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First Embryonic Stem Cell Clinical Trial Imminent

An anonymous reader writes "California-based Geron has announced that the first embryonic stem cell trial may be in the not-so-distant future. Tom Okarma, Geron's CEO, recently announced that the company will be seeking permission from the FDA to begin clinical trials. From the article: 'Geron's plan is to treat people that have acute spinal injuries with oligodendrocyte progenitor cells grown from human ESCs. Oligodendrocyte cells support neurons in the brain and spine by sheathing them in myelin, a fat that helps neurons to transmit signals.'"

224 comments

  1. Alcomohol by l5rfanboy · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Doesn't alcohol inhibit the brain's ability to pass information between the neurons? Though I know the study is not designed for this, it'd be interested to see if the additional 'signal boost' allowed for cells to overcome the added resistance. 2015: More beer, less drunk

    1. Re:Alcomohol by NeilTheStupidHead · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't really see that as a benefit. If I'm only drinking beer for the flavour, then I'm just as happy with non-alcoholic beer. If I'm drinking beer for the alcohol, then stem-cell enhanced alcohol resistance is not my friend; the ability to repair liver damage however....

      --
      Lose: misplace or fail || Loose: not bound together
    2. Re:Alcomohol by bsartist · · Score: 1
      If I'm only drinking beer for the flavour, then I'm just as happy with non-alcoholic beer.
      Except that non-alcoholic beer has an unfortunate tendency to taste like crap in a bottle. Show me a non-alcoholic brew that tastes as good as Guiness, or Sam Adams Cream Stout, and I'll be all over it.
      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    3. Re:Alcomohol by dfedfe · · Score: 5, Informative

      Ethanol does have an effect on transmission (specifically it reduces excitability and increases the effectiveness of GABA, an inhibitory neurotransmitter), but those are effects on action potential generation. Myelination from oligodendrocytes just increases the ability of an already generated action potential to reach the end of the axon and cause synaptic activity. So the oligodendrocytes' effect is sort of like plugging holes in a leaking pipe, whereas the effect of alcohol is more like decreasing the chance that water will actually enter the pipe in the first place. Which is to say: alcohol's work is already done before the myelination comes into play, so increasing the latter won't much affect the former. (IAA neuroscientist, but admitedly this isn't my area of expertise so I may be slightly wrong).

    4. Re:Alcomohol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You see people, it's posts like these which make me continue to read slashdot.. :)

    5. Re:Alcomohol by Cicero382 · · Score: 2, Informative

      The parent is quite correct; but to clarify for those who *aren't* neuroscientists (and clear up a potential misunderstanding from TFA):

      Myelin is rather like the insulation on a normal household electric cable. It doesn't actually carry the current, but stops the currrent from grounding out before it gets to its destination. So, to translate (and my apologies to the parent for any loss in translation):

      "Myelination from oligodendrocytes just increases the ability of an already generated action potential to reach the end of the axon and cause synaptic activity"

      Translation: Myelin sheaths just insulate the nerve signal from the surrounding tissue.

      "the effect of alcohol is more like decreasing the chance that water will actually enter the pipe in the first place"

      Translation: The effect of alcohol is more like making a dodgy connection at the wall socket.

      Disclaimer: IANA neuroscientist (But IAA biochemist).

    6. Re:Alcomohol by cytg.net · · Score: 1

      i suppose the reason the parent post aint modded 5(yet), must be beacuse its not "FUNNY" .. Great info, thanks! (not many enough online-comedians take the mime approach.. more online mimes please.)

    7. Re:Alcomohol by drsquare · · Score: 1

      Alcohol is part of the flavour of beer. Take out the alcohol and it tastes completely different. There is also no way to remove alcohol from beer without ruining it.

      There are also effects of alcohol besides resistance between neurons.

  2. Move along... by despik · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...there's nothing to sheathe here.

    (I'm sorry.)

    --
    "I seem to have mastered a certain amount of control over physical reality."
    1. Re:Move along... by bsartist · · Score: 4, Funny

      It takes a lot of backbone to make a joke like that. I'm amazed someone had the spine to do it.

      --
      Lost: Sig, white with black letters. No collar. Reward if found!
    2. Re:Move along... by Guano_Jim · · Score: 2, Funny

      The nerve of some people.

    3. Re:Move along... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be a meuron.

  3. Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I, for one, welcome our god playing doctors.

    1. Re:Overlords by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Funny

      In Soviet Russia that would be Doctor playing gods.

    2. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      I don't. I believe to create life and then to destroy it for the sake of harvesting it's cells is wrong.

    3. Re:Overlords by NeilTheStupidHead · · Score: 1

      I agree with you that creating embryos simply for the purpose of harvesting stem-cells is morally ambiguous at best. I also think that as long as abortion is legal, those stem-cells should be put to the best medical/scientific use possible instead of simply tossing them away. If I am murdered (which definitly is illegal), it doesn't make any sense to toss all my organs in the furnace just because someone's decision to end my life was wrong.

      --
      Lose: misplace or fail || Loose: not bound together
    4. Re:Overlords by Marko+DeBeeste · · Score: 1

      Enjoying that burger? Oh wait the lettuce is OK... DOH! Next you'll be bitching because some Penecillium gave it's life for the evil human overlords...

      --
      Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
    5. Re:Overlords by constantnormal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then you should take the time to understand exactly what it is that this company is doing.

      They are cloning embryonic progenitor stem cells, and while you might at first glance think they are killing babies or mothers to obtain those initial cells, they might not be. I'd be exceedingly surprised if they were, because there are laws against that sort of thing.

      How about if they obtained the initial cells from umbilical cord blood? I don't believe that there is any way to turn unbilical cord blood into a human being, and it is material that might otherwise be discarded -- and usually is.

      How about if they were using discarded unfertilized eggs to process and obtain a souce of cloneable material?

      How about if they took stem cells from bone marrow and used those as the basis to produce cloneable embryonic progenitor cells?

      Because IANAMB (I Am Not A Molecular Biologist), some of the possibilities I have suggested above are either not possible or not practical. But I suspect that more than one of those approaches is.

      I do doubt very much that they are taking fertilized eggs from a viable womb to clone their embryonic progenitor cells.

      I wonder, do you also oppose organ donors? It seems to me that is exactly what you are describing. An organ donor is life that has been created and destroyed, and then the useful parts reclaimed to allow someone else to continue to live. Granted, they were (probably) not killed in order to harvest the organs (unless you believe that living corpses like Terry Schiavo were "killed" when their life support hardware was turned off), but it seems to me that people in your line of belief oppose more the harvesting than the killing, as they are content to allow fertilized egges to be destroyed by natural means rather than harvested to save the lives of others.

      Please research exactly what it is that this company is doing before you leap forward to oppose it.

    6. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think there is anything morally ambiguous about creating embryos for the purpose of harvesting their cells. It is wrong. Also I believe there is a distinction between a person voluntarily donating their organs/cells in the event of their death (whether by murder, accident, etc) and using the cells of those who have been consulted in the choice (victims of abortion).

    7. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I did jump the gun. But the article refers to embryonic stem cells, which are obtained, I would think from embryos. An embryo is a fertilized egg. I equate that with a human life. But perhaps, as you pointed out, they are from another source. If so, I stand corrected. I do not oppose organ donors, because they are donors. They are freely giving of their cells and organs. Those killed by abortions are not donors.

    8. Re:Overlords by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      (unless you believe that living corpses like Terry Schiavo were "killed" when their life support hardware was turned off),

      Whoah, you sounded like a reasonable person worth including in a discussion there for awhile. Please put 'ringers' like the above early in your rants in the future so we don't need to waste time reading on.

    9. Re:Overlords by Alaria+Phrozen · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Why can I hear you talk? You should have died years ago from starvation. Anything you've ever eaten has been harvested. If you think you're somehow "more" alive than the plants and animals that you eat then.....

    10. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      To me there is a clear distinction between plants, animals and human beings.

    11. Re:Overlords by Alaria+Phrozen · · Score: 1

      I saw nothing wrong with that statement. You must have read inflection into it that simply wasn't there. If I had mod points I'd mark you a troll. The autopsy revealed that her corpse had reprocessed/recycled over half of her brain as it wasn't being used. Any religious objection that she should have been kept on life support can be negated just as easily as another religious objection that she should have never been put on it in the first place.

    12. Re:Overlords by Alaria+Phrozen · · Score: 1

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/embryonic 1 - Of, relating to, or being an embryo. 2 - also embryotic (-tk) Rudimentary; incipient: an embryonic nation, not yet self-governing. Could have been 1 or 2, I agree. Despite the ambiguity, it has a much nicer ring than Unwanted Baby Girl cells. Abortions will happen whether you want them to or not. As long the USA is a country of freedom and choice, it will continue to support abortion irregardless of your personal beliefs. If one "unwanted" child can save a dozen lives or a hundred, I think that's much better than throwing it in the trash.

    13. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      I know several people who would *greatly* benefit from stem cell related advances.

      I understand that people consider embryos life, and I respect that.

      However, I would, without a moment's hesitation, trade 1,000,000 embryos (that wouldn't have been created in the first place if it wasn't for 'stem cell research') for any of my family members or friends.

      I just don't consider "their" lives equal to the lives of legitimate people.

    14. Re:Overlords by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      Embryonic stems cell are harvested from fertilized embryos. An unfertilized egg doesn't undergo cell division, so you were correct. I don't know where the notion that these might be unfertilized comes from.

      Not that I agree with your values on this issue... but your grasp of the facts is correct.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    15. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      I really don't think abortion has brought "freedom" to the United States. I would think freedom gives life, rather than takes it away. How much happiness and joy has abortion really brought to anyone? What does it say about us that we see unborn children as a potential medical resource instead of a precious humnan life? I don't mean to condemn anyone, but these are questions that need to be asked?

    16. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Where did your friends and relatives come from? At what point would you consider them living?

    17. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      Obviously they came from embryos.

      I'm not saying an embryo isn't living. I'm saying I don't consider it an equal to a born child. At some point during a pregnancy it becomes a "person". I can't answer when I believe that moment is. I *do* believe it is well after conception, and well before birth.

