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Microsoft Denies the Windows Kill Switch
WindozeSux writes "Microsoft has denied that WGA will kill pirated copies of Windows. According to Waggener Edstrom,"Microsoft anti-piracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer." Microsoft also says that WGA is a necessary part of its campaign to catch those illegally using Windows XP which leads one to think what WGA really does then."
If WGA phones home more than once, it is proabably up to no good. If it discovers that your copy of Windows is legal, why on earth would it need to contact MS more than once?
It may well be checking for pirated movies, songs, etc and MS may be in cahoots with RIAA/MPAA/BOHICA.
Did anyone honestly believe the random blogger who said that some random Microsoft guy said that "if you don't install WGA we'll use WGA (which isn't installed) to kill your copy of Windows"!? However, it made for some great sensational headlines.
It seems like a lot of people who have pirated Windows XP just go ahead and use Windows XP Corporate (which doesn't require activation or a license key). How does MS detect a legit copy of XP Corporate vs. someone who is using a pirated copy of it?
I know of 2 major corperations that do not allow WGA to be installed on their machines because of sarbanes Oxley rules they have as well as not installing apps that report back information outside the company.
So microsoft will not risk pissing off an entire corperation sized customer by turning anything off.
Personally I wish they did such a boneheaded move. No matter what the naysayers believe it would force a switch to something else and braindead easy installs like Ubuntu and Mandriva will capture a larger amount of pc's.
The bulk of PC owners out there do not care about playing games except at places like pop-cap and other web based time wasters, they dont go shopping for software on a regular basis. They want their pc to do simple web stuff.
I have converted a large number of people over to ubuntu on their pc after scaring theim with the latest MS fud about not having WGA on there to spy on you they will get viruses and trojans ant other things instantly. So they begrudingly try ubuntu and then 2-3 months later ask me to erase their windows partition for more disk space.
Are they pissed they cant play Quake4 or the sims2 latest expansion pack? nope most people dont have a PC capable of playing them nor plan on buying one.
The low end computing power web/wordprocessing only people outnumber game buyers almost 30 to 1. And those that buy software at best buy and the likes only do so after they find out they cant do it at home already. Ubuntu gives them a button to get free software instantly and without effort so they save more money and I dont have to go support their pc on a weekly basis like I did with windowsXP.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I think there is a kill switch in there. We bought an HP machine with XP Home on it for the office. When we had to reinstall the machine (dumb user picked up a trojan), we bought a legit copy of XP Home and installed it using the product key that the HP machine came with rather than mess around with installing the HP system restore with all the crap it comes with.
After a few weeks with auto updates on, the machine stopped working, claiming that it did not have a valid license. We did have a valid license (two, in fact), just not the right keys for the right version I guess.
So rather than feed the MS beast again, we've begin switching to Macs and Ubuntu desktops. That was the last straw for us.
"No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer," said a spokeswoman with Waggener Edstrom, Microsoft's public relations firm. That statement is barely true; Windows shuts off your computer. For example, when you click |Start| -> |Turn Off Computer|. Also, has anyone ever seen what happens when you don't activate your copy of XP? It will only boot to a safe-mode command prompt, at which point you are supposed to call MS to activate over the phone. They will tell you how to run msoobe.exe so you can enter the lllllllloooooonnnnnnnnngggggggg code that they will dictate to you over the phone. If that doesn't work, they tell you to go out and buy Windows XP. What's to stop WGA from doing the same thing? Technically, your computer would be on and running, but you won't be able to use it for anything. I guess MS is telling us the truth, after all!!
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. It only affects the people around you. Same thing when you're stupid.
The only quote in that story is that "No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer". That's not the same thing as saying "No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not stop Windows from operating."
My computer can still be on, but XP refuses to boot.
I believe up until at least Me version and possibly Windows 2000 owners were allowed to install the OS on 2 computers in the family home and carry the OS over to a new mobo when owners updated their hardware. Fast forward to today.
