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Net Neutrality or Not?

Reverse Gear writes "CNN has two commentaries about net neutrality with quite opposing viewpoints. Craig Newmark discusses how the legislation passed by the U.S. House of Representatives would efficiently remove net neutrality, while Mike McCurry writes about how the big companies should pay their fair share for the physical upgrade of the internet. From Newmark's commentary: 'Telecommunication companies already control the pipes that carry the Internet into your home. Now they want control which sites you visit and how you experience them. They would provide privileged access for themselves and their preferred partners while charging other businesses for varying levels of service.'"

17 of 352 comments (clear)

  1. They already pay their "fair share". by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Google pays for the bandwidth it uses.

    I pay for the bandwidth I use.

    1. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by pjhenley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the problem (from the telco's point of view) is that Google is paying only one company for the bandwidth it uses. Wouldn't it be nice if they could all get a share by threatening to throttle Google's traffic on their networks? Not only that, you can squeeze out any small-time competition from the market by threatening to take away a big chunk of Google's users if they sign with a smaller company for bandwidth. Only why stop at Google, you could do it to anyone! Heck, maybe even political parties? (So, probably not but the telcos would love to do it anyways, I'm sure.)

    2. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are just pissed that google get a bulk discount and you don't.

      Google are just as free as you to shop around for a provider and as long as that provider supplies a service and gives backbone bandwidth to the paying customer then what has it got to do with anyone else.

      If the home user ISP isn't making money then thats not googles fault, but a problem with the ISP's business plan, it has no right to complain about content further upstream.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    3. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by GigsVT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Suppose I'm Google's ISP. I notice you start throttling traffic to Google. A have a very simple solution. No more peering for you. You deal with angry customers that can't get to Google.

      Nothing will come of this. It's all bullshit "what ifs". There's no such thing as a "good new law".

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    4. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by GigsVT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regulating companies that have any form of a monopoly (I literally have one choice for broadband) is not a bad thing.

      Agreed.

      When the phone monopolies were granted

      A mistake.

      The government realized that a monopoly has no interest in reaching every consumer,

      A consequence of that mistake.

      Hence they made universal access a requirement of granting the monopoly.

      A bad new law to band-aid over that mistake.

      Until we have total competition in all aspects of the network

      That won't happen. The last mile is a natural monopoly. I believe that localities should own last mile media. Any interested party should be able to rent use of said media.

      That will solve your "one choice for broadband" problem nicely. The only place there isn't competition is the last mile. People seem to be extrapolating their situation onto the Internet in general.

      I can tell you when you go shopping for a T1 or T3 or more, you get to choose from at least 10 ISPs. There's plenty of competition there.

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      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    5. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by balls199 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The whole "Hands off the internet" campaign tries to frame the issue as who should pay for the expansion of the internet, consumers or Amazon/Ebay/Google/etc.

      Where does Amazon/Ebay/Google/etc. get their money from? That's right, consumers.

      If Amazon and Ebay have to pay to reach consumers, then they will be forced to raise their prices. This, of course, means the consumers will still be paying for the expansion of the internet, only indirectly. The only problem with this is if Amazon and Ebay have to charge so much more to reach consumers, that it's cheaper for consumers to buy from brick and morter stores. Consumers may stop shoping online altogether, and Amazon and Ebay risk going out of business.

      Google is only sightly more complicated. Google gets it money from advertising, so it would have to charge more for ads. Any business that want's to continue advertising through Google, will have to charge more for their goods and services, and you have the same problem as above.

      The real question of who should pay for the expansion of the internet isn't between consumers and Amazon/Ebay/Google/etc, but consumers (directly) and consumers (indirectly). The answer to this question will determine whether internet innovation will continue as it has, or stop and the internet will become just another way to watch TV and Movies.

    6. Re:They already pay their "fair share". by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One other thing, if I am downloading movies, then generally I will be downloading from peers using home connections themselves, by your rules they should have to pay this ransom to MY isp as well as paying their own ISP for connectivity.

      How do you propose to get money from those people?

      If the American ISPs get their way, how would you proportion the money to all the ISPs that you make connections with?

      Bottom line,
      You pay to connect to the internet and your monthly fee should cover all bandwidth charges you make according to your contract terms.
      If your ISP has oversold themselves I hope they go out of business because they do not have a sustainable business model.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
  2. Both make points, but neither gets it... yet. by Rod,+Hot · · Score: 5, Funny

    Of the two, Craig Newmark makes the better argument... however, neither explains how we have already PAID for the access to the sites we visit. However, the BEST argument I have seen so far is the ninja from "Ask a Ninja" http://www.askaninja.com/news/2006/05/11/ask-a-nin ja-special-delivery-4-net-neutrality

  3. Politics sucks by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Removing net neutrality might make sense, if the telecoms weren't monopolies that is. If they weren't monopolies they would be competing with each other to provide the best service to the customer, and thus wouldn't want to charge content providers for bandwidth (possibly at all), since they would want their customers to desire their services, and they would only desire their services if they could access content. However as it stands the telecommunications companies are monopolies, so there is little motivation for them to provide the best service. As a monopoly they simply want to charge as much as the market will bear, and if Google is making money off ads clearly they can afford to pay more to the telecoms. The fact that laws doing away with net neutrality might be passed is sad evidence how much our politicians are in the pockets of big companies.

