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Can You Survive Long Commutes?
Should I Be a Frequent Flier asks: "I am currently considering a job offer in an Aerospace company, and suffice it to say, I am very excited. Unfortunately, there is a catch - I would have to fly to work. While this may seem appropriate for an Aerospace job, it might not be appropriate for a married life, as it would require that I spend two or three nights a week away from my family. This is a big step, and I don't want to pass up a wonderful opportunity, but I don't what to wreck my marriage for a job. Does anyone have any experience with this sort of arrangement, either pro or con?"
MOVE!!!
Pretty much any place in the country has the same services you have where you live. Nice people exist called real estate agents that can help you with this, if you happen to own your home.
It'll kill your relationship with your family. Don't do it man..
MTW
I don't mean to be so obvious, but really...if the opportunity is worth it (sounds like it is), then move. I know pulling children out of schools, or asking your spouse to find a different job seems cruel and unfair, but it happens. I've been through the cross-country move-for-a-job thing twice now. It sucks, I won't lie to you, but it will wear on you far less in the long run than trying to commute like that and not have time with your spouse.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Why are you asking me? I'm not your wife/husband. They're the only other person who could tell you if this job would wreck your family.
Maybe its because I put a high value on my family, but I would never take a job that required me to be away from them with such regularity. You're talking about missing a quarter or more of their lives. No amount of money is worth that.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
People lose more than half of their lives (along with time that could be spent with family/friends) by working full-time jobs. This is how most people have chosen to live their lives.
I have a better idea. Clone yourself. Did you see Multiplicity? Michael Keaton was, as usual, hilarious, but more importantly, he had the right idea. One of you can go to work, one of you can take care of the kids, one of you can have sex with your wife, etc. I'll let you figure it out amongst yourself who gets to do what, but I believe this is the solution you're looking for.
As usual, the answer depends on a few things.
The most important one, I think, has to do with what stage your marriage/family is at. If the kid(s) is/are young, don't do it.
Assuming your family situation/schedule is such that you can dissappear two or three days a week without seriously screwing things up, your wife is the next factor.
Even if your wife is currently "okay" with the idea, it might not last. Her family history is extremely relevant to this discussion. All kinds of psychological issues might crop up while/because you're gone.
Marriage counseling is a smart move, no matter what you decide.
If you go ahead with the job, you need to figure out, in advance, what problems you might have and how to deal with them. If you don't take the job, make sure you aren't going to resent the fact that your wife had some role in keeping you from it.
The alternative, if the kids are young, is to move.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
There's no golden rule. What works for somebody else might be perfect for you or the worst possible thing you could do. The most important thing is to be honest and open and trust your wife to be the same. Talk it over with her and come to some kind of understanding. The worst thing would be having to sit down again six months later and one of you say something like 'I thought I could handle it, so I didn't say anything before, but I really didn't want you to take this job.' That's when you're in trouble. Also, be open to change. You might think you'll be OK and find out a few months in that you're not or vice-versa. Be open and honest and you have a better than average chance of things working out.
I've always pictured the color of OS zealotry as a sort of bright flamingo pinkish hue
Honestly, if moving isn't an option (as it may well not be), slashdotters aren't the ones you should be asking. You really should talk about it with your wife.
when you say aerospace company, I bet that means you will be flying to different sites around the world, not a particular work spot. I think that most slashdotters are speaking from their experience where they've been asked to move where the company is, but that doesn't really apply here.
I know one boeing engineer who flies to the middle east and africa on a regular basis to help with sales. He seems ok with it, but has drawn a firm line as regards how many hours he's willing to spend at work and how much time he's willing to spend overseas. I've been told he's refused promotions several times that would have required too much time out off his family life.
My suggestion is that when you are in town, make sure you aren't working overtime, and that you get home to spend time with your family. I'd also explore the option of bringing your family along on vacations once in a while (I don't know how practical this is though...).
If you still don't get enough time with your family, I suggest starting new families at the various locations you fly to. If you marry the right people you might even turn a profit and be able to quit your job and be a husband full time.
I can really speak from my own experience. Just do it. You don't have to keep the job until the end of your life. And it could be refreshing for your partnership as well.
As a consultant, I have spent the past three weeks travelling and just spending three days and four nights with family. My advice: Don't do it. I'm starting to feel tired and away already and already longing to my previous not so exciting job. The job is nice, but having to miss the family turned out much more than we originally thought it would be. I can't even start to imagine how I would feel if my wife or one of the kids got sick. Hopefully I would find a job that doesn't require travel before then.
