Final Fantasy IV Turns XV

Jeremy Parish, keeper of the retronaut flame, has a nice post on his personal site marking the fifteenth anniversary of FFIV. Released in the states as Final Fantasy II for the SNES, the game chronicles the adventures of dark knight turned paladin Cecil and his wacky band of cohorts. It's still one of my favorite games in the series. From the article: "Tiny sprite theatrics notwithstanding, FFIV had something called moxie. It boldly featured one of those videogame plots where things happen for seemingly arbitrary reasons and there's a lot of traveling back and forth and into dungeons on mini-quests to justify endless killing random monsters and fighting bosses. I guess that's not moxie, really. But whatever it was, it drove dark knight Cecil Harvey across the entire world, into the dwarf-infested depths and eventually to the frickin' moon, so it would be silly to split hairs."

Comments

A new holiday!

[sc0ttyb]

I declare July 19th National Spoony Bard Day!

Re:A new holiday!

[Mattintosh]

That sounds like a good idea. And now, I'm going to insult you for your supposed promiscuity while wishing you a safe trip.

Take care, ho!

Re:A new holiday!

[Anonymous Coward]

And me without any adamant armor to wear on this joyous occasion! I'm still looking for a Pink Tail to trade....

Slow news day?

[Valdrax]

I'm a huge fan of Square and the Final Fantasy series, but isn't celebrating the 15th anniversary of the 4th game in a series kind of stretching it?

Re:Slow news day?

['nother poster]

Dude, get with the program. I only drink when I'm celebrating something. This is worth at least 4 beers tonight.

Re:Slow news day?

[AuMatar]

For any other FF, I'd agree. But FF4 was the pinnacle of the series, and well deserving of celebration.

Re:Slow news day?

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot would claim that it's the defining game in the series. It was the second released in North America, and was much more significant than the first.

Re:Slow news day?

[neonprimetime]

This is worth at least 4 beers tonight.

Odds are you'll be enjoying those 4 beers from the comforts of your dorm room, alone, playing final fantasy IV, reminiscing about Star Trek, and setting the kitchen timer so that you remember to call your mom before 9pm and wish her a happy birthday.

Re:Slow news day?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if it's zonk's favorite in the series, that clearly makes it the most important ;)

Re:Slow news day?

[Mattintosh]

Not really. Up until this game was released in the US, most US gamers were disinterested in RPG's because they were "slow" and "tedious" and "boring". But then some of us didn't get to the video store quickly enough one weekend, and the only thing left to rent was Final Fantasy II. See, all the RPG players had already rented it, played it, bought it, and loved it, so it was almost always in stock. And on those weekends where all the "good stuff" (I look back and shudder at what was "good stuff" sometimes) was already checked out, FF2 was just sitting there with a vocal minority of players nudging you in the back of your mind, telling you "rent it! rent it!" And that weekend was the weekend I became a Final Fantasy Fanboy.

I played the game for a couple of hours that night, and I got as far as Kaipo. The next day, I didn't have much time to play, but I got to Octomamm (who promptly kicked my butt). Then I had to take the game back (short rentals were the norm in those days). But I was hooked. Unfortunately, by the time I discovered how good it was, the game was out of production. Fortunately, FF3 wasn't far behind. As luck would have it, FF3 was even better than FF2. Too bad that set an unreachable mark for Squaresoft and everything since then has been disappointing.

Re:Slow news day?

[Garrett Fox]

RPGamer.com celebrated 1998 Oct. 1, "The END DAY" in the obscure NES game "Crystalis," and remade the whole page for the "Day of Lavos" in 1999. (Which was strange, since I don't think "Chrono Trigger" even gave the day of the year.)

Re:Slow news day?

[Valdrax]

For any other FF, I'd agree. But FF6 was the pinnacle of the series, and well deserving of celebration.

Sorry, you had a typo there, and I felt compelled to fix it.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

But FF8 was the pinnacle of the series

Fixed again.

Rob (Would also accept "FF7")

Re:Slow news day?

[Ryan Amos]

The series turned to crap the day it went 3d and turned into a teen angst soap opera. FF7 was okay but FF8 was the death of the series as far as I'm concerned.

Re:Slow news day?

