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MS Four Points of Interoperability and Adobe

Andy Updegrove writes "Recently, spokespersons for Microsoft's standards group have been promoting 'design, collaboration and licensing' as alternatives, rather than supplements to, open standards. There's an important difference between an open standard and any of these ad hoc arrangements among companies, however, and that is the fact that with a standard, everybody knows that they can get what everybody else can get, and on substantially the same terms. With a de facto standard, that's not the case - as Microsoft itself found out last week when Adobe refused to offer the same deal on saving files in PDF form that Apple and OpenOffice enjoy."

12 of 274 comments (clear)

  1. Serves them right. by Mikachu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think Microsoft is just getting a taste of its own medicine. If you're going to try and monopolize a field, you should expect your competitors to fight back the same way.

    1. Re:Serves them right. by suv4x4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think Microsoft is just getting a taste of its own medicine. If you're going to try and monopolize a field, you should expect your competitors to fight back the same way.

      Serves them right :)? Don't be ridiculous. Adobe has more to lose by denying PDF support in Office than MS.

      The decision to support PDF was long delayed and we all knew it was because MS doesn't want to give PDF an edge in their own products, thus contributing further to the spread use of the format.

      This is why the decision to support PDF in 2007 was a surprise. But now that Adobe is acting like a spoiled brat, Microsoft will remove the PDF support.

      It's really amusing Adobe doesn't want Microsoft to support PDF, given Microsoft has prepared a quite capable PDF competitor itself called XML Paper Specification (XPS), with superior features to those found in PDF (since it's newer, I'm not saying PDF can't catch up of course)...

      Why the heck is this so familiar to me? Ah yea, I remember. Sun sued Microsoft for their Java support in Windows/IE. Microsoft removed (again) the support and we know where Java is today in terms of client-side browser applets.

      At the same time Microsoft has managed to spread wide their version of Java: .NET.

      Expect the same to happen with XPS.

    2. Re:Serves them right. by peragrin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep and I personally know of a 100 million dollars worth of presses that will only rip from PDF.

      If XPS is going to be worth anything, it needs to operate on more than just vista. Otherwise it's useless to those presses.

      So what's worth more several billion dollars for the printing industry who have for years used PDF to it's fullest or forcing that entire industry to change to something that isn't available to anyone other than MSFT. (hint the printing industry utilizes lot's of macs as well as windows machines)

      --
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    3. Re:Serves them right. by bmo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Adobe has more to lose by denying PDF support in Office than MS."

      Au contraire.

      Adobe is facing the same thing that Sun was facing with Java. Microsoft's strategy is to take a standard, be it an open standard or a commercial de-facto standard and change it in some way to make it ever so slightly incompatible. The people who use Microsoft's "new standard" find out that interoperating with real standards-following software is unreliable and that the only way to get "interoperability" is to buy more Microsoft licenses.

      I believe it's called "embrace, extend, and extinguish"

      Since Microsoft has a track record of doing this, Adobe's paranoia is entirely justified.

      "Sun sued Microsoft for their Java support in Windows/IE."

      Because Microsoft was throwing dead goats in the Java compatibility well. DuH.

      "Java is today in terms of client-side browser applets"

      Yeah, everywhere. It's called AJAX.

      Bad troll, no cookie.

      --
      BMO

    4. Re:Serves them right. by mdfst13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Yeah, everywhere. It's called AJAX."

      Uhm...you do realize that the J in AJAX stands for *Javascript* right? And that Javascript has *nothing* to do with Java (other than the name and a few similarities of syntax), right?

      I agreed with the rest of your post, but calling AJAX Java is clearly wrong.

      Btw, I suspect that the main reason why Microsoft was going to support PDF was to ease the transition from XPS. Microsoft would be able to talk to printers that understood *either* XPS or PDF. That would allow people to do their work in XPS, show it to others in small quantities in XPS, and then mass produce in PDF. If the mass produced PDF was inferior to the XPS samples, then that gives Microsoft leverage with the printers to switch to something XPS compatible.

      Now, Microsoft will have to spend a lot more money up front to get XPS support into hardware. In the beginning, Microsoft will offer brilliant tools and technical assistance to printer manufacturers who wanted to offer XPS support. In five to ten years, they will charge money to not display warnings that the device is not XPS certified.

      The real question is what's stopping them from doing that? It's only money. They have plenty. This is probably the correct decision for Adobe. However, Microsoft is still fully capable of moving into the market. It's just going to be a bit harder now.

  2. Re:save as file using ps printer, ps2pdf by Planesdragon · · Score: 4, Informative

    MS Office 2007 can do PDFs better than either the postscript route or OOo (sans any custom macros.) Not just a conversion of a postscript file, but a tagged and bookmarked PDF.

    I suspect that this is the part that Adobe is balking at -- that anyone would care and duplicate the beyond-standard work that they do with PDFmaker, to the point where someone with MS office really doesn't need to contact them anymore.

  3. Re:Maybe Adobe just got smart. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Not far fetched. Yes, it's "Adobe PDF format". But if MS decides that X has to be Y, it is. No matter what the originator of the format, even if he holds the patents to it, says. MS wants to read it this way, so it has to be read that way.