Now, if Windows owners update their mobo's they must purchase a new OS and Home versions of Windows can only be installed on one mobo.
While MS pc Windows is still highly profitable it's no longer expanding in leaps and bounds. It may be that any forseeable increase in profits MS can see for Windows is in squeezing owners of pirated editions.
Personally as I've posted before I'm in countdown mode on Win Xp in a switch over to all Linux/BSD machines. By way of my parents buying my first pcs and my own purchases, as an individual, I've invested in MS DOS, Windows/NT and Office pro for 23 years. No more. I can motivate many people in my sphere of influence to switch to FOSS, but I can't do it if I'm still buying Windows for multimedia/games/web purposes.
If MS can access my computer on a daily basis under the guise of looking for it's stolen property than it's not out of the question that they can accesss my computer for the government. If you have Windows installed on an internet connected pc then you should have zero tolerance for having sensitive information on that pc.
New technology is often met by the buying public in a herd mentality. The model T dominated sales up to nearly 50% of all autos until near existing market saturation then, with the technology having proved itself, many variations in style and manufacture began to appear. Windows is the model T of operating systems, but the early market saturation period has passed.
If I'm right the biggest immediate threat to MS is Apple. I see Apple taking 4-8% of Windows share over the next 3-5 years.
On the desktop Open Source can take considerable market share by way of a multitude of inroads but there are many barriers to overcome.
As for me, as I finish building my new boxes Windows will be phased out. MS has so deeply alienated me that I'll willingly put in time to help fill in the gaps in productivity my switch over will incurr.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
I had a similar problem, but with a completely different outcome.
I have a laptop and a desktop. I had WIN2K running on both. Dell was sending me an XP upgrade for my laptop. I got tired of waiting, so I went to the store and bought XP and upgraded my laptop. I figured I could use the laptop upgrade when it arrives for my desktop. When the xp laptop upgrade arrive, I tried to install it on my desktop. The license keys would not work on my desktop. I had two valid licenses, but they were installed on the wrong systems.
I called microsoft's 800 number (from the activation screen) and explained the situation. I wanted to switch my license keys. I did not want to reinstall since I had already loaded many applications and did not want to go through that process again. The microsoft rep said they could not switch the keys, but they would just give me another key for my desktop that would work.
I was shocked! I said, "that means I will have 3 valid xp licenses." I said I could wipe my systems clean and install them the right way and then I'd have a valid key leftover that I could give away. The support rep said they hoped I would not do that, but it was possible.
So even though I know it is cool to bash microsoft, this is a case where they went out of their way to help me. I called them for help and 10 minutes later I had my situation fixed. No need to reinstall Windows or switch os's all together.
Except... "WGA will kill" is speculation which originated from advice given by a low-level tech in the company. The journalist followed up with requests for clarification from Microsoft, and that company and its pr firm would neither confirm nor deny at the time. The most recent chapter in the saga is that an official statement, quoted in the above abstract, perhaps clarifies Microsoft's intentions. Nonetheless, Microsoft's agent has gone on to say that they they will not entertain any requests for interviews on the subject. I quote:
Source: Ed Bott's ColumnPerhaps these statements are a consequence of the way WGA was rolled out, and the way, allegedly, some people have had WGA nags when they have legitimate licenses. My guess is that the Microsoft lawyers were smelling lawsuits (there's one already) and that's what put the company into clam mode.
So, be rational.
What is the purpose of WGA? Windows Genuine Advantage.
It's purpose is to enforce Microsoft's Intellectual Property Rights. And what right is that? There are really only two -- the right to be paid for Windows, and the right to not have to support Windows that has not been paid for. (and, Customer Education).
The only way to enforce being paid for Windows via WGA is to turn off Windows that haven't been paid for.
The only way to enforce the support right, is to not allow support if WGA is not present, or finds that Windows has not been paid for.
WGA won't work on non-Microsoft platforms. (Microsoft will support Windows 98 and ME without validation, &etc. but has stated that NON-MICROSOFT platforms are not supported by WGA).
