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Microsoft to Supply Electronics to Formula 1
Yooden_Vranx writes "speedtv.com reports that beginning in 2008, Microsoft will be the sole supplier of Engine Control Units to Formula 1. Apparently, moving to a single supplier is part of the FIA's (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) attempts to cut costs.
The article does not clarify whether this cost reduction is enabled by cutting back on tech support, what percentage of the engine's power will be required to run all the 'features' embedded in the device, or whether 'crash' will now refer primarily to software behavior rather than driving incidents."
BORING
BORING
BORING
It shouldn't be up to the FIA to decide, the teams should make their own decisions, whether that be choosing a Microsoft OS or another.
Maybe Im wrong, but I feel like there has been a huge influx of blatant Microsoft bashing lately in the article descriptions. Some of it is humorous, some of it may be true, but it just seems like Ive been reading some OSS-Microsoft-hating version of Fox news. I dont remember it always being this way. Seriously, what gives?
-Lanimilbus
Hahahahahahahaha! It's funny because it's 1998! Oh, wait.
Well, it's still funny because it's the same joke from the summary! Things are always funny if you say them twice.
The only type of OS you want in a car, if any and as in any mission critical application, is a microkernel os. No, nothing else, not even linux.
Microkernel OSes for made for mission critical, have a small number of lines and are mathematically proven.
"Microsoft employs many of the smartest programmers and engineers out there"
Yes, but what do they DO to them?
"a lot more services and products than just Windows"
Most of which suck pretty badly. What's your point?
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
FIA have been trying to handicap the teams -- in particular the winning teams -- for years. They have required barge boards on the cars' bellies, smaller tires, grooved tires, inferior brakes, smaller engines.
They have also had difficulty stating and enforcing meaningful restrictions on driver aids like automatic transmissions, traction control and anti-lock brakes.
There's nothing new about FIA mandating a lame standardized component, ostensibly to level the playing field.
The same article mentions Michelin being squeezed out of F1 (i.e. Bridgestone being the only supplier). Competition provides too much incentive for improvement, and, I daresay, too little cash flow from suppliers to FIA.
Windows CE is NOT a real-time operating system, no matter what Microsoft claim.
Of course. This is Slashdot, after all...
-:sigma.SB
WARN
THERE IS ANOTHER SYSTEM
MS has been active in the Automotive sector for quite some time now, and is one of the biggest players in the market. They have a full fledged Automotive Division, and some of their systems based on CE go into Fiat, Volvo and others I dont know. So if you think they just jumped into it, well no.
Far as I can see, Microsoft's only products are "entertainment units" and software for managing the manufacturing end. This wasn't a jump; it was a leap into an empty swimming pool, naked, in the dark, off the high board. This is what I used to refer to as a "Greens Deal"- ie, two honchos on the golf course shake hands on a deal that doesn't make the slightest sense (sample: conglomerate I worked for was not allowed to purchase any LCD panels except HP LCD panels- and we didn't get a very good discount, either.) Someone at F1 shook hands with someone at MS on the golf course, a suitcase of money went to F1 (Bernie Ecclestone NEVER met a dollar he didn't like, despite having billions of them) and as a result, F1 engine technology just took a massive step backwards.
They're not even remotely qualified to make real-time software, much less real-time hardware. When you have an engine with 8-12 cylinders that revs to over 15,000 RPMs and pushes the absolute limit of performance, timing is beyond critical. Race cars are torture on electronics; vibration, temperature, and TONS of electrical interference. MS has never worked on something like this. Ever.
Prediction: MS will try to use all sorts of DSPs and such to do signal processing instead of discreet circuits. The cars will run very poorly- and it will be nearly impossible for the team race engineers to figure out why. That's if the electronics themselves even survive the environment.
Hilarity will ensue, like MS engineers telling teams, "well, why don't you just shield all the wiring and run more grounds?" "Because that would add 50 pounds of weight." "So?" Or..."what do you mean, there's no chassis ground?" "Which part of CARBON FIBER IS NOT CONDUCTIVE DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?!" I would pay good money to hear tape recordings from Northampton, Maranello, etc...I'd learn all sorts of new swear words.
Two companies that are infinitely more qualified come to mind immediately- Bosch and MOTEC (Magneti Marelli is a little too tied to Ferrari, I think.) 3/4 of the world's auto racing engineers cut their teeth and/or use MOTEC ECUs. Companies like Bosch and MOTEC have engineers that have the necessary signal processing down pat, and they've been doing this stuff for decades. I don't see fresh grads having the skills, nor do I see seasoned engineers as being willing to take a big risk with MS...and F1 isn't the kind of place where you can grab a bunch of programmers and EEs, hand them books about racing electronics, and expect results. Where is MS going to get the talent for this?
Please help metamoderate.
Cingular sells windows powered smart phones and verizon sells phones able to play Microsoft protected music. While you down Microsoft; XBOX 360s are sold. While you laugh and joke about the BSOD; Microsoft works with Bosch to bring the Internet to the auto via Windows CE. While you laugh and joke about Microsoft; LG incorporates the Microsoft channel guide into their plasma high definition monitors/TVs and continues their IPTV initiatives.
Keep your jokes coming because while you talk about how inferior Microsoft is on the desktop, Microsoft is working it's way into the rest of your life...one device at a time.
