws and broken structural parts. They are not reliable and you might have to boot them daily like a Windoze machine. Yes, that's the worst I've ever seen in a Thinkpad. Lesser computers might not boot at all after such bad treatment.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
EmperorLinux specializes in configuring Linux laptops. And, they maintain a good stock of IBM's.
Their markup is a little high, but their support is excellent.
I haven't purchased from them, yet. But, I bought a support agreement and a depot install from them. I shipped them a latop, and they shipped it back with a fully configured Redhat. Very nice, very easy.
D.
PS - No, I do not work for them, and no they are not friends of mine.
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Look for something 2 years old and then research that laptop. It's rare to find a new machine that will run Linux seamlessly. At the 1 year mark a lot of major issues have often been solved by early adopters and at the 2 year mark it's as fully functional as it will get for that machine.
For each of my active projects, I clone a new virtual machine (or machines in the case of servcer projects). I never have to worry about one customer's configuration or third party tools corrupting the environment of another. I keep all my business critical applications running on linux (e-mail, web, IM, Word Processing, Spreadsheet).
And, when my development environment crashes Windows, I just restart the VMWare session. When, updates are suddenly required that need a reboot, I reboot the session. If some really long process has to run (like Windows Update or a software install), I start a new session with a different project and use my spare time effectively.
But, by far the most amazing use of that environment is the ability to start a windows server in one session, and clients in a few other sessions. And, test all the interactions without having sever computers set up. In fact, I was able to do some stress testing of my server, with 4 mixed operating system clients, while on the airplane!
D.
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I've got a HP NX8220 work laptop which I dual boot with Ubuntu. As far as I've noticed literally everything worked straight out of the install with Dapper - I even installed using Wifi. This includes sleeping and the additional buttons (mute etc.). I'd read the HP had been working with Ubuntu to make things work well with their laptops and my personal experience is very positive.
Andrew.
sony vaio u101 (discontinued, import)
everything works out of the box(even rare
things like suspend and temp sensor) hardware
feels like it was meant to run linux,
including things like 3d accel, screen
brightness (better control than windows)
temp sensor, etc. this is my main laptop.
apple ibook g4 1.25ghz
also runs ubuntu, power management works,
but its not as nice. 3d does work. mostly
run it in os x for when i need a mac at
work, i like the u101 better.
fujitsu p2120
runs fine, couldnt suspend then, probably
can now. everything else works, but that
transmeta chip is slow...
thinkpad A21p ran ubuntu fine, everything worked.
compaq m700 everything worked out of the box in
debian, so ubuntu should be no prob.
the only things to watch out for are acpi (make sure
it can suspend if you care about that) and the wifi card,
unless you want to use a pc-card slot. ubuntu is
good about hardware support.
usually laptops are easier than desktops to run nix on
or at least look up. look up linux laptop sellers and
linux friendly ones ( http://powernotebooks.com/
http://www.emperorlinux.com/ etc) along with all the
sites dedicated to linux laptops. also good to check
bsd sites and see if anyone on #ubuntu is using / looking
at a laptop your interested in.
if you just need windows for a couple school apps,
you might want to use qemu or vmware(player and
server are free) qemus performance isnt bad with
virtualization, but you cant like watch movies
in it and stuff like with vmware. but anyway,
its pretty easy to manage a 3 gig win2k partition
and maybe a backup or two, or just run it in snap
shot mode with another virtual disk for data or
just using the included samba (both qemu and
vmware have this) on a host only network so
windows doesnt get exposed at all.
I bought a T-42p from EmperorLinux last fall with Ubuntu Breezy installed. Some things worked pretty well, like the wireless, but they didn't have a 3D driver for the ATI Fire GL card that supports suspend and hibernate. I have to reboot my machine everytime I need 3D hardware accelaration or use the non 3D accelarated driver.
Some things that came broken:
They have a 30-day money back garantee, so I suggest you try everything out right away. If something doesn't work you should ship it back, because it isn't likely that it will get fixed remotely unless you bug them to death.
After months of fiddling I almost have everything working as I want, but I shouldn't have to spend this much time when I paid a premium for Emperor to do it for me. If I had the opportunity to do it again, I would have waited for the MacBook Pro. It would have been a lot cheaper in terms of support and my time.