Not running WGA locks the user out of the Microsoft Download Center.
Which leads to the "Advantage" part: If you are running Microsoft products on a Microsoft platform, you have the advantage of being able to given access to the Microsoft Download Center for support.
That, of course, can't be true, because it is a violation of US monoply laws (it locks the use of MS Office to the use of Windows). Since it is ridiculous to presume that a company would so blatantly ignore laws, this cannot be the case.
So, either WGA is not needed to get download support for Microsoft Office, OR WGA disables Windows. One is illegal; and the other is silly.
Since I run Microsoft Office under Wine, I wonder if I can request any support via sending of the updates by a different channel (and I will not "crack", "reverse", etc. WGA). Has anyone tried this? Because if that is the case, there is another alternative:
WGA is a tool that simply boosts consumer awareness of bootleg Windows. And that I am completely supportive of.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
Because you can't rely on any method of detecting piracy not to create false positives. And the rate of false positives doesn't have to be very high before it costs you more than the piracy itself.
This happened to me once. We had software which is deployed on a PDA and communicates to a central server. A product manager wanted to have the server count seats to make sure the users didn't cheat on their licenses. I didn't think it was a great idea, but so be it. Subsequently, our number one support issue was this cheating detection scheme: cases where broken PDAs where replaced, or PDA batteries ran out and they hard reset and people had lost their license files. Yet, I doubt given our customer base that there has ever been an intentional case of software piracy. After the manager left, I changed the system so that if it detected what looks like a license violation, it still functions, but gives a warning with instructions for correcting false positive license problems. This turned an urgent support problem that required phone support to a low priority one that can be handled by email most times.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I have converted a large number of people over to ubuntu on their pc after scaring theim with the latest MS fud about not having WGA on there to spy on you they will get viruses and trojans ant other things instantly.
I have been having some success convincing people to move away from Microsoft's buggy bloatware by oh-so-casually mentioning how MS installs spyware (WGA) on their computers. I got the idea when I was showing a friend how to do an MS Update (he'd never even installed SP2, yet thought his system was reasonably current). He observed how my security software prompted me for permission before it allowed Update to actually do certain things. He asked why I did not DL and install WGA. I told him that Microsoft had no right to snoop around my system and that I didn't trust MS's spyware not to send personal information from my system back to MS. I mentioned that I was getting up to speed on Linux with the intent of *never* installing Vista on any of my systems. (I, too, am finding Ubuntu to be fairly straightforward.)
The industry (of which Microsoft is a vey large part) has "the masses" terrified of malware already and since WGA is best described as Windows Genuine Disadvantage in that it does not benefit the user in any way whatsoever, I am learning to drop just the right hints and let FUD work against Microsoft for a change. Mentioning how Microsoft tries to "sneak" WGA onto the systems of unsuspecting users and how it phones how without their informed consent just confuses (and thereby scares) them more. I point out that reputable companies with solid products don't try to infect their customers' machines with spyware.
What makes this so amusing to me is that I don't even consider myself a Linux geek...yet.
"You're young, you're drunk, you're in bed, you have knives; shit happens." -- Angelina Jolie
someone will find a new crack. I agree that only very few will switch to a different OS (ever notice how the same people who will scream at the first slight on unix or mac will take ten times more shit from windows?) but I bet that if this were to happen we would see "some hacker cracked winxp in X hours after new antipirate protection" over the internet.
Now can someone enlighten me on something? I'm really not all that worried about wga but I do have two cracked XPs, one qemu image and one native isntall. I always thought that wga was the windows registery thing you get at a fresh install, the very thing that I did NOT get in the cracked version I have. So was I wrong and is WGA something else or what? And how do I avoid it? Just not update windows or what? Thanks in advance.
Tell that to David Coursey.
"SO, HERE I AM, sitting in a jet at 34,000 feet someplace above God-only-knows-where, using my computer and minding my own business when Microsoft threatens to essentially shut down my copy of Office. And at the very start of a week-long business trip, too."
