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Undetectable Rootkits Through Virtualization?

techmuse writes "eWeek has an article about a prototype rootkit that is implemented using a virtual machine hypervisor running on top of AMD's Pacifica virtualization implementation. The idea is that the target OS, or software running on it, would not be able to detect the rootkit, because the OS would be running virtualized on top of the rootkit. The prototype is supposed to be demonstrated at the Syscan conference and the Black Hat Briefings over the next month."

50 of 237 comments (clear)

  1. Before people start the Windows flamefest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative


    fta:
    Rutkowska stressed that the Blue Pill technology does not rely on any bug of the underlying operating system. "I have implemented a working prototype for Vista x64, but I see no reasons why it should not be possible to port it to other operating systems, like Linux or BSD which can be run on x64 platform," she added.

    1. Re:Before people start the Windows flamefest by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Rutkowska stressed that the Blue Pill technology does not rely on any bug of the underlying operating system.
      It's doesn't rely on any bug of the guest operating system, and isn't detectable from the guest operating system. But if something is mitigating access between multiple guest operating systems to hardware, then that thing is itself some sort of minimal operating system, and it is there that the problem lies. As far as the guest operating systems are concerned, this is really more like what would previously have been a hardware hack, in fact it's almost like your healthy computer is running behind a compromised firewall that's sending out the spam or whatever.

      Getting to the point, people act as if virtualization simplifies things, But really it's an additional layer of abstraction and complication, another mass of code and/or hardware to go wrong. Now there will have to be software tools to manange this new underlying minimal OS, and maybe virus/rootkit software. I think the applicability will be limited.

    2. Re:Before people start the Windows flamefest by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 2, Informative

      WTF are you on about, this rides BELOW the operating system.

      It has no feasible way of detecting this because the host OS runs exacly as it did before completely oblivious that its not sitting on raw hardware.

      There is no spoon.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    3. Re:Before people start the Windows flamefest by MrLint · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wonder if you would be able to detect these things by, say, keeping log of the relative offset from address 0 of actual physical ram of the box of say, the top of the kernel stack, or start of userland. If this number changes and there was no mitigating software installed, you might be able to suspect you are running in a VM.

    4. Re:Before people start the Windows flamefest by dextromulous · · Score: 2, Informative
      You would have to be rather closed-minded to think a rootkit would apply only to Windows. From wikipedia:
      The term "rootkit" (also written as "root kit") originally referred to a set of recompiled Unix tools such as "ps", "netstat", "w" and "passwd" that would carefully hide any trace of the intruder that those commands would normally display, thus allowing the intruders to maintain "root" on the system without the system administrator even seeing them.

      Generally now the term is not restricted to Unix-based operating systems, as tools that perform a similar set of tasks now exist for non-Unix operating systems such as Microsoft Windows (even though such operating systems may not have a "root" account).
      --
      There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.
    5. Re:Before people start the Windows flamefest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I haven't read about it in detail yet, but from what I've gathered the virtualized OS does not have permission to call the virtualization operations. Thus you should be able to detect if the OS is virtualized by trying to call one of those functions.

      There might also be some flags you can read, dunno.


      There are a handful of processor instructions which behave differently under virtualization without causing a privilege fault. Not causing a privilege fault is crucial, because that would allow a malicious hypervisor to "step in" and hide itself. Even if the malicious hypervisor patches the host OS kernel and standard apps so that the OS cannot itself detect virtualization, it should be possible to load a "detector" application which uses these instructions to detect the problem. Of course, an effective implementation of such a "detector" utility would depend on the sophistication of the malicious hypervisor's countermeasures. The basic idea is presented in a paper from Rutkowska herself, aptly named "Red Pill".

      - T

  2. said this before by dknj · · Score: 4, Interesting
  3. ok, but... by celardore · · Score: 3, Funny

    Who runs anything *real* on a virtual server?

