US Government Fears China Bugs Lenovo PCs

An anonymous reader writes "After approving the sale of IBM's PC Division to the Chinese Corporation Lenovo, the US Government has realized China could bug Lenovo PCs destined for US Government customers. Would the US have done the same to China? With American businesses so eager for business in China no matter what, where are we headed?"

Comments

Security or economics?

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

While I have no doubt that the US & China spy on each other constantly:

But after angry objections from the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, a bipartisan panel of experts appointed by Congress, the department opted this week to pull the computers from the network. [emph mine]

I really do have to ask. Is the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission really unaware that the vast majority of PCs (including Apple, dell, hp, gateway, etc) are manufactured (or at least part manufactured) in China?

I find it hard to believe that they don't, so this punishment is not for the computers being manufactured in China, rather for the company not being US owned anymore. In other words, it's fine for the Chinese to do the manufacturing, but it has to be Americans making the real money (and again, this sort of chauvinism is pretty common & not unexpected, but it would be nice for the US to be a little more honest about its motivations).

Re:Security or economics?

[Carewolf]

Americans have a hard time adjusting to the fact that the computer world doesn't revolve around them anymore. It's a general problem right now that American companies will not buy software and hardware from companies not perceived to be American.
In many ways it's just like the automobile industry in the 70's and 80's

Bugged, you say?

[gowen]

My computer's bugged. It keeps regurgitating the same information over and over again.

You better believe they'd do it ...

[vandan]

It's not like the US government has exactly been leading the way on demonstrating restraint with respect to bugging.
They bug everyone calling into and out of the US. They keep aggregate data for the purpose of dragnetting the stuff later for evidence of links to terrorism.
They even bug members of the United Nations ( not that I have a great deal of respect for them, but still ... at least most other people do ).
Why wouldn't they bug China. And yes, why wouldn't China bug the US.
It's an insane system. A paranoid, power-hungry system.

Re:You better believe they'd do it ...

[strider44]

I think that bugging everything that is used by a foreign government (even allied governments) is bugged and that's just something that happens, almost as if it's expected. The following is from a friend of a friend of a family member so expect it to be exaggerated or possibly wrong (though I don't think it is), but apparently every piece of military hardware imported from America here to Australia is striped and taken apart and thoroughly checked for tracking devices and bugs, and they're routinely found. This is one of the closest allies in the "War on Terror".

Re:*sigh*

[gedeco]

Yep,

But soon this will be over.
The new lenovo pc will automagicly connect through the great firewall of China and deliver the chinese the coordinates to nuke slashdot dupe posters.

Just making the internet a safer place :)

Tin foil time!

[madnuke]

Wrap your laptop in foil, it will protect it from Chinese bugs and boost your wifi signal by 40%!

Yes

[Samir Gupta]

The USA did it to China indeed.

and now that I think about it...

[macadamia_harold]

what's with all the speculation? With their domestic spying program, wouldn't the NSA know whether the PCs were "phoning home"?

US, welcome to the rest of the world...

[danro]

China may bug US government PCs?
Welcome to the rest of the world!
Everyone else has to keep the same thing in mind when they use Windows in government and industry.

Aw, these Americans...

[liangzai]

They say they want free trade, but they won't buy IBM PCs after China bought the brand (no other difference).

They say they want democracy in the Middle East, but when there is democracy in the Middle East, they don't respect the outcome (Hamas).

They say other nations should respect human rights, but they themselves don't (Gitmo, torture flights, numerous examples).

Anyone still wonder why the rest of the world spits on America?

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[devnull17]

For the record, the whole world spits on China, too.

America may be a mess, but it's not like China is a shining example of how to run a country. Your country sucks just as much as mine, and probably more so.

At least I can say America is a mess without worrying about a knock on my door from the thought police. America may be poorly mistreating those captured on the war on terror, but at least we don't have "strike hard" campaigns where our own citizens are sentenced to death in stadiums and executed minutes later. And there may be much class inequality in America, but from what I understand, it's the same in China (and everywhere else). At least our system is supposed to work that way. We may have sided with some real bastards in the Middle East in the early 1980's, but China's the one blocking action against everyone's favorite nascent nuclear theocracy in the UN Security Council.

America has been at the forefront of innovation for centuries, while China is poised to become an economic superpower simply by virtue of its huge numbers of people, importing Western ingenuity and cranking out cheap imitations. But I guess someone has to make our Happy Meal toys. :)

So seriously, shut the fuck up, Chinese guy. You have no right to talk.

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[Eivind]

Agreed. Neither foreign policy, not human rigths is something China should be proud of.