      If one of your family members is ever afflicted by a debilitating disease that could be aided by stem cells, I want you to look them in their eyes and tell them: "Hey, if I mix semen with an egg I could potentially save your life... But unfortunately when semen gets mixed with an egg an embryo is formed which, under proper circumstances, could turn into a person. Their rights have to be protected too, so I guess you have to die".

    18. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Well, actually, the embryo is a person according to my beliefs. We are coming at this issue from two different directions. Because of my Christian beliefs, I believe that there are things more important than maintaining physical life. I believe there is a God to whom we are accountable. To me, quality of life is more than just our ability to think, eat, sleep, procreate, etc. It is the quality of the decisions and life we live. Because of this, a "ends justifies the means" pragmatism is not viable.

    19. Re:Overlords by mvsmo · · Score: 0

      To me there is a clear distinction between plants, animals and human beings. I think once you look into things, the distinction because very vague, especially between humans and animals. I debate a lot with a buddy of mine about what makes humans unique, and invariably we end up talking about monkeys that can communicate with sign language. He isn't satisfied that they can gesture a few words or comprehend, he wants substantial sentences that demonstrate a realization of the self. Honestly, given the rather intricate social structures of some animals (like wolves) I am very hard pressed think there is anything fundamentally different between humans and animals. Humans are, afterall, animals. Any uniquess we have is just the result of our evolutionary path, and I think it entirely unreasable to assume that most of the intelligences and emotions we developed are undevelopable in animals or are in fact, undeveloped. Sure, I doubt a dolphin could chat with me about Lie groups, but I can't hear a 30 minute series of clicks and then reproduce them flawlessly. The latter impresses me a whole hell of a lot more than my own ability with mathematics. Talk about human uniquess and supremacy (by what measure it doesn't matter) is, to me, frightenly reminescent of racist hate speech.

    20. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Then how do you explain that a considerable number of pregnancies end in "spontaneous abortions"? A great deal of perfectly viable embryos just don't survive.

      here: http://www.physorg.com/news67783446.html
      or, a site you trust: http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/jun/06060508.html

      According to the second site there, only 10-15% of preganncies "spontanteous abort", "Ninety percent of all such abortions are due to rejection of a maldeveloped embryo or fetus".

      That means 1%-2% of healthy babies are naturally aborted for no reason.

      If God considered every embryo that important, and I'm assuming you think this to be more or less under his control, he would make sure that the viable embryoes lived.

      I don't believe in God, but I respect people that do. The problem I have with this situation is that people like you are attempting to stop my friends and family members from getting the treatment that could be possible.

    21. Re:Overlords by Maelwryth · · Score: 1

      "I don't. I believe to create life and then to destroy it for the sake of harvesting it's cells is wrong."
      Look man. I know you are hungry, but the plants will stop screaming after you eat them, I swear it......OK, it's probably not what you meant. But then I don't think you could have stated what you seemed to be meaning as then you would have had to define terms like human and life. Unfortunatly, I can't define them either, so we're stuck at this point.

      --
      I reserve the write to mangle english.
    22. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      A spontaneous abortion is just that "spontaneous." A regular abortion is done because someone decides to do it. That is a moral choice. As far as God's involvement in this, I do believe God is in control. However, I would rather have Him making these kinds of decisions rather than humans. I mean no disrespect by this.

    23. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      As a side note, and as a potentially good or bad analogy (I've been known to make very poor analogies)...

      I consider a pregnancy like baking a cake. It takes a couple of ingredients. You mix them together, put it in an oven for a while. When you are done you have a cake.

      At some point it turns into a cake. It is certainly a cake after it comes out of the oven. 5 minutes before it comes out, it is also clearly a cake (just not as good of one, but no one would mistake it for anything but a cake). However, just placing the ingredients in a bowl would certainly not constitute a cake.

    24. Re:Overlords by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      Any religious objection that she should have been kept on life support can be negated just as easily as another religious objection that she should have never been put on it in the first place.

      No, because the church she and her family belonged to, the Roman Catholic Church, objects only to disconnecting one from life support. The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that a given person should have never been placed on life support.

      You might say, "Well, I and my religion object!", but with all due respect your own personal religious beliefs are of little importance to devout members of another church trying to act in obedience to their tradition in continuing their daughter's life.

    25. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      I'm just saying - if God is okay with spontaneous abortions, who are you to supercede him and say that every embryo's life is important?

      And I know this argument can be used in reverse... "Why can't we give people cancer?" etc.

      I also mean no disrespect - I (unlike many people I know) know that there are two sides to this argument and everyone feels very strong about this.

      I am often distressed at the people I see protesting in front of planned parenthood. I understand they mean well, but the situation is often very complicated. I know someone who has a rare disease, where the pill and pregnancies are EXTREMELY dangerous. (Either could kill her) Needless to say, she is very pro-choice. And I agree with her. It'd be nice to say "All babies should live", but reality isn't that simple.

      What do you say to that situation?

    26. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, that might be a good analogy supporting Intelligent Design, but in my opinion, not the present discussion ;)

    27. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      I would question the advisability of her having sexual relations in that situation.

    28. Re:Overlords by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      An organ donor chooses to donate his organs if he dies and they are usable. He is not killed. I do agree that if a stem cell would otherwise be discarded it is okay to use it for research, but using it to directly cure a patient is a slippery slope.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    29. Re:Overlords by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      The life of a human being is not equitable with a cow, vegetable, or bacterium.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    30. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Well, I base my distinction upon the teachings of the Bible, so it is obvious where we part ways to me. I'm not going to get into a discussion of differences/similarities based on physical characteristics or even mental abilities of humans versus animals. Humans and animals are different because humans have an eternal soul. They are made in God's image. As far as hate speech is concerned, you are making a connection which isn't there. Animals belong to species; humans belong to races.

    31. Re:Overlords by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      Either evolution made humans superior than animals and inclined to eat them, and with an abhorrence towards killing our own kind, or God did. Either way, it is nature. I wouldn't want to eat a dolphin, dog, or ape but I have no problem with eating a cow. They were created/evolved for us to eat.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    32. Re:Overlords by Marko+DeBeeste · · Score: 2

      Spoken from the lofty heights of genetic perfection, I trust

      --
      Faith: n. -- That human impulse that drives them to steal appliances when the power goes out
    33. Re:Overlords by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Where did your friends and relatives come from? At what point would you consider them living?

      I'm not qualified to answer that concretely, but I will say at what point I don't consider an embryo living. At the point of conception. Here's a sperm, here's an egg. Here's a chemical reaction. There's a zygote. This is all well and good, but that alone is not enough to make me grant what were previously two small single cells the full distinction of "human being" I afford to my friends and neighbours.

      So when does "life" mysteriously emerge? Not really a scientific question, but I can tell you this: Most people would probably not be able to distinguish between a human embryo and one from another species during the first eight weeks of development.

      Your milage may of course vary.

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    34. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      If it's not living at the point of conception, then what is it?

    35. Re:Overlords by deficite · · Score: 1

      Finally, somebody I can agree with. If I had mod points and that good stuff, I'd mod you up for sure.

    36. Re:Overlords by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      And yet, that is the only clearly definable event in the entire process. (well closing the oven door if you want to be pedantic). It is the only clearly definable instant prior to which you definately won't have cake, and after which there's a pretty good chance of cake.

      Between the closing of the door and the removal at then end, there is a continuum of states of varying cakiness, but while a cake cooked for a half-hour might not be done enough, a slightly smaller cake cooked for the same time might be.

      Since the correlation between cakiness and time cooked is not strictly 1:1, if you want to count your cakes early, you need either some objective and nondestructive way of determining "percent done" to set an appropriate limit. Or you can play it safe and just pick the clearly definable event at the begining.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    37. Re:Overlords by Eccles · · Score: 2

      A friend of mine is trying IVF with donor eggs, and got five embryos this cycle. Four of them will be destroyed. Is she participating in mass murder?

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    38. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      What if she gets raped?

      Would you rather her die than have an abortion?

    39. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      If I mix flour and eggs and all that stuff together, there's only a good chance of cake because I put it together in the hopes of making a cake.

      However, while making cakes, I often like to eat cake batter. It's delicious. Is that cake? I think it could be cake, but isn't.

      I'd rather have a cake than the batter. If you ever bake a cake, give me a ring, and I'll put together some cake batter and we'll trade.

    40. Re:Overlords by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      If I had mod points I'd mark you a troll.

      You just defined yourself as trolled, dude.

      'Living Corpse' was inflammatory language.

      Whoah. You trolled me.

    41. Re:Overlords by Eccles · · Score: 1

      Well, I base my distinction upon the teachings of the Bible, so it is obvious where we part ways to me.

      Except that the Bible doesn' directly speak to the point of human life beginning. If anything, it implies that human life has an immortal soul, but give no indication at what point a developing human gets a soul, nor if that's the determining factor. Even now, the Catholic Church has no position on exactly when ensoulment happens, and common law had no punishment for abortion before "quickening" -- when the mother can feel the baby move. (Ramesh Ponnuru claims "In an age without ultrasound or sophisticated home pregnancy tests, quickening was the way pregnancies were known to exist." Apparently he has never actually seen a pregnant woman.)

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    42. Re:Overlords by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      me too. In fact, I'm an advocate of not removing the cake from the oven early unless there's a problem with the oven. I also like cake with frosting. Which is added after the cake has been removed from the oven. Some people might even say it's not really a cake until you've added the frosting.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    43. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Hypothetical questions work both ways. How do you know she would die? Doctors can be wrong.

    44. Re:Overlords by suffe · · Score: 1

      I always figured it would be gods playing doctors.

      --

      Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
    45. Re:Overlords by Gorshkov · · Score: 1

      To me there is a clear distinction between plants, animals and human beings.

      Absolutly .... and to paraphrase in terms of the food chain, plants are what food eats :-)

    46. Re:Overlords by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      What if it's a really, really stupid person? I'm not trying to troll here, I'm really wondering what you believe makes the life of a human worth more than the life of, say, a cow. Under what circumstances would the life of a cow be worth more than the life of a human?

    47. Re:Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many scientific advancements are the result of some initial human loss. Look at almost any war in the past two centuries; each one brought about incredible new discoveries, and through those new technology of all facets. This type of research is no different, in that there must be some loss if we, as a species, are to make any significant advancements.

