Slashdot Mirror


Semantic Web Under Suspicion

Dr Occult writes "Much of the talk at the 2006 World Wide Web conference has been about the technologies behind the so-called semantic web. The idea is to make the web intelligent by storing data such that it can be analyzed better by our machines, instead of the user having to sort and analyze the data from search engines. From the article: 'Big business, whose motto has always been time is money, is looking forward to the day when multiple sources of financial information can be cross-referenced to show market patterns almost instantly.' However, concern is also growing about the misuses of this intelligent web as an affront to privacy and security."

23 of 79 comments (clear)

  1. It's cool! by crazyjeremy · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Semantic web" might make it easier for HackerBillyBob to find a potential identity fraud victim's information. So basically, HackerBillyBob can get dumber and dumber but do more and more damage. Fortunately the good side of this is PhisherBillyBob can decrease his R&D time because SemantiGoog will give him thousands of ACTIVE email addresses EACH AND EVERY MORNING.

  2. All Talk by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative

    So I know a lot of people that get all excited when they read articles on the "semantic web."

    I think that we are all missing some very important aspects of what it takes to make something capable of what they speak of. In all the projects I have worked on, to create something geared toward this sort of solution, you need two things: training data & a robust taxonomy.

    First things first, how would we define or even agree on a taxonomy? By taxonomy, I mean something with breadth & depth that has been used and verified. By breadth I mean that it must be capable of normalization (pharmacetical concoctions, drugs & pills are all the same concept), stemming (go & went are the same action, dog & dogs are the same concept) and also important is how many tokens wide a concept can be. By depth I mean that we must be able to define specificity and use it to our advantage (a site about 747s is scored higher than a site about airline jets which is scored higher than a site about planes). By rigorous I mean that it must be tried and true ... you start with a corpus of documents to "seed" it and have experts (or web surfers) contribute little by little until it is accurate. Oh, it must also be able to adapt quickly and stay current.

    Without a taxonomy, how will we index sites and be able to tell between "water tanks" and "panzer tanks." I think that this is one of the great things that Google is missing to really improve its searching abilities. If you suggest an ontology to replace it, the problems encountered in developing it only multiply.

    Where is the training data? Well, one may argue that the web content out there will suffice as training data but I think that more importantly, they need collections of traffic for these sites and user behavioral patterns to quickly and adequately deduce what the surfer is in need of.

    I feel that these two aspects are missing and the taxonomy may be impossible to achieve.

    Why are we even concerned with security if we can't even lay the foundations for the semantic web? I would argue that once we plan it out and determine it's viable, then we concern ourselves with the everyone's rights.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:All Talk by RobotWisdom · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree. My own (universally ignored) proposal for the taxonomy problem starts with person, place, and thing as 'elements' and builds complex ideas as compounds of these: [faq]

    2. Re:All Talk by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've always thought that the Table of Contents for Roget's Thesaurus was one of the greatest works of mankind. I don't think many people realize just how difficult the problem really is, and how long it's going to take.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    3. Re:All Talk by Who235 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Of course how would it handle typos like "smantic"?

    4. Re:All Talk by Trigun · · Score: 3, Funny

      By pointing them out and laughing at them? Seems to work around here.

    5. Re:All Talk by Temposs · · Score: 2, Informative
      As another reply mentions, WordNet is a promising avenue of success for creating a taxonomy and an ontology for the web(just read a paper on ontologizing semantic relations using WordNet, actually). In fact, it already is a taxonomy of sorts(and a multi-dimensional one at that), although a generalized one. And there are multitudinous other projects building off of WordNet and paralleling WordNet.

      There's VerbNet, FrameNet, Arabic WordNet, and probably others I don't know about.

      WordNet has become a standard for working with semantic relations computationally these days. It works by storing all known senses of every dictionary word, and each sense has links to other words based on how it's semantically related(synonym, antonym, hyper/hyponym, meronym, troponym, cause, is_a, morphological derivative, etc...)

      There's not any model that can compete with it currently, and it's widely accessible and very easy to use. As this tool improves, so will the semantic web.

