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Internet Deconstructing State Church in Finland
Agnostic writes "Freethinkers of the city of Tampere, who advocate separation of state and church in Finland, created a Web site
in 2003
to assist people in resigning from the church. The Web site soon became a big success in Finland. 39% of all resignations in 2004 went through the web site and 69% of all resignations in 2005. In the same process 22% more people resigned from the church in 2005 than in 2004. The most common reason cited for resigning from the church has been saving church income tax (1.3% on average)."
it's just on top of the normal tax, built in to the system so you don't pay them seperately... so you don't think about it even usually unless someone mentions it to you and tells you that there is a website where you can resign.
in medieval or something times it was 1/10th of income(or potates/wheat/etc you produced.. I'm not exactly sure how it went, been a while since I was in history class).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Dismantle is indeed part of common english, please get a good dictionary (Meriam-Webster online, for example). Deconstruct however is a literary term, a type of criticism.
In Finland, if you're a member of the State Church (which you are by birth, but you can withdraw), they get to add a fixed percentage to your income tax bill. Sweden had the same system until 2000 when they abolished the State Church (the Church itself still exists, of course, but it's no longer a Government institution.) There, the system has been modified so that any religious organization which a defined membership that meets certain criteria can apply to tax their members. I think the rate is still set by the Government, though.
Church income tax (Kirkollisvero) is only paid by members of Finnish Evangelic Lutheran Church and the Finnish Orthodox Church. It's just what it seems like: Part of the income tax (exactly how much depends on the city you live in) goes to the church. No other churches are currently entitled to this stuff, but other churches are, like all other organisations, free to collect membership fees as they see necessary.
It's an old, old, OLD taxation relic, and due to the size of these churches, the system makes sense for their operations.
Apparently, it's also possible to apply for exemption of the church income tax, partially or wholly.
(Thanks to fi.wikipedia...)
Slashcode turned my "does not equal" sign into a question mark. Deconstruct != dismantle. Contrary to the implication of the title, this article has nothing to do with deconstruction.
<nitpick> ...which you are by birth, if you've been baptised, and thus member of the church and thus furthermore listed in the Church's census registry... </nitpick>
As a rule, people born in Lutheran or Orthodox (even in name only) families get their kids baptised and thus to the church's books. Hardcore atheist families can always get their kids named in the boring red-tape way, and I think there's no law against church-goers doing that, aside of getting more than a few weird looks... =)
Besides, it's not like the kid is going to pay the taxes in question until they can actually get a job, anyway =)
No, the problem in Finland(I live here) is that the Lutheran church is so dominant(in numbers, but not in influence) that the state has agreed to help them collect money, using the our regular taxation system. This is NOT an action of a state separated from the church, and also unfair against the other religions in the country. Mind you, the official line of the state is that they have nothing to do with the church. Yet almost all governmental ceremonies are atleast partially Lutheran, considering the location(church) or content(psalms, biblereading).
On top of this, ALL businesses pay a certain percentage of church-tax. It doesn't matter if none of the employees are members of the church, hell even Muslim-owned businesses pay taxes to the Lutheran church.
I used this webpage to resign last year, for purely faith-related reasons. Some regions of the country do not allow resigning by email, even if you add all the vital information. I was sent a letter home with a form to fill in and sign, and a return envelope. I was officially not part of the church 5 weeks after I used that webpage. This because we have what they call a "regret-month", which basicly just makes you wait 4 weeks before it makes it official. Like I haven't thought through my choice BEFORE sending in my resignation.
She: Hey, are you a traitor? Me: No, I'm atheist.
You have to understand a couple of things about the Finnish Lutheran Church and its role in the Finnish society first.
Historically everyone in Finland belonged to the Lutheran Church. Children born were automatically "enrolled" if at least one of the parents (or maybe just the mother) belonged to the church, and since 99% (or so) did, practically all children born in Finland became Lutherans as well.
It didn't matter how religious you were, if you were born in Finland, you were a Lutheran, even if you worshipped pagan Gods in your free time. You had to specifically resign from the church to stop being a Lutheran.
The Finnish people are not particularly religious, especially the younger generations. People go to church only when it's forced upon them (e.g. beginning and end of school year) or for "special occassions" (e.g. christening babies, confirmation, weddings and funerals). Extremely few people attend Sunday service.