    1. Re:ok, but... by Scooter · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sadly, and in a large part due to the way commercial IT is funded, this can actually look good on paper - to the technology accountant: "as many servers as we like, that can be created and destroyed at will? Yes please". We also need virtual finance teams, virtual staff, virtual customers - hell don't bother running a real business at all - just model the entire thing, and play it like a RTS sim - with your score linked directly to the corporate stock price!

      Technology finance will cretae some bizarre technical solutions, if sombody in the organisation doesn't put the brakes on - another good example is "hmm terminal server runs all the same apps that native desltops do for the remote workers - let's just issue everyone a Windows TS "device" and host everyone's sessions inside a big servers in the data centre - it's cheaper, and there's no difference right? This is where someone gets to try and explain latency, and how it's different from "bandwidth", to an accountant :D "yeah but we just paid for a 1 Ooodlegig/s line - it'll be super quick!"

      It's not new either - mainframes have operated like this for years. IBM would have you create your entire data centre inside z/VM - including the routers, switches and firewalls. It's great for development and testing - need more Linux/Apache/WAS/Oracle servers? sure just wish 3 more into existence, re-test your fancy shmancy clustering and treacle bending widget, and then bin them off again with another wave of the virtual wand.

      We have clusters of Websphere AS inside one LPAR - not for speed I hasten to add - that would be silly, but to create resilience, seperate the Java VMs and add flexibitlty for software releases.

    2. Re:ok, but... by Phleg · · Score: 2, Funny

      --> The Joke <--


      --> Your Head <--

      --
      No comment.
  4. the side effects are detactable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Current virtualization doesn't virtualize anything but basic VGA graphics. That's certainly noticable.

    Boss asks: are you playing games at work?!

    Me: Just checking for rootkits boss!

  5. Motherboards already block this... by Manip · · Score: 4, Informative

    Some, albeit high end, motherboards support a visual warning message that alerts the user to a program, or the OS trying to modify the boot sector on the hard disk. If you had this enabled it would stop this rootkit dead in its tracks. It's just a shame that more bioses / motherboards don't offer this support by default.

    If you have this on your motherboard I highly recommend you turn it on, it isn't too often that you reinstall the OS and pressing F9 isn't that much of an inconvenience even if you did it once a day.

    PS - All of the "My favorite OS is secure" posts below this are wrong if the Operating System supports some type of driver, or root program (running in the kernels memory space).

    1. Re:Motherboards already block this... by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hmm.. I have quite a pile of system boards here, dating from old 486 systems upto p4 and athlon xp, with ami, award, phoenix and biosses, and all of them have the boot sector virus protection option (tho sometimes just called virus protection).

      This offers at best a partial protection. While the MBR is important, the actual boot is done from the partition boot record, mot the master boot record, and this badly named feature is not going to help against that. Why badly named? because it does monitor (attempted) changes to the bootrecord and doesn't know anything about viruses.

      Next. even if you could protect against that, things just get a bit more OS and possibly OS version dependent because you have to move to the file that gets loaded by the partition bootrecord.

      Oh, quite a few 'boot managers' change the mbr on every boot.

      So while it offers some protection, that protection is extremely limited, and can be quite inconvenient.

    2. Re:Motherboards already block this... by enosys · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I thought this only trapped writes which were done through the BIOS. Modern operating systems deal with the hardware directly. That is much harder to trap.

    3. Re:Motherboards already block this... by utlemming · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well yes and no.

      There was a proof of concept virus that has the ability to use the ACPI interface to take over the BIOS.

      If you could that virus with the root kit that uses virtualization, the computer is now completely hosed. The only way to fix it is to flash the BIOS, and if it first takes over the BIOS and prevents the warning dialogs then virtualizes the OS, you now have an incrediably powerful malware that can only be stopped when it is run on the computer. If you don't detect the malware out the gate, then you may or may never know that you have a problem.

      The problem that computer security is having is that the people that can develop this stuff are not stupid. And it is rather hard to forecast what is going to happen with out knowing what the malware people are planning on.