      --
      Knowledge is just opinion that you trust enough to act upon. -Orson Scott Card
  3. Smarter Machines by jekewa · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I personally fear the day that a machine or algorithm can better determine the purpose for my keyword-based search than I can. Sure, there's a lot of improvement that can be done to make the searches more precice, but certainly in the end it'll be my decision what's important and what isn't.

    What I really want to see is the search engine reduce the duplicated content to single entries (try Googling for a Java classname and you'll see how many Google-searched websites have the API on them), or order them by reoccurrance of the word or phrase giving the context more value than the popularity of the page.

    --
    End the FUD
    1. Re:Smarter Machines by Irish_Samurai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What I really want to see is the search engine reduce the duplicated content to single entries (try Googling for a Java classname and you'll see how many Google-searched websites have the API on them), or order them by reoccurrance of the word or phrase giving the context more value than the popularity of the page.

      There is a huge problem with this, and it goes back to the days of people jamming 1000 instances of their keywords at the bottom of their pages in the same fant color as the background. Also, your desire to rate the pages on context requires an ontology type algo, which is NOT easy. Google has been working on this for a little while now, but it is a big hill to climb. They are using popularity as a substitution for this. It is not the most effective, but it is a pretty decent second option.

      There is another issue with the approach you suggest. If Google decides that javapage.htm is the end all be all of JAVA knowledge, and removes all other listings from their database - then everyone and their grandmother will be fed information from this one source. That will ultimately reduce the effectiveness of Google to return valid responses to people who do not use search like a robot.

      There is a human element at play here that Google is attempting to cater to through sheer numbers. Not everyone knows how to use search properly, hell most people have no idea. Keyword order, booleans, quotes - these will all affect the results given back, but very few people use them right off the bat. If you reduce the number of returned listings for a single word search to one area that was detirmined to be the authority, you have just made your search engine less effective in the eyes of the less skilled. I would be willing to bet that this less skilled group composed most of Googles userbase.

      If you don't cater to these people, then you lose marketshare, and then you lose revenue from advertisers, and then you go out of business.

  4. It's already happening... by gravyface · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...and growing and evolving.

    Take a look at the "blogosphere" and the tagging/classification initiative that's happening there.

    Sure, it seems crude and unrefined but it's working, like most grass-roots initiatives do when compared with grandiose "industry standards" and the big, bulky workgroups that try to define them.

    --
    body massage!
  5. The idea is to make the web intelligent by Jon+Luckey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Obligitory Skynet joke in

    5...4...3...2...1

    --
    -- 3 events that reshaped the world in the 20th century: WW1, WW2, and WWW
  6. Biz School by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Big business, whose motto has always been time is money"

    That motto is really "anything for a buck". Even if business has to wait or waste time to get money, it will wait until the cows come home - then sell them.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  7. Semantic Web ~- evil by tbriggs6 · · Score: 5, Informative
    The article does a pretty bad job at explaining the situation. The idea behind the Semantic Web is simply to provide a framework for information to be marked up for machines rather than human eyes. The idea is that using an agreed upon frame of reference for the symbols contained in the page (an ontology), agents are able to make use of the information contained there. Further, an agent can collection data from several different ontologies and (hopefully) perform basic reasoning tasks over that data, and (even better) complete some advanced tasks for the agent's user.

    The article would have us believe that this is going to expose everyone to massive amounts of privacy invasion. This is not necessarily the case. It is already the case that there are privacy mechanisms to protect information in the SW (e.g. require agents to authenticate to a site to retrieve restricted information). Beyond simple mechanisms, there is a lot of research being conducted on the idea of trust in the semantic web - e.g. how does my agent know to trust a slashdot article as absolute truth and a wikipedia article as outright fabrication (or vice versa).

