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The Living Dilbert?

AirmanTux asks: "Next march I will be separating from the US Air Force, after six years wearing 'the uniform', working in the closest thing to IT that the military has. For certain reasons, I've come to the conclusion that I will be more effective in serving the US public out of uniform than in it. There seems to be a common belief that the civilian sector is just as disorganized and mismanaged as the uniformed services. Do you think this is true? Are there any 'honest' places to work any more (where promotions/awards are based on work preformed and bureaucracy, and politics aren't encouraged to supplant the 'mission), or has America become one big living Dilbert strip?"

11 of 459 comments (clear)

  1. usajobs.com by geekylinuxkid · · Score: 5, Informative

    did you try searching for a GS job at usajobs.com? I plan on getting a GS job when my enlistment is over. if you have a clearance try clearancejobs.com. hope that helps.

    1. Re:usajobs.com by paeanblack · · Score: 5, Insightful

      is there any good jobs with job security left anywhere at all ? Or has globalization eaten them all ?

      "Job security" is just another insurance policy deducted from your wages. While you may not see the line-item on your pay stub, the cost is very real and very significant.

      If getting paid what you are worth is important to you, accept that you can be replaced at whim. If you want job security, be prepared to work for half of your potential wages. "Job security" just means your employer is getting a great bargain and can afford to tolerate oversight and shiftlessness on your behalf.

      Rephrase your question as "are there any high-yield, zero-risk investments left anywhere at all?" if you need a rational perspective. Globalization has nothing to do with what you seek.

  2. No. by avm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Short answer: No.

    Longer answer: Not really...there are places where performance and ability advance, but they are few and far between indeed, and primarily in small establishments. To most employers, employees are disposable commodity, a necessary evil that is to be pruned or removed at the earliest possible convenience. Management has become the science of keeping up appearances, with many managers being completely ignorant of the trade they are in, or the tasks of the workers they supposedly manage. Color me a pessimist, but the way I see it, Dilbert has gone from a sarcastic parody to a photorealistic portrait of the American workforce.

  3. Ex-Marines's Opinion by gasmonso · · Score: 5, Interesting

    After 4 years in the Marines I was ready to get out to the "real" world... a world free of BS and well paying cool jobs. Well I got my degree in Comp Sci and was ready to face the world. Upon getting a job with a large corporation, I was amazed at the amount of BS there. It made the military look like an efficient & well-oiled machine. After 5.5 years now in the corporate world I ahve come to one conclusion... you alone can't make a damn difference. Either you will like it or you won't. I have finally realized that being my own boss is the way to go and thus I am pursuing that vigorously.

    As for you my friend, take a walk through the corporate jungle and see if its your kinda thing. You can always do your own thing!

    http://psychicfreaks.com/
  4. The world is not a Dilbert strip... by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If you work in a big corporation, chances are that there's an official organization chart, with personnel at all sorts of levels. Unofficially, there's a complicated web of an organization chart that goes on behind the scenes. People talk to one another. Some people work hard and do their best to do a good job, but don't get anywhere in life. Other people don't do such a great job, but spend their time figuring out how the game works at their particular organization, and then play the game and move up the corporate ladder. This is a problem if you're the former, and an advantage if you're the latter.

    But that can be avoided! If, instead of working at a large company, you seek out a small fledgling business to work at, you will find that the benefits are proportional to the results and not to politics. A small business, especially one with 20 employees at the most, cannot afford to play these political games. These businesses are usually owner-operated, and the owner cares about moving forward in life. That's why he is taking the tremendous risk and creating jobs for his employees. These organizations usually have one boss, around whom the whole business revolves. There might be one other manager, but usually, everyone runs around the boss asking questions and finding out what he wants them to do. This is the perfect business to work in, if you're a people-person. You go over there, and start at whatever level you can get. Since there aren't thousands of employees, the owner of the business will quickly see how you learn and operate. If you do a good job, you'll find yourself earning a lot of trust and capability in the company. Your opinions will be heard. And if you can be a team member, not just by doing your job, but by learning a bit about everyone's job, learning how the owner thinks, what he wants to accomplish, etc., you can take a lot of that pressure off the owner.

    By doing all of this, you can help the business grow in terms of profit, which will make it grow into a larger company. Eventually, that means the office will become a Dilbert strip, or something out of Office Space. You'll have a Lumberg working under you a few levels down. But who cares? At this point, you will have helped the U.S. economy, you will have created jobs, you will have grown the company into something successful and long lasting, and you will be at a high position at the top, earning a high salary, and no doubt owning a good portion of the stock. You'll be laughing all the way to the bank.