My boss from two jobs ago lived in FL, commuted to VA via plane, and rented a local apartment for what little weekday sleep he could get with his work hours. It worked for a year or so, before he took another job. It was obviously stressful, and I'm not sure that from what I saw that I would recommend that life to anyone. So much time gets absorbed with travel (and that was pre-9/11) that there wasn't time for a quality life wih this family when he was back home. OTOH, he made a large amount of money and was able to use the experience to get an even better subsequent job that didn't require such a hellish commute. As for me, I wouldn't do it. I'm quitting a job with a two hour commute in the DC area to become stay-at-home-dad for a while. We'll have to cut expenses, but I think it'll be worth it. Maybe I'll have a different view in a year, tho.
Dude... I've spent the last year and a half commuting to work via airplane. Flying out early Monday morning and coming home late Thursday night. Wicked opportunity, excellent client, lots of great experience. But it comes at a MASSIVE price. Recently married, trying to start a family - it weighed HEAVY on us. Took its toll and the ride has not been smooth. Looking back at it all now, I would NEVER have taken the chance after all that has happened. It's just not worth it man - family is number one. If you can move 'em with you and setup shop there, then do it. But otherwise, pass and find something local. Trust me. Jobs come and go but the love of your life does NOT and neither does your family.
Cheers.
Mark
I'll probably get modded down like the parent, but the parent has a point. It's absolute madness to consult a bunch of random geeks on the internet about this. Your question doesn't relate to open source software or emerging technology; it's not news for nerds or anything for nerds. And I have a point too: what someone says is far more important than how he says it.
I have a 3 hours/day commute (90 mins each way, sometimes it takes 2 hours to get there) and it's really eating into my productivity and my life. My advice: move to someplace closer, even if it's a smaller place, with your family.
Then again, consider that aerospace isn't the most stable kind of carrer today. Right up with microelectronics for cycles. Boeing has a huge bad rap for mistreating its engineers nowadays. Where are you moving to? Chicago?
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Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
The problem is, if you don't take this opportunity there is a good chance that you will resent having to turn down an opportunity that you are really excited about. Resentment kills relationships--it has a tendency to fester over the years. If you take the job, your wife (if she is like our wives were) could resent that you are essentially choosing your job over her (no, you can not rationalize this away by saying you are doing it "for the both of you", if she feels this way, she will continue to feel this way despite your best efforts. Feelings are feelings, they don't have to fit themselves to any arguments you come up with). Or, you can move. There are chances for resentment here as well--it really depends on your situation. I would normally say that I would try to see if she offered to move, but this doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be resentment on her part later (remember the rule--feelings are feelings--the fact that she offered of her own free will has no bearing on the feelings she has days/months/years later).
So, frankly, you are in a very difficult situation. What to do greatly depends on the personality traits of both you and your wife. Proceed carefully and discuss things in detail. Try not to make any life-altering decisions until finding out what all of both of your options are. Find out what she would be doing for a living if you both moved to the new town. Are there things that she would like to do there? How does moving there fit in with her personal life goals. Would it be a long-term move? What happens if she gets a great job offer several years later?
Anyway, I would say be very careful about any situation that you will be away on a regular basis. Some people can handle it, but I would definitely say that they are the minority. Good luck, and I hope some of this helps.
There's no place I can be, since I found Serenity.
As an airline pilot I've been living is one city and commuting to another for many years. In my case, my wife knew when we got married that the job would involve me being away for days at a time and so that was part of the ground rules of the relationship. In your case, though, it's a substantial change.
I can tell you, it's not only the fact that you're away for a days at a time... but the commute itself is just tiring. I've been lucky that my commutes have all been north - south, but my east - west commuter friends tell me that the time zone change makes a bad situation even worse. Also, the fact that after a hard week's work you know you still have an air commute home is something that wears you down. I probably don't have to tell your how aggravating airports are these days... security, weather delays, mechanical delays, etc. etc. You will be spending a lot of time waiting around at the airport, because flights don't just go when you want them to. You'll also spend a lot of time onboard planes even if the commute isn't very far because of various delays. On the plus side, you'll have plenty of time to get Linux running the way you like it on your laptop. On the minus side, you'll wind up leaving home and arriving back home at very early or late hours and there's a good chance you'll miss your kid singing in the school play, your anniversary, and the like.