But here's the thing -- noone acts as if China are doing particularily well in these areas, neither do China currently act as "world police", waving the banner of freedom and democracy, and claiming to be chief protector of those values.

For that matter, China doesn't even particularily seem to care if other countries ignore human rigths.

When you go out in the world, invade other countries, wave the banner of freedom and democracy around, it is to be excepected that people will be bothered by this "image" and see it as fake when they're confronted by stuff like Gitmo.

There are (lots of!) places worse than Gitmo in China, no doubt about it.

But the thing is, like you say, US citizens are free to protest Gitmo. They're even free to toss out those politicians responsible for trampling americas reputation in the mud. Yet they do not. To me that's a mystery.

Most americans I know are *proud* of their freedoms. Consider human rigths *important*. Want the world to have more freedom and less torture, less inhumane punishments, less repression, less people in jail without a fair trial. That's why I don't understand why you tolerate such abuses from your own government.

At last: "We may be bad, but atleast we're better than China" is true. But it makes you wonder, doesn't it ? If you have to compare yourself to *China* to come out the winner, just how deeply have you sunk ?

Sure, you're not alone in refusing to sign the convention on childrens rigths, you share that honor with Somalia. That give a warm cuddly feeling ?

The thing is, I don't get it. I'm absolutely positive, if you where to read the declaration (available here) for the US public and ask if they're in favor or not, literally 95% (or more) would be in favor, and you're a democracy, so I don't understand why you don't demand your government gets with the program.

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[devnull17]

I'm totally ashamed of my government's actions. I can't think of a single good idea that's come out of Washington in the past five years. I'm a registered Democrat; I vote in every election, and I donate money to politicians in every election cycle. Short of armed revolt, I don't see what more I can do.

But hearing things like "the world spits on America" makes my blood boil. I love my country, and I'm proud of (most of) its history. Blaming all Americans for the poor decisions our government makes is no different than blaming all Muslims for the activities of al-Qaeda.

Karma Kablooiieee!

My thoughts exactly when I made my first post on this article.

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[Whiney Mac Fanboy]

I'm quite familiar with my country's history, TYVM.

No, you're not familiar with your countries history, if you were, you would not have said:

We may have sided with some real bastards in the Middle East in the early 1980's, but China's the one blocking action against everyone's favorite nascent nuclear theocracy in the UN Security Council.

When it is perfectly clear to most of the world, that America is still supporting some real bastards in the middle east (not to mention an illegal nuclear power).

Chances are you live in a country whose system of government is based on the one we first implemented. I'd also imagine you're enjoying not living under a Kaiser or a Fuhrer, something for which the United States is largely responsible.

1) The first democratic country was New Zealand. Prior to that, there was no democratic nation (as less then 50% of the population could vote).

2) I live in a country that's enormously grateful for the Marshall plan, no doubt about it, that was a good thing for the world (thanks to your grandfather's generation)

3) Why do you have to bring up WWII? 'cause you have not fought any wars where you were clearly in the right since?

The OP said something that I found offensive about Americans, while quite clearly trumpeting his association with China. I felt obligated to point out the hypocrisy there. That's where the China connection came from.

Incorrect. The OP said something that you found offensive about Americans, and you looked at his website and jumped to the conclusion that he was chinese. You couldn't attack his argument, so you attacked what you thought he was instead.

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[aussie_a]

Slight difference. Muslims didn't democratically elect the Al-Qaeda. The American people supposedly did elect their government.

Re:Aw, these Americans...

[be-fan]

Muslims don't vote for al-Queda, nor do they, en masse, continue to support them with campaign contributions.

Moreover, as an American, I must point out that its a little silly to be proud of America's history. The US has done a lot of very bad things in its history, specifically the genocide of the native people and continued intervention into the affairs of Latin America. Being a proud American, thus, means either being ignorant of history, or swallowing some of the simpler ideas about fairness, humanity, and democratic freedom. Of course, that is not to say that the latter is that unusual a state of mind for people. Certainly, the Chinese, the Japanese, the British, the French, nor the Germans (or whomever else sees it fit to criticize America as of late), cannot say with a clear conscience that their dark history is any better than ours.

The thief's mentality...

[jkrise]

He suspects everyone else is a thief... or atleast a potential thief. Why would the US fear Chinese 'bugs' in Lenove PCs? And if indeed the fear is valid, then why was IBM allowed to contract it's manufacturing outside of the US, and in particular, China? If laws could be framed to control export of things like encryption etc, why not h/w manufacturing as well? So many jobs could be kept within the US.....

Tit for Tat?

[N8F8]

Could it be a little revenge for China helping Irans nuclear program and supporting its military in general? More specifically, supplying high grade Uranium gas?

This is stupid...