  5. Air Force IT by Mr.+Joe+Himself · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I happen to be in the Air National Guard currently and am well on my way to making it my career, though not in IT. I have my Master's Degree in Computer Science, and had the privledge of doing my research work with the Desert Research Institute in Reno, Nevada. I can tell you with a great amount of certainty that the driving forces between government and public IT are worlds apart. In Air Force/Government IT, there is little motivation to strive to learn more skills. Pretty much anyone can enlist into a technical field and they're all put through the same relatively short, simple training. In my opinion, they're amateurs on an unjustified power trip. There is significantly higher motivation for learning new skills in the public sector because it will actually make a difference for the individual. When you become invaluable, your status and pay reflect that, generally, in the public sector. Definetly not so in government positions. I do completely agree that an individual with a strong desire to learn and expand skills and knowledge can be of immense use in the public sector. However it takes a supernatural kind of driving force to penetrate the mundane aura of government IT.

  6. Ex-Military IT staff described in a nutshell. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In my opinion, they're amateurs on an unjustified power trip.

    First of all, my hat's off to all who have served our country in the military, but something is very, very strange and wrong going on with the way the AF and Army train their IT folks and what quality of actual usable knowledge, experience and attitudes those people have when they leave the service and apply for their first civilian IT jobs after leaving the service. I used to be a hiring manager for an organization that primarily did systems integration, installations and support for state and local government and we interviewed a lot of newly ex-mil IT applicants and the above statement generally hits the nail right on the head. Of course there were exceptions to the rule, but by and large it seemed like most of these applicants got very little broad-coverage training in the real IT world, but instead were all pidgeon-holed into little isolated sub-sections of IT training and knowledge without being able to be immediately competant at the "big picture" without substantial re-training and what I'd call "reverse brainwashing". Yet every one of them thought they knew it all better than everyone else, and one of the most common answers in the interview questions about where they saw themselves in 3 to five years of working for us was "to become the senior manager/director of the whole IT department"... in other words to run off the existing boss and take over. Wrong answer.

    Amateurs on an unjustified power trip indeed.

    We did hire a few of these over the years and they turned out to be some of the worst IT employees we ever had. A recurring theme was a lack of respect for proper software licensing. One particular worst offender would take a master copy of the full corporate MS Office Professional edition and install it on every desktop he touched regardless of whether the customer had purchased the full version for that machine or not. Of course the end-users loved it, but when the tech was confronted with what he was doing he said that he knew he would not be the one getting in trouble for it, but rather his boss would and the sooner he could get the boss in trouble or fired, the better chance he thought he'd have to move up, take over and "rule with an iron fist".

    I'm posting A/C because now my company considers ex-military IT techs at the very bottom of the list when hiring due to too many problems we've had with them in the past. We actively discriminate against them due to getting burned too many times.

    The best quality IT folks we've been hiring the past couple years now come from two radically different groups of people. The first group is the young Computer Science geeks right out of college who are still trainable/mouldable before they can pick up too many bad habits, and the second groups is older college degreed people (late 30's to early-mid 40's) who have had one non-IT professional career for a while (but were above-average proficient as technology users) and then have gone back to school to get their CompSci or MIS degrees and have changed careers to the IT field.

    1. Re:Ex-Military IT staff described in a nutshell. by ScottFree2600 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I understand that in the Air Force you don't advance quickly, and I've always been amazed at how bureaucratic it is (and they seem to celebrate that!). I'm former Navy, been out about 18 months.
      I made E-7 in 8 years, and left at 10 because it got political and I had Seniors that were lying weasels. I figured that they needed me more than I needed them, so... Hung up the uniform.

      I'll have the last laugh as the morons who ruined my last year in the Navy will be retiring soon and will discover that they are indeed "unemployable". It's sad to think about how many honest, bright eyed, motivated Sailors these jerks hosed, but american business isn't much different.

      The Navy is outsourcing any job where you might actually learn something and lowering standards at the same time. So there little reason to join the service to learn anything anymore. I tried to stay away from the Navy brand of IT. It was full of know it all contractors who got lame Microsoft Certs from cram schools. These folks are worse than clueless, they're dangerous.

      I'm making about 4 times as much money as when I was wearing green stuff, I have 8 people working for me now and manage an amazing operation. The whole place is about 125 people. Life is better.

      Here's what I learned in the military:
      1. Don't work for anybody who's dishonest or a mental case
      2. IT is a terrible job (particularly if it's a windows house)
      3. Avoid large organizations (especially government contractors)
      4. If you're ethical and have a brain, American business will depress you and rot your soul. Companies (like the military) have no loyalty to you, regardless of whether you are loyal to them.
      5. The military is full of good people and some "unemployables". I am always fascinated by what happens to people when they come in, and what they do ("for real") when they get out. ("Welcome to Home Depot" or "Would you like the combo?")
      6. Most certifications (except perhaps Cisco) are meaningless, and many in the military seem to think that once they "have the ticket punched" they are experts. WRONG! You need some actual experience and an open mind before anybody should take you seriously. Can you solve REAL problems?
      7. Avoid companies whose HR departments hire techies. These people have no idea what they're looking at. Degrees, certs and the like have little to do with actual performance or potential.
      Many will argue against what I just said, but they likely "drank the Kool-Aid" and got the degrees or certs. The real question is "Can they count on you to consistantly make them money?"