Having said all that, it's a rare privilege that people can live where they want and work where they want at the same time. There's compromise in every situation, and personally I prefer commuting once a week by air to sitting in car traffic twice a day. Also, depending on the type of relationship you have with your wife, you may find that a little 'breathing room' makes you appreciate each other more when you're together. You have a chance to miss each other a bit. When I get home from my trip each week, I get the celebrity reception from the whole family.
Some wives are more the independent type, and others prefer the subordinate role. If your wife is comfortable making decisions and doesn't require your input for every little thing, then that's in your favor. In the end, though, you'll have to make sure you're both truly comfortable with the decision, because if you do it and she doesn't like it (even if she says it's ok), her resentment will start building up, which will create instability. YMMV. Good luck.
I was on a short term contract with a major oil company. It was work I kinda just fell into. I'd fly out sunday morning, spend two weeks working 12 hour days. On the weekends I didn't go home, I played tourist. I learned a lot, explored a lot and just about ruined a relationship. By the time I got done flying to and from the job site I was spending 36 hours at home every two weeks. After a year the job was moving to off shore platforms, the work was more dangerous, the time away would have been even longer. I called a meeting with my contract manager and said, "This work is going to last at least another year, if you commit to 12 months of employment, I'll move my family, no more expensive plane flights, no more scary cell phone bills." He went to bat for me with his boss, in the end, they couldn't promise the contract length and I went home, got married, and had kids.
I've never looked back and I still keep in touch with my contacts in that company. Moving is a very real option unless you are doing site to site travel.
Consider non traditional work schedules, 3 weeks on, 1 off. Extended time is required to properly bond with your family. Big firms know this. They should also know that a stable family life makes for a more productive workier. At least twice a year, fly the family to you instead of flying home, it's an adventure and an educational tour all at once.
On the other hand, my dad has worked in the oilfield for most of his life. All through my childhood, he worked different shifts, ranging from 2 weeks on / 1 off, to 5 weeks on / 5 weeks off. I survived. Sure, he missed both my brother's and my high school graduations, and lots of other things, but we would also spend a month each summer on vacation as a family, including an unforgettable 5 weeks in Europe when I turned 16. My parents have been married for over 37 years, and he's still doing that type of work. If anything, his schedule is even worse today.
Of course, 2-3 nights isn't that big of a deal. I do that (and longer) on occasion as a consultant, but not every week, and less frequently now. My wife is a shift worker, and we'll see each other for maybe an hour in some 3 day stretches when she's on nights and I'm working days.
Every person is different. My dad is fine with that type of work schedule, I wasn't. My mom was fine with that type of lifestyle, my wife isn't. My brother and I turned out okay, and while I wish my dad had been around more, I still feel that him spending his entire month home watching sports on TV was more of a problem than his work schedule. You won't know until you try, but just make sure you know what you'll give up if problems arise - preferably the new job. And be willing to compensate for it - focus on your family when you're at home, and save Slashdot for evenings when you're alone at work.
"commuter death" in google yields aprox 2M results. Don't do it man! long commutes can be DEADLY, no way you'll surive
In the consulting industry (which is where I work), many of us regularly work what we call a 5-4-3 schedule: 5 days of work, 4 days at the client site, 3 nights away from home. We fly out on Monday AM, and return on Thursday PM; working Friday from home.
This is very do-able, and needn't impact your family negatively. The trick is to stay in close touch when you're on the road, and to develop a routine. My family's routines are structured around the regular days I am away. I make sure that when I'm home I am really home; which means I don't get out much with my old friends in the neighbourhood... since I'm out during the week with my project team I'm not anxious to get out when I'm home.
One last point: your spouse has to buy into this 100% before you commit to it.
However, I wouldn't even consider it now. Here are some factors to consider:
- Children. Do you have children? Do you want to have children? If so, then you need to think very carefully about how that's going to play out. Young children especially will grow very quickly if you don't have daily contact.
- Is this a permanent thing? After about six months of this, both my wife and I were ready for it to be over. I was able to make a telecommuting arrangement, but the nature of the work (computer systems troubleshooting) and the nature of the company (major, national company with 10's of thousands of employees) allowed that. What's your exit strategy?
- How stable is your marriage? While it was okay for us, when I worked (bi-vocationally) as a minister in a military town I saw way too many women who would fall into adultery when their husband was away for months at a time. And we won't even get into what soldiers in remote locations do. (Call me old-fashioned, but I happen to think that adultery is wrong on either side of the equation.)