    48. Re:Overlords by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would think freedom gives life, rather than takes it away.

      Nope. Freedom does not give life but it makes life worth living. We'd probably live much longer if we took away our freedoms of deciding what to eat (replacing it with a health plan that has been tested thoroughly to guarantee maximum health) or to drive cars individually (enforcing use of public transportation instead, which of course would be more developed in such a scenario). Giving up guns would reduce the number of gun-related deaths, banning all unhealthy substances (including alcohol and tobacco) would increase health, surveillance everywhere would greatly reduce crime.

      How much happiness and joy has abortion really brought to anyone?

      If the mother wants to get rid of the child she'll get rid of the child. I'd rather have a surgeon do that with the appropriate tools before the "child" is alive than the mother doing that with a tyre iron when the child is crying too much. Even if the mother does not kill the child she can (willingly or unwillingly) cause severe psychological damage to an unwanted child.

      What does it say about us that we see unborn children as a potential medical resource instead of a precious humnan life?

      Well, it's still better than the lion who kills other lion's babies in order to get laid.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    49. Re:Overlords by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Of course she could survive. Jump in front of a car, there's a chance you'll survive!

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    50. Re:Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Under what circumstances would the life of a cow be worth more than the life of a human?"

      None.

    51. Re:Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said anything about it "not living"? Lots of things are living. What it is is "not human". When does it become human? Sometime after conception. It probably isn't really human until some time after birth, but I don't have a problem with calling it mostly human at birth. Certainly by the age of five years old, most babies have turned into little humans.

      Asking when does a fetus become a human being is similar to asking which grain of sand turns a bunch of grains of sand into a pile of sand. A couple hundred grains of sand doesn't make a pile, but at some point it will definitely be a pile. But there's no one grain of sand that changes it from not a pile to a pile. It most definitely is NOT a pile when the first grain of sand is dropped.

      When techniques to turn any cell in the body into an undifferentiated stem cell have been perfected, the whole "human potential" argument falls completely apart, as EVERY cell in your body is a potential human at that point.

    52. Re:Overlords by Cicero382 · · Score: 1

      "Because IANAMB (I Am Not A Molecular Biologist), some of the possibilities I have suggested above are either not possible or not practical. But I suspect that more than one of those approaches is."

      IAAMB (Usually describe myself as just biochemist - people have a clearer idea what that is). This isn't actually my area of expertise but it's close to the periphery of what I do (Immunology).

      The simple answer is that some of these technologies are being investigated - not least because of the ethical concerns of ESCR. For the time being, however, ESC is the only usable technology for these kinds of experiments. All is not lost because when some of the other technologies advance to the practical stage, we can use them as the starting point and *these* techniques to follow on. ESC tech is probably doomed in the end, because of the immune rejection problems mentioned. For now, it's all we have.

      "I do doubt very much that they are taking fertilized eggs from a viable womb to clone their embryonic progenitor cells."

      Sorry - effectively, that's exactly what they do.

      At this point I feel I should point out that I am *very* unhappy about ESCR for personal reasons. My wife had a hydatiform molar pregnancy.. with twins. One was hydatiform - the other wasn't. We had to abort both to save my wife's life. Not logical, true. But I'm not Mr Spock or a computer. Anyway, I would still have grave moral reservations about using embryos.

      "Please research exactly what it is that this company is doing before you leap forward to oppose it."

      Please research exactly what it is that this company is doing before you leap forward to defend it.

    53. Re:Overlords by vertinox · · Score: 1

      I don't. I believe to create life and then to destroy it for the sake of harvesting it's cells is wrong.

      Well I suppose it is good then they aren't destroying life. Embryonic cells are obtained from fertility clinics which would have thrown them out anyways.

      Secondly, embryos don't have sentient life nor do they have counciousness.

      And lastly, if you believe in a kind loving god, then we can be assured no embryos are going to hell for something they have no control over.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    54. Re:Overlords by jmansfield · · Score: 1

      Isn't hyphenation, or the lack thereof, a wonderful thing?

      That sentence says that God is playing "doctors" ... which, if I recall how one plays Doctors from my early teen years, involves a bit of exploration of the anatomy of a "patient", preferably in private and without your mother finding out ;-)

      I can't imagine most people who believe in God welcoming him playing doctors!

      ITYM: I, for one, welcome our God-playing doctors.

      -Jim

    55. Re:Overlords by jbreckman · · Score: 1

      Because other people that have the same disease have died during pregnancy. Some live, some die. The ones that live often have problems the rest of their lives.

    56. Re:Overlords by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      I value humans more because I am a human. Generally, if an organism holds value on life, it is on the life of others of it's species. That is nature, and how God/evolution intended/developed it to be. The only species I can think of that equates the life of one of its own with another species is the dog, and they were bred to do so for thousands of years.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    57. Re:Overlords by Ninjaesque+One · · Score: 0

      That comment about the dog raises a point: since our minds are inherently more malleable, why couldn't we be brainwashed to care more for a dog than a human?

      --
      Ninjas and pirates. How piquant.
    58. Re:Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even now, the Catholic Church has no position on exactly when ensoulment happens

      That's not true. We get our souls at conception.

      Catechism #2271
      "God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

    59. Re:Overlords by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha. You're right, God definitely does not condone the creation of life just to destroy it.

    60. Re:Overlords by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      And you think children have given consent for their organs to be harvested? Parents make that decision. Should we disallow organ transplants from people just because they're incapable of making an informed decision? Most people don't have living wills, and while that Organ Donor block is present on most Driver's Licenses, it holds no legal standing -- next of kin still have final say. So basically, we as a society (although perhaps not you personally) agree that the deceased has some influence over the decision, but not total control, and we entrust those decisions to next of kin -- for everyone -- but that's somehow completely different when it comes to embryos.

      Makes sense to me.

    61. Re:Overlords by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Are these hypothetical children you're talking about being killed so that their organs can be harvested? And these hypothetical persons whose relatives are making decisions regarding the final disposition of their organ, were they killed so that they're organs could be harvested? No, they are not. I am not talking about people whose desires for what is done with their bodies after death are not being honored. I am talking about persons who are being killed for their organs and or cells. This is entirely two different things. It's one thing not to honor a person's desires for their remains after death; it's entirely another matter to kill them for their organs.

    62. Re:Overlords by dmatos · · Score: 1

      Yes - of the potentially thousands of people that could have been saved using the stem cells from those embryos. (j/k, but I do think that's more important than the embryos themselves).

      --

      It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
      --Scott Adams
    63. Re:Overlords by rapierian · · Score: 1

      Umbilical cord stem cells are Adult stem cells, not Embryonic Stem cells. Adult stem cells are already in clinical trials in 4 or 5 different incredible areas in the medical field, but don't get nearly the funding of embryonic stem cells because people want to support something that gives them a scientific justification for supporting abortion.

    64. Re:Overlords by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I am talking about persons who are being killed for their organs and or cells.

      Nobody suggested that such a thing be legal. Nobody even mentioned it except you. We were talking about the ability to use the remains from abortions which would have occurred anyway. And if you think that there'd be a rush of women getting pregnant just so they could terminate and donate the remains, then you don't know women very well at all. And anybody who would do something like that wouldn't be deterred by the fact that it was illegal.

      But even if you only consider miscarriage and stillbirth, those are potential research opportunities being wasted. Squandered, in fact. Sure, it's not palletable to discuss, and it's depressing to think about, but it happens, and there's nothing immoral or unethical about using the remains for the greater good. I, and most people I know (even you, perhaps?) would have no dilemna donating their tissue to scientific research after they're gone, especially if it had the capability to help millions of people, and just because someone isn't old enough to make that decsion on their own doesn't make it the wrong decision.

  4. Result of Propostion 71? by gasmonso · · Score: 4, Informative

    I believe this was the result of propostion 71 that was passed in California last year. It allocated $3 billion over a period of ten years to fund stem cell research! Way to go California :)

    http://religiousfreaks.com/ http://psychicfreaks.com/
    1. Re:Result of Propostion 71? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      http://religiousfreaks.com/ http://psychicfreaks.com/

      Put that shit in a sig. I turn them off for a reason.

    2. Re:Result of Propostion 71? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      You're welcome. And yet once again, the people in the backwards states will be able to take advantage of the foresight of California voters.
      You are also able to thank us when you get notified about your personal data being stolen. Please join us in the 21st century sometime soon.

    3. Re:Result of Propostion 71? by pikayou · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, no money from Prop. 71 has been spent yet due to a lawsuit filed by groups opposed to stem cell research.

    4. Re:Result of Propostion 71? by tsotha · · Score: 3, Funny

      Having worked for the government, I can assure you with virtually 100% certainty it's too early for prop 71 money to have done anything but buy office furniture. Check back in about five years.

  5. Next up... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Personally, I think we should just cut to the chase and start growing humans specifically to harvest the organs. Why not? As long as they don't achieve consciousness, what's the harm?

    --
    Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    1. Re:Next up... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      You are being sarcastic, aren't you?

    2. Re:Next up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You strike me as a good first candidate.

    3. Re:Next up... by Oldsmobile · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Personally, I think we should just cut to the chase and start growing humans specifically to harvest the organs. Why not? As long as they don't achieve consciousness, what's the harm?

      We already have those. They are called motorcyclists. Emergencey response teams don't call them "organ doners" for nothing.

      --
      Some say he is made with ascii, others that he is eyeballed daily by millions. All we know is, he is known as the Sig
    4. Re:Next up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a brilliant idea. As long as they dont have any detectable consciousness I cant see any further ethical problems.

      We could maybe grow the bodies without brains?

      You could be the first donor.

    5. Re:Next up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, an "organ doner" probably has more to do with drunken late night snacking than procedures. I think the spelling you were looking for was "donor".

      But, point well taken.

    6. Re:Next up... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      There is a move in several state legislatures to provide an exemption to the 'Mandatory Helmet Law.' If a motorcyclist carries the designation on his license that he is an organ donor, he is not required to wear a helmet.

