Lab Tuned to Gravity's 'Ripples'

Krishna Dagli writes "One of the great scientific experiments of our age is now fully underway. Success would confirm fundamental physical theories and open a new window on the Universe, enabling scientists to probe the moment of creation itself. The experiment is trying to detect ripples created in the fabric of space-time that sweep out from merging black holes or exploding stars and detection would be a final test of Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity. "

Comments

negative outcomes?

[m874t232]

What are the alternative models if gravity waves simply don't exist?

It's important to have alternative hypotheses, among other reasons, in order to be able to determine when you got a null result. Until the theoreticians have done their homework and provided a reasonable and plausible alternative hypothesis, perhaps we shouldn't be investing millions of dollars (euros) in these kinds of experiments.

Re:negative outcomes?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course we should be investing in this technology. Even if it does cost us millions, nay even billions. Gravity is the single most important universal effect, and the sooner we know what it is, and how to manipulate it the better. A few billion upfront for that sort of tech is peanuts.

If the research doesn't pan out, then we will move on and create new hypothesis. You can only throw so much money at one thing at a time. If we fail, we redo.

just imagine the possibilities. Flying car anyone?

Baz

Re:negative outcomes?

[mwvdlee]

Plausible alternative hypotheses are nice to have, but shouldn't be a requirement for the simple reason that there might not be any plausible alternatives. Or at least none concievable with current knowledge, thus further necessitating the gathering of scientific proof as it can show whether you're missing some vital piece of knowledge.

Re:negative outcomes?

[TheChrisMan]

"It's important to have alternative hypotheses"

Is it? If I remember correctly the lack of an alternate hypothesis when Michelson and Morley failed to detect the aether caused Einstein to beging pondering special relativity.

Re:negative outcomes?

[Tim C]

It's important to have alternative hypotheses, among other reasons, in order to be able to determine when you got a null result. Until the theoreticians have done their homework and provided a reasonable and plausible alternative hypothesis, perhaps we shouldn't be investing millions of dollars (euros) in these kinds of experiments.

That's simply not true. Right now, all our understanding of how the universe works points towards the existence of gravity waves. If we fail to detect them, then one of two things is true:

1) The equipment was wrong
2) The theory was wrong

Until such time as it looks like 2) is the case, there's no basis for exploring alternative hypotheses, especially given that so far, we have no reason to doubt the current one and every reason to believe that it's either valid, or very nearly so.

As for needing an alternative to be able to recognise a null value, that's not the case either. The current theory makes a prediction. If we don't make an observation that matches prediction within expected tolerance and we can find nothing wrong with the equipment, then the theory is most likely wrong. At that point, you can bet your life that people will be scrabbling to work out how, and what needs to be done to correct (or replace) it.

Think of it this way - what if the theory is correct, and there simply *isn't* any "reasonable and plausible alternative hypothesis" (perhaps because we can't think of any, perhaps because there simply aren't any). Should we *never* attempt to confirm it?

Re:negative outcomes?

[LordVader717]

Try this. The experiment is strikingly similar to the Michelson-Morley interferometer, an experiment which also returned a null-result, trying to detect an "aether" for electrmagnetic waves.

The problem with these kinds experiments though is that results are very easily misinterpreted, because we really have no, shall we say, "creativity" in our imagination about such fundamental physics.

The Sagnac-interferometer (which BTW I will be building for a project) seemed to prove the presence of the aether that the Michelson-Morley experiment couldn't detect. It turned out to be a misinterpretation because they didn't quite grasp the concepts. (It turned out to be very useful anyway, as it's the basis for laser-gyroscopes)

This makes experiments like this even more important because if you are to accept any theories as "confirmed" or develop upon them, you need to research every possible result and implication.

Moment of Creation

[Anonymous Coward]

enabling scientists to probe the moment of creation itself

In other words, scientists will get a touch of His Noodly Appendage, and a bath in His Mighty Sauce.

Mmmmmm.. Ripples.....

[insanarchist]

In later tests, the scientists plan to add sour cream and cheddar to the ripples in an effort to test gravity's potential for inter-galactic tastiness!

Eddies in the Space/Time Continuum

[Ohreally_factor]

No, seriously, he is. Anyone have any idea on how to get him out?

Will they measure the speed of gravity as well?

[master_p]

Right now we are uncertain of the exact speed of gravity. Some measurements resulted in speed between 0.8 and 1.2 times the speed of light (according to this). If the speed of gravity is greater than the speed of light, does that violate the general relativity? There are many consequences.

It is important that we find what gravity is, because if it is a wave of particles, then maybe there is a possibility to find a way to shield gravity away. Shielding gravity would be a major step towards space exploration.

Re:Will they measure the speed of gravity as well?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right now we are uncertain of the exact speed of gravity.

We are always "uncertain" about the exact value of any physical quantity, because no quantity can be measured with infinite precision.

There is very little doubt that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light.