[Bert64]

A huge proportion of computer hardware is manufactured in China and has been for years, not to mention countless other things... What's to stop the Chinese from sending bugged components instead of full machines?

However it raises an interesting point, it's much easier to hide back doors in software, so by this reckoning china should ban the use of american software... If this started happening, i`m sure microsoft would make it's pet government back down.

Takes one to know one

[Anonymous Coward]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1769 642.stm
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01 /19/china.plane.bug/index.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/15/10501725 99474.html

History repeats: Venice and the Turks

[Flying pig]

The Venetian Empire was constantly threatened by the Turkish Empire...but their traders just couldn't resist doing business with the vast expanse of Asia Minor. And the long term outcome? Venice lost.

Interestingly Dubai looks like its ruler is consciously aiming at becoming the next Venice, and his relations with the US are going the same way (trying to obtain harbours in the Turkish empire==trying to buy ports in the US).

The parallels are considerable. Venice relied on seapower and built the greatest manufacturing business in the world - the Arsenal, which employed 16000 men and could turn out three ships a day at its peak. But when it tried to rely on dominating trade and took its eye off manufacturing and naval power, it went into decline. The current US emphasis on creating a world of "intellectual property" and slowly de-emphasising manufacturing is not a good long term trend, at least for the US. Look at the UK, which is now a very third class power dependent on managing financial flows.

It looks like Marx was right; US capitalism may be destroyed by the internal contradictions, in that the interests of capitalists are contrary to the security of the country. Meanwhile, China while claiming to be business friendly is using Lenin's approach of using capitalism against itself.

We have a saying...

[Serious Simon]

In the Netherlands we have a saying that can be translated into English as "The way the innkeeper is himself, he suspects his guests"...

Why do you think China wants Windows source code?

[QuietLagoon]

Would the US have done the same to China?

The Chinese dpo no trust Windows unless they have the source code.

Do you really know what Windows is doing? They is this blob of unknown code that is running on 90% of the world's computers, all under the control of one corporation in the US, a corporation that receives special treatment from the US government.

Democracy

[Detritus]

They say they want democracy in the Middle East, but when there is democracy in the Middle East, they don't respect the outcome (Hamas).

Bullshit. Holding a democratic election does not absolve you of responsibility for the outcome. If "the People" want Hamas to run the P.A., they will have to live with the consequences of that decision. The rest of the world is under no obligation to underwrite the operations of a group of terrorists, whether democratically elected or not.

Bugs don't need to be software.

[cduffy]

Maybe they're talking about hardware that, say... logs keystrokes, and can be summoned to retrieve them by a later software infection (or by a low-power radio request -- if these machines make it into an embassy or somesuch, it's entirely reasonable to have a feet-on-the-ground representative carry a piece of hardware that transfers the logs off the box).

Look at some of the ways the US bugged equipment exported to Russia during the cold war -- there's a lot of ingenuity going on there.

So how does this supposed bugging scam work?

[Savage-Rabbit]

...the vast majority of PCs (including Apple, dell, hp, gateway, etc) are manufactured (or at least part manufactured) in China?

True enough, the whole suggestion of PC bugging is almost funny. If the Chinese were to bug every single computer that gets assembled in China just on the off chance that it happens to end up in a secret US.Govt facitlity they would leave a footprint so large that the operation would be blown wide open pretty quickly. How many amateurs and computer engineers are there around the world picking their computers apart? One would expect such a scam to be discovered pretty quickly. Besides that how are the Chinese going tell which of the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of computers the US.Govt buys end up in secret facilities. Do the computes phone home? Do they have self activating bugging devices that phone home (through how many layers of firewalling and network security?) when they some how automatically detect that they are in a US Govt facility? The whole suggestion of the Chinese bugging computers wholesale is ridiculous. That leaves us with the possibility of a sophisticated Chinese sting operation that uses the Lenovo distribution network to spike only those computers Lenovo and its distributors (distributors which would have to be staffed by the Chinese intelligence) know are likely to be destined for sensetive facilites. That would minimize the likelyhood of the scam being discovered unless US intel started randomly sampling computers and checking them for bugs but it still seems collossally impractical. If I were Chinese intelligence I would stick to working the most vulnerable part of any US.Govt operation. I would, for example, look for that inevitable disappointed, bored out of his skull, stuck in a dead end career pencil pusher and bribe him/her. It has worked in the past and it will work today. There have to be a thousand more practical ways of spying on the US than bugging computers.

US bugs Chinese "Airforce 1" Okay?!

[didiken]

Funny that US has bugged a Boeing 767 purchased from the US for use by former President Jiang Zemin.

Didn't hear the Chinese stop buying jumbo jets.