    7. Re:Next up... by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 1

      Yes, thank you for noticing. :) (this being Slashdot, I probably should've added sarcasm tags)

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    8. Re:Next up... by rkulla · · Score: 1

      hahaha

    9. Re:Next up... by CRCulver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, I think we should just cut to the chase and start growing humans specifically to harvest the organs. Why not? As long as they don't achieve consciousness, what's the harm?

      Well, there are two problems with that as presented in the vision of the future of Larry Niven's Gil Hamilton universe (not so hot writing, but good futurism).

      The first is that people would be more likely to take organs from criminals, since they at least can be seen as culpable. This is reputably already popular in China, where if you commit a heinous crime people are going to have no sympathy for you whatsoever. If you're creating human life for the mere extraction of organs, then said human life has an aura of innocence Tabout, and so the matter will weigh heavily on society's hearts. The consequence of taking organs from criminals, however, may be that the death penalty becomes proscribed for all kinds of minor infractions, from driving under the influence to vandalism.

      The second problem is that I don't foresee the need for organs lasting so long that we'd get to the point of creating an entire human being just for organs. New breakthroughs in alloplasty ("gadgets instead of organs") might free us from the problem of donations forever.

    10. Re:Next up... by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

      The vehicles are also sometimes called "donorcycles".

    11. Re:Next up... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they ride a machine ER folks call the "Donorcycle".

    12. Re:Next up... by pete-classic · · Score: 1

      I ride a motorcycle. I can also spell "donor".

      -Peter

    13. Re:Next up... by dmatos · · Score: 1

      But the helmet is required to protect the delicate tissues in the head. Think of all the unfortunate people waiting for a corneal transplant, unable to get one because some inconsiderate donor turned his entire face to hamburger meat. For that matter, they've performed face transplants as well now.

      I've heard that the helmet is used to protect the head, so that it's easier to identify the decapitated body.

      --

      It may look like I'm doing nothing, but I'm actively waiting for my problems to go away.
      --Scott Adams
  6. Get off your high horse and RTFA by addikt10 · · Score: 1

    Unless know of a manner in which you can transplant a spinal cord from one human to another.

  7. Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by ABeowulfCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For example, will this lead to a cure for MS?

    1. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by l5rfanboy · · Score: 1

      Having worked with patients with CF and MS, among others, I'm excited at the prospects of this new testing, but am waiting, as I have with so many other treatments in development (though granted this has a much higher chance of success), for actual clinical results, not just proposals.

    2. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by script_daddy · · Score: 1

      We already have Linux for that. Oh, wait, you mean that MS.

      I'd say it's probable that this kind of treatment may prove beneficial for MS-patients, seeing as MS is caused by myelin not being reproduced fast enough by the oligodendrocytes. I'm not a neurologist though, so there may be problems with using this kind of treatment on MS-patients that I'm not aware of.

      --
      One of a Kind <-- You probably won't be interested..
    3. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      MS is most likely caused by the immune system attacking myelin. MS patients might not benefit much from repeated brain surgery to inject stem cells into lesions only to have the myelin they produce be destroyed anyway.

      It might be useful to repair damage if someone figures out how to reliably stop the deterioration though.

    4. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nobody's posting because "imminemt" and "thinking of applying to the fda" are mutually exclusive. The fda takes forever to do anything, maybe this will prove interesting in a few years if the fda ever approves it.

    5. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by guruevi · · Score: 1

      The only cure for MS is Linux

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    6. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by ColPanic · · Score: 0

      Wouldn't that depend on the rate of destruction? MS is an extremely long term disease, so these sort of treatments seem likely to be benificial, even if they deteriorate again over time.

      -T

      --
      -------- I dig Mobile Phones
    7. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Maybe. Brain surgery is pretty invasive though, particularly when you need to make a LOT of injections into a lot of different places in the brain. MS is a diffuse disease. You don't get one lesion that grows and grows, you get a lot of little ones, often spread out all over the place, each of which would need to be treated individually. They're inconveniently in the white matter too, which means you have to go through the grey matter to get to them.

    8. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      Having worked with patients with CF and MS

      Wouldn't that be MS Pro Duo these days?

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    9. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by Cheapy · · Score: 1

      No, that cure is already known.

      I think www.debian.org might have some information on how to cure the disease known as MS.

      --
      Would you kindly mod me +1 insightful?
    10. Re:Nobody's posting anything interesting in reply. by Tsen+Wrath · · Score: 0

      Sweet, there many finally be a cure for Microsoft?

  8. Just a thought.... by Ruff_ilb · · Score: 1

    What do you eat? (Assuming that you consider animals and plants alive)

    But seriously, this can set up some pretty interesting dilemmas, assuming you value highly the life of both, say, a sick child and a fetus (even ASSUMING that the stem cells come from fetuses). Even if you value them equally, there's no reason to make such a decision in favor of the fetus by default. Either way you're killing something.

    But what I'm really afraid of is that, despite whatever scientific significance such a trial could have, the religious right will immediately jump on this and squelch it without giving it any sort of chance. At least, hopefully, we can get the scientific advances later from countries that are more willing to do the research.

    --
    http://www.TheGamerNation.com/Forums
    1. Re:Just a thought.... by thule · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But what I'm really afraid of is that, despite whatever scientific significance such a trial could have, the religious right will immediately jump on this and squelch it without giving it any sort of chance. At least, hopefully, we can get the scientific advances later from countries that are more willing to do the research.

      What frightens me is that even with proven advances in adult stem cells, some people squelch it for research that has inherent problems with the body rejecting the cells. These people claim that anti-science religious groups are attacking them. Huh?

    2. Re:Just a thought.... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1
      But seriously, this can set up some pretty interesting dilemmas, assuming you value highly the life of both, say, a sick child and a fetus.

      On "take your child to work" day, a mother brings her eight year old daughter into the in vitro fertilization lab where she works. She leaves her child at a desk in her office to go to the restroom. On her way back, she is accosted by a co-worker and speaks with her for a few minutes. Unbeknownst to her, an electrical fire breaks out in a wall between a lab and her office. Her daughter, sitting in her office, is trapped by the fire and cannot escape without help. Luckily, the fire department is called. A firefighter, a good Catholic, sees in the lab hundreds of fertilized embryos. He can save the hundreds of human embryos or the girl. Which does he choose?

      And why do I feel like I'm on the "Ask Kevin Smith" show (not that there is one of those or anthing, but this is the kind of question Randall would ask Dante)?

      --
      That is all.
    3. Re:Just a thought.... by dfedfe · · Score: 2, Funny

      Is the girl ugly?

    4. Re:Just a thought.... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      Nature intends for certain species of animals to kill each other for food. Either you view this as the facilitation of natural selection and the cycle of life, God's plan, or both. Humans have been created as/evolved into a species where killing each other is abhorred, as it is among other intelligent creatures.

      Most people agree that destroying another person to further one's own life is wrong. The argument is as to whether a fetus is a person. I, personally, do not believe that it is safe to assume that a fetus is not.

      People who believe that this trial is killing an innocent human being, whether out of religious or secular beliefs, should attempt to stop this no matter the scientific advances.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    5. Re:Just a thought.... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between choosing to save a developed person rather than a fetus, and choosing to kill a fetus to save a developed person.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    6. Re:Just a thought.... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The rescue worker will do what all rescue workers are trained to do. Rescue the least injured/in-danger victim first. In your hypothetical example, he would rescue the girl then go back for the embryos. But even there he might not go back in, being trained not to put himself at personal risk if the cause is literally hopeless. (how long would it take to get them into another cryo-facility while they were still viable?)

      And anyway, why would you expect him to use a millsian ethical paradigm in the first place?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:Just a thought.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But using adult stem cells isn't half as much fun. They might be better, but they don't annoy the religious right, so why would anyone use them? You are not a religious wacko, are you?

  9. babybooms, as we age, will need these technologies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With the babyboomers being the first generation (in history) to be at the threshold where science and technology is unlocking the secrets of how cells work and with the increased competition, it is no longer simply okay to accept that when you reach your early 40's that you can be let go because there are younger workers able to do your job (simply because you suffer fron the what is now "natural" aging process)

    With these new upcoming technologies (stem cells, bio/nanotech) we will be able to, in the next couple of dacades, to slow and reverse the aging process so that in this competitive world enviroment, you won't be tossed out on the junk heap when you reach 40.

    The only way this is going to happen is for people to push science and technological research forward and demand that this be done (instead of, say invading other countries).

    Remeber, in the future, when we can reprogram cells and easily as we write programs today, people growing up will be taking their nano-reguvination/enhaced intelegence/memory/internet-connect-mind-thought-t ransfer pills and much like todays generation (with ipods, pc's,internet etc.) not be able to imagine a time when this technology did not exist.

  10. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by Quirk · · Score: 4, Funny
    "...we can reprogram cells and easily as we write programs today,

    Sure that's a third eye on your elbow, but it's a feature, for free too.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
  11. Move Further... by eieken · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hope there is some catalyst that causes a much larger wave of biological research. I want to see "Smart Pills", "Strong Pills" and "Anti-Aging Pills" all with little or no side-effects in my lifetime, I feel like we could have these things if we weren't so concerned with curing the symptoms of diseases as we currently are. I know that our pharmacological community is more concerned with making a buck and keeping us sick then actually curing diseases. I hope that soon enough something is done to halt the concentration on frivilous medical research. Whether it be heavy subsidies to pharmaceutical companies, or offering up huge cash incentives to finding a cure, I just would like to see us move into a future where some of the basic human ailments have been conquered. We as humans have managed to conquer (or destroy as you may have it) our environment to the point of being able to genetically engineer our own food, so it seems ridiculous that we can't have a better understanding of our own body.

    --
    Meet new people, and kill them.
    1. Re:Move Further... by Pedrito · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know that our pharmacological community is more concerned with making a buck and keeping us sick then actually curing diseases.

      That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. Yes, pharmaceutical companies want to make a buck, but scientists are human beings and many of them are doing their best to create the best drugs they can to help people. To think that they're intentionally withholding drugs or not trying to cure diseases to keep making money is simply ridiculous and paranoid.

