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A DNA Database For All U.S. Workers?
fragmer writes "New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg suggested a plan on Wednesday that would establish a DNA or fingerprint database to track and verify all legal U.S. workers. The mayor said DNA and fingerprint technology could be used to create a worker ID database that will 'uniquely identify the person' applying for a job, ensuring that cards are not illegally transferred or forged. Bloomberg compared his proposed federal identification database to the Social Security card, insisting that such a system would not violate citizens' privacy and was not a civil liberties issue."
The power lies with the proles.
"Bloomberg compared his proposed federal identification database to the Social Security card, insisting that such a system would not violate citizens' privacy and was not a civil liberties issue."
Just by saying that, he's acknowledging that its a civil liberties issue.
Gattaca anyone?
Bloomberg is a dumbass who watches too much TV. DNA comparisons take weeks to perform, not 5 minutes like on television procedural police dramas. Can you imagine having to wait 4 to 6 weeks every time you cross a border, fly on an airplane, perform a transaction at the DMV, etc. while someone checks out your DNA to verify your identity?
Omnes stulti sunt.
Requiring all Jewish residents to register as such and wear a Star of David on their shirts is also just a purely administrative aid, to stop people cheating the system and could never be used as a real civil liberties issue either.
I wish people would learn that we can trust the government simply because they tell us we can.
However, the first time they use it to identify a criminal, thus making every person in the database a potential suspect, it becomes a civil liberties issue.
You see, to a Republican, working is purely optional.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Well I would certainly feel that my privacy was being violated. My DNA is private, thank you very much, and the state most certainly does not have a right to the details of it. It would be nice to think that this is the sort of suggestion that would lose a politician his job, but I have a bad feeling that some will find it rather popular.
Any database that allows people to determine the identities of all the people at any scene, whether it is a crime scene or otherwise, is a civil liberties issue. You were at WHAT social gathering? With WHOM? Now we're going to all have to start behaving like Ethan Hawke in GATTACA, scrubbing off all our dead skin cells before we go out.
Music speeds up when you yawn, but does not change pitch.
> Bloomberg compared his proposed federal identification database to the
> Social Security card, insisting that such a system would not violate
> citizens' privacy and was not a civil liberties issue.
I'm sure that when a CD-ROM containing DNA markers for every single worker in New York's economy is obtained by the Russian mafia after being stolen from a (vendor|employee|contractor)'s (house|car|laptop), the tight security afforded by the mandatory (fingerprint|weak encryption|screen door) security will be of great comfort to the affected. And instead of some artificial construct like a SSN, a physically significant identity will have been stolen.
Not to mention that completely resequencing a human's genome is incredibly expensive even today.
What an incredible jackass. If this comes to pass, move to Singapore, at least they seem to have some grip on what makes business work there.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
When will gov't realise this?
Does this moron know how much it would COST to do that? We're talking a DNA sample from every working age adult (15 to ...?).
Just WHAT is this supposed to give us? Are employers who currently hire illegal aliens suddenly going to pay for DNA/fingerprinting of their employees to find out if they're legal?
Or is this another expense for the immigration department / police departments? Will they have to check the DNA of everyone they arrest on immigration issues?
That guy is an idiot.
Even without the Civil Liberty issues, this idea would be too expensive to implement and yield NOTHING.
It looks like "immigration" is this year's "child porn". All you politicians need to get on "immigration" today!
1. Government notices problem.
2. Media takes problem, makes it a big news story.
3. Government takes problem and introduces legislation that does more to restrict ordinary law-abiding citizens.
4. Profit (More Power)
How many years was illegal immigration going on and companies using them (persumably this DNA database will be designed to curtail that)? And when exactly did the government/news decide to make it a central issue? The governemnt must have seen what a great tool fear, distrust, and anger were to gain power for themselves.
I don't get it.
But it will stop all terrorists, sexual predators, sexual terroristic predators and sexual predatory terrorists! Surly you don't want our children to all into their hands, which is what you do if you oppose our plan.
P.S.: God bless America!
"The mayor said DNA and fingerprint technology could be used to create a worker ID database that will 'uniquely identify the person' applying for a job, ensuring that cards are not illegally transferred or forged."
Oh great, another plan where we track innocent people in an effort to find the guilty ones. Maybe if they chose opposite strategies they wouldn't be met with such public opposition.
The employers who bother to ask for an SS card or even go as far as to check the number are not the problem. Even if the workers are illegal they are paying taxes so that's at least a good thing. The only crime is being in the US illegally.