And this coming from one of the biggest Microsoft schill sites on the planet.
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
I do it on one box once or twice a day and give the help desk hell for infringing on my right to take all the time and trouble I need to decide which harddrive I would rather use
(I rotate between 4 or 5 different ones). One of these days, if enough people make it a regular habit, Microshaft will abandon this narrow-minded, ill-concieved, parochial quest to villainize everybody.
____________________
Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated out of nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing -- with "obscenity" and "indecent exposure" fighting it out for second and third place.
First of all, it is going on everyone's computer, not just the pirated copies. It isn't just checking once, as it should. It is checking all the time.
This is the equivalent of calling you a thief every time it checks. Listen, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that when they check you today and you are legit and then they continue to check you repeatedly, they are accusing you of being a thief.
One time. The WGA notification is not a program I will allow on my computer. I purchased my 20+ licenses. I don't expect Microsoft to make me feel, as a small business owner, as if I am a thief.
I don't care about protecting Microsoft. I could care less about them and their profit. They pocket so much of that profit anyway instead of putting it back into development.
Microsoft's Vista is nothing more than XP with a new interface paradigm. Other than that new look they have cut all the meat out of the new features so as to make it a "no go" on the upgrade path. Everyone needs to understand that. Clearly VISTA is XP with a new desktop look. That's it. It isn't worth 200-400 dollars to upgrade.
So, if they make $3 billion in profit quarterly, wheres their loss at? Where's the loss of revenue to those pirates and why should I care less about Microsoft's bottom line.
Stop calling everyone a thief Microsoft.
Microsoft is playing a game with everyone. Over the past year they have been testing, probing, feeling to see how much violation of privacy we will take. Then they devise not just WGA but WGN. The WGN was tested in other countries first because they didn't want the outcry to be too loud from the US too quickly or it would turn the rest of the world off. So they slid their WGN into the EU and Asia in an effort to ensure it got done. Then they released it in the US under the guise that if the rest of the world allowed it and had no issue with it, the US should not either.
But of course, we value our privacy. We recognize that one company siphoning off $3 billion a quarter in profits really should be turning something back to the us. Listen, Bill Gate's donations to charity keep him from having to pay huge amounts of dollars to the government in taxes. This simply allows him to keep more of his money.
I've read the figures about how much his foundation gives, what their yearly budget is. Compared to $3 billion in profit every quarter $1 billion annually (from not just his donations, but others) is nearly nothing. Does he help the people in WA state where he enjoys laws that benefit his profit? From laws that give him tax breaks? Laws that provide him with a workforce that can be forced into 70-80 hours a week without compensation for each hour of work? He gives some money to libraries, schools, etc., but he does nothing for the community.
You can see this. Look at google earth and view the area around the location where his main offices are. There are no real parks, no special services, no assistance to public tranist. Nothing.
The bottom line is that WGN allows him to force purchases by those probably too poor to purchase his expensive OS already. XP costs alot of money for some. It is due to his monopoly that allows the OS to stay as highly priced as it is. Now he wants us all to upgrade to Vista which to anyone with a brain knows that it is just XP SP3. The security features could/should be incorporated into XP considering how much money we all paid for it and how irresponsible Microsoft has been toward the security of the OS, even after 2 years where they know that spyware/malware is so bad that even their head of the department for developing anti-spyware/malware tools tell us it is impossible to resolve all the problems and that we are just going to have to reformat every so often just to keep a safe secure system.
They'll justify Vista as a security fix when everyone realizes that Vista is just XP with a new interface and a huge increase in hardware requirements forced generally due to DRM implementations
You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
That's what they're doing in China. I remember reading some Microsoft exec saying, "If they're going to steal software, I'd rather it be our software."
All the more reason to use:
Mac- open box, take out and turn on, use
Linux- install, reboot once, use.