      There are tons of people working to cure cancers, Parkinson's, AIDS, Alzheimer's, and other diseases. If you think otherwise, you don't know anything about medical research. The fact that these things aren't yet cured is not from a lack of trying. There's still a great deal about the human body we don't know. There's tons about stem cells we don't understand. The human body is so amazingly comlpex, it's incredible that we can do the things we can do already.

      Remember, drug companies and researchers came up with a number of vaccines for diseases that no longer plague us. Bacterial infections are fatal about 1/1000th as often as they used to be, thanks to the work of drug companies.

      Don't get me wrong, they're not charity organizations and I'm not trying to make them out to be that. They're trying to make money for their stockholders, and that's their job. The people who work for them are trying to cure diseases, though. That's their job.

    2. Re:Move Further... by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I just would like to see us move into a future where some of the basic human ailments have been conquered."

      I don't think you'll ever be happy. We already live in the era when people have a good chance of living into old age. Time was, before antibiotics, almost half of all infants died before their first birthday. Of those people who made it past age 1, half of them died before age 30. So only about 25% of the people born ever made it to old age.

      Here in the US, the average male life span is 75.2. Welcome to paradise ;)

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    3. Re:Move Further... by addikt10 · · Score: 2

      I want to see "Smart Pills"...
      It will never happen. Republicans are running all three branches of government, and smart pills would be the end of them.

    4. Re:Move Further... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      To think that they're intentionally withholding drugs or not trying to cure diseases to keep making money is simply ridiculous and paranoid.

      No it isn't.

      The've spent billions on new sleeping pills, erection drugs, herpes supression (not a cure though), etc.

      In fact, nothing's a cure anymore, it's always a lengthy treatment that you have to keep taking or it stops working.

      They aren't interested in curing things anymore, curing things is a losing proposition.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    5. Re:Move Further... by dfedfe · · Score: 1

      Urm, surprisingly, commercials shown on daytime TV aren't representative of the entire field of pharmacological research.

      But as for the specific ailments you mention...

      A cure for sleeping disorders surely wouldn't be a pill that makes you sleep forever or stay awake forever. I expect (IANAD) that sleeping disorders tend to be either environmental (stress, etc), in which case you shouldn't expect a cure in a pill, or genetic, in which a cure would have to actually change your genes.

      Consider the nature of what we can and can't cure and you may realize that the things we can't yet fix are actually really complicated, so treatments are the best we can do.

      If only everything was caused by bacteria...

    6. Re:Move Further... by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. Yes, pharmaceutical companies want to make a buck, but scientists are human beings and many of them are doing their best to create the best drugs they can to help people. To think that they're intentionally withholding drugs or not trying to cure diseases to keep making money is simply ridiculous and paranoid.

      Sorry, it's not. Between a cure and a treatment, drug companies will pick the treatment. Those scientists might want to save the world, but they signed an NDA that might have them simply reduce the world's suffering through sustained use of a lesser product. The scientists don't make the research budget, they don't controll what gets kept under the lid.
      And if you think drug companies are very ethical and always act in the best interest of the public, you need to read a bit more about their past actions.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    7. Re:Move Further... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      commercials shown on daytime TV aren't representative of the entire field of pharmacological research.

      It's where most of the money goes. They spend more on advertising then R&D.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
    8. Re:Move Further... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      A good example of the priorities of a pharmaceutical company is today's story in the Guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/medicine/story/0,,179977 2,00.html about a drug developed by Genentech, Avastin, which is effective against colon cancer. Genentech has a winner and will make a good profit on it. Then ophthalmologists realised that minimal doses of the same drug can also prevent blindness caused by macular degeneration, a disease of old age for which there was no effective treatment. But Genentech does not want to license the drug for this use as it is. No sir, they will only sell a 'repackaged' version for 100X the original price. A real 'eye opener'.

    9. Re:Move Further... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Yes, pharmaceutical companies want to make a buck, but scientists are human beings and many of them are doing their best to create the best drugs they can to help people. To think that they're intentionally withholding drugs or not trying to cure diseases to keep making money is simply ridiculous and paranoid."

      Well...

      I'll certainly give the scientists their due. The question becomes how much control does the company have over the directions the scientists' research takes them?

      Here's sort of how I see it: I have no doubts that the drug companies are hard at work attempting to develop an AIDS vaccine. Are they attempting to work on a cure? Because, let's face it, there are far more people who are concerned about getting AIDS and would like a vaccine than there are people who have AIDS. I'm sure the research that goes into an AIDS vaccine will immeasurably help to develop a cure. But which pill would you expect to see on the market first--the cure or the vaccine?

    10. Re:Move Further... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      This is why we have universities. The drug companies might get there first because they have larger budgets and a narrower focus, but independent research labs will make the discovery eventually. Then the drug company doesn't get to sell the drug AND they have a MAJOR scandal on their hands.

    11. Re:Move Further... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      There are some diseases that cannot be cured yet. Less things are cures, but it is not cures being replaced by long term treatments. It is disease and deaths that are being replaced.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    12. Re:Move Further... by Scrameustache · · Score: 1

      This is why we have universities. The drug companies might get there first because they have larger budgets and a narrower focus, but independent research labs will make the discovery eventually.

      Well, ideally.
      Unfortunatly, they're in bed together. So it's not a given.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    13. Re:Move Further... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      Viral infections are extremely hard to cure, and far easier to vaccinate against. So logic dictates that a vaccine will be developed first.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    14. Re:Move Further... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      The first round of well-publicized ED pills also had some very well publicized processes. Pfizer aparantly was looking for a drug that increases bloodflow to a certain area of the body. One drug in particular turned out to be quite specific in its bloodflow increase, and though medically less useful, was found to have a very marketable effect and was then popularized by Bob Dole. (if only his candidacy ads were as good as his ED pill hawking ads...)

      Anyway, they weren't specifically looking for ED treatments, but they happened upon it during the course of their research. Should they forgo the potent revinue stream available from its sales simply because it doesn't happen to cure cancer or aids? Revinue that could be applied to those very activities?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    15. Re:Move Further... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      And how much did the FDA(insert appropriate regulatory agency for your country here) approval process cost for the new use? R&D and regulatory necessities far outstrips the marginal cost of producing another pill. especially in the case you've referred to where the potency needs were so much lower.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    16. Re:Move Further... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      In fact, nothing's a cure anymore, it's always a lengthy treatment that you have to keep taking or it stops working.

      What about the HPV vaccine approved less than a month ago?

      Yes, they're creating things like Viagra -- Hugh Hefner's favorite recreational drug -- but that's not the only thing.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    17. Re:Move Further... by Pedrito · · Score: 3, Informative

      "But Genentech does not want to license the drug for this use as it is. No sir, they will only sell a 'repackaged' version for 100X the original price. A real 'eye opener'."

      Actually, that's not really it at all, but thanks for playing. Avastin has been used by retinal specialists to treat wet macular degeneration (and presumed ocular hisoplasmosis syndrome, but that affects far fewer people so there aren't any real studies done with it as yet.) When retinal specialists got the idea to use an angiogenesis inhibitor to treat MD, the real problem was the size of the Avastin molecule. They were concerned that it was too large to penetrate the retinal membrane and thus wouldn't be effective against MD. Genentech immediately went back to the drawing board and developed Lucentis which is a smaller molecule that can more easily penetrate the retinal membrane.

      In the meantime, retinal specialists have been using Avastin with some success, but it's believed that Lucentis will be more successful because of the smaller molecule size. Genentech doesn't license the drug for a purpose, the FDA approves it for a purpose. The fact is that there have been no large scale trials with Avastin. The largest I know of is this one by Avery et.al. which had only 79 participants. But now that Lucentis is out, there are official trials being done with it and assuming it passes (which it appears all but certain that it will), it will probably be significantly better at treating MD than Avastin.

    18. Re:Move Further... by MadUndergrad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As callous as it sounds, time is the cure. Eventually all the people with AIDS will die, but with enough of the population vaccinated there will be no hosts and HIV will go extinct, much like smallpox, and much like polio should have by now (I'm looking at you, Nigeria). And, thanks to all the research done on treatments, those who do have AIDS will have a much longer and happier life than they might have otherwise. So you don't need a cure, just a vaccine.

    19. Re:Move Further... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, thank you for playing too...:-) - the point is that there is need for a compromise between cost and technological refinement. It is obviously to be welcomed that a truncated antibody (Lucentis) is tested and expectations are that it should diffuse better than the larger antibody (Avastis). Whether it will be more effective than Avastis should be tested in a clinical trial that directly compares Avastis and Lucentis.
      It may well turn out that the advantage of Lucentis is not enough to justify the higher cost. Would the patient prefer 3 treatments @ $2000 each versus 5 @ $20 each? But will Genentech offer this option? From the point of view of maximizing investors' profits it does not make much sense. Better just go for Lucentis.

    20. Re:Move Further... by nanoakron · · Score: 1

      Yours is a very US-centric, consumerist-medicine point of view. You think 'I'm paying for my healthcare, therefore I should be cured when I want to be.'

      Move over to nations with socialised healthcare systems and you'll find it's the government absorbing the costs of these pharmaceuticals. You may also find governments have much more clout when bargaining with pharmaceutical companies than the individual directly footing the bill. And then there's us here in the UK where direct marketing of prescription drugs to the general population is banned.

      So, the proposition that big pharma is ignoring cures for treatments is untrue at best and a big delusion at worst. When consumerism is taken out of healthcare, and doctors are the ones dictating prescription policy (and NICE here in the UK - look it up on wikipedia) there is no incentive not to cure people if they can. The idea that government is colluding with big pharma to prevent cures from being made is simply paranoia. Not every nation is like the US in healthcare planning.

      On a final note, you may find that doctors catch herpes and die of cancer just as often as the general population, even more telling is that the children and families of directors of big pharma companies also get sick and die of the same diseases that affect the rest of us. To suggest that there is a secret cache of cures just being held back from the public is wrong.

      But of course, I may just be a mouthpiece for GSK...so don't take your tinfoil hat off yet!

    21. Re:Move Further... by Pedrito · · Score: 1

      "But will Genentech offer this option?"