    As for making the content of the internet widely available, some researchers feel this will never happen. As another commenter noted that it is essential that there is agreement in the definition of concepts (ontologies) to enable the SW to work (if my agent believes the symbol "apple" refers to the concept Computer, and your agent believes it refers to "garbage", we may have some interesting but less than useful results). I am researching ontology generation using information extraction / NLP techniques, and it is certainly a difficult problem, and one that isn't likely to have a trivial problem (in some respects, this is goes back to the origins of AI in the 1950's, and we're still hacking at it today).

    For some good references on the Semantic Web (beyond Wikipedia), check out some of these links

    1. Re:Semantic Web ~- evil by tbriggs6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ontologies for the Semantic Web are based on description logics (OWL-DL) or first-order logics (Owl-Full). We define classes and their relationships (T-Box definitions), and we define instance assertions (A-Box definitions).

      For example, we could define the Apple domain as :

      Classes: Computer, Garbage, ComputerMfg
      Roles: makesComputer computerMadeBy

      We can assign the domain of makesComputer to be a ComputerMfg, and the range to be a Computer (the inverse would be flipped).

      Class rdf:ID="Computer"

      Class rdf:ID="Garbage"

      Class rdf:ID="ComputerMfg"

      ObjectProperty rdf:ID="computerMadeBy, domain rdf:resource="#Computer", range rdf:resource="#ComputerMfg", inverseOf rdf:ID="makesComputer",

      ObjectProperty rdf:about="#makesComputer", domain rdf:resource="#ComputerMfg", range rdf:resource="#Computer", inverseOf rdf:resource="#computerMadeBy"

      Nothing about Apple yet. So,

      We can assert that "APPLE" is a ComputerMfg (not Garbage), and that it is related to the symbol PoweerBook by the makesComputer / computerMadeBy relationship.

      Computer rdf:ID="PowerBook", computerMadeBy ComputerMfg rdf:ID="APPLE"
                      makesComputer rdf:resource="#PowerBook"

      So, using the Semantic Web (as it stands) requires crisp description logics, and admits (almost) no ambiguity. For those who want to pick at me, yes, OWA and UNA make things a little strange.

      Given that natural language is fraught with uncertainty, this is the root of the automatic ontology generation problem (and the beginning of my research).

  8. Pfff, the problem is marketing by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Lets use the holiday example giving in the article. So I got a hotel that is 54 dollars per night. That means I am not going to be included in the below 50 dollar search. Hmmm, I don't want that. I want maximum exposure. So I lower my price to 49 dollars + 10 dollars in extra fees that are a suprise when you receive the bill (what you say? 49+10 > 54? Offcourse you idiot, any price cut must be offset by higher charges elsewhere.)

    You could already do this semantic web nonsense if people would just stick to a standard and be honest with what they publish.

    Nobody wants to do that however. Mobile phone companies always try to make their offering sound as attractive as possible by highlighting the good points and hiding the bad ones. Phone stores try to cut through this by making their own charts for comparing phone companies but in turn try to hide the fact that they get a bigger cut from some companies then others.

    It wouldn't be at all hard to set up a standard that would make it very easy to tell what cell phone subscription is best for you. Getting the companies involved to participate is impossible however.

    This is the real problem with searching the web right now. It wouldn't be at all hard to use google today if everyone was honest with their site content. For instance, removed the word "review" from a product page if no review is available.

    Do you think this is going to happen anyday soon? No, then the semantic web will not be with us anyday soon either.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  9. Who Web? by geobeck · · Score: 2, Funny

    How many people read this and thought "Okay, what have they done with Norton now?"

    --
    Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
  10. Semnatic Web vs. Contextual Web Mining by saddino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All the hoopla around the Semantic Web reminds me exactly of the days "XML" became the latest high-flying meme touted by "tech" writers en masse. Witness:

    The semantic search engine would then cross-reference all of the information about hotels in Majorca, including checking whether the rooms are available, and then bring back the results which match your query.

    And here in all its glory is the 1999 version:
    The software would then use XML to cross-reference all of the information about hotels in Majorca, including checking whether the rooms are available, and then bring back the results which match your query.

    Of course, the problem with this fantasy of XML was that no standardization of schemas led to an infinite mix of tagging and thus, the laypersons idea that "this XML document can be read and understood by any software" was pure bunk.