The actual problem are the employers hiring illegals and paying them under the table.
The proposed program will only harm actual tax paying workers by collecting informatino that will only help to make them suspects in crimes.
"Why was your fingerprint on the telephone in that bedroom?" "Because I stayed at a holiday inn this weekend."
Fuck you!
Per Square Mile, a blog about density
"If people think it is a civil liberties issue, it is a civil liberties issue."
I'm sorry, I think you need to submit for re-education. The government has said it's not a civil liberties issue; what more proof do you need?
If anything, we should have learned from the disaster that the use of our social security number has become. It started out with a use that was extremely limited in scope, and has since become a nearly universal identifier for all kinds of information about us- all without our permission, and in many cases, our knowledge. The proliferation of its abuse is now why we're faced with issues like identity theft.
This point cannot be emphasized enough: once something like this becomes a problem, it's too late. Have you seen any "solution" to identity theft? Didn't think so. The only effective response is to slam the door closed on these kinds of ideas, and weld it shut.
Good point though. I wonder how the police deal with DNA evidence for twins. I very much doubt their DNA testing is sufficiently advanced to pick up the minor differences in DNA twins have. I guess they have to hope for fingerprints.
Someone should ask for a DNA sample from mayor Bloomberg. If he has nothing to hide, why not give it to the public? We can test for all kinds of diseases, maybe see if he's predisposed to any mental illness. Would people (re-)elect someone with a proven predisposition for psychotic behaviour?
The problem I've heard mentioned is that with any biological marker, as soon as someone figures out how to fake it you're screwed.
There's no need to fake the biometric data. Breaking into whatever machine hosts the database is quite sufficient.
If this system ever comes to pass, it would be a very appropriate countermeasure to make the DNA of every legislator who voted for it come up as a terrorist or sex offender.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
No. The Patriot Act coupled with the DMCA specifically prohibit unauthorized copying of DNA by infants.
Pull my finger for my public key.
After my last visit to NYC, I would say this is SOP.
The problem we're having right now is that our government is intent upon restricting Rights. This story is a great example of that kind of "logic".
Instead, we need to focus more on the Constitution and show that their power-grabs do NOT conform to the very blatantly stated restricted powers of government.
Rather than try to ammend the Constitution (or pass laws) to protect each Right of the People, we need to demand that the Government show a Constitutional basis for each of their laws.
And looking through the Constitution, I don't see anything supporting the Government's desire to collect information on citizens who are NOT accused of any crime.
Until they amend the Constitution to include that, then they are NOT allowed to do so.
When I see Big Brother-ish proposals like this I'm glad my employer is showing some decency and respect for privacy: http://www.ibm.com/news/us/en/2005/10/2005_10_11.h tml
Quantum mechanics: the dreams that stuff is made of.
> Uh, we support the basic idea. How is DNA different than a finger print or photo?
How is asking your name different from demanding your driver's license?
How is patting you down different from a strip search?
How is knowing your address different from entering and searching your home?
It's a 4th Amendment issue at the very least. The general principle is that you don't target *everybody* for investigation just so you can catch a few. Constitutionally you have to have specific reasons to suspect criminal behavior in order to detain and/or search someone.
When we withheld due process from the VERY FIRST PERSON, we became EXACTLY as bad and evil as and Nazi.
The ONLY differences being methods and bodycount.
To the person tied to a chair and beaten to death, or marched into the gas chamber, it doesn't matter that "there's only one"...
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Bingo!
...
... and ... linking that person's body (via tattoos or DNA or fingerprints) to any government authorization.
Although there isn't much real difference between issuing someone a Social Security card and tattooing that number upon his body
Yeah, almost everyone can see the difference between issueing a card with a number to a person
Almost everyone. Fascism is a state of mind. It is when you value people's Freedom less than the perceived "efficiency" of your Government.
The government serves the People.
The People do not serve the Government.
My photo will feature a great big Groucho Marx mustache and a Bozo wig. And I will supply a DNA sample ... from my cat.
Soylent Green is peoplicious!
They DO realize it.
It's the princple of: Tell a lie loud enough, often enough and long enough and the people will eventually believe it to be true."
Most people believe the Patriot Act is necessary and constitutional. Why should they not buy this new lie? It pisses me off that even many small-government conservatives believe that limiting rights in exchange for a vague promise of safety is necessary, let alone even remotely acceptable.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
In New York, attacking an employee of the government (Bloomberg may indeed qualifty) is a greater crime than attacking a regular citizen. All other things being equal, this could be as much a difference of 3 1/2 years for the latter and 7 years for the former.
