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SUSE Linux Enterprise 10, a Closer Look
Tripperfish writes "Mad Penguin's Adam Doxtater has published an in-depth review of SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10, Novell's alleged 'Vista Killer.' From the article: 'SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 is a very capable, industrial strength desktop which is ready to take on basic desktop chores in the corporate environment, and for the price you simply cannot go wrong. ' The review comes complete with screenshots and Flash movies of the install, new GNOME interface, and Beagle in action."
In no article I've seen has any writer actually suggested or "alleged" that SUSE Enterprise 10 is going to be a "Vista killer," as the story submitter (and transitively, /. editor) purported. Gotta love the FUD.
/. killers, and YouTube killers and now apprently Vista killers...
You certainly wouldn't hear Novell utter those words. I believe that a company that's been around as long as they have has more sense than that and knows that the best they could ever hope for is "Vista competitor." It would be interesting to know just how much of a margin Novell would have to take of Microsoft's sales in order for them to consider the maneuver to be a success.
On a side note, this "killer" stuff is getting way out of hand, with iPod killers and Flash killers, and
Please folks; enough with the killing.
Can't we all just get along?
Falun Dafa is good!
This does look like a nice desktop solution but I do not see any mass migrations to SLED in the enterprise. With the existing installed base of windows & apps in the companies I consult for, it will take alot more than this to replace the windows based systems. It is realtively easy to get some backend server moved over with proper justification but most dont want to disrupt the installed base of users with the change and associated complications, beside windows does not cost $300 dollars in the enterprise. Corporate licences are very reasonable and may even be cheaper in the ong run.
They used Suse Linux on the Enterprise? I guess I never saw that episode.
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Say what? Microsoft isn't supporting NT 4 now. Are companies migrating en masse to Fedora 5 or whatever version it was in 2000? And I am sure that Novell is just chomping at the bit, waiting for 2011, when MS stops supporting XP.
I have a SLES Admin job, and if we weren't sticking with 9 for support reasons (Dell is staying with 9 for the forseeable future 1Y+) I'd be excited to support 10.
KDE is gone - practically erased from the experience. There is a QT4 interface control panel, and a few mentions of Kthis and Kthat, but you hardly ever see it. YaST (GUI) is GTK2/Mono, the Zen software manager is Mono, the Desktop is Gnome.
The usability is almost there.. I give it until version 11, and if HP and Dell get behind it like they say they are, you can validate the 'Vista-killer' remark, no matter how stupid it is.. There will finally be two real alternatives for Intel desk/laptops: Leopard and SLED.
OK. I read the article. The replacement for the start menu is interesting (even if it is, in many ways, like the start menu in XP). I'm glad to see they like Beagle (which I haven't read much about). The fact that single sign-on works with Active Directory is also interesting. But that's not what I take away from the article.
It was written by someone who has no hopes of ever being a journalist and should stop writing to try to convince people.
After reading that article I don't want to try the new SUSE version. I probably wouldn't have if it was written well. But instead, I get an article that is mostly good with a few VERY odd bits thrown in. Like I was reading along about something on the second page or so and came across something along the lines of "... and Mac users (dirty rotten hippies all of 'em". Do you have ANY IDEA how much that makes me respect the author?
That's stupid enough, but he then goes on later to talk about Spotlight and how everyone should try it and how great it is. Last I checked, there was only one way to use Spotlight: on a Mac.
There are other little bits too. Like on the last page when he says that you don't have to worry next year when "Windows ME 2.0 is released" because Linux already has all the features. First, it doesn't. Biggest omission: DirectX 10. Now I know that's not the fault of anyone involved in Linux, but the statement is wrong. More importantly, it is a cheap shot.
If the article was all fan-boy ravings, that would be one thing. If the article was all high-quality overview, that would be another. But the author can't seem to decide which of those he is. In fact, the author couldn't even decided to take a middle ground.
This kind of stuff only hurts the community. I see next to no honest reviews of Linux. I tons of "Windows is dead!" reviews that just don't take everyday use into account for the average user. Here's a great OS. It's perfect for your little sister. But only one of her 12 games will run, that will take work. And you can't buy games for it so you are basically giving up playing commercial games on your computer. Yes, you can dual boot Windows and play games that way. What's that you say? So why bother with Linux?