As I type this I just realized that even Tier1 OEM vendors require at least 1 reboot for XP. I just setup a HP/Compaq a few weeks ago and it required a reboot.
if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
1. Not everyone who gets a subpoena is automatically guilty 2. There are plenty of reasons why a law-abiding innocent person would choose to destroy information rather than have it revealed 3. There is nothing stopping Microsoft from handing the information over without a subpoena. 4. An individual may have the opportunity to destroy the information prior to receiving the subpoena Your hypothetical suffers from the common phallacy of "If you're not guilty then you have nothing to hide." If you don't understand why that is such a dangerous assumption then there is nothing I can say to communicate my point.
but I hope they manage to make every single user pay for Windows, soon.
The thing is is you don't try to force users to pay by screwing your legitimate users. Instead of getting more people to pay you may drive them away. That's what they're doing to me. I've been buying and using PCs with Windows for almost 10 years but the next computer I get will be a Mac. If MS includes Activation in a product I won't buy it if I can get away without having it.
FalconShould there be a Law?
So, another hyped story killed with a modicum of common sense
Common sense does not apply with an organization like M$. From the fine article:
A ZDNet.com blogger reported earlier in the week on a conversation between a Windows user and a Microsoft support staffer, who allegedly admitted that users who refused to install the WGA update would be given 30 days before their copies of Windows would stop working. ZDNet.com said that Microsoft refused to deny the report at the time. But later, Microsoft appeared to sing a different tune. No, Microsoft antipiracy technologies cannot and will not turn off your computer,
That's what I remember too, amazing.
There would have been no kill switch story if M$ had just been honest to begin with. They are not honest, so all you are left with is the facts: WGA installs itself, if you don't have it they won't give you "updates", when installed it phones home every day.
Speculation based on those facts and previous behavior is natural. For years, minor changes to your hardware would stop your M$ computer from working ether through technical failure or forced reregistration. Given their willingness to ship buggy product and previous mechanisms that "turn your computer off", a reasonable person would guess WGA would be doing the same thing. Indeed, what's it going to do if it does find a "non genuine copy"?
M$'s intentionally bad non free driver situation can be compared to live CDs. Knoppix, auto configures in less time than it takes XP to boot and still has room for a complete office suite and web server. Changing hardware in a M$ computer is tricky at best. Even if you are successful, you will often be forced to re register.
M$'s practice of forced reregistration on minor hardware changes has no parallel in any industry.
The William Gates Agent [WGA] is going to suck.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Microsoft has a right to get paid for someone taking/consuming/using what they produce
Now who is confusing rights?
MSFT _may_ have a MORAL right to get paid for someone using what they produce. But MORAL rights don't mean shit. Your moral right an $0.50 will get you a newspaper.
But MSFT does NOT have a LEGAL right to be paid for someone using what they produce. Oh, under copyright they have the legal right to STOP someone from using what they produce, and that person may have a contractual right to use the software if they paid and MSFT agreed to the payment. But fundamentally MSFT is not under some compulsory license to to allow anyone who pays to use their product, which is what your "right" to be paid would result in.
IP (in general) is a negative right. You have the right to STOP someone from using what you have. Not a right to use it yourself (especially with patents) and no right to be paid (unless there is compulsory licensing).
Here's a little hint: If pirated copies stopped working, people would buy a legal copy.
Wow, do you go to RIAA University? The same one that says if P2P doesn't exist all those customers would go out and buy those CDs and DVDs they pirated?
Quite true, but I doubt you can lay all of the blame at Microsoft's feet. This is the way the entire retail world works.
I've built many systems and what it really comes down to is the type of system you intend to build. There's no way in hell a whitebox builder can meet a $299.99 price. They can, however, compete well on a $1500+ system, even with Windows and Office. I've done it many times. And, no, I'm not pirating anything.
In any case, what MS does is what ATI, ASUS, and every one else does. It's still not an excuse to pirate software.
If Nalgene water bottles are outlawed, only outlaws will have Nalgene water bottles.
If Microsoft was willing to cut the price to the home user for their OS, there wouldn't be a need to pirate it in the first place. Set a price point around 30-40$ US for the full retail edition and you'd see a massive decrease in piracy.