[voice_of_all_reason]

(Which was strange, since I don't think "Chrono Trigger" even gave the day of the year.)

Tell me if this sounds crazy...

The day of Lavos always begun when you stepped through the portal to 1999 AD. And all the portals moved through time along with what was happening. Going to 600ad at endgame took you to a point where Magus was defeated, not back to he original point where Queen Leene was still kidnapped. Like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, "the clock in Truce Village is always ticking".

Therefore, we can assume that the Day of Lavos is somehow tied to be X time ahead of the 1000ad portal for any given point of time relative to Crono's life. If he grew up and had kids, then decided to hop into the portal 10 years down the road, it would be 2014ad when Lavos rose from the Earth.

As you can see, this presents a unique temporal anomoly where both the effect and cause are in motion throughout the timeline. And what happens 400 years later when the 600ad portal in Truce Forest "laps" the one at the same space/time point in 1000ad?

Getting back to your question, the Day of Lavos happens every 1/infinity of a second after the original event, spread out over the multiverse.

Oh no, my brain...

Re:Slow news day?

[TheDauthi]

Crystalis? Obscure?!?! What planet are you from?

Re:Slow news day?

['nother poster]

If I didn't know better I'd think you were watching me on my web cam and reading my e-mails. You wouldn't happen to work for the NSA would you?!?!?!

Re:Slow news day?

[voice_of_all_reason]

I'd do even better and send her a .zst save of the "ghost town" dummied areas from the Tower of Zot.

Re:Slow news day?

[ReverendLoki]

But FF38 will be the pinnacle of the series

Fixed your typo of a correction of a typo of a correction of a typo. No need to be temporal bigots, after all.

Re:Slow news day?

[Garrett Fox]

Really? It was a good game, but I didn't know it was popular. How about Terranigma?

Re:Slow news day?

[AuMatar]

FF6 is inferior due to materia. Any magic system that lets you make your best attackers awesome nukers and healers is horribly broken. Oh, and it was way to easy to assure your guys hit for max damage each round (especially that guy who did bum rush- make a circle witht he control pad for 9999 damage).

Re:Slow news day?

[Astarica]

When you realize that the main characters are to be completely ignored in FF8, that is when FF8 becomes a good game. Of course I'm sure that is not Square's original intention, but if you just ignore the most whiny and useless batch of heroes ever assembled in a game, you get a rather unique story around Laguna Loire, a man with no special combat powers whatsoever but managed to save the world from destruction.

Re:Slow news day?

[David_W]

you get a rather unique story around Laguna Loire, a man with no special combat powers whatsoever but managed to save the world from destruction.

I know what you mean... my favorite part of FF8 was the Laguna "backstory." Once Squall met Laguna in the present I lost interest.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

FF6 is inferior due to materia.

You've accidentally pointed out why argument about whether or not FF6's gameplay is better than FF7's is silly. The gameplay of the games is so similar that it's really easy to refer to the widgets in FF6 as "materia" without even realizing that you made a mistake.

Rob

Re:Slow news day?

[Canthros]

FF6 did not have materia. It had espers. FF6's characters, like the character classes in FF7, FF8, FF9, and FF10 are defined by character-specific abilities. In this regard, I found FF8 by far the worst, because the characters felt *completely* interchangeable, their differences being mostly cosmetic. To get the same sort of feeling from FF6, I spent 80+ hours leveling up.

Also, you should try FF5, where your characters *are* completely interchangeable, given time.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

Squall is actually the best-written character of any FF game. The problem is that he's also very unsympathetic to most players, especially on the surface, so not many people really pay attention to his development or the motives behind his outward behavior.

BTW, Squall's friends were totally useless and whined quite a bit, but Squall himself was a very effective leader and kept to himself most of the time. If you want whiny and useless, take a look at Tidus.

Rob

Re:Slow news day?

[voice_of_all_reason]

FF8 was the pinnacle of the series

Or, as I like to call it, "Squaresoft Presents: DRAW FOREVER"

Re:Slow news day?

[Valdrax]

Also, you should try FF5, where your characters *are* completely interchangeable, given time.