This kind of stuff is just juvenile. You can point out SUSE has features of Vista now without calling it "Windows ME 2.0". You can point out people use Macs without calling them all dirty hippies.
And you can guarantee I'll never read an article off that site again.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Mozilla = Mosaic Killer, dating from long before you ever pushed a mouse. Relax, it's an olde tradition.
I think Novell's strategy with SLED isn't to bill it as a wholesale replacement for XP in the general desktop, but for "edge" workstations, like help desk people. I personally think it'd be great for a developer machine -- if you were a Java or Web developer, at least.
But if they want to be successful at all, they'll need to nail these two things:
1) Marketing
2) Alleviating fears about training and support.
And Novell has been known to suck at (1) -- and it's going to be all uphill for (2). But good luck to them, because we need more variety in computing to keep MS on their toes and valuing their developers more so that they actually have to compete on merits for a change.
random underscore blankspace at ya know hoo dot comedy.
One of the main reasons I stick with SuSE is because of bleeding edge KDE builds and bleeding edge builds of every KDE/QT based package (Amarok is very important to how I live). Is this going to be some kind of Grand Plan going forward, or is this "GNOME is easier for the average desktop user, so that's our Enterprise desktop product" because KDE has too much customization for the corporate desktop? Give SuSE's history with KDE, I would really hate to see them fall out of the K mainstream. I don't think I could live with GNOME's limitations on my customization of my own experience, it's very important to me that I can make my desktops do exactly what I want them to do for the way that I do my job.
I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop when Novell bought out Ximian, is this that shoe?
I like music
Where is SuSE's wireless support? I like SuSE, but am on an encrypted 802.11g network with a wireless card with a broadcom chipset... I know it's broadcom's problem the chipset isn't open, but I can't use SuSE without wireless support.
I've been on the beta the entire time and I have to say that I'm very happy with what they've done. Yes, I work quite a bit with Novell so I'm biased but having tried to support desktop Linux deployments using other solutions has been miserable. The amount of time and money that's gone into making SLED 10 enterprise ready is impressive. They even have an intro video with clips for all the major pieces of the desktop for helping new users (similar to the Windows XP new user intro) so that it's as easy as possible for new users to get up and running. The gnome menu interface is very slick with the beagle integration and the end result is a very clean desktop. For anyone who is interested in trying it out you can get it from Novell (you have to fill out a survey first). I highly recommend just giving it a try to at least see what Novell's been up to.
Always take these kind of reviews with a grain of salt. It just isn't possible to get a feel for a system after using it for just a couple of weeks.
1. Package management is very important. Can the package manager automatically handle conflicts and upgrade as many packages as possible without screwing up? Will I have to use some weird command line incantation like "yum --resolve-pkgs xyz-1.0 -f -v -qr ~/.yumrc" when things go wrong or something equally horrible?
2. Is it forward compatible? That is, does SUSE have an equivalent to "apt-get dist-upgrade"?
3. Where are the DROP SHADOWS?!? The screenshots show the Compiz WM presumably running on Xgl, so there should be drop shadows in there.
4. Since the WM used is Compiz it means you have lots of cute effects, like wobbly windows, transparency and shadows. It also means you don't have all the useful features that a mature WM like Metacity has; like proper workspaces (the desktop cube isn't fully developed yet last I looked at it), accessability options, lots of different themes to choose from, configurable keybindings etc.
5. Why Gnome 2.12? Gnome 2.12 wasn't a very good release for me, speed wise it was a noticable regression from 2.10. Thankfully most of those regressions have been fixed in 2.14 so I'm very surprised to hear about this SUSE shipping with 2.12. One would hope that the upgrade path to 2.14 would be smooth and painless, see point 2.
In short, SUSE 10 has some very exciting new features, Windows-like start menu, Beage integration, very good looking icon set and Xgl. But I doubt it is a Vista killer or even an Ubuntu killer because of the aforementioned points. I'll stick with Ubuntu, but I really hope that the Ubuntu devs will copy all the cool features from SUSE 10.