-Kinsey
I hadn't thought about this in a long time, but your post made me remember of a trick (and security hole) to get a dos prompt on a win95 (and 98?) computer! Just type "mode co80" and/or "cls" on the "It's now safe to turn off your computer screen", which seems to be running on top of a command.com shell hehe.
The AACS key is NOT 0xF606EEFD628B1CA427BEA93A9CA9773F
Basically I'm sure the software for his Palm introduced a new networking component that has caused this. It happens with our software all the time. We have a licensing mechanism that ties into a few hardware parts of the computer - the basic HDD serial number and the MAC address being two of them which is public info. So if you introduce a new NIC of any sort, the license breaks. And of course people can go "OMFG WTF!?" all the want - but here's the deal... for those people who, for example, use a USB bluetooth dongle and plug that in and out all the time, the license breaks and unbreaks (we get them a new license which now ties to the MAC of the bluetooth dongle) then breaks again as they remove it, etc we make a new license key that ignores the MAC address.
Now guess what has happened, twice, already...
They come to us and say that they had to replace the HDD after a crash. They send in a new authorization file, we check - the MAC is the same, the machine name is the same, the HDD s/n is different. Fair 'nuff. So we should get them a new license.
Or should we? Because in two verified situations, all the end-user did was rename a second computer, stick their bluetooth USB key in that, and generated an auth for it. So guess what happens? We get them another license file for what should have been the same computer with a different HDD, but which is essentially a second computer; because the MAC identifier was the USB key, the license type is MAC-less, and so will happily run on that computer.
Instant free extra licenses - 'piracy' at its best.
So although the author may whine about a change, probably a network stack change, he has his colleagues in the industry to thank for it - because we all know it's not going to stop the users who specifically set out to get an illegal copy, but it will stop those sneaky bastards who prefer not to get caught with pants down with a known illegal copy and instead have a 'licensed' copy to show to any auditing entity.
In a perfect world, people would be honest. In a perfect world, copy and licensing protections wouldn't have to exist. Here's to all software becoming free-as-in-beer and professional coders finding a way to make a living through other means, so that everybody benefits. Just a shame that's not going to happen anytime soon.
In the older win2000 and NT systems, using a win98 boot floppy with the ntfs files copies to it (as described in making an ERD) we used to rename the cmd.exe from the system or system32 directory and insert it as the logon screen saver. The process would give us fully functional command promt at the logon screen were we could change passwords or check other things like server settings.
It should work on win95-98 systems too except you would do it ot the regular screen saver. also you still can do stuff like this with the printer commands so to elevate to admin access all you would have to do is print to a hidden network printer. just like in win95, this is great for acessing recovering passwords and such. Although there are easier ways availible now.
No. You will have two valid licenses and three valid keys. Using all three keys would be just as much a copyright violation as using a warez version of XP.
I'm not certain that MS would switch off features in pirated versions of Windows, but what's to stop them from doing other things to non-legitimate versions? For example, the Aero interface on Vista could be disabled for non-genuine Windows versions, the maximum screen resolution could be 1024x768, only utilising one core on dualcore CPUs, etc. That seems much more likely than switching every PC off, I believe.
Each time you re-install Windows you need to explain your motives at Microsoft. And be sure they'll log your call. It's not that bad, but I don't like the idea to answer for my actions at Microsoft.. ...and typing over a 56-digit key twice :-|.
FYI: In my case, a bad driver from windows update caused display problems and it could not be fixed with Dell support. To get a new activation key you'll have to explain this first at the phone.
The best way to accelerate a windows server is by 9.81 m/s2
Forget about sueing for slander. Such cases are drawn out and expensive, and Microsoft can certainly afford better lawyers than you can.
A safer approach would be to bill them for your time sorting out the problems they have created for your clients, then when they don't pay, file a claim against them (does the US have something like the small claims process here in the UK? - it is cheap, no lawyer required, and often large companies don't bother turning up for the hearing and lose by default).