      That's the point. It's not up to Genentech. Within reason, doctors can choose the drug they give their patients. If retinal specialists determine or clinical trials show that Avantis is better than Lucentis, then the retinal specialists are going to use it. I suspect the price difference between the two will actually be far less than than the numbers you're clearly pulling out of your ass. (Avantis is about $300 per shot.) Not as much research had to go into the development of Lucentis because they already had a basic design for the molecule. It is not an "antibody", however. An antibody is a protein created by white blood cells that attach to and neutralize antigens.

      The FDA approves drugs for a use, not Genentech. Doctors can use drugs for other conditions if they think that it will be effective for those uses. This is called "off label" usage, which is what Avantis is in the treatment of anything other than colon cancer.

      As for the cost of drugs, new drugs tend to be very expensive, but this isn't entirely the fault of the drug companies. It's incredibly expensive to create a new drug. Generally a bunch of drugs are created to target a specific action. All those drugs are then tested in animals to see which ones actually do what they're supposed to and which ones don't. Then of the ones that do what they're supposed to, they have to test to see which ones are most effective and which ones are safest. After a number of rounds of tests in animals, the drugs then have to go into human trials to test for safety. They they have to go into human trials for efficacy. Every step requires tons of documentation that the FDA reviews. If the FDA doesn't approve the drug, then the drug company has to pretty much start over from scratch, with all that research and development lost. This is common and it's simply part of the drug development process.

      Smaller drug companies can be financially ruined by betting everything on a single drug or group of drugs that in the end don't get approved. So why do drug companies charge so much? Well, beyond the fact that they're obligated to make a profit for their stockholders, they also need money to use for further research and development into new drugs.

      A few years back, Genentech was just about betting the farm on Endostatin and Agiostatin which turned out to have less than glorious results. It damn near put them out of business. The fact that they've had a few winners has helped to strengthen them, but companies are always at risk of having bad luck with their new drugs and it could knock them back a few years in earnings.

      I'm not trying ot say drug companies can't do better, can't make some drugs available for less money, and can't be a little more humanitarian in their approach, but how does this make drug companies different from any other company? With few exceptions, most businesses are out there trying to make as much money as they can.

      On the other hand, what we really could use is a government that helps pay for these medications for the people that need them. Unviersal health care would be a damn good start. Then this kind of shit wouldn't have to be a problem for individuals. The government would be able to negotiate prices on behalf of all the people. Instead, we're left with a government that's more concerned about helping big businesses make a buck than helping Joe Average pay his bills.

    22. Re:Move Further... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      "But will Genentech offer this option?"

      That's the point. It's not up to Genentech. Within reason, doctors can choose the drug they give their patients.


      It is up to them in the sense that Genentech could apply for a licence for use of Avastin in wet macular degeneration, just like they decided to do for Lucentis. As mentioned before, initial results are very positive. While doctors can always go for 'off label' usage, this has important economic implications re availability within the NHS (i.e.: paid by the taxpayer vs paid as a private patient), as explained in the Guardian article. It might be irrelevant in the US, I don't know the system over there.

      numbers you're clearly pulling out of your ass. (Avantis is about $300 per shot.)


      It was clearly intended as a hypothetical example, since there are no results from such a trial, but the prices are taken from the article and converted at a rough rate of 2 dollars to 1 pound. Checking the rate today it should have been $1.85 to £1. They say in the article that one shot of Avastin is enough to treat dozens of patients with macular degeneration.

      It is not an "antibody", however. An antibody is a protein created by white blood cells that attach to and neutralize antigens.


      You are using a restrictive and somehow pedantic definition of antibody. For instance, many antibodies do not neutralize antigens. And although 'natural' antibodies are made by B lymphocytes, these days there are other possibilities, too. Anyway Genentech's website says: '...Lucentis is an antibody fragment...' and they should know.

      A few years back, Genentech was just about betting the farm on Endostatin and Agiostatin which turned out to have less than glorious results. It damn near put them out of business. The fact that they've had a few winners has helped to strengthen them, but companies are always at risk of having bad luck with their new drugs and it could knock them back a few years in earnings.

      I'm not trying ot say drug companies can't do better, can't make some drugs available for less money, and can't be a little more humanitarian in their approach, but how does this make drug companies different from any other company? With few exceptions, most businesses are out there trying to make as much money as they can.


      You see... Genentech has done a lot of good work which I really respect. I am delighted that Avastin is a success. Incentives are important. It's just that the Avastin/Lucentis story is a good example of the priority conflicts that may arise in this domain. No big deal, we just need to be aware and tell them when the greed is showing too much.

    23. Re:Move Further... by GigsVT · · Score: 1

      , they also need money to use for further research and development into new drugs.

      Then why do they spend more on advertising than R&D? I don't buy it.

      --
      I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
  12. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by Greventls · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hopefully the programmers are better than the current OS programmers. I know I wouldn't let Linux or Windows control me.

  13. My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 4, Funny

    My fellow republicans, it is time we got out our pitchforks and torches. The mad scientists are going too far, and frankly, I think we all know we're overdue for some lynchings. God didn't put us on this earth to suck cells out of unborn babies to heal the sick, but he gave us fire for good reason, and it is time we used some of it!

    --
    "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    1. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Where would you draw the line in scientific research?

    2. Re:My fellow republicans ... by EGSonikku · · Score: 1

      As an Atheist, I must say 'screw drawing a line.'

      People die, every day, all the time. I would rather have deaths with a purpose. If you could even calls these embryo's life anyway. As far as I know, the embryo's being used have no future, and to put it bluntly, are destined for the trash otherwise.

      And yes, I am a registered organ donar.

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
    3. Re:My fellow republicans ... by 955301 · · Score: 1


      Anything that they don't understand which their doctor has told them cannot help them personally with their problems.

      This mentality will be immediately reversed if this type of therapy proved to be successful one hour after any high ranking republican politician suffers a spinal injury or has a stroke.

      --
      You are checking your backups, aren't you?
    4. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      I'd just go with the standard we already have, which states that human subjects have special protections. If fetuses really require protection, just get them legally declared human beings from conception.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    5. Re:My fellow republicans ... by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Absolutely nowhere.

    6. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      When does a human become human?

    7. Re:My fellow republicans ... by EGSonikku · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Once the ability to think is achieved.
      Cogito ergo sum

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
    8. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Thank you for your honesty. Do you see a set of circumstances where the lives of what you would describe as human beings should be cut short for a "greater purpose"?

    9. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      And when is that? And what kind of thoughts?

    10. Re:My fellow republicans ... by tbischel · · Score: 1

      As an Atheist, I must say 'screw drawing a line.'

      Ah, I see you and Dr Josef Mengele would have a lot to talk about. It is a dangerous path to start walking down... those in power deeming which defenseless segments of society are fit only to be used for medical experiments. Imagine if next we lined up comatose patients, premature infants, cripples, the elderly, or some other marginalized group to be used for "the greater good". And don't tell me it could never happen... it has before.

    11. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      Well, if it was up to me, i'd say certainly not prior to brain formation.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    12. Re:My fellow republicans ... by EGSonikku · · Score: 0, Troll

      I'm not talking of such things, and to pull the 'Nazi" card invalidates any argument you were attempting to make, and i'll not dignify it with a 'response'. Respond to this discussion, do not attempt to segway it into somthing else.

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
    13. Re:My fellow republicans ... by EGSonikku · · Score: 1

      One assumes that before the brain develops, there is not a lot of thinking going on.

      As far as 'kind of thoughts' this is quite easy. A recognition of self. Prior to recognition of self, how can we 'kill' somthing that does not even know that it *is*?

      --
      - "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
    14. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Please remember that I am not the one who made the "Mengele" comment. However, didn't you say that you wouldn't draw any lines? Are you now saying that there are lines you wouldn't cross?

    15. Re:My fellow republicans ... by IMPerfection · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but I think you've mistaken yourself for a cognitive neuroscientist. Either that, or you have single-handedly discovered the exact moment during the gestation period that the fetus suddenly synthesizes self-consciousness, combining the myriad components of its developing central nervous system into a coherent picture of the self and surroundings. I hope you've sent letters to every scientific, religious, and philosophical body in the world; perhaps you could get letterhead printed up with "THAT'S EASY" at the top.

      Don't get me wrong, I herald the start of stem cell trials, but at least put forth a precursory effort to inform yourself before posting.

    16. Re:My fellow republicans ... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Isn't that what wars are all about?

    17. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      So if there is someone more useful to society than you, it is okay for him to kill you if he needs to do so to continue living?

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    18. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      A person in a temporary coma may not have a recognition of self at the time. Is it okay to kill them?

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    19. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hypothetical question: what happens if one day they discover a therapy that will cure MS? The problem is that it requires the pituatary glands of 70 year old humans? Will we then say, "Well, these people have lived most of their lives already, they are of little further "usefulness," so why not harvest what we need? Could anyone see this happening?

    20. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Millenniumman · · Score: 1

      I believe that is wrong, and that those people have a right to their lives.

      --
      Stupidity is like nuclear power, it can be used for good or evil. And you don't want to get any on you.
    21. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Gnostic+Ronin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm kinda mixed about this. I can see the point -- that we could end up saying that certain other segments of society are of more use as body parts, thus we can kill the elderly or the retarded or comatose. Think of all the organ "donations" (for example) that we could get by merely taking the demented 95 year olds out of nursing homes. And frankly, from a purely scientific standpoint, there's no reason that we couldn't get useable organs that way. But when it comes to morals, it's a horrible thing to do. Something that should be inconceivable, even though it would work.

      On the other hand, this technology could save thousands of lives. We could regrow body parts, replace dead brain cells and so on. The blind could see, the deaf could hear, the lame could walk. We could extend lifespans past 100 to maybe 120. who knows.

      I wish there was a way to get stem cells without killing embryos. I don't know that adult cells can do the same or not.

    22. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Gryle · · Score: 2

      I've run across a few stories, from time to time, about harvesting stem cells from umbilical cords. Last I heard, though, scientists could only harvest a few types of cells from the cords. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    23. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Eccles · · Score: 1

      No. Life ends when the brain is no longer capable of thinking ever again. So symmetrically, life begins when the brain is capable of thought. I.e., not embryos.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    24. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Samurai · · Score: 1

      Once it has its first linux kernel patch accepted?