There is some non-free software included with the non-free version (e.g. Flash). But you can get it for the free version, you just need to do a few clicks. Another difference is that the free version is meant to be sort of a 'testing ground' for the non-free one (like Fedora and Red Hat). So you might find things aren't as stabile.
As for Ubuntu, I use it. But I would recommend you try both Ubuntu and Suse (the free version, for starters), since they're free. See which is better for you.
I can't believe they aren't going to use gnome 2.14 and xorg 7.x. In my experience, both have made linux incredibly MORE responsive. I haven't used SLED10 yet so I can't compare to gentoo with the above, but I know moving from 2.12 and xorg 6.x it was 100% different as far as responsiveness on my *older* laptop (PIII 850/192MB/ram).
The actual OS that will kill Vista will be Windows XP.
Nobody will upgrade via actual choice, just having it on their new computers, as forced by their hardware vendor. And that doesn't actually get MS any more money for developing Vista over XP (unless they raise prices).
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Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
I don't think there will be a Windows-killer until someone figures out a (legal or economic) way to get around Microsoft's network effect. It is an unfortunate fact that for many people (but not all), much of an OS's value is extrinsic - derived from the use of that same software/supported standards by others. Because MS intentionally destroys interoperability with others, and because it is the de facto standard for many things (but certainly not all), an alternative OS/software system (like OpenOffice) would have to have much higher intrinsic value to make up for the reduced extrinsic value.
Wake me up when this happens, I'll buy everyone a drink.
I checked out the article linked to the words "Vista killer." The word "killer" appears nowhere in the article, leaving me to wonder: "Vista killer" alleged by whom? We Linux users are hopeful, but not stupid. The article does compare Vista and SUSE, but and the summary's vague "alleged" without support, coupled with a quotation from an unknown and possibly imaginary source, strikes me as distortion.
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My primary boxes run SuSE 10 OSS and SLED and at least 5 production boxes have been switched to SLES.
Fact is, SLED while certainly an improvement on what has come before it still isn't smooth enough for us. The Novell client is flaky, the various SuSE network config scrips don't play well with secondary DNS suffixes and simple things like the various pack-in apps don't work properly out of the box. Also, while not a SuSE issue specifically, WordPerfect support in OpenOffice is horrible. You might think "So what?" but the schools systems and government offices that run Novell are quite often running the WordPerfect Suite as well.
(Up until this year the WPO cost in volume licensing was insignifigant relative to that of MSO. WP is enjoying a false sense of security right now since MSO 07 was delayed.)
Now, if SLED isn't good enough to convince existing customers who are already fairly pro-Novell and pro-Linux what hope is there is convert the rest of the world?
The feature set is fine as it is. Novell/SuSE need stop adding new crap and increasing the major version number. Instead they should be polishing what they have and refining those everyday apps that the "users" actually care about.
I'm not sure how you think making a web browser look like an email client will do anyone any good.
I won't even go into what I personally think of the Outlook Express interface, as that is just opinion.
You know now that I think of it you are on to something here, OSS needs this kind of thinking to really take off. We need Open Office to be designed to look just like Nero. And if only Evolution looked just like Windows Movie Maker. That will make adoption so much easier!
[/tongue in cheek mode]
Shawn's Tech Articles
Take a look at this article. Yes it's crap - but this article DOES say that desktop 10 is taking on VISTA and aims to beat it.
Sure - it doesn't use the word "killer". But that quote has the same meaning that I understand from the term "Vista Killer".It won't be tho - VISTA will probably end up kicking its ass when it's released (bundled with Duke Nukem Forever)
It is at the moment. If you have a look on their website, Novell are offering a free download for evaluation. Unlike some other evaluation versions of operating systems, it doesn't expire.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
I hear a lot of discussion about the fact that the new Microsoft Office is so different from earlier versions and Vista is feared to be so locked down that most home grown applications will break or need major tweaking that alternatives like Suse Linux are being seriously considered.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
The reviewer totally spaced off the coolest part of SLED, seamless support for XGL. SLED has an XGL configurator built into the control panel. It even makes installing vga drivers easy on Linux for once, no mucking with the xorg.conf to get dual monitors or XGL working.