    1. Re:Politics sucks by Qzukk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I hope no net neutrality passes.

      I agree. The idea these people are putting forward (not just telcos, several cable ISPs are in on it as well!) is a horrible, horrible one, which I hope to never see in action.

      But if it does come to it, I hope the content providers are ready. Google should not pay, and simply post a front page explaining that "Your ISP is reducing your access to us". Other companies that bill their users should pay, and pass that cost directly to the users in the form of a line item "verizon (or whatever) charge *" with a "* please call verizon customer service at 1-888-whatever for questions concerning this charge".

      If the content providers stand up for themselves and provide the customers with education about the situation (god knows the ISPs won't, despite all the idiots insisting that some fairy hand will magically make everything better) then we still have a chance at making this go away, law or no law.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  4. How about raising rates? by porkUpine · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If the telcos are so worried about big sites not paying their fair share, why don't they just raise bandwidth rates? This is a free market after all. If I were company X and ATT raised my bandwidth rates, I'd shop around... If i couldn't find a better rate, i'd be stuck... kinda like buying gas :)

  5. and this surprises whom? by Quixadhal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't know why people are surprised by this. The internet has become the only effective free press that almost anyone on the planet can both read AND write to. As such, it's a constant thorn in the side of everyone who wants to control the flow of information. That means every government, every business, pretty much everyone who has soemthing to gain by focusing any segment of the public towards their own goals.

    The free ride is over. It was destined to be over the moment the internet was opened to commercial activity (1992?). It just took the pointy-haired types a few years to figure out why they needed to pay attention.

  6. Re:Infastructure + Content = Power Grab by GigsVT · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No you got it all backward. There is decent competition on the backbone level.

    There's a natural monopoly on the local level.

    One good thing this act has in it is provisions to encourage localities to take control of last mile. Even as a Libertarian I diverge from the party line and believe that the last mile natural monopoly should be municipally controlled.

    Putting some fake competition into a natural monopoly via "must carry" laws never works out very well. Just make the physical last mile media locally owned and let the companies that want to use it rent it from the city/county.

    --
    I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  7. Re:Infastructure + Content = Power Grab by joranbelar · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Maybe the government should sieze control over...

    Wow, there's just no way that statement could end badly!

  8. Re:the real issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You make a good point. Every time the big telecom corporations talk about offering tiered levels of service so that they can offer improved, lightning-fast content, what they are really saying is that they want to restrict the flow of the internet so that customers are drawn more to their commerical poopfest.

    They want to offer us fast connections to "partner" sites so that we can shell out 20 bucks for a drm-crippled movie download, or to another site where we can pay $19.95 a month to listen to streaming music.

    What the telecoms really want is control over the internet similar to the way in which cable t.v. is controlled: compartmentalized areas of advertising-infested crap. The internet as it exists today is too fragmented and open to easily hypnotize the consumers. The telecoms want to change that. They want control.

    A tiered internet would really suck donkey-balls, but in some ways I won't be disappointed if it happens. The internet seems to be becoming one big tool for citizen tracking and monitoring, both by the government and the corporations. Perhaps the glory days of the internet are over no matter what happens.

  9. There is only one side here in the end. by Captain+Lou · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There is absolutely nothing stopping the telecoms from charging google and the like for their "Free" Bandwidth, meaning, if they feel that they are getting too smoking a deal, then by all means jack up their pricing on badnwidth to google and yahoo etc.

    this is allowed. Nobody is stopping them. If you believe that its a free market out there, then you must accept that the market will charge what the market will bear.

    Not enough money to upgrade the internet? RAISE THE RATES. Google Yahoo and other content providers getting a "Free ride"? RAISE THEIR RATES.

    Prioritising packets has nothign to do with protecting the bottom line. its totally uneccessary for the reasons they give. It is about being able to finely control every little packet you get, so you can be billed accordingly.

    Why give up the incredibly profitable Long Distance business model for the "flat rate" model of the internet, when you can convert the internet into another "long distance" service?

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    --My signature is six words long.--
  10. You pay for more than the bandwidth you use. by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As I see it, the real problem here is that ISP's bank on the fact that you'll use a lot less bandwidth than what you think you're paying for. The broadband connection to your house is (almost) always on, and if you wanted you could download stuff at a pretty decent clip 24 hours/day, 7 days/week. Nobody really does that, though... most subscribers probably only use their connections for a few hours each day, and even then they probably don't get anywhere close to capacity. ISP's count on that behavior, which is one of the reasons that they usually prohibit running a server.

    That's really not the case so much for Google and other big content providers. They pay for a certain level of service and expect to use that much all the time, and they pay for a guarantee that they'll have it.

    Video and other services obviously mean that consumers are going to use a lot more bandwidth than they currently do. Content providers will pay for their end, but the consumer end of the system is still going to be swamped. ISP's will have to deliver the sort of bandwidth to consumers that consumers already think they're paying for. Raising consumer prices therefore means ISP's will have to confess their bait-and-switch ways, so that's not appealing. The only other option is to squeeze content providers.

    One wonders why the ISP's can't simply turn on some portion of the zillions of miles of dark fiber that's already in place. I'm sure there's hardware to be purchased and all, but upgrading networks this time around ought to be pretty inexpensive compared to previous upgrades. That cost seems like a small price to pay to cover up the fact that they've been overselling their networks for years.