Christening and confirmation are usually done mostly by habit rather than by some religious need. Confirmation, in particular, has more to do with teenagers having a blast (and sneaking into each others' rooms during the summer camps most teenagers attend to get the confirmation done) than anything religious. It's more of a rite of passage than reaffirming your belief in God.
Finally the Lutheran Churches' privilege to tax people in Finland has been very unpopular for at least two decades. People don't quite see why they have to pay part of their income to an institution that they have no connection with.
This has nothing to do with any anti-religious movement. The Freethinkers are not bashing Christianity, they are just making it easier for people, who are not religious, to resign from the church.
In Soviet Russia, I ruled you
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenshi p_776.html
It's not just a quick form though you have to sign an oath in front of a diplomat.
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
i agree completely. I signed up when i tried getting a free iPod or something. and my conversation when something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYIXzfhel8
I think people use 'Ubuntu' in their posts to sound cool.
Given that, what does "Separation of church and state" really mean, anyway?
It means that there should be no official religion for a country - since a religion is chosen by the people (or by their parents), and can't be enforced. Clergy should not occupy state offices (i.e. governor, senator, etc). Religion should be excempt from taxes.
I live in Mexico, and we have this distinction very clear. There's also been an "anticatholicism" idea in the government, because for more than 70 years (until 2000), it was the freemasons who were presidents and ruled the country. So more than a separation between Church and State, we have a Church persecuted by the State. The most agressive attack against the Catholic Church was when Plutarco Elias Calles became president and declared religion illegal in 1926, and temples were destroyed or taken by the state to become public libraries. This led to the famous "cristero war". Not surprisingly, all references of the cristero war taught in official history books portrayed the movement as some kind of anarchy - and the people who fought this war in favor of the Church, were portrayed as "savage indians" controlled by the catholic hierarchy. The official books did not mention how many innocent people were slaughtered, and how many priests and religious people were persecuted.
Since then, religion is forbidden to do public acts of worship outside churches (except when permitted explicitly by the State), and priests are forbidden from wearing religious outfits in the street. Even Pope John Paul II could not use his tiara when he visited Mexico for the first time in 1979.
All this changed when president Carlos Salinas (independently from the corruption of his regime followed by an economic crisis) modified the freedom of religion laws.
As you can see, religion is a touchy subject, and so is politics. But it becomes much worse when these two are mixed together. For example, the traditionally opposing party in Mexico (PAN), which was founded by compromised catholics, is labelled as "the right-wing" by the freemasonry-founded party (PRI), and they use that name, "the right-wing" to portray PAN as some kind of religious fundamentalists who are intolerant of anything. Insert rumours of secret catholic societies, murders of famous members of the clergy, and it all becomes more and more blurry.
It may not sound like big news if 41000 people use a web service in some small country somewhere. But it is actually a huge effect. In a country of 5 million, nearly 1% of all people - including kids and pensioners - have resigned from a powerful institution with few clicks in the last couple of years. In US that would correspond to almost 3 million people!
And the Church is terrified. Thay are losing income at an increasing pace. They have already announced a need to shrink the number of priests and church workers in the future.
The Lutheran Church of Finland is still trying to defend it's bastion as a major institution on par with government, army and universities. The lutheran church in Sweden has already been kicked out from government protection and the process is beginning in Norway.
The Chuch is still powerful - almost evil - consider this:
- Most don't even notice that 1.3% of their income is sucked out
- At the age of 14, kids have to go to religious camps where they are forced to attest their faith. When they graduate, they are rewarded with presents and told that "now they are adults". You might have thought state-churches are tame, but this a Brainwashing, and nothing else. Bloody sickening.
- Even today there is just one (or two?) graveyards for non-religious people - and the church loves it's monopoly - if you are as an atheist buried to church graveyard, you'll have to pay hefty extra.
- Religion is thought in school, and the 85% who are members, MUST attend and pass. Otherwise no diplomas are coming your way. Could we possibly use this time better? Maths, languages, anyone?
- Due to all this brainwashing, is it no wonder that many people in Finland are completely unable to critizise or question the church or religion. Even though nobody talks about it, it is somehow accepted as a part of "culture".
In this perspective the phenomenon that is reported here is perhaps THE best internet movement that has ever taken place in Finland. Lot's of money and people are involved, and I hope, some cleansing of thinking as well.