All people are equal. Some are more equal than others.
I see this as a women's rights issue, in addition to the obvious 'they looked at our DNA!' complaint.
No employer is ever going to just take a single hair or a few skin scrapings. They're going to want blood, and more than just a finger prick. If they do that before getting back to you with a decision, they could be screening for, say... PREGNANCY. SSRI's. Who knows what.
Even if the system were perfect it would give employers a blank check to perform unwelcome and illegal tests on job applicants. And that just ain't cool.
Oh course Koresh and Weaver didn't succeed. They had less guns than their opposition. Revolution only works when everyone helps out.
your opposition has clusterbombs and cruise missiles.
sum.zero
Actually, power lies with guns (as it always has), whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive that it is the Duty of the People to alter or abolish it.
You're an idiot, and this is just an assaninely stupid statement.
What you seem to have missed out on is that in 1776, the guns the populace had and the guns the government had were the same, so the side that won was pretty much based on how many people you had, influenced by your ability to pay them, and their emotional/economic investment in the fight.
In modern day resistence, guns are so useless that they're only used against extremely poor governments. You might be able to stage a revolution in the Congo with guns, hell, you can even do it with enough people and some machetes, but there is just no way that you can keep a government like the US government honest with the treat of a firearm. The government is not threatened by a firearm - it is useless against their tank, and it is especially useless after the government has blown up your car.
Iraqi insurgents have guns. IRA had guns. Hamas has guns. What do these groups do with guns? They try to AVOID using them, because when they make use guns they are visible, and when they are visible people can drop a bomb on them. A gun is useless when your enemy is just going to send a missile into your apartment if they know where you are. They know that guns don't work, which is why they use bombs. Look at the number of Americans killed in Iraq by IED vs. firearm.
Even with bombs, you're not going to get what you want; all you succeed at doing is creating an environment of poor security, which leads to a poor economy. Even in a poor economy, the government is still better off than the populace. Once you've let the government get out of hand, it's too late: The best you can do is make your economy so bad that your government becomes militarily weak enough that they provoke someone to come and invade you.
There's a name for places like that: Bosnia.
Americans must VIGILENTLY protect and excercise their democratic rights to keep the government honest. If it comes time to use guns, we're fucked.
paintball
Iraqi insurgents HAVE guns. They have PILES of guns. They *CHOOSE* not to use them because they ARE NOT EFFECTIVE.
The insurgents would be doing us a HUGE FAVOR if they started using guns. Why? Because then we would know who the insurgents were - they're the guys shooting at us - and we'd know where they are - in the building the bullets are coming from! Then we just drop a bomb on the building, problem solved.
Instead, the insurgents avoid using guns and instead use bombs. Why? Because when a bomb kills your troops, the bomb doesn't tell you who or where the insurgent is.
That's the problem with you gun nuts - you have absolutely no concept of tactics. You think that "Oo, I can shoot the other guy, I win!" The other guy is thinking "Oo, I can drop a bomb on the other guy, I win!" and HE is right.
Insurgents in Iraq are not causing all this damage DESPITE not using guns, they're causing it BECAUSE they don't use guns.
The insurgents who thought they could fight the US with guns are already dead. Only the insurgents who use bombs are left, because they're never around to be killed.
paintball
That is obvioulsy why the IRA owned South Armagh and even the police had to be flown in and could not use the roads for safety, even garbage had to be flown out by helicopter from the bases (until the SAS came in and played them at their own game with their underhanded tactics). Get your facts right. Terrorists did a HUGE amount of damage to the UK government and over a LONG period of time. The UK Government had no chance against the populance that dispised them so much.
And? I said that guns are useless for defending yourself from the government. You havn't presented anything against that.
All you've said is that terrorists can cause a lot of damage. So? What's that got to do with guns? Terrorists who cause the most damage don't even use guns! They use fertilizer, box cutters, improvised artillery shells, and airplanes. And for all the damage the IRA did, all they managed to do was hurt the economy where they lived. All of their efforts did nothing but hurt themselves. Pretty stupid, isn't it?
paintball
What part of:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Do you not understand? All of the above is a longer way of staying you have a right to privacy from government intrusion.
You couldn't be more wrong if you were president. The majority of American casualties and deaths in Iraq are due to firearms. The idea that firearms are ineffective is, much like you, beyond stupid.