      Essentially this problem is going to result in the implementation of signed code for anything that runs outside of a very limited sandbox. Frankly, I think that we are going to see an era of virtualized everything -- where the hardware runs a hypervisor, with a master kernel, and everything else runs in the context of a virtual machine that groups simular resources. Unsigned code would then be run inside of its own virtual machine using a microkernel that links to the master kernel. Or something like that.

      --
      The views expressed are mine own and do not express the views of my employer.
  6. This just reinforces the good old principle by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If your system suffered a successful intrusion, you wipe.

    Of course, there were LKM rootkits (pretty hard to detect) for a good while now, this is just taking it to an all new level.

    I wish the spread of better hidden rootkits on Windows, because only that will further sane security policies and wipe the stupid idea of virus scanners out (when it's doing IDS not IPS). There ain't such thing as 'intrusion removal'. It's like putting on a condom after sex. Oh wait, it's slashdot. Let me rephrase. It is like trying to recover data from /dev/null.

    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
    1. Re:This just reinforces the good old principle by DrSkwid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wiping isn't necessarily going to help. The BIOS could have been compromised and the virtualization taking place there.

      Many a BIOS already contains a pile of crap :

      ACPI
      USB
      IPMI 2.0
      SATA
      Infiniband

      On the GX2, the BIOS is a message-passing microkernel that lives in SMI !

      Wonder how your USB keyboard can be used before the OS is loaded :

      > The implementation is chipset dependent. Often what happens is
      > that the chipset recognizes an I/O request to port 0x60 or 0x64 and
      > aborts the request with an SMI (system management interrupt). This
      > is a *very* non-maskable interrupt (more non-maskable than NMI...)
      > that causes the processor to save pretty much all its register state
      > in a special memory area, and jump to a handler in the system BIOS.
      > The BIOS SMI handler examines the saved register state, figures out
      > what the OS was trying to do, runs a software model of the PS/2
      > keyboard controller's state, chats with the USB keyboard, formulates
      > an appropriate response, emulates the I/O instruction the OS was
      > trying to do, and resumes execution of the OS at the instruction
      > following the I/O instruction.
      >
      > Some chipsets might do it directly in hardware rather than using
      > the SMI+BIOS strategy.

      http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.plan9/brows e_thread/thread/4c154a61f5bf15fa/5b9040b5d3e3fcfe? lnk=st&q=group%3Acomp.os.plan9+SMI%2BBIOS&rnum=1#5 b9040b5d3e3fcfe

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
  7. A win-win situation for everyone by KingSkippus · · Score: 3, Funny

    From TFA:

    Rutkowska says of the Blue Pill concept, "I am very excited about the chance to work with Sony on how this technology can be used to protect their next generation of music CDs, DVDs, and high-definition Bluray discs. I believe it will be a win-win situation for everyone involved. Well, everyone important, anyway."
  8. Not much less detectable by mrcaseyj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think this changes the situation much. Viruses have always tried to hide. This just requires different methods to detect them. Ultimately some viruses can only be reliably detected by booting off of readonly media. The same now as before. I think OS providers should provide a boot disk for routine scanning as a matter of standard procedure.

  9. Maybe it's time for some new paradigm by supradave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps there could be an OS that wouldn't allow malware to be injected through root-trust, signed applications, memory compartmentalization with read, write, execute permissions and 4 privilege levels (instead of 2). Of course, that wouldn't be Windows or Linux or BSD or any other generic OS.

  10. Real Beneficiaries of Hardware Virtualization... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So, just as you would expect, the future of having CPUs with hardware support for virtualization will be wonderful for preserving absolutely perfect security and cloaking for rootkits and their owners. In fact, thinking of why a certain class of non-blackhat beneficiaries would very much like such a possibility, this could be why both Intel and AMD are planning to ensure that all future CPUs, including even those in ordinary non-server desktop PCs, will have compulsory (permanently enabled) hardware support for virtualization. You know the routine - think of the children etc etc.

  11. Is this a "root kit"? by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Technically it's not rooting an OS but actually is almost it's own OS (hypervisor actually) that is running the OS in a virtual machine. Couldn't you get the same effect by hacking BIOS?