There is no "state church" in Finland per se... The Lutherian church has a right to collect taxes, but it is not a government institution, although they are linked to each other in some respects.
Other religions do not have a right to collect taxes, but I am not 100% sure about the orthodox church.
Because you will have to live, in your old age, in the society that those children create and mold. Because you are part of a larger society, and it is in your best interest that everyone else around you has a good education.
If you own a business, they may be your future employees or partners. If you get sick, they may be your doctors or nurses. Get the picture? You aren't an island. Even childless people depend on an orderly and productive society to live in.
These "other people's children" are people YOU will be somewhat dependent on as you grow older. A handful of them will be your elected representatives, or even the President during your lifetime.
Don't be so short-sighted. My kids getting an education is not just in their (or my) best interest - it is in yours as well.
"I have as much authority as the pope, I just
don't have as many people who believe it" - George Carlin
There is no state church in Finland per se, and citizens are not born into Lutherian church by default. Their parents can also choose otherwise, ie. not to became members of ANY church.
Get out of your paranoia. THere's no attempt to destroy religion out there. There's no Bill O'Reilly War on Christmas either. What there is is an attempt by those of us who have given up on mythology to keep you and your morals out of the laws and government.
You've never been approached by someone trying to get you to go to a church? There's barely a week that goes by I don't have someone on the street try and give me a pamphlet, or preaching on a damn street corner. Whens the last time you saw an atheist doing either of those?
Trying to get people to abandon their religion? Its a fucking WEBSITE. You have to *choose* to go there. You need to type it into your browser yourself- its not like there's some guy on the street following you for half a block trying to give you a pamphlet, or Jehova's Witness style going door to door.
Open your fucking eyes man. Atheists trying to shove their viewpoints on other people? Bullshit.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
"Deconstruction" is almost universally understood to refer to a specific sort of literary analysis.
In the US and France this is true. In other places, however, the more archaic usage is more common. It is often used to refer to "demolition" or "dismantlement," but with an orderly, methodical connotation. Since this article is about Finland, I suspect they probably repeated the usage they heard from sources there.
I suspect a more appropriate word in the title would have used a form of the verb "to erode,"...
I disagree. Erosion implies a natural process, whereas this was a directed use of technology. That seems an inappropriate connotation to me.
Please educate yourselves.
Please get over yourself and realize your interpretation of something is not the only one. Language is fluid and varied. On a forum devoted to technology it is inappropriate and off topic to complain about spelling, grammar, or word usage that does not prevent you from understanding the meaning of the writing. Besides, you wouldn't want anyone to sit here and rip apart your every word and phrase, despite it being immaterial to the topic at hand. I hope the moderators mark you as "offtopic" for you certainly are.
You are thinking of the Spanish Inquisition, the one that infamously tortured people, which was a secular authority and no longer exists. The modern-day still-existing "Inquisition" is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith at the Vatican, which just rules on knotty theological problems, and which is a totally separate institution.
That should have been "and there are 122,721,000 US taxpayers".
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
In Finland actually you have to pay for the state church regardless of if you are a member of the church or not. Here all the companies must pay a tax called 'community tax' (26%) and part of it goes to the state church. So every time you buy something, part of your money goes to the church.
Just in case, here is the original video of this. Nice spoof!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
the Inquisition wasn't just done by secular authority, the Roman Catholic Church played a part in the Inquisition, and Pope John Paul apologized for it twice. Quite a bloody-handed organization, that Roman Catholic Church, killed and tortured more people than Hitler and the Nazis.
Speaking as a Finn - and the headline's ridiculous, by the way, but that's another can of worms - a lot of it goes to keep the services going, the churches in repair, all that jazz, but the church also employs a number of social workers and the Church Foreign Aid is the country's biggest organization of its kind.
But the Spanish Inquisition was not handled by that office of the Roman Catholic Church which still exists today, therefore the OP was erroneous in speaking as if the Spanish Inquisition lives on.
Unlike the Jewish (Christian/Muslim) god, the Greek gods didn't really 'smite' the humans or 'taught them a lesson', at least not as often; they more or less fooled around with them. Zeus for example really looved the women, he used all his magic tricks hunting after hot chicks. - To be fair though, if you read Homer et al you will find there were morals, virtues and values, but it was more of a karma/fate thing, not a 'faith' thing.
Polytheists were also naturally more tolerant towards other beliefs as well, compared to quite an amount of monotheists who even resort to waging wars in the name of religion.
