A New Era in CSS Centric Design?

byrnereese wonders: "The media never fails to point out how the age of Web Two-Point-Oh has helped to drive the adoption of Ajax into the Internet industry, but rarely does anyone point out that it has also help popularize CSS-centric design practices -- the Slashdot redesign being only one example. But now that we, as programmers, feel comfortable ditching the use of font tags, finally grok div's, understand absolute vs relative positioning, and can work around all of IE's CSS bugs, what is the next step for HTML and CSS? Several standards or conventions seem to be coming to forefront: one is building standards around the HTML structure itself so that wildly different designs can be achieved via style-sheets alone (e.g. CSS Zen Garden and The Style Contest), the other being the standardization of CSS classes (e.g. micro-formats) so that semantic meaning can be derived from the class name we use to label our content. Both show an interesting potential for how this technology is evolving. So here is the question for all the visionaries out there: where is this taking us? What's next for HTML? What's next for CSS?"

Comments

I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[CRCulver]

Every time there is a story on CSS here, we always get a bunch of people who say CSS is useless and that table tags are the only way to design a site. I'm always amused by people who have been living under a rock (or haven't updated their skill sets) for the last couple of years. CSS Zen Garden should stand as solid proof that CSS works, and can produce some gorgeous and highly usable results (and check out the Zen Garden's Zen of CSS Design ) for a description of general aesthetic.

CSS is broken in some obscure ways, I've encountered some limitations with styling elements with a certain xml:lang in documents whose body tag has a different xml:lang, but for 99% of sites, it's ready now.

Re:I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/holygrail

Re:I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

. CSS Zen Garden [csszengarden.com] should stand as solid proof that CSS works

No, it doesn't. Seeing as web programming is my job, I can tell yout that tables - horrible as they may be - make a better layout tool than CSS. I can't tell you how many times I have to tell graphic designers that one of the elements of their design (like equal length columns) is a major pain in the neck to implement in CSS. Of course, IE's horribly buggy CSS2 support doesn't help, but there are so many things in CSS that seem - well - stupid. CSS was designed around an idealistic view of the web - a web where pages were designed by web developers. In the real world, this is rarely the case - it is the graphic designers who lay out the page, and the web programmers get stuck trying to implement their design. CSS utterly fails in that regard.

Sure, you can make a design that works well using CSS - zen garden and countless other sites prove this. But there are so many things that were simple with tables that become unnecessarily complex with CSS.

Most developers simply give up and resort to absolute positioning or nesting tags. Neither is substantially better than the tables that they replaced - and in many cases, they are substantially worse.

There are other elements of CSS that are utterly stupid. Why should padding be excluded from "width"? Or, for that matter, the border? Why is it so hard to make equal-height columns?

Is CSS better than what it replaced? In terms of element style - borders, fonts, colors, etc. - it's substantially better. But CSS sucks at layout.

Re:I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[BalanceOfJudgement]

But there are so many things that were simple with tables that become unnecessarily complex with CSS.

This is why tables were popularized in the first place. The lay-person who just wanted to throw up a personal web page had neither the time, nor the inclination to learn CSS, so they resorted to the easiest possible manner of positioning things the way they wanted: tables.

Creating layouts with CSS was never easy, which has always been exactly the problem.

But there are problems with table-based designs, first and foremost being user presentation, in the form of increased load times for the increased amount of text, AND because browsers can't render the table until the entire thing is downloaded. I have seen some website that don't come up for quite sometime because their entire 226kb layout is contained within a single outer table, so it doesn't show up on the screen until the whole page is downloaded.

The second major problem with table-based designs is accessibility: screen readers for the blind don't like tables very much. I don't know about the newest versions of programs like JAWS, but the ones a few years ago would read every table element, including empty ones that only contained spacer images. Not a very user-friendly experience.

Most developers simply give up and use tables because it's faster. This is ALWAYS the motivating factor in businesses where time is money - and consequently why so few commercial websites are built using CSS. It takes longer to learn. But once you learn it, things that are at first "unnecessarily complex" become easy, just as tables are easy now because everyone does it that way.

"Easy" in the end has less to do with syntax and language, and more to do with how widely the technology is used, because the more people use CSS, the better the documentation for it will be, and the more websites will show you how to do simple things like a 3 column, full height layout (which I know how to do; I have a basic template I always use when starting a new page for this layout, so I don't have to redo it every time).

Re:I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[Dracos]

Whether or not tables are a better (I think you mean easier) layout tool, they are not meant to be used for anything other than (gasp) tabular data. Using a table for anything else is bad semantics, page bloat, and, let's face it, primitive.

In the last three years, every site I've attempted to rebuild in CSS from tables I've been able to do with 90% accuracy. It's not only a different layout tool, it's a different layout model. You can't expect tables to CSS to be a 1:1 conversion, there will be compromises along the way.

I've been in the same situation with graphic designers. The problem is that they think the web works like paper, where the design is a monolithic entity that simply exists. They have little to no understanding of what HTML and CSS is, does, or how it works. The concept that their full screen 50 layer photoshop file will be chopped up, gutted of text, and reassembled later is entirely beyond them. Long time print designers make the absolute worst web designers, I've found.