    --
    --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
  12. While the subject is scary by Goblez · · Score: 2

    Is this really a surprise? Given the layered design of software, if you have something that can sit between the hardware and the software (and monitor what passes between, and control said information), they why would it not have complete control? The question is how could this easily be placed on someone's machine? The next question is why can a level of virtualization be introduced between the operating system and the hardware during execution?

    "your operating system swallows the Blue Pill and it awakes inside the Matrix controlled by the ultra thin Blue Pill hypervisor. This all happens on-the-fly (i.e. without restarting the system)"

    --
    - Kal`Goblez
  13. Let's make this a bit easier to understand. by khasim · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but ...

    This is not really different from running WinXP, then installing VMWare Workstation, then installing Win2K in a virtual machine.

    The "host" OS is what gets infected. That would be WinXP. Of course nothing running in the "guest OS (Win2K) would be able to detect it. But ... so what? And that would directly contradict their claim:
    Rutkowska stressed that the Blue Pill technology does not rely on any bug of the underlying operating system.
    There are only three (3) ways for the "underlying operating system" to be infected.

    #1. Worm
    #2. Virus
    #3. Trojan

    If we aren't talking "nude pictures of celebrities", then it's either a worm or a virus and both of those are bugs in the OS.

    If it's a trojan, then WTF are you doing installing unknown apps on the host OS?

    Now, the only way this would be interesting would be if the worm / virus / trojan installed the virtualization software, moved the existing OS to a virtual machine and faked the names of all the interfaces (NIC, IDE controller, etc). If you can do that, VMWare really wants to talk to you.
    1. Re:Let's make this a bit easier to understand. by kesuki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but ...

      There are only three (3) ways for the "underlying operating system" to be infected.

      There are only two ways, and you got them all wrong.

      1. User/administration Error.

      2. Programmer/Developer error.

      any remote vulnerabilities fall under 2, and any configuration errors fall under 1. :) you shouldn't have said 'I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong' unless you wanted to be corrected.

    2. Re:Let's make this a bit easier to understand. by tool462 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Now, the only way this would be interesting would be if the worm / virus / trojan installed the virtualization software, moved the existing OS to a virtual machine
      That's exactly what it does, according to this paper that somebody else posted in the comments. I don't know that it fakes all the hardware names and such (unlikely), but I doubt that the typical user would recognize that the hardware in their control panel was any different than before.
  14. Towards a runtime for Voight-Kampff machines by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Is this testing whether I'm a virtual machine or a lesbian, Mr. Dowd?"

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  15. Virtualisation used for rootkit-safe environments by grumbel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can't the same trick be used to make a rootkit-safe environment? Launch a watchdog application and let that watchdog application launch the real OS in a virtualized environment, as soon as a rootkit wants to fiddle the watchdog application takes notice and there would be no way for the rootkit to either detect or by pass the watchdog. Or even more drastic, launch each (or most) process in a virtualized environment, would probally be a little slow, but should provide a extremly secure OS.

  16. Whoa. Déjà vu. by DysenteryInTheRanks · · Score: 4, Funny

    "A Slashdot article just went by, and then another one that looks just like it!"

    "It's a glitch in the rootkit! It happens when it changes something!"

    "No, I said a SLASHDOT article."

    "Ah, you're probably fine then."

  17. Re:Is the solution DRM? by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, the solution is to not give the malware the path to even be able to do this by using a capability-type system.

    --
    Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  18. So let me get this straight... by C3ntaur · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A virtual machine can't tell anything about the state of the host it runs on other than what's exposed to it? Isn't this kinda like saying that if you use an oscilloscope to monitor bit flips on the bus, the OS can't detect it? How is this news?

    --
    Loading...
  19. Bah, humbug! by davecb · · Score: 3, Informative

    Exactly the same thing was done using the ancient "cookie monster" program on Multics, long before Unix was even a gleam in T&R's eye.