    Granted, the semantic web addresses many of these problems, but IMHO the underlying problem remains: layers of context on top of content still need to be parsed and understood.

    So the question remains: will the Semantic Web be implemented in a useful fashion before some develops a Contextual Web Mining system that understands web content to a degree that it fufills the promise of the Semantic Web without additional context?

    Disclaimer: I work on contextual web content extraction software so yes I may be biased towards this solution, but I really think the Semantic Web has a insanely high hurdle (proper implementation in millions of web pages) before we can tell how successful it is.

    1. Re:Semnatic Web vs. Contextual Web Mining by Peter+Mork · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The semantic web is a step up from XML. In an XML document, there is a great deal of information implicitly stored in the structure of the document. A human is (often) able to guess what the implied relationship is between the parent element and the child element, but machines are still poor at guessing. By making the relationship explicit (using RDF) a machine has a better chance of identifying the nature of the relationship. Of course, you still need standard tags, but it's easier to talk about named relationships rather than tacit relationships. (And my dissertation revolved around building Semantic Web infrastructure in a peer-to-peer setting.)

  11. Well by aftk2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    The semantic web would have to be feasible before it posed some sort of threat, so I wouldn't get too up in arms about this.

    --
    concrete5: a cms made for marketing, but strong enough for geeks.
  12. Glass Houses by Baavgai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "All of this data is public data already," said Mr Glaser. "The problem comes when it is processed."

    The privacy and security concerns are bizarre. They're saying that there is currently an implicit "security through obscurity" and that's ok. However, if someone were to make available data more easily found, then it would be less secure?

    Here's a radical thought; don't make any data public you don't want someone to see. Blaming Google because you put your home address on your blog and "bad people" found you is absurd. If data is sensitive it shouldn't be there now.

    You can't really bitch about peeping Tom's if you built the glass house.

  13. I have a chapter on SW in my new book by MarkWatson · · Score: 2, Informative

    I am both a sceptic and a fan of the SW. I dislike XML serialization of RDF (and RDFS and OWL) - to me the SW is a knowledge engineering task and frankly 20 year old Lisp systems seem to offer a friendlier notation and a much better working environment. If you are a Lisp-er, check out the (now) open source Loom system that supplies a descriptive logic reasoner and other goodies.

    The Protege project provides a good (and free) editor for working on ontologies - you might want to grab a copy and work through a tutorial.

    I think that the SW will take off, but its success will be a grass roots type of effort: simple ontologies will be used in an adhoc sort of way and the popular ones might become defacto standards. I don't think that a top-down standards approach is going to work.

    I added a chapter on the SW to my current Ruby book project, but it just has a few simple examples because I wanted to only use standard Ruby libraries -- no dependencies makes it easier to play with.

    I had a SW business idea a few years ago, hacked some Lisp code, but never went anywhere with it (I tend to stop working on my own projects when I get large consulting jobs): define a simple ontology for representing news stories and writing an intelligent scraper that could create instances, given certain types of news stories. Anyway, I have always intended to get back to this idea someday.

  14. SKYNET vs "Intelligent web" .. by Entropy · · Score: 2, Funny

    The thing is, SKYNET was a military based computer and it gave us "Judgement Day".

    I dare hypothesize that if a truly intlligent web ever arose, it would have a strong porn background.

    I shudder to think of what it's version of Judgement Day would be ..

    --
    The sea changes color, but the sea does not change.
  15. The OTHER massive issue by SamSim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The huge, glaring issue with the Semantic Web idea that I see is: how do you force the creators of web content to put the right semantic tags on their content? What's to stop there being thousands of sites full of nothing but semantic tags so that even Swoogling for "747" brings up porn first? The clear answer is that the tags will have to be out of the control of the creators of the web content. That means somebody or someTHING else - namely, your Semantic Web search engine of choice - has to figure out your site's tags for you. And the ONLY way to accurately judge, classify and rank a web page is by its actual, real content. This is just another way of looking at the same problem. I'm waiting to be impressed.