Another part of the problem is browser support for CSS, especially the various values for the display property (especially table, table-row, table-cell, inline-block), and the position property. Position is mostly misunderstood, anyway: "relative" is not the default value, "static" is. See my sig for my thoughts on browser CSS support.

Too many people try to wrestle with CSS to make it do what they want. This is most often the fault of a poorly thought out document structure combined with a poor understanding of CSS. Let the document work for you, I always say.

CSS is vastly better than what was before: nested tables full of font tags. CSS is more flexible, concise, and clean. Is it perfect? Not in its current form, but maybe the next version.

Equal height columns are easy: height: 100%;. Too bad IE can't get this right unless you declare the height of the parent element. Hate the implementation, not the specification.

Re:I'm sure the naysayers will be here shortly

[Bogtha]

Three-column layouts are easy.

body {
display: table;
width: 100%;
}

#header, #footer {
display: table-row;
}

#foo, #bar, #baz {
display: table-cell;
width: 33.3%;
}

Tell me that CSS is broken and I know you'll be trolling. We all know it's not CSS that's broken, but browsers. Browsers have bugs. Web developers have to work around them. This is nothing new. Table layouts themselves are one big bug workaround hack. You say you don't want browser-specific hacks in the CSS, but the CSS only has to be written once. I want to avoid hacks in the HTML, which is one of the reasons why I choose CSS layouts.

Whatever is next ...

[xmas2003]

Slashdot will adopt in 5 years ... ;-)

Simple answer

[kennygraham]

What's next?

XHTML2 and CSS3

But XHTML2 can't be a reality until IE can parse XHTML, or IE loses a lot more market share. (no, it can't, it can parse pretend XHTML that's served as text/html, and you can't serve XHTML 1.1 or XHTML2 as text)

"A good carpenter doesn't blame his tools"

[Assaulted_Peanut]

Like any tool, CSS can be abused. Absolute positioning is a powerful tool that is easy to misuse in WWW environments because it tends to be used with pixel units to create print-centric, rigid designs that can't be scaled/zoomed (e.g. in pre-IE7 browsers, Firefox). Pixels may be great for kiosks and other fixed width/height environments but there're not good for use with current mainstream browsers - but use 'em' and 'percentage' units and you can automatically create designs that resize to the viewport and the user's preferred font size without the problems you describe.

Something I advise developers new to CSS is to avoid using absolute positioning until they clearly understand the side-effects of applying it and to generally treat it as a last resort in the CSS toolbox - kind of like 'if-all-else-fails try the sledgehammer'. With a well structured document as a foundation (headings, lists, et al) then a good understanding of floats, margins and clear can do most layout tricks for you, but if there's no other way but to use absolute positioning then use it with 'em' and 'percentage' units again to keep it scaling. Granted that this is difficult to do if developers use todays WYSIWYG authoring tools - almost by definition.

Not a giant step backwards by any means, developers of problematic sites just need to think a bit more about the best use of the tools in the CSS toolbox and a bit more about designs that scale. After-all, it's possible to create rigid layout problems with table-based design too.

Re:2 to 3 more years of the same, then a shift

[suv4x4]

HTML has been deprecated for six years. XHTML finally got rid of HTML's quirky syntax and bad semantics.

That's funny. Because XHTML is a carbon copy of HTML 4.01 as a dialect of XML. All that got "cleaner" is that XHTML uses a subset of SGML (XML), where HTML is a SGML dialect.

The semantics of both are totally the same. You've been brainwashed.

XHTML2 has some competition, however, in the form of HTML5. While I can understand frustration at the glacial speed of the W3C at producing new documents, WHATWG seeks to damage most of the progress made since HTML 4.01.

W3C says "do as I say". They can't even implement what they recommend properly. They tried, with Amaya, and the project is now dead (not to mention it was always one buggy and slow piece of software).

WHATWG catters to the needs of the web developers and web users TODAY. They are formed by browser makers and web developers who have feet firmly planted on the ground as to what constitutes a semantic and functional web we can actually use.

W3C unwillingness to cooperate brought us the table hacks, and now the CSS hacks. We, web devs, always have to use "hacks" of some sort, not just because of bad browser implementation, but because if plain defunctional standards..

Then come zealots who claim W3C can't be wrong, refuse to join a discussion and declare WHATWG is a bunch of terrorists who want to blow up the internet.

Good thing is, while zealots are pretty vocal, the rest of the practical folks are quietly working on making a better Internet with WHAWG.

The canvas element and SVG bring new ways of displaying graphical stuff to be interacted with

The canvas element was invented by Safari and incorporated in WHATWG's HTML5. I though they work hard on wrecking the Internet?

the table layout trolls and Dreamweaver monkeys will be two tech generations behind

The current generation of Dreamweaver produces strict XHTML with CSS based layouts. I bet ranting at fukll power didn't leave you time to see how the world around you adapts to changes.