    The perpetrator created a user-ring instance of a user (a virtual-machine-like process), loaded in the cookie mosnter, then loaded the command interpreter and handed the result to an unsuspecting user, my boss.

    He searchrd high and low, never suspecting the program that kept saying "Want cookie!" was down below the shell.

    --dave

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
    1. Re:Bah, humbug! by surprise_audit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I heard about the Cookie Monster program from a Honywell/Multics engineer while he was installing our system. He said that in one case, someone had managed to get it to run on the system console, which in those days was a paper printer/keyboard, not video. Every so often it would print out "I wanna a cookie!". The operators would just laugh and type in "cookie" to make it stop. But *this* particular implementation shortened the time delay every time it demanded a cookie, and before long it was demanding cookies faster than the operators could type... I think the fix was to deliberately crash the system, then bring it up in the bootloader to clean out the cookie program.

  20. DRM? by sr180 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Can we use this to bypass the DRM included in Vista?

    --
    In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
  21. Nothing new, really. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The fundamental question of systems administration: once you have had a root compromise, what can you do to the machine to get it back up and running, in a known good configuration, with all chances of future compromise as a result of the initial compromise removed?

    Answer: either compare the system (booted from known good media) to a known good set of files, or reinstall from known good media.

    There's no other answer. Any tools you run on the compromised system are by definition suspect; they might be good, or they might be compromised. You have no way of knowing; anything they tell you is suspect. Even if you have tool binaries that you know are good, you don't know that the data they're gathering reflects reality or has been altered to give you a wrong impression.

    So the fact that this software is undetectable doesn't really change anything; you're still finding out about the compromise through unusual activity, so that's 'status quo'. The only thing that's different is the layer that's compromised.

    The interesting question is how the software gets in place in the first instance to compromise the system. The answer is that it was run as root (or administrator, or supervisor, or whatever the super-user is called). How did it get root privileges? Two possible answers: (1) a flaw in the OS (defined as the kernel, and any processes running with root privileges); or (2) the end user ran it somehow as root.

    In the first case, it's the standard security problem. The OS is flawed; anything can get root. That's a bug. In the second case, it's end user stupidity. Nothing you run as an end user should require root privileges. (If the OS is designed in such a way that you do, again, that's a flaw in the OS. If the application expects it when it doesn't really need it, that's a bug in the application, and the vendor should be shot.)

    So there's another layer the rootkit can hide in. Be still, my beating heart! This is, and remains, nothing fundamentally new.

  22. What's that you say? by kimvette · · Score: 2, Funny

    The next version of WGA will be undetectable? Thanks, Microsoft! ;)

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
  23. Re:Virtualisation used for rootkit-safe environmen by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There were some motherboard BIOSes that had built in boot sector virus scanning, but they didn't know anything about Free operating systems. A BIOS watchdog wouldn't be any better, most likely. The other problem with virtualization is that it does cause a slight overhead for any protected mode instructions that need to be virtualized. It doesn't help that the x386 architecture has several unprivileged instructions that can easily tell an OS whether it's being emulated or not (see this paper). Timing privileged instructions will also allow a hosted operating system to detect virtualization unless the entire system is emulated, which is very slow.

  24. Re:Everyone but you... by Distinguished+Hero · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't think they realised the 'small details' they would be impacting. For instance, before the 'upgrade' if the network went down, we could write some letters, work on some spreadsheets etc... Now with the new 'upgrade', if the network goes down, we can't do anything. Not even write a letter, send an email, none of that stuff....

    Yes, gone are the wonderful days of yore when one used to be able to pass the time while the network was down by "sending an email." :P

    --
    Uttering logically derived and empirically supported truths to the disciples of the orthodox establishment.
  25. Re:The only defense by jthill · · Score: 4, Funny

    You just think you're booting off that DVD.

    --
    As always, all IMO. Insert "I think" everywhere grammatically possible.
  26. Think about what it means if they're right. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think they're right. Look at page 3 where they have their diagram showing the VMM in direct contact with the hardware.