Some measurements resulted in speed between 0.8 and 1.2 times the speed of light

The Taylor-Hulse pulsar measurements have measured the accuracy of that speed to within a few percent, much better than the 20% figure you cite. Furthermore, most of the gravitational physics community is convinced that the experiment mentioned did not measure the speed of gravity (as the Wikipedia article alludes to).

If the speed of gravity is greater than the speed of light, does that violate the general relativity?

Yes. It also violates special relativity and the laws of cause and effect.

It is important that we find what gravity is, because if it is a wave of particles, then maybe there is a possibility to find a way to shield gravity away.

Gravity being "a wave of particles" does not imply that it can be shielded, and gravitational wave detectors are unlikely to tell us anything about that issue.

Even if it were possible to "shield gravity" (very unlikely), it is almost certainly impossible to do it with any realistic technology, because we already have a thorough understanding of gravity on the scales that our technology can reach in the forseeable future.

A little realism: LIGO and its kin may teach us something new about gravity near neutron stars and black holes, but the most likely outcome is that it will simply serve as a telescope to probe astrophysical phenomena not detectable in visible light. It is very farfetched to think that it will lead to antigravity or any Star Trek type applications.

Re:Will they measure the speed of gravity as well?

[flumps]

... doesn't that rather pre-suppose two things?:

        1. The aforementioned Anti-gravity and

        2. That you will become important enough to know a Baron?

Both, I would say, are equally improbably but 2 perhaps slightly more so :P

Love the idea though rofl

Re:Will they measure the speed of gravity as well?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

no quantity can be measured with infinite precision.

There is one apple on my desk. Not 0.99. Not 1.00002. Exactly one. I measured.

Re:ripples in fabric of space-time?

[RocketRainbow]

Runlevel 5 asked: "what can be used with the information the scientists gain?"

It would certainly explain the fact that there seems to be an upper limit on the rotational frequency of neutron stars (pulsars). Likewise, you can also expect to see gravity waves in the oscillation of large stellar bodies in collision, which might also give insight into gamma ray bursts.

One of the most interesting things we can do with gravity waves is look back beyond the cosmic microwave background and watch the early gravitational shape of the universe, perhaps detect a sort of cosmic gravity wave background. It's something we've never done before, so it's a sort of "let's see what we find when we turn this thing on" experiment - we could find all sorts of things about the shape and evolution of the universe which might in turn make a tremendous difference to the way we interpret earth-bound physics.

There is no danger from gravity waves and no apparent engineering purpose (not even warp drive) because they are astonishingly small - even a 4m long laser can't detect them (yet! - some technological improvements are on the way). This is because gravity is such a weak force that the only detectable gravity waves are caused by extremely massive bodies moving at extremely high speeds; even then, the strongest waves are easily able to dissipate to "nothing" before we would ever notice them. (In numbers, the best gravity wave LIGO could ever expect to see would cause the scientist's beautiful assistant to have her dimensions perpendicular to the wave oscillate at an amplitude of 10^-21m.) So it's not just a matter of understanding and engineering gravity waves, rather of using them to confirm or falsify key elements of our physical and cosmological theories.

Of course, theoretical physics has some interesting and wholly unexpected practical outcomes... Your computer uses quantum mechanical transistors - your webcam uses a quantum mechanical CCD (photoelectric effect) and medical tomography, using astronomical algorithms, continues to save lives.

You can participate

[mike449]

I am surprised nobody mentioned Einstein@home - http://einstein.phys.uwm.edu/.
This experiment uses distributed computing to process their results,
and you can participate.

Re:let me be more precise

[Open_The_Box]

OK. I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but I really have to jump on that one.

It's not just about confirming Einstein's theory of general relativity. Or, in fact any of the other relativistic gravitational theories - most (if not all - been a while since I checked on the basic theory and they might have come up with some new ones) of which require the existence of gravitational waves. It's not simply a case of checking that the theory is correct - there are indirect measurements which have already done this, it's about directly detecting something we're sure is there. Don't get me wrong; in part, you're correct - if the outcome is negative, then we can set an upper limit (i.e. the waves must be of lower magnitude than X at frequency Y). This in itself allows corroboration with cosmological models and provides a valuable experimental check against predictions of numerical relativity such as the strain effect on space due to the merger of black holes.

But when a positive detection is made it will provide confirmation/empirical data on the processes involved in such violent astronomical phenomena. What are the physical processes involved in the inspiral of a binary system? Do pulsars with asymmetrical mass distribution really lose energy as gravitational waves? We know about the cosmic microwave background, what about the gravitational wave stochastic background?

It's not just a case of "There's a peak on the trace! Well, that's our job done! Who's for tea and biscuits?" The potential gains in knowledge of astronomy, astrophysics and even particle physics are vast. Not to mention the gains in laser technologies, control systems, material science and computational analysis that such a project brings. Just by designing and building these instruments we push the boundaries of what's known. Of course there will still be tea and biscuits (well, maybe beer and doughnuts) but that's half the fun right there.

OK. Rant over. Everyone back on your heads.