Well it probably went something like this, "So Mr. Balmer how much experience do you have with real time OS's that don't crash?"
Balmer hands man note with large number proceeded by dollar sign.
FIA guy, "Really that much. The contract is yours."
OMG Ponies!!! with Glitter!!!! I miss Pink
New hardware found: opponent's front wing, inserted in rear spoiler. ..and so on and so forth, the jokes come to mind (this being a benign one).
:p
Do you want your car to connect to the Internet and search for (new/other/replacement) drivers ?
HOWEVER
Keep in mind we're not talking about something as complex (or rather said, HUGE, not just complex) as Windows, so basically you could assume they're going to be able to do a much better job (wether or not they'll actually manage to do it, that's different).
I'm all for bashing Windows as a soulles corp that profits from the user's misfortune, but even I draw the line somewhere between reality and cruel jokes.
If you imagine for a second Microsoft will afford to make a critical mistake in putting this together and having it as reliable as one would expect, you're probably making the worst assumption of your life.
If for nothing else, then for the insanely bad publicity if something bad happens... and for the awesome good publicity they'll get after one season IF they manage to have a "flawless operation of Microsoft ECUs in this season of F1" kind of record.
IMHO, this will actually be one of the most reliable things Microsoft ever produced (or will ever produce)
By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
I doubt you've ever even used WinCE (called Windows Mobile now btw). Seems like your comment is just MS-bashing FUD.
Windows Mobile is a "platform" based on WinCE. It's what they used to call Pocket PC. Basically it's a CE core, Windows Media Player, Internet Explorer, and the Pocket PC UI and control panel (there's a few more things that I forget). People who aren't doing PDAs (like, oh, those doing engine control systems), use WinCE.
Now, what do you suppose the difference is between running CE in a cash register (which, in my opinion, is a good idea), versus running it in an automobile (not such a good idea, again, in my opinion)? I know, for example (being a WinCE user), that WinCE 5.x uses a shared single virtual memory space, divided into slots for the application. And that the code segment is mostly unprotected from write access (in a supposedly modern OS, can you believe it?), and that it has no security model whatsoever, and that all apps run in kernel mode and can, if they feel like it, capture the processor and stop all preemption and interrupts. Because of this, I'm not worried running WinCE on a cash register, but I am a bit more fearful in the case where lives are involved.
The cars could be anything the engineers could come up with to go faster. Each car unique, a prototype with parts made for the purpose. The idea that you can cheat by using different software at different points during the race is ridiculous, the idea that it should be safe is also ridiculous, they are by definition supposed to be racing at the extreme limits of physical and mental performance.
Now Formula 1 is terminally boring, it's about going round a track and coining in as much advertising and TV revenue as is possible. It's a business rather than the big race it used to be. These days I watch MotoGP instead. Now those guys know how to race.
Deleted
All Windows jokes start from windows XP (and 2K, 98, 95....). But its kernel is very good. It's the drivers/applications that cause the crashes. But on an ECU (I'm a software developer for car automated transmissions, but with administrator background) you develop a very different code. The goal is to reduce delays to ms timings, whereas in Windows (XP, CE, whatever) a one-time delay of 200ms, you (user), won't even notice. That's the difference between a RTOS and a desktop/server OS.
Besides, the Windows (entire code) has hundreds of employees, but on a RTOS you don't need more than 20-30 people. The idea is that Windows has many projects (each app independently), whereas the ECU code forms at most 4-5 bynaries. So you cannot put too many people on one project, because it will delay it even more.
It's still unclear what they will be producing (HW/SW), but it's clear that there will be only one HW platform (not even Intel/AMD types of battles). Also I'm sure that every team can have some software developers to adapt to their engine set, so it won't be entirely MS software.
Your "Formula 0" would quickly be a human-aided computer, and eventually the human would be reduced to the title "passenger".
...or since nothing ever runs to plan, especially at 200mph, the human would br reduced to the title "grease stain".
Safety is everything for Forumula One. Anything Microsoft writes will get inspected with fine tooth combs, then inspected again just to be sure.
Actually, it really has (almost) nothing to do with safety. Formula 1 has long been wary of teams hiding triky ways of doing things like traction control, ABS, etc, within ECU code. If you think about it, it would be very hard to find/control such a thing if the code was coming from all over the the place. It's not as much of an issue now that some of these things (traction control) are back into the "allowed" rules, but it's still a concern I'm sure.
It's the entre for Microsoft into a new industry where they can attempt to become the defacto platform. You're right in that this has nothing to do with Windows, or at least Windows on the desktop, there is little call for a printer driver interface in an engine control unit. F1 is generally regarded as the pinnacle of automotive engineering, with tight turnaround times on modification of parts, little margin for error and generally employing the most advanced techniques. Should Microsoft prove themselves in F1 it would help them leverage the technology to the rest of the auto industry, emerging automakers in China and India would definitely benefit from having world class, inexpensive ECU technology.
For a company of Microsoft's size, even F1 budgets are relatively small change, Microsoft's revenue is about 10 times the combined budgets of all F1 teams. But if Microsoft gets a contract to supply the ECU software for every Toyota, Mercedes or Nissan (all manufacturers competing in F1) that should be enough to wake up the stock again. They may call the technology Windows for Autos or something silly like that (autos.Net?) but like their PDA and cell phone operating systems it will have little to do with the desktop operating system.