    Here's a simple test to see if they're right.

    Put in a NIC that your host OS does not have drivers for. Your host OS will not be able to connect to the network. Now, if the virtual machine in their example can access the network, then they're correct.

    There's no end of hype for "threats" that never seem to materialize (or are vastly over-stated). If they can do what their diagrams indicate, then this would revolutionize the computer industry. I really mean that.

    For example, you would NEVER again have any problem with wireless networking under Linux. Or sound. Or any peripheral. Or hardware accelerated video. No more nVidia drivers needed! The VMM handles it for you!

    So, no, I don't believe that what they claim is actually what they can deliver.

    1. Re:Think about what it means if they're right. by tool462 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are correct that the host OS would have to have drivers for the hardware on the machine in order to even have a prayer of success, but this problem is vastly easier for malware than for commercial software. For malware, they only need to be successfully installed on a small percentage of the machines they attempt to compromise, and they only need to be good enough to avoid detection by lazy users. They won't be able to virtualize hardware accelerated video, I'm sure, but how does that affect a user who is just using a non-accelerated onboard video card? All the VMM needs is a decent enough driver to support the resolution/color depth of the original machine and the user will likely never notice. A commercial product couldn't get by with only supporting 30/40/50% of the hardware out there.

      I also agree that this threat is overstated. Most users would at least notice that something wasn't right with their machine and dig deeper. I know for sure that I would notice if my Linksys wifi card suddenly became a RealTek Ethernet card ;) The people that would never notice this issue would probably be just as easily duped by a standard trojan. The only real significance is that this is harder to catch with AV software and harder to remove if found.

    2. Re:Think about what it means if they're right. by HeX314 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I didn't RTFA, I would like to inject my two cents:

      Intel's latest VT technology in Intel Macs assists in running an OS in a virtual space and allows that OS to directly (or transparently) access the hardware. AMD is working on a very similar technology that would allow the exact same hardware-accelerated VM. From Intel's Press Release: "Provides headroom for more robust hardware-assisted virtualization solutions." (source)

      The summary's mention of "AMD's Pacifica virtualization implementation" seems to suggest that this proof-of-concept "virus/worm/whatever" is very similar to a virtual machine but with the major exception that it utilizes a technology in hardware that is not widely adopted -- yet. Being that the software itself does not have to virtualize the environment and instead taps hardware means that it could potentially be very small compared with a 100+MB download of VMware, and its size and ease-of-distribution (potentially within a worm/virus/trojan/rootkit/etc. could make it a huge, undetectable threat; however, if the user beats the virus to the lowest-level VM (i.e. direct access to hardware), it would be impossible for an infection to be completely undetectable.

  27. Ob. Tron by pcgabe · · Score: 2
    Launch a watchdog application and let that watchdog application launch the real OS in a virtualized environment [...]
    ALAN
    It's called Tron. It's a security program itself, actually. Monitors all the contacts between our system and other systems... If it finds anything going on that's not scheduled, it shuts it down. I sent you a memo on it.

    DILLINGER
    Mmm. Part of the Master Control Program?

    ALAN
    No, it'll run independently. It can watchdog the MCP as well.
    --
    Don't put advice in your sig.
  28. As I understand, a likely initial vector is... by CFD339 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...the virtual hardware drivers. The driver software which is part of the vm management software is by definition standardized and thus a prime target for attack. It also operates below most antivirus software so if an exploit can be found in the virtual hardware, it concievable could leap from the virtual machine into the host operating system. At least that's the way I understand the process.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  29. MOD PARENT UP, he's right. by 3l1za · · Score: 3, Interesting
    ...and he provides a critical rejoinder to grandparent who misunderstood what BluePill does (or rather what it claims it does).