No, no you shouldn't, unless you like brutal levelling slogs, a villian that is actually a talking tree turned evil, and the final boss's grudge monster's grudge monster. FF5 is an actually un-fun FF game. The dialogue's pretty trite too.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

Ah, look, someone who has no clue how to play the game finally shows up.

Rob

Re:Slow news day?

[Omestes]

Meh. Sadly I think FFV was probably the best (followed by IV, then VI). Sure it ate time, but the story was amusing, and X-Death is probably the coolest Final Fantasy villian after Kefka (who is tied with Sepheroth). I probably got more joy from V than any other FF game.

Not that I played them all, the ones on PS2 have completely failed to keep me interested, they all seem too much 8 for me, with WAY too much cinamatics. I don't have time to sit though 8 hours of pointless angst.

Re:Slow news day?

[Valdrax]

Actually, I would have to say that FF8 is the 2nd worst FF game (after FF5). The plot is trite and meanders without a lot of purpose, the characters are boring, and the combat system encourages (nay, demands!) that you spend massive amounts of time drawing cards instead of having fun. Also, the characters are interchangeable.

It's the only FF game that I never got around to beating (after a memory card failure at the end of disc 3). I just didn't find it worth my time.

FF6 on the other hand had great characters and a great plot (up until the disaster hits mid-game, after which is becomes a series of disjointed but independently entertaining subplots). The combat system can be horribly abused in the late game to make everyone into hideous nuke characters (if you power-level), but for the majority of the game, there is rich diversity in the characters abilities that most later FF games has not had. The challenge level was high enough to encourage a small amount of levelling but not an endless grind. It just had an all-around fun feel to it in spite of having a story that dealt with some heavy issues like mass murder, slavery, questions of identity, and attempted suicide.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

the combat system encourages (nay, demands!) that you spend massive amounts of time drawing cards instead of having fun.

Ah, here's another one. You don't "draw cards," BTW.

Also, the characters are interchangeable.

If you mean gameplay-wise, they're much like those in most of the other FFs. The characters in FF2, FF3, and FF5 are completely interchangeable (and FF1 as well if you bring the character creation screen into consideration), while those in all of the FFs from FF6 on are nearly completely interchangeable. Except maybe FF9, I don't remember much about that one.

As for FF8's plot, it was pretty weak. The game didn't really gear up until about Disc 3, and at least one scene that's important to understanding Squall's character development is optional. But the story (which, as you should know, is not the same as the plot) is pretty good, certainly better than FF6's or FF4's. (FF6's plot was worse than FF8's too; it fell totally apart halfway through.)

The combat system can be horribly abused in the late game to make everyone into hideous nuke characters (if you power-level), but for the majority of the game, there is rich diversity in the characters abilities that most later FF games has not had.

That diversity ain't that rich. There's very little difference between how Cyan's sword techniques distinguish him and how Squall's Renzokuken distinguishes him, for instance. The only real difference between the two is that you can use Cyan's techniques at any time. (And you can use Squall's limit break at almost any time if you know what you're doing.) The only diversity in FF6 is the sheer number of characters, and that damages other parts of the game far more than it benefits the battle system.

As for the differences between the Junction system and the Esper system, there aren't that many as far as interchangeability is concerned. Just as it takes a while to hard-level everyone into using the best magic in FF6, it takes a while to build everyone's GFs and magic stocks up in FF8. The difference is that FF8's advancement methods are far more enjoyable--if you know what you're doing, of course.

Rob

Re:Slow news day?

[Astarica]

Squall is almost a victim to the game writer's inability to understand his own characters. Squall is portrayed as the perfect lone warrior/commando. You want to blow up something or do something impossible, he's the man to do it. He also possess great skills working/motivating a very small group of people like his father. But he is not a good leader for a large group of people, nor is he a diplomat/politician like Laguna. Yet the game expects him to have such qualities solely due to the fact that he is Laguna's son. From the game you can infer that he doesn't even like to talk to people and the game basically throws him in the defense of the Garden against a vastly superior force. He allegedly motivates a bunch of other scrubs from Garden who most likely never heard his voice into greatness. In fact, you can come up with an utterly unmotivating speech on the leadership scene (it's not obvious what's motivating without a guide anyway) and yet everyone nods and says 'thanks for inspiring us, Squall'!