- Can you handle it? It can get really lonely being away from home like that. You're not in the "remote" location often enough to form roots, and you're away from home often enough that friendships tend to be compromised. It's not just your wife, it's you too.
I could probably list more, but the bottom line is that this is not (necessarily) the end of the world, but you definitely need to think hard about whether it's what you want in life. I would personally not advise it unless your marriage is stable, you trust your wife (i.e. you won't be concerned about her having outside relationships--which can be bad whether she's having them or not) and you have no small children. But it will have to be your call."He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
But that is me.. I have heard that there are some people who enjoy that much travel. The last one that I knew was a Republican who was raised by a nanny and had no problems raising his kids by a nanny. Personally, I think that that kind of parenting is more like a sperm doner that pays child support.
Having a family or someone at home and traveling that much, you have to ask yourself, ( IMHO ) do you have to travel to support your family? If the answer is no, then the question is, do you love you job more than your family and which is more important to you?
Something to keep in mind though. If you invest in highspeed internet and some really good quality web cams ( Quickcams now have 1.3 Mpxl versions out ) you can do that much travelling and do video conferencing with your family when you are away.
Just my feeling though
Only 'flamers' flame!
Does slashdot hate my posts?
I work 3rd shift on a "SSMTW" schedule for a Telecom/ISP Which Shall Remain Nameless. I will call it Tiswsrncom. I live in a fantastic community, a small New England town better known for its culture, comforts and conveniences than its proximity to anywhere you can make money for knowing what "ls -laF" does. So, I commute 45mins each way, 1.5 hours total daily, while speeding, to get to a job that's a long ways away from being close to real money.
My S.O. is so totally not cool with this. For one, she wants me awake during the day on the weekends, especially long weekends. For another, she doesn't want to wake up from a nightmare to be greeted by an empty bed.
But she and I both realize that it's not going to be forever. I'm working where I am to put a roof over our heads in a very nice part of a very nice town, at a rate that would put us in a rat-infested hovel closer to a majot city. She's going to law school (or, in other cases, might be raising a kid or two, a fully acceptable full-time occupation, be you dad or mom), and I'm working for crap money at a crap job I have to drive halfway to Outer Mongolia to be near.
But here's the deal: in three years, I'll have either seniority or a new company paying me what I'm worth. My S.O. will be pulling down fast-track corporation money the closer she gets to her degree. This will mean a larger new house nearer to where she works, or where I work, or an enormous investment property right where we are, only I'll be there the whole weekend and all night as I go to day shift, and we'll enjoy our position.
The key is this: your job is an investment in future happiness. If it will bring you wealth and security for the next 30 years, do it. Your wife will understand... she won't be happy, not at all, but if she understands, deep down, what you're doing is for her and not something you're doing to her, you'll be ok.
If it will bring you strife, unhappiness, anguish and the misery of being alone, forever: go work for 7-11 and screw aerospace. The key is to explain how it will make the both of you deleriously happy for decades if you're unhappy, but mostly content, for a year or three.
Also, more practically, I sold my '69 Cadillac convertible, and bought something Asian with a 100k mile warranty and 35mpg. Sacrifices must be made, and I couldn't make it with a gas-guzzling, unreliable V8 pickup or luxo-barge.
SoupIsGood Food
"It's absolute madness to consult a bunch of random geeks on the internet about this. Your question doesn't relate to open source software or emerging technology; it's not news for nerds or anything for nerds."
OSS and emerging technology? The guy was probably looking for the words of wisdom from somebody who's gone and done something like this. Considering how big Slashdot is and considering the field he's in, the odds are pretty darned good that somebody who has actually done this would be able to respond. Slashdot's the perfect place for him to ask this question despite how 'obvious' it is to everybody else. I've worked with two or three people that have done exactly what this guy is describing. It's a pity I'm no longer in touch with them because I'm sure they'd have something more useful to say than "Derr der err fuh fuh fuh."
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
Traveling can be really hard on the marriage. Don't underestimate this. Be sure that is in solid ground first and foremost... We were married for about seven years before I became a road warrior, which helped some. It still was not easy. Due to my heavy travel, she ended up switching to a stay home Mom. (So much for having our cake and eating it too on the financial side. A few things help.)
Being willing to be a road warrior was a fast track in on the corporate side. It was fun to 'travel the world' the first six months, but the thrill wears off quickly. One hotel/restaurant/card table at a customer is the same as another. I kept my job, while others did not, so that is worth a fair bit of stability on the home front. Risk vs. rewards, I also made more than those who followed a track that got them home each night.