Hrm, wouldn't it be wonderful if somebody kept track of the causes of troop fatalities in Iraq? Then we could tell which one of us is really stupid. But wait! SOMEBODY DOES KEEP TRACK!
Top 10 causes of troop fatalities in Iraq, March 2003->May 2006:
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack 863 - 32.1%
Hostile - hostile fire 389 - 14.5%
Non-hostile - vehicle accident 215 - 8%
Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire 154 - 5.7%
Hostile - hostile fire - car bomb 101 - 3.8%
Hostile - hostile fire - mortar attack 89 - 3.3%
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack 78 - 2.9%
Non-hostile - helicopter crash 78 - 2.9%
Hostile - helicopter crash 66 - 2.5%
Hostile - hostile fire - ambush 60 - 2.2%
That includes the start of the war though. If you look at the past three months (March->May):
IED/Car Bomb/Explosion/Helicopter/missile: 119
Non-specied hotile fire/small arms fire: 37
That counts unspecified hostile fire (which could be anything) in the 2nd category, as I would guess it's more likely that actual IED casualties are classified as IED deaths than just hostile fire deaths while gunfire is more likely to just get lumped into hostile fire.
36.4% of all fatalities (combat AND non-combat fatalities) in Iraq since March 2003 were caused by IED. In the past three months, over half of *ALL* troop fatalities (99 out of 183) have been caused by IED. If you take out the non-com deaths, 63% of combat deaths are by IED alone.
The longer the war has gone on, the more insurgents have been relying on IED's. Why? Because the insurgents who use guns are dead. That's the tactical environment in Iraq: Use your gun to kill a few US troops before you get killed, or use your IED to kill more troops and do it again later.
Source:
http://icasualties.org/oif/stats.aspx
paintball
would these be the same people that were guards at abu ghraib? or that are patroling gitmo? or murdered iraqi civilians execution style? and so on...
sum.zero
What do you mean, "what remained of them"?
The Taliban is still a strong presence in Afghanistan, they're far from being defeated. They're not running the _entire_ country anymore, but they're certainly not gone. The troops still there are trying to build up an infrastructure while defeating the Taliban, and it's not going all that hot. It's NATO troops there now, by the way. This really should be common knowledge - I know Iraq is the "in" country right now, but that certainly doesn't mean Afghanistan's done with.
~ Leilah
Saying that the governments in the US and Birtian possibly changing is due to the insurgency in Iraq is about as valid as saying the governments in Germany, France, etc, didn't support the invasion because of the insurgency in Iraq, even though the insurgency hadn't happened yet.
Many people thought that invading Iraq was a bad idea. Those people had a government that did not reflect that opinion - in the US, partly because people vote on other issues (like gun control or abortion) that are the most important to them and get you a government that likes to invade other countries as a consequence.
Hell, the government in the US *HAS* to change if for no other reason than that Bush's term limits are up. It's even looking likely that we might get a presidential race between someone like Feingold and McCain - can you imagine that? Each party fielding a rational, intelligent candidate?
Anyway, even if your (or their) definition of success is "get rid of hated US government", they still are failing: At best, they've substitted one hated government for another. Even if Bush gets ousted by a Democrat, the American troops arn't going anywhere - we broke it, we've bought it. The only thing dumber than invading Iraq would be to leave it without finishing the job.
The truth is, though, that THEIR definition of success isn't even political change. Their definition of success is "Condutct/die in a holy war." If you gave many of these guys the choice between wiping the US off the face of the earth and going home to farm with their family, OR continuing a holy war, many of them would find a way to continue a holy war.
That was the big mistake the US made in invading Iraq: We gave the Arab "freedom fighters" a way to fight a holy war locally.
paintball
Just take a look at the architects of the Iraqi invasion and it's biggest backers - all people that did not serve in the military (many took multiple deferments such as Cheney) and do not have family members serving in Iraq.
If Bush, Cheney, Rummsfield and GOP leaders in Congress all had sons or daughters in the service who would have been on the front lines, maybe they really would have treated war as a last resort rather than planning on invading Iraq from day 1. Maybe they would have made plans to secure the country after ousting Saddam instead of ignoring historians who predicted violent resistance to any occupation. Maybe they would have been a little less eager to legalize tourture if they knew their family members could be patrolling the streets of Baghdad and the information leaked out. Invading Iran might not even be on the table of discussion if it meant sending Jr. out on his 4th tour of duty. But no, they've only risked other peoples lives, other peoples sons and daughters.
Far from being a "tired argument", you could hardly find one more relevant.