Seriously, if you like eye candy, Linux has never had it better. This will even impress the guys using a Mac. Remember how cool it was to play with the Dock the first time? This is like that only better.
If you could care less for eye candy but like the productivity boost of Apple's Expose, then you need to look into SLED. If you like accessability, XGL does zoom better than any other desktop, even Windows. No other distro has XGL like SLED does since Novell sponsored its development. http://www.novell.com/linux/xglrelease/ Its hard for me to believe that this guy missed that in his review.
I don't think that SLED 10 is a Vista killer, but it does make Desktop linux look good even to Windows fanboys. Seriously, give XGL on SLED a look.
The real Vista killer is not SUSE Enterprise but it's OSX ported to the Windows Platform. Apple has what it takes to do it but they simply refuse to because they want people to buy their hardware.
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You can download SUSE Linux 10.2 Alpha 1 here.
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To all ya posters out there: It is SUSE not SuSE or certainly not S.u.S.E. anymore. Also it would be nice if /. would update its SUSE icon to something that looks like something that is used for SUSE at this moment.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
"for Linux to a serious desktop option, your mom needs to be able to use it, write a word doc and e-mail her friends. That is not the case with Linux."
Me moms been using Linux since 1998. And I mean using it, not dicking around with like you. First SuSE, now Gentoo soon to be Ubuntu. She clicks the icon in her taskbar to dialup her ISP. She prefers it to Windows because:
1. It's stable
2. It's easy to use
3. It has all the applications she wants (e-mail, word processor, web browser)
4. Multiple desktops
5. It looks better than Windows
So maybe your talking about your mom?
Kind Regards
"A few great minds are enough to endow humanity with monstrous power, but a few great hearts are not enough to make us w
I am not a regular SUSE user but I have used SUSE in the past and as an administrator at a site with a small (few 100) Linux desktops I have recently been testing SUSE 10.1 as the site has always used SUSE.
Take all of these replies with a grain of salt. I haven't filed problems in Novell's bugzilla and anyone complaining about things but not filing bugs probably isn't interested in helping to make things better.
1. Package management. This is a curious one as Yast's dep solving seems to now be done by the Novell zmd daemon. This daemon seems to have a XML-RPC interface and consequently can be driven by many interfaces. Yast is one GUI front end, rug is a text driven front end and there are some GTK zmd-installer/zmd-updater tools too. Alas Yast's package groups don't yet appear to be rug bundles which is a little frustrating. In SUSE 10.1 there is also a bug which renders the zmd* and rug unable to resolve dependencies. You will have to use Yast to get an update that fixes this.
2. SUSE has alway had the option within the Yast control centre to upgrade to a new version of SUSE. I haven't tested rug's ability to do this but after patching it seems fairly capable. The bad news is that the dep solver is slower than Red Hat/Fedora's yum (interesting yum is written in Python and novell-zmd is written in mono). The daemon can go to sleep and takes time to wake up (I also wonder if it refetches the list of packages on remote sources every time it wakes up). It eats a lot of memory and CPU when solving but might have lots of interesting features like being able to have updates "pushed" to it (handy when you have lots of machines).
3. There are drop shadows in compiz under XGL when I used it.
4. This is true. Compiz lacks metacity's focus stealing prevention, you can't drag windows off the top and bottom of the screen. You can configure keybindings and it seems to follow GNOME's theme (but not KDEs). It's very usuable and I believe was based off metacity originally (for Wm decisions).
5. Dunno. Perhaps they want to let it stablise (Ubuntu carries a bunch of patches to stabalise its version of 2.14).
There are things in SUSE 10.1 that definitely make it more attractive for large installations (proxy management is far better than the other distros I've used). I need more time to evaulate beagle, XGL works fairly well for me even with KDE (getting XGL going on the integrated Intel graphics cards with open source drivers was a dream compared to the ATI binary drivers). However there are also things broken within SUSE that are not broken elsewhere due to their patches (gaim + jabber + proxy = have to use proxy?!) but other places where their patches are absolutely amazing (I've never seen openoffice start so quickly from cold boot, evolution has right mouse button spelling suggestions!). Until I get round to filing bugs I'm going to leave my criticism there though.