    Grandparent seems to think that BluePill merely is a mal-VMM that sits between any guest OS and the host OS. So the guest OS won't know that he's being thwarted. What these folks are claiming is two-fold:
    • They'll do what SubVirt did -- move the VMM which is usually operating as a process on a host OS below that host OS. So, not only are all the guest OSs not going to know a/b the the mal-VMM, but also the host OS itself effectively becomes another guest OS.
    • Unlike SubVirt which required that the mal-VMM exploit a vulnerability in the *host OS* in order to do this swallowing-up of the host OS, these folks' claim is that there are generic mechanisms to inject code into the Vista kernel. And these generic mechanisms are sufficient for this subversion.
    • Moreover, they're saying that this is the case, despite security mechanisms in Vista that prevent kernel-mode code from running if that code is not signed (by a trusted party).
    Anyway these are some pretty tall claims (particularly, re: the ability to inject arbitrary code into the Vista kernel). I initially thought the same thing as the grandparent: that they were saying that you could create a mal-VMM so that any VM running on that mal-VMM would not be able to detect the badness of the VMM (which is pretty trivial, actually).
  30. Re:The only defense by Charan · · Score: 2, Informative

    All those utilities people pay so much for are worthless! They only detect the known malware, but nobody knows about the undetected hacks.

    One area of active reasearch in intrusion detection looks at detecting malware by examining the behavior of applications. The behavior patterns (network connections, system calls, file accesses, etc.) of a program can be compared against a list of known-bad actions. If a program acts like malware, it's malware, regardless of how what vulnerability (known or unknown) compromised it.

    Also, it is possible for some programs to detect when a specific vulnerability is triggered and take preventative action. This will stop previously-unseen exploits from using an established vulnerability to compromise a system. Still, the vulnerability must be discovered first for this to work.

    An technique called anomaly detection seeks to get around this limitation by building a profile of "normal" behavior for a program and flagging any deviant behavior. This still can't catch all malware, since the malware could have the infected application act within its normal boundaries, but it does severely limit what malware can do with a hijacked process. Hopefully, the malware is limited enough that it can't really harm the system.

  31. Another Problem Reaction Solution (PRS) triple: by gd23ka · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Problem: Virus / Rootkits are now so good there's no way we can detect them anymore! Reaction: Somebody has to do something about this! We need to be able to make sure something like that doesn't get installed. Solution: Trusted Computing / "Palladium" / "Fritz Chip" -- what they wanted all along. It would surprise me not one bit if the hypervisor root kit was built for people who had exactly this kind of discussion in mind.

  32. Pacifica doesn't emulate hardware by Nurgled · · Score: 2, Informative

    The goal of the Pacifica technology is to do the virtualization in the hardware to avoid the need to emulate devices. Microsoft's Virtual PC product is forced to emulate a particular network card (an old Intel 10mbit card, if memory serves) and then translate usage of that network card to calls to the NT device drivers for the real network card. Under Pacifica, the virtualized system talks directly to the real network card and the hypervisor software (which runs beneath the OS kernel) co-ordinates the different OS kernels in a similar sense to how the NT kernel co-ordinates multiple applications talking to the network card.

    Since the hypervisor software is essentially "an OS to run OSes on top of", if you can find a way get some software running in there you can do whatever you want with the "real" OS completely oblivious.

  33. Shhhhhhhhh....... by DiscoDave_25 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Please don't let Sony hear...

  34. Actually quite detectable by Anthony+Liguori · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A key point about virtualization (even hardware virtualization) that people miss is that it does not guarentee that programs run as they normally if those programs are timing sensitive. This isn't a new revelation. If you go back to the Popek/Goldberg paper from the 70s, they make it quite clear.

    So how do you exploit this to detect that you're in a VM? If you're an operating system, the easiest approach is to disable interrupts periodically and wait out a few time slices. You would then compare wallclock time and see if you're wait took longer than you expected it should. If it did, you're being pre-empted. With interrupts off, that's a sure sign that you're in a VM.

    The above is a general solution to the problem. It's funny the author used SVM (a.k.a. Pacifica). SVM has a feature called dynamic attestation. This essentially introduces an unemulatable instruction that one can use precisely for the purpose of determining whether you're in a VM or not.