    Don't believe it? Try HTML.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Acrobat Falling? by Ironsides · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It seems like Acrobat is falling from it's peak. I know the PDF format is a defacto standard. However, the Adobe seems to be having problems on some fronts. One thing I've noticed, and I realize this is a loose correlation, is that when a company starts to fall it's products start to come with some interesting "features".

    Real Player: Naging upgrade notices whenver you didn't have the most recent version. Hard to find "free" version. Addware in the install.
    AIM has come with it's own supply of programs, ranging from advertising AOL Explorer to some programs it installed to play AIM mini games (I've forgoten which one since I uninstalled it a while ago, but it set off alerts in Ad-Aware)
    Yahoo!: Cluttered their home page with a whole bunch of adverts.

    Adobe: Acrobat Reader now tries to install Yahoo! Toolbar by default.

    Just seems like whenever a company starts bundling adds and addware programs with their software they start to fall from grace. Anyone have any other examples of software companies tanking like that?

    --
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  5. Re:What is the status of PDF then? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The PDF Specification is freely available to anyone. Adobe can not stop implementers of the spec from creating PDF documents. They have two potential legal arguments that they can use:
    1. That they had a prior contract with MS, which MS are now violating. This might have been signed way-back when Microsoft wanted Adobe's Acrobat Distiller to support MS Office.
    2. That Microsoft, by implementing the features of their software in Office, is abusing their de facto monopoly in the office suite market.
    The first argument would only work if such a contract existed, and the second only works if they can find a court that Microsoft can't just buy off (see Netscape for how well that worked in the past). It sounds just like sabre rattling to me. If Adobe decide to make the next version of PDF require an implementers license, then I suspect they will find a competing standard exists very quickly. Or people just stick with PDF 1.6; I don't think I've used any features that were introduced after 1.4 at the very latest and I create PDFs regularly.
    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  6. Microsoft Sandbox Full of Pinworm(TM) by Crash+Culligan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There's two very good reasons for Adobe denying easy PDF functionality to Microsoft Office users. One is obvious and good only for Adobe, but the other is subtle and better for everybody in the long run.

    The obvious reason? Adobe wants to be able to sell Acrobat Pro to its users, and if Microsoft starts bundling the functionality in Office, Office users will have less reason to buy Acrobat or the Creative Suite.

    Note: I said less reason, not no reason. See, Acrobat is more than Distiller. The full Acrobat program will let you take those PDFs you've created by whatever means, resequence the pages, add footnotes... organize the whole document. You could do that in Word, but you could end up with a single huge document, and Word isn't happy working that way. The full kit lets you shuffle pages, up to and including replacing single pages in a PDF if you must.

    The other reason has to do with Microsoft's hamfisted, even predatory way of "supporting" other peoples' standards. How does that sequence go, again? Embrace, Extend, Extinguish, Extort? Picture the Microsoft PDF format, in the same ridiculing manner that you'd consider Microsoft RTF, Microsoft HTML, and Microsoft XML: misshapen parodies of their former, more open, more rational selves. By denying Microsoft the opportunity to implement the standard, Adobe protects it for themselves and anyone else who adheres to it.

    --
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  7. Re:.doc vs .pdf by jthill · · Score: 4, Insightful
    How much do you want to bet Microsoft flatly refused to bind themselves to writing .pdf's readable by code implementing only Adobe's spec?

    Play out the scenarios. Ask yourself what Adobe could usefully say in that situation. Microsoft can't openly vandalize .pdf just yet, for reasons we all know too well, so this move just lets them make Adobe look bad. It's a set up for later. It's a damn shame all Adobe's other options are worse.

    --
    As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
  8. What's the real story, I wonder? by scdeimos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft seems to be playing the wounded duck at the moment, trying to convince the public that Adobe won't allow them to implement PDF creation as a standard feature in their Office 2007 and Vista environments.

    However, Adobe has published the Portable Document Format specifications since 1993, encouraging developers to create applications that both read and *write* PDF files. From page seven of the PDF Reference, Fifth Edition (v1.6, PDF format) we see the following:

    Adobe will enforce its copyright. Adobe's intention is to maintain the integrity of the Portable Document Format standard. This enables the public to distinguish between the Portable Document Format and other interchange formats for electronic documents. However, Adobe desires to promote the use of the Portable Document Format for information interchange among diverse products and applications. Accordingly, Adobe gives anyone copyright permission, subject to the conditions stated below, to:
    • Prepare files whose content conforms to the Portable Document Format
    • Write drivers and applications that produce output represented in the Portable Document Format
    • Write software that accepts input in the form of the Portable Document Format and displays, prints, or otherwise interprets the contents
    • Copy Adobe's copyrighted list of data structures and operators, as well as the example code and PostScript language function definitions in the written specification, to the extent necessary to use the Portable Document Format for the purposes above

    My guess would be that in typical Microsoft style, they are probably wanting to create their own incompatable extensions to PDF and Adobe has stepped-in and said no to them.