It almost feels like his inner complaints about 'why me' is a plead to the gaming gods. Indeed, why Squall to lead the Garden when he doesn't even want to? Why does he have to babysit some impossibly stupid comrades from killing themselves?

Re:Slow news day?

[Astarica]

FF8's draw system is basically a really cool system that failed because it is too complicated/unorthodox. The draw spells are essentially your levels, and the time it takes to stock 100 of all the very best spell is significantly lower than the time it'd normally take you develop a character the good old fashion way. Although there are levels in FF8, those levels are basically meaningless because the boss scale up/down depending on your level (it generally works out higher level still nets you an advantage, but not nearly as much as they normally do). Also there's the fact that you can get 1 level per fight at the end using Quistis's Degenerator or various status-Junction instant kill type effects.

Because Encounter-None is easily obtainable, once you get all your draws done you never need to fight another random encounter. If you're so inclined, you can get about 75% of the essential spells by just playing the card game and avoid the random battles altogether (except enough random battles to obtain key status-junction and Encounter-None).

So far as character diversity goes, the only thing that distinquishes any character from any other after FF4 is the fact that every character has a special command, and they might start with a bonus in some category that is easily surpassable with a few level/items (FF9 is an exception). If you don't see this, then you're just fooled by the game. There's nothing stopping you in FF6 to use Terra like a sword fighting powerhouse (in fact she can melee for 9999 easily being one of the 4 big-Sword users) or use Sabin as a caster with some simple manipulation of stat gains during level up from Espers.

Re:Slow news day?

[Astarica]

It takes about 10 levels using a +2 to magic on level up or +2 to strength on level up Esper to overcome any advantage in stats any characters may have had at the start of the game.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

But he is not a good leader for a large group of people

He did quite well with the Garden, in fact. Squall doesn't believe that he's a good leader, but that doesn't mean that he isn't. It is possible for someone to have a lone-wolf personality yet at the same time have leadership skills, you know.

Indeed, why Squall to lead the Garden when he doesn't even want to? Why does he have to babysit some impossibly stupid comrades from killing themselves?

Both good questions, but they aren't really criticisms of the game or of Squall's character. In fact, they are both addressed by the game; Squall has to do these things because he's fated to by what happens at the game's end. And to a lesser extent, he has to do these things because everyone else wants him to. And Squall is nothing if not ridiculously concerned with what other people want.

Rob

Re:Slow news day?

[Haeleth]

The difference is that FF8's advancement methods are far more enjoyable--if you know what you're doing, of course.

Well, yeah. I can see you're having a great time being smug at us, Mr. Expert, but you've actually kind of damned the game out of your own mouth there, you know?

If the opening part of a game teaches players -- in excruciating detail -- how to use a deadly boring technique, then players will tend to use that technique and get bored. Games are meant to be fun, and if the fun stuff is so well hidden that many players never find it, then the game has failed.

Look, I shouldn't have to "know what I'm doing" to enjoy a game. If I don't know what I'm doing, I don't expect to win, but I expect to enjoy myself as I lose, and I expect to carry on enjoying myself as I gradually figure out what to do and start winning. In other words, in-depth knowledge about the game should be the difference between victory and defeat. Not the difference between fun and boredom.

Re:Slow news day?

[7Prime]

One of the many reasons that it's actually my favorite game in the series, just ahead of FF9 and FF6. It's a love or hate game, I've found. I know MANY die-hard Final Fantasy fans (and I mean, people who have played over 50% of the series, including at least one pre-FF7 game), who think it's the finest game in the series... I also know many that think it's the worst thing ever made. I tend to find myself liking games/music/movies that are the biggest polarizers. While I was off at college, about 9 out of 10 die-hard FF fans I knew thought FF8 was the best in the series... but among more casual players, it seems to be a real point of contention. Interestingly, it often gets accused of being a game made for 13 year old boys, but from my experience, 13-year-old boys are the biggest critics of the game, since it revolves around a love story... "GAAAAYYYY!!!!" FF7 was pretty amazing, but I don't think it's anywhere near FF8, I just think it offered a lot of cliche's that were very popular at the time... the characters had a certain charisma (especially Sephiroth) that everyone loved, and I detested. I like FF8 because the characters are all fairly uncharasmatic, and they feel far more realistic that way.