      Military people are probably better than the average slacker in this department, as they do bathe (in most cases) and will show up for work.

      Best of luck to you! I miss the comaraderie, and it's annoying to have to choose and buy clothes, but hey... Air Force uniforms suck anyway, so... You're probably better off! Oh, and don't join the reserves. These days "Reserves" means "Active duty" (Can you say "recall?").

  7. Re:It's not as bad as Dilbert. by DSP_Geek · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not only big outfits: I worked at a startup where the VP of Engineering sprouted pointy hair three months after hiring me. On the other hand, some large outfits manage to combat idiocy fairly well, so it's really about the particular employer.

    In job interviews I tell the questioner they're being interviewed just as much as I am - the ones who get offended are likely to be idiots about other things, whereas the folks who understand it's about matching styles have a good chance of understanding my approach to the job.

    You can smell someplace will be a losing proposition. Here's an example. I was called into one office to speak with the hiring manager, but when HR heard about it, they came over with a six page form to fill out before I could talk with the guy. Didn't make a damned bit of difference whether all the data was already on my resume, paperwork had to be filled out, and at the bottom it even said "See resume not acceptable response". I scratched that in anyway since I had other things to do, the interview went swimmingly well, the engineering manager was ready to make me an offer, but after that nothing. Nada. Not hello, not goodbye, merry christmas, fuck you, nothing. I can only suspect HR scotched the followup, and if HR can override an engineering hire I wouldn't care to work there anyway because the priorities are FUBAR. Turns out my gut check was right: they went tits-up eighteen months later because of inept management.

    There are other cases, like the hostile HR guy who smelled of liquor at 11 am, the place which desperately solicited resumes then couldn't be arsed to answer email when I followed up a week later, or the guy who wasn't at his desk because there was no way he would say yes so he passive-aggressivated his way out of the problem. Each one of these was a huge warning sign, and in retrospect I'm way better off for avoiding these gigs. See, in civilian life, you can somewhat choose your CO, so reading the organisation before you get involved is a useful way to minimise potential asshattery.

  8. The TAO of Dilbert by Sonyturbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think I have a pretty good perspective on the "Dilbert factor". I have worked for Chevron (9 years), IBM (3 months) and McKinsey (2 years) and was 1 degree of separation from Scott Adams when he was at Pacific Bell. So there's my big company experience.

    On the other side, I am the owner of a 15 person IT consulting firm which services only companies of 10 to 200, and so I have worked with over 50 companies of this size - in addition to owning one.

    Here is the simple truth of the matter:

    If a small company runs on politics, rather than business sense, it goes out of business. Yes there are exceptions - owner has a huge chunk of cash to burn - but this is very largely true. So there is very little b.s. in small business.

    In large businesses, sad but true, it becomes very very hard to distinguish the true business contribution of one person from another. Also, the consequence of a good / bad decision may take years to come to light. So, whether people say so or not, you are judged on how well you fit into the culture. If you know this, understand it and accept it, you will do fine. If you act like a typical engineer and say "but my idea was better", you will be miserable. Instead of being upset at the fact that the MBA's are running the show, sit back and ask yourself why that is. If you are as smart as you think you are - you will figure it out.

    The fact is that the success of big business depends on people working together. And this quality, one of fitting in, is easier to pick out than what the true ROI of converting all those Windows servers to Linux is.

    Think really, really hard on this. Don't reject reality and say "it stinks" - use a bit of ju jitsu - accept reality, understand why this reality exists, and use that understanding in an effective way to achieve your personal vision of success.

    A way of thinking

    This reality stinks
    It shouldn't be this way
    I can't affect what happens

    A better way of thinking

    What is really going on here?
    It is this way, why is that so?
    I can affect how I react to what happens.

    Do this and you may be very happy at a big business since you will learn how to rise within it to the point that you have real influence. If you don't understand this you will be frustrated regardless of where you work.

  9. Don't Knock "Soft Skills" by patio11 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I once knew a very talented engineer (also my supervisor) who was consistently less supported by management than his coworker Bob (not his real name). Bob was also a very talented engineer, and Bob had essentially infinite budget any time he snapped his fingers. Do you know why? Because Bob understood the rules of the game and played it like a master. Bob was aggressive about keeping his appointment book in order, was never late to a meeting, and actually bothered keeping a Rolodex with contacts inside and outside the organization. When Bob was at the meeting, rather than pretending it was a waste of his time he listened, discussed, argued, and lost the argument sometimes. Bob was as comfortable in Powerpoint as he was in his C compiler -- probably better, actually. When they'd explain project proposals my supervisor would talk about Zipf distributions, locality of reference, and cache misses and Bob would talk about "maximizing search outcomes".

    When Bob got his project greenlighted when my supervisor did not, because Bob was capable of making a business case for it at a meeting chaired by the guy he'd been grooming for months, was that B.S? Seems to me like thats "creative use of resources". You can either continue to laugh ruefully at the world and scorn "small talk" and "politics" and "useless meetings and reports and that bureacratic "#$"%" or you can be like Bob.