Another thing to think about is staying in shape. Very easy to move into the plus sizes when you dine in a restaurant every night. The clean plate club is not a good idea. Much more work than I ever thought it would be.
I try to strike a balance these days. A few weeks of heavy travel, followed by a couple of weeks close to home.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
Then 20 different threads are started exploring the possible reasons why this might not be possible.
Which is the entire point of Ask Slashdot: to exhaust the special cases so that each of us may learn about our own special case.
My dad was a commercial airline pilot. This meant that he was home for a few days a week and then would be gone for a few days at a time. Provided that it's a fairly predictable few days a week rather than a situation where you end up spending weeks away, it's not too bad. Besides, you'll have airline miles out the wazoo when you want to take the kids to Disney :)
Where you get into trouble is when you become a road warrior where you fly home on saturday and then fly out on sunday night or monday morning. If you live that kind of life, you're probably better off just filing for divorce in advance. I've known people who have tried to live that life where their home is an airline gate. It rarely works out.
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You're assuming a consistent destination. What if they are asking for the submitter to travel to different offices around the world?
Seriously, these types of jobs are for single people not people with families. Don't do it.
If you have a family that should come first. No job is worth destroying that.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
We all have different tolerance levels for this sort of thing. I probably wouldn't have done it six months ago, and right now I *know* I wouldn't do what you're describing. Not quite six months ago I took a job that required about a two hour commute each way (by road...I never would have dreamed to do such a thing by air!). I figured I could handle it every day, and be home to see the wife every night. She agreed, and was behind me 100%. Within a week, I was looking for a place to stay in the town where the job is. It's a seven day a week job (doing IT work to support natural gas exploration) and it had become very evident that the commute was going to wear me down. My wife even drove out to help me find a "crash pad." (And this was before the recent spike in gas prices too!) Now, I maybe make it home about every other weekend, if that. I'm in the process of going a whole month without going home (or, at least, not taking any days off) simply to save up time for a bigger vacation at the end of June. I still get to see the wife on the weekends (she drives out here), but believe it or not I still feel bad for going that long without seeing our damn cat! Bottom line, you must talk with your spouse for sure, and make sure he/she is OK with it. And even if they are, know that over time that dynamic can change (my wife now tends to get a little upset the night before I have to drive back out here sometimes). But at the same time, you can always look for something else. As for me, the resume is polished and I've been sniffing around for opportunities much closer to home. I can't imagine what this would have been like with a longer commute and/or an air commute -- I probably wouldn't have lasted even this long, even with the significant sums of money they're paying me. But, that said, I've still got the experience to show for it on the ol' resume.
Now, 16 years into it, I travel even more than that long-ago job required and, although we don't love it, we're at peace with it because we've got more shared history and shared stability together. So I guess I'd give you a classic consultant answer and say "it depends."
My disclaimer: We didn't have kids. There's no real way to make that much travel work with kids unless you make your peace with being the de facto equivalent of a divorced couple with visitation rights.
"It was a summer's tale: Just a boy, his Linux, and a head full of dreams..."
It works for them. Part of the reason is that their kids are old enough that being a "single parent" a few days a week isn't a burden for my sister, and he's involved enough in their lives when he's there. Whether it will work for someone else... really depends on the people involved. If the marriage is strained, something like this will probably break it. If not... ?
With that said, I've tried both a 1.5-hours/day-by-car commute, and now a 20-minutes/day-by-bicycle commute, and I consider my younger self insane for putting up with that much time behind the wheel.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
...and while the money was good, I deeply regret the year I spent so far away from my wife and newbord first child. I was home, but three nights a week I was on the other side of the state on a lucrative consulting gig.
So while I only worked a few days a week, making more money than I would at a full time job close to home, I missed that precious time full of firsts with my daughter. I will never get that time back again. It was an even bigger waste than going to see Star Wars Episode I in the theater, only stretched out over a year instead of just a couple of hours.
And no, moving wasn't a viable option. This was just a consulting gig and could have ended after two weeks or two months. And there was no other work to be had in that part of the state.
So now I've learned to do more with less, pass up jobs that sound good financially if I feel they will put an undue burden on my primary responsibilities (i.e. to my growing family), and I'm now happily working at a job that pays poorly only 7 miles from my home (but has other less tangible rewards).