    25. Re:My fellow republicans ... by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      Personally, I draw the line at Axlotl tanks. Unfortunately, we seem to be getting closer to the Bene Tleilax all the time.

    26. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

      Personally, I draw the line at Axlotl tanks. Unfortunately, we seem to be getting closer to the Bene Tleilax all the time.

      Unfortunately? I for one welcome our new mailorder russian facedancer brides!

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    27. Re:My fellow republicans ... by east+coast · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If fetuses really require protection, just get them legally declared human beings from conception.

      Ah, they already are... sometimes... and this is the big problem with this debate...

      You see, a mother has the right to an abortion without it being declared murder but if you kill a woman who is pregnant for even a single day you'll get hit with two counts of murder. Isn't the double standard great? Basically, from a very legal standpoint the government has decided that depending on the mothers state of mind determines if a fetus is a human, the fetus itself is just a bystander.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    28. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am a republican, and am against embryonic stem cell treatment. I will point out that adult stem cell treatment already has 3 or 4 clinical trials underway, rejection isn't even an issue (as it is with embryonic stem cells), and it avoids all of the ethical dilemmas. So why is embryonic stem cell treatment getting all the research funding? You liberals want an issue that lets you use science to support abortion (Which I am not entirely against). Adult stem cells can theoretically do everything embryonic stem cells can do, and have been shown to be able to do the easier things much easier (that's why they're already in clinical trials), although theoretically some of the harder stuff might be a little more difficult.

    29. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think most liberals would just like to let scientists do their jobs, holding to the ethical codes required by their grants and their universities. I think only the Republican side ties this issue to abortion. Since our side doesn't even think that such research rises to the level of abortion, it's a non-issue for us.

      And clearly, a large number of scientists believe that embryonic stem cells hold promise that adult stem cells do not, claiming otherwise is just falsifying the evidence to try to support your side of the argument. But you shouldn't do that, argument from false premises is a meaningless waste of time.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    30. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1
      I think most liberals would just like to let scientists do their jobs, holding to the ethical codes required by their grants and their universities. I think only the Republican side ties this issue to abortion. Since our side doesn't even think that such research rises to the level of abortion, it's a non-issue for us.
      I for one would like some imput into the "ethical codes required by their grants and universities." Yes, I want scientists to do their jobs. But I see the job of a scientist as that of benefitting humanity-- all of humanity-- not part of humanity at the expense of another-- the unborn. I approach this subject not as a Republican, but as a Christian (the two are not synonymous).
    31. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then these people will automatically discount anything you say. In fact, it just makes them feel better - "I knew I was right - a Christian disagrees with me!". Admitting you are a Christian automatically docks you about 30 IQ points and is generally a bad idea - you need to come up with equivalent secular arguments to cut through their bigotry.

    32. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      No, they are not synonymous, but quite problematically, the Republican party has taken to pandering to the Christian faith. As a non-Christian, I would prefer if your oppressive religion were kept out of the government. If you want to work privately to influence Universities, do so, the opportunities are there. You can easily see just how successful Christian run Universities are. Personally, I'd rather not see our society sink into another dark age, but that's just me, and unfortunately, you represent more people. Equally unfortunately, a billion dumb people can all be equally wrong, and in a democracy they can rule over a small minority of smart people. Which will turn out quite positively for you in the short run, but you may find yourself wishing things had gone another way when more than 3 times as many Muslims decide to vote in favor of ruling you with sharia law.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    33. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Like I said.

    34. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      Sorry, not sure what post you're referring to, but thanks I guess. :-)

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    35. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1
      Hi,

      Well, I dispute your characterization of Christianity as oppressive. And I could argue ways in which your life and mine both would be much poorer for the lack of influence of Christianity on our culture-- I assume you are an American(but such a discussion would take us far off-topic). It seems to me that any society that fails to recognize the value of human life risks itself being characterized as oppressive. I wonder if unborn children had their own voice in these matters if they would call Christians(or others) who favor their right to life as "oppressive." It seems to me that forcible termination of an unborn child is "oppressive."

      Yes, as you point out, there are opportunities to influence universities. But as US citizens, we are entitled under the Constitution to freedom of speech and the right to vote. Personally, I do not believe the Republican party is the hope of America. Christianity cannot be identified with any particular party. Government does not change human hearts-- only God can. With that said, the citizens of a given country should work for its good, and for me, the good of our country is to respect the unborn.

      It seems to me that a utilitarian ethic which values human life according to its "usefulness" holds strong promise to bring about another set of Dark Ages. When we begin to look at human life as a vehicle for research which then can be discarded, it sets a dangerous precedent. Perhaps not now, but at a later time, some group might say, "Well, this group isn't really contributing very much-- couldn't they be eliminated? Wouldn't it benefit the majority?" Only a society that truly values and protects its weakest members (whether they are the unborn or the elderly) can truly be called "enlightened." An abundance of knowledge and scientific technique is not enlightenment-- the wisdom to use knowledge and science in a compassionate way that benefits all people--including the unborn--only that can be called true education and learning.

      Equally unfortunately, a billion dumb people can all be equally wrong, and in a democracy they can rule over a small minority of smart people.

      I believe in education, but I really don't believe that intelligence is the most important part of leadership. If I had to choose between someone who really loved me and had my best interests at heart and someone who had a Ph.d, but whom I didn't trust-- I would pick the "dumb person" every time. "Smart" people have done a lot of evil in this world. The present Chinese leadership could be called, "smart," but I daresay you would not want to live under their leadership.

      As far as the Muslims are concerned, perhaps I will suffer under shariah law one day. But I see a far greater threat to my well being from another source-- a source that defines disagreement with its principles as "hate speech." At present I find much more probably of enduring imprisionment by these forces than the Muslims.

    36. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      I wonder if unborn children had their own voice in these matters if they would call Christians(or others) who favor their right to life as "oppressive." It seems to me that forcible termination of an unborn child is "oppressive."

      I wonder if sperm could vote just what sort of laws we'd be living under today. Or if children could vote. Or if only the steak you ate before you conceived that provided the protein for your sperm had a voice. We recognize many steps along the road to personhood out of necessity, we could not live at all otherwise. A steak is not a person, a sperm is not a person, a fertilized egg is not a person, a blob of cells with no brain is not a person, a born baby is a person, a child is a person, an adult is a person, an elderly adult is a person, a corpse is not a person, fertilized land is not a person, cow feed is not a person, a cow is not a person, a steak is not a person.

      I'm glad to hear you don't think the Republican party is the hope of the nation, unfortunately, their otherwise reasonable and responsible social agenda and financial ideas (not that they stick well to those lately) are significantly coopted by the 'religious right'. Personally, I would love to see the two factions in separate parties, their ideas are essentially unrelated.

      But I see a far greater threat to my well being from another source-- a source that defines disagreement with its principles as "hate speech."

      As far as I've ever heard it described, hate speech is promoting the unwellbeing of some specific group, not disagreement with liberal principles (assuming thats the group you meant). If, after going to such lengths to press the cause of not killing the unborn, you'd like to advocate for the beating and killing of homosexuals, well, personally I favor your right to free speech, but I can also certainly comprehend the desire not to allow people to agitate for violence against specific religious, ethnic, or cultural groups.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    37. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1
      We recognize many steps along the road to personhood out of necessity, we could not live at all otherwise. A steak is not a person, a sperm is not a person, a fertilized egg is not a person, a blob of cells with no brain is not a person, a born baby is a person, a child is a person, an adult is a person, an elderly adult is a person, a corpse is not a person, fertilized land is not a person, cow feed is not a person, a cow is not a person, a steak is not a person.
      What you are describing are stages of maturity, not personhood. It is possible to be a person yet not be a mature person. A sperm cell is not a human being because it lacks the potential to grow and mature any further. An embryo has this potential. It is a person. It is an undeveloped person-- but it is a person. A seed is not a tree, but it will be a tree--unless it is killed. To kill the seed is to kill the tree that will be. To kill the child as embryo is to kill the child that will be. The only question is, "Will we allow it to have the same opportunity for growth that we had?" Furthermore, there is more to being a person than biological processes or lack thereof. My Christian faith (which I know you don't share) recognizes that personhood continues even after physical death. As far as hate speech goes, I do not need a lot of imagination to forsse a time when criticism of certain lifestyles is termed "hate speech" and prosecuted as such even though it does not advocate killing or harming members of another group.
    38. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      A sperm cell is not a human being because it lacks the potential to grow and mature any further.

      To me you lost the argument right there, because that's just blatantly untrue. All it needs is the right environment, no different from the way a fertilized egg requires the right environment, or a steak requires the right environment.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    39. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Actually, a sperm requires an egg cell (or an egg cell requires a sperm cell if you wish) to constitute an embryo which I define as the least developed form of human being. A sperm cell, by itself, is incapable of growing becoming an embryo.

    40. Re:My fellow republicans ... by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      Also, could you explain to me how a steak grows and matures?

    41. Re:My fellow republicans ... by Surt · · Score: 1

      My point is that the embryo cannot grow and mature without the help of a womb, as the sperm requires the egg. The steak requires the stomach to render it into proteins, to be constituted into sperm, to join the egg to develop in the womb. The distinction at the embryo is just one of crossing some certain line, as arbitrary as the others.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
  14. The unspoken Importance of Procedural Science by Quirk · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Science proceeds in large part by surpassing new thresholds. Many thresholds are surpassed by advances in applied technology. Today much of science, if done correctly, needs the professional touch of scientists who can enact complex procedures correctly. The examples below are from The Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th Edition. The material in chapter 8, Cell isolation gives insight into the advances made in procedural science that underlie the testing and validation or falsification of new theories.

    An interesting example is as follows:" A fluorescence-activated cell sorter. A cell passing through the laser beam is monitored for fluorescence. Droplets containing single cells are given a negative or positive charge, depending on whether the cell is fluorescent or not. The droplets are then deflected by an electric field into collection tubes according to their charge. Note that the cell concentration must be adjusted so that most droplets contain no cells and flow to a waste container together with any cell clumps."

    The empirical scientists that correctly implement such challenging procedures are rarely mentioned.

    --
    "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
    Cohen
    1. Re:The unspoken Importance of Procedural Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck has this got to do with anything ?