And when you gaze long enough into the code, the code will also gaze into you.
Article 4, Section 1 of the American Convention on Human Rights , signed but not ratified by the U.S., and ratified by most central american countries:
The U.N. Declaration of the Rights of the Child
For crying out loud, abortion is almost entirely illegal in Ireland. But I suppose South American, Central American, and Ireland aren't Western countries?Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
The point is that just because people who (nominally) held religious beliefs committed violence, does not therefore prove that their religious beliefs caused violence. In some cases, no doubt the beliefs led to violence. That is certainly the case in the sorry Kingdom of Muenster incident. But in many cases, the religious beliefs were a convenient cover for a power grab.
Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
The 14th Amendment is what extends the limitations of the federal government to the state and local governments and was passed in the wake of the Civil War to prevent Confederate states from discriminating against the newly freed slaves.
In 1833, it was still generally permissable for state governments to establish state religions, restrict free speech, restrict free press, forbid the bearing of arms, quarter solidiers in homes, etc., etc., though most state constitutions banned some or all of these acts. This just wasn't brought into question again until much later.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Seems a Catholic viewpoint to me... As I recall, the Eastern Orthodox church maintains that they are the original Christian church and the Roman Catholics split off from them.
Regarding Matt. 16:18, ISTR that, in the original language, two different words for "rock" are used: "thou art Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build my Church." The Protestant reading of that verse is that the rock on which the Church would be built was the truth expressed by Peter in the previous verse, which is buried too deeply in my memory for me to retrieve it at this time.
(IANAChristian, neither Catholic nor Protestant nor otherwise, but I was a bit of a Bible-thumper in my youth, even if I have just been an amused bystander for the last decade or two.)
As a Finn, I'd like to share my perspective. I'm 21, so my perspective is modern and not from the possibly more repressive times.
Most are aware of this, but the amount is seen as negligible compared to the "effort" of resigning. Further more, a common viewpoint is that this money goes towards paying your place in the graveyard someday, and supporting church buildings, where many like to get married.
The brainwashing isn't quite working, then. All kids view this as the compulsory part of the one summer, where they endure a week of playing ping pong and singing songs by the campfire to get the presents. All in all, it's much like I imagine the American summer camps for children are, except it's a one week, one time deal. There are lessons about religion, and it's all pretty much memorising prayers and learning how the indexing works in the bible. As religious brainwashing, it's completely teeth-less.
You can choose to either study religion or non-religious view-of-life-stuff (Elämänkatsomustieto), and as far as I know, being a member of the church doesn't forbid you to choose either one. The classes are about aspects of different religions, admittedly weighted on the Lutheran church. This is all useful, general knowledge, since religions are an important thing to know about. The classes don't try to force anyone in to the religion, they are thought as history and geography are. You don't get diplomas if you fail history, either.
The reason no one appears to "critizise or question the church or religion" is not that everyone has been brainwashed, but because religion really isn't such a big deal to vast majority of Finns. We Finns are private people, who like to go about our lives and keep our thoughts to ourselves, not needing organised ceremonies for that. There's nothing really to rebel against - the church has never told me what to do or not do.
Finally, I'd like to note that although I'm against the church tax and don't practice religion at all, I haven't resigned from the church since i) I'm lazy ii) It seems like making a statement, and I like to think through before making statements and iii) I don't want my burial to be a big expense to someone else and like to think that I support the upkeep of beautiful old churches.
Well, no, that was the Greek. The original language was Aramaic, with "kepha" (meaning "rock") in both places. (In other places, the Aramaic "kepha" sometimes peeks through in the Greek version when Simon's nickname is simply transliterated as "Cephas" rather than being translated.)
Why translate "kepha" as both "petros" ("pebble") and "petra" ("rock")? Because it would have sounded really funky to Greek-speakers if Jesus had assigned Simon a female nickname here -- in Greek, "petra" is a feminine noun. The closest male noun was "petros". Unfortunately using "petros" in both places would sap the force of the second part -- "...and upon this pebble I build my church?" Nah. I think it was a reasonable compromise on the part of the translator.
Something else to think about: obviously the rock-rock assocation was important to the sense of the passage, or the translator could have avoided the problem simply by transliterating the nickname, "You are Cephas, and upon this rock (petra) I build my Church."
DNA just wants to be free...