    2. Re:The unspoken Importance of Procedural Science by Quirk · · Score: 1

      So Sorry! I, I dunno, I just lost my head. Next time I'll be sure to run it past you personally.

      --
      "Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
      Cohen
    3. Re:The unspoken Importance of Procedural Science by whalewatcher · · Score: 1

      What's challenging about FACS? It's been routine since at least the mid-nineties when I last worked in a lab routinely dealing with it. (Not that I've done so myself.)

  15. come now by dfedfe · · Score: 1

    can't we have one discussion here that doesn't compare microsoft to a disease?

  16. What do you eat? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

    What in the world do you eat? Do you survive off of just a salt lick or something?

  17. Re: First embryonic stem cell trial on the cards by stemceller · · Score: 1

    I think this is big and could lead to more trials. I definitely this was a positive result from California's prop 71. Let's hope it gets the bill stuck in Congress passed. I just posted a summary of this and other relevant stem cell science news dating back to December '04 on my blog, http://bensstemcellnews.blogspot.com/ You'll see a lot of advancements are being made. And check out a TV spot I was in for prop 71 called "Twins." If anyone wants to link to me or me to link to them, let me know!

  18. it is inevitable... by sc0p3 · · Score: 1

    thats what Agent Smith thought, and we all know how that turned out..

  19. That's great but why not take it one step further by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And test it simultaneously with other types of stem cells (like ones found in the stomach of an adult.) That way, we can see what the differences are between normal stem cells and embryonic stem cells. This way, naysayers of whichever side of the debate will have hard evidence to (support, oppose) their claim and settle things.

  20. Creating a life to destroy it.. by Mr+EdgEy · · Score: 1

    If the embryos never achieve consciousness, there's nothing wrong in my eyes with creating them to harvest stem cells. They'd never have grown into fully developed babies anyway.

    1. Re:Creating a life to destroy it.. by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      No, they won't if they're not given a chance.

    2. Re:Creating a life to destroy it.. by Mr+EdgEy · · Score: 1

      Grow them and harvest cells = no chance to live. Don't grow them = no chance to live. It's not like the cells are harvested from random babies...

    3. Re:Creating a life to destroy it.. by techguyct · · Score: 1
      While I respect your opinion, I must argue with your assertion of the facts that "They'd never have grown into fully developed babies anyway." This statement is often reported by the media, but the fact is that these embryos have all their instructions and DNA to continue their lives if given the opportunity.

      My wife and I are currently pregnant with one of these so-called "leftover" embryos whose genetic parents cared enough to make the embryo available for adoption. I truly believe that life begins at conception and it seems that the medical community doesn't dispute that. We simply come up with other ways to describe a baby so that it doesn't bring about the emotions of a human life--the word "fetus" for example. In my opinion, these babies deserve a chance at continuing life--just as we all do.

      The promises and claims of stem cell research sound great. My heart goes out to those who suffer or have loved ones who have suffered from an illness that we might someday have a cure for with stem cell research. However, we shouldn't be taking children's lives to do this research. I'm not a medical expert, but it seems to me that it would be more beneficial to expand research using adult stem cells rather than choosing to kill a child for the sake of research.

  21. Im ready.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I got my protest sign ready. ESC Research is inhuman and immoral.

            Will someone please think of the young babies?

    1. Re:Im ready.. by hasbeard · · Score: 1

      I know this is a standard Slashdot joke, but it's really not funny.

    2. Re:Im ready.. by ColPanic · · Score: 0

      Hey, aren't you that guy who drives around downtown with the nut job jesus quotes on his truck, and the aborted fetus pictures?

      Mmmm.. embryos.

      --
      -------- I dig Mobile Phones
    3. Re:Im ready.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First half was a joke, later half wasn't it

      ESC still is inhuman and immoral. What's next, fully functional human clones so we can extend our own lives?

      NASA and other scientists are searching the galaxy for life in a single cell. So from science point of view, Life begins at the cell level.

    4. Re:Im ready.. by Ninjaesque+One · · Score: 0

      Yes, but you don't really care about killing a mosquito, don't you? We're arguing about humanity, and we're kinda assuming that involves some kind of self-awareness.

      --
      Ninjas and pirates. How piquant.
  22. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by hawfizzle · · Score: 1

    whenever people say competitive world environment, i wonder if they are aware of who is enforcing its competitiveness.

  23. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

    Um, right. So because some people (you) don't like some aspects of the cycle of life, the rest of us must reject it also?

  24. Re:The article is lying! by tddoog · · Score: 1
    Please provide references so we know that you are not some anti-embryonic stem cell crackpot.

    Oh yeah, Cancer is not a death sentence. Life certainly is, though.

  25. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by Gryle · · Score: 1

    But with Linux, you'll be able to edit your DNA as you see fit. Join the OpenGene Revolution!

    --
    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
  26. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by Eccles · · Score: 1

    And with enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. So just edit your DNA to give yourself a thousand eyeballs, and it should be bug free!

    --
    Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
  27. Re:babybooms, as we age, will need these technolog by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 1

    And with enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow. So just edit your DNA to give yourself a thousand eyeballs, and it should be bug free!

    Ehmmm, yes. One word: shampoo. In all 1000 eyeballs at once. Enjoy :-)

    --

    People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
  28. Lecithin, Myelin & Sciatica by Geosota · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A couple of years ago, I developed sciatica (which presented literally as a pain in the a**). Sciatica is an irritation of the sciatic nerve, which is about as fat as a finger and snakes from the spine through the hip to the leg. While some sciatica comes from collapsed discs, mine was a result of trying to train to quickly for a marathon and so damaging the myelin sheath. After surveying the available options (surgery, drugs, sleeping with a special pillow strapped between my knees) I decided to give lecithin a shot. It's an all-purpose bio-lube good for your heart, hair loss, etc. Also, it is cheap, natural, available over the counter, and non-toxic (your body burns off any excess as food). It worked for me. The science is out there (e.g., http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/68/3/480) but don't expect to hear much about it because nobody is going to make money off lecithin. It comes from soy beans. A big bottle is just a couple bucks.

    1. Re:Lecithin, Myelin & Sciatica by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Well I'm glad lecithin worked for you, but IIRC, "The Juiceman" made the same claims about mashed up carrots and plums.

      The reason modern medical science stays away from these miracle all-purpos elixirs has nothing to do with conspiracy and evertying to do with the scientific method. Since the effects are so varied and often not particularly pronounced, it is often impossible to isolate them in any stastically meaningfully way.

      disclaimer: IANAMD.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    2. Re:Lecithin, Myelin & Sciatica by Geosota · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I'm not in the wacko sector. I majored in biotech at MIT. I know research. It follows the money. Nothing wrong with that. All I'm saying is, if you wake up with sciatica there will be people advising you to have surgery, to take all sorts of pharma, and even tie a special pillow between your knees at night. When I reached for the leci, it was because I knew it was in the same phospholipid zone as myelin. And it worked. If you would rather have someone do your medical thinking for you, I think you are on the right track.

  29. Other segments of society by Sloppy · · Score: 1
    I can see the point -- that we could end up saying that certain other segments of society are of more use as body parts
    [emphasis mine]

    Other segments? Are little specs of goo with no nervous system and less interactive personality than a lab rat, a "segment of society?"

    If Yes, then I guess I see the point.

    But I see the hypothesis as absurd. No segment of society is being used here, no one is suggesting that some underclass be abused (which would be of alarming concern), so there is no scary risk here.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    1. Re:Other segments of society by hasbeard · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am not "suggesting" I am saying that an underclass of society, "the unborn" are being abused.

  30. Adult stem cell advances by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are people ignoring adult stem cell advancements? Helping the paralyzed to walk, curing type 1 diabetes in mice, pushing various types of cancer into remission, and helping cirrosis of the liver, amongst others. They've also been able to take strands of hair from burn victims, take the stem cells from the follicles (left on the tip of the strand), and grow skin flaps to be used in place of skin grafts.

    Meanwhile, you have embryonic stem cells which they tried in patients with Parkinson's. Disaster. According to the results, they had tics, couldn't stop chewing... the cure was worse than the disease! Or the monster tumors, where injected embryonic stem cells turn into a large mass of hair, skin, and bone... inside the person.

    Why do so called objective scientists ignore actual advances in one area for potential in another area? Why ignore the real and rational?

  31. Segue! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Segue. The word you're looking for is segue. The Segway is that silly motorized scooter (although it is spelled the way segue is pronounced).

    Anyhow, I personally would start by drawing lines saying "don't kill people" and "don't torture people" (which would include a concept of "informed consent" for those who choose to participate in medical testing).

    The real trick is the definition of "people" ... You can say "any homo sapien organism" but people seem to prefer "whenever it looks human and we suppose it might have some level of intelligence" (which actually takes quite a while to develop).

  32. Project lead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dr. Mengele?

  33. hooray for nth place by olman · · Score: 1

    That is, the first US clinical trial. That would be, oh, decade behind the rest of the world?

  34. "First" my least significant bit by DynaSoar · · Score: 1

    The first human stem cell clinical trials were done in the early 80's on the "frozen addicts", who got instant Parkinson's from a bad batch of home made fentanyl (see "The Frozen Addicts" by Palfreman and Langston). The first and worst case was mostly cured in a matter of weeks.

    To respond to an early reply re: "smart pills". The first one was patented so long ago the patent has expired. It was invented by Albert Hoffman. He's remembered for inventing LSD, but he deserves a Nobel for inventing nootropics.

    Speaking of Nobels, Eric Kandel (who got it for his work on dopamine) has started a company intending to invent the world's first smart drugs. How can this be, if it's already been done? Same excuse for the inaccuracy about the first stem cell trials: the originals weren't done in the US.

    The stem cell stuff, that's sheer US arrogance and ignorance. The smart drug stuff has an even worse excuse. The patent was wholly owned by Sandoz of Switzerland, and no US pharma company could make or sell it, so the FDA wouldn't approve it despite the fact that it was one of the safest (ie. no interactions, side effects generally beneficial such as regulating high blood pressure) drugs invented.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  35. ESC by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

    ESC research is essential and vital.

    Won't someone please think of the vi users?

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?