Re:Slow news day?

[7Prime]

Interesting, I found Kuja to be far and away the most interesting villian in the series... he actually has a believably human motiv, other than "I'M INSANE" or, "I'M EVIL". It's a complex combination of, pride, jellousy, and narsicism that lead him to where he is... he's a tragic character that actually mimics the behavior of the hero, had he been on the other side. Unfortunate that his creator's saught to dress him up in the most unappealing clothes ever, so noone would like to admit to finding him interesting, risk they be called "gay". He's one of the very few villians in RPGs that I could actually empathize with. I'm much more partial to empathetic characters/villians than charasmatic ones... which is why I can't stand Sephiroth.

My friend has an interesting theory as to why Kuja dresses in such androginus clothing: it is in deffiance of Garland, who is a hyper-patriarchal figure, with muscular armor and gettup that commands "manliness". Kuja's outfit is a deffiance of that which he hates, that being Garland's unwavering control over his existance. Who knows if this was what the creator's had in mind, but I think it's a very intereting theory, none-the-less.

Re:Slow news day?

[Omestes]

More importantly for me was that he was the first videogame villian to actually develop a sense of pathos. I wanted him dead, and not just because it was part of the game, but because it was more personal. And his laugh... Lord.

Sepheroth was cool, but for different, and more asesthetic, reason. I wanted to BE him, he looked awsome, and he was the ultimate bad-ass. A good foil, though, to the unsure, apathetic Cloud. Cloud would be listening to emo and reading Squall's Myspace account, while Seperoth would be sitting in a dive bar with real friends.

Re:Slow news day?

[bi_boy]

The series turned to crap the day it went 3d and turned into a teen angst soap opera. FF7 was okay but FF8 was the death of the series as far as I'm concerned.

Amen. FF6 and Chrono Trigger ftw.

Re:Slow news day?

[Pluvius]

If the opening part of a game teaches players -- in excruciating detail -- how to use a deadly boring technique, then players will tend to use that technique and get bored. Games are meant to be fun, and if the fun stuff is so well hidden that many players never find it, then the game has failed.

Did you perhaps try reading the manual? Also, there were more tutorials in the game than just that one. One of them quite clearly states that the GFs have various abilities that make your life easier. This stuff isn't hidden at all, you just didn't bother paying attention to it.

In other words, in-depth knowledge about the game should be the difference between victory and defeat. Not the difference between fun and boredom.

Well, that's your opinion, I suppose. Personally, I think that requiring someone to use advanced techniques to succeed is more frustrating than making them optional, and also misses the point of the whole concept of "advanced techniques."

As for whether or not the draw system itself should been more fun? Perhaps. But I'm not sure how it's any less fun than the button-mashing hard-leveling you'd have to do in any other FF to make your characters powerful. At least in FF8 you're given a fun alternative.

Rob

ff7

[DarkestDream]

i rather them to work on FF7, it one of the most great game with great gameplay with good group. even most FF veterans ask for ff7 2

Re:ff7

[Canthros]

Congratulations! You're a newb of poor taste! Although FF7 is undoubtedly one of the best of the games in the series, it is certainly not *the* best, and it signals the entry of many of the later games' problems. You should really give FF6 a good look, and FF4 is, well, available now. (Personally, I think that FF6 > FF7 > FF4, but opinions vary.)

Re:ff7

[Astarica]

FF4-6 supports tend to be the 'it's good back in the old days crowd'. Yes FF4-6 are superior back in the old days when everything else sucked and plot is not taken seriously in a RPG. But in any modern viewpoint to RPG, FF4-6 are pretty standard, solid, but average games in the FF franchise. Now there's nothing wrong with respecting a game for doing well without trying anything new, but not being revolutionary is certainly not a reason for a game to be great.

So far as FFs go, only FF7 and FF10 really stood out and can be considered revolutionary. Again, being revolutionary doesn't necessarily mean good or bad, but those are the games that defined the FF franchise if not the genre, and the general sales numbers support that at least at a public level. Yes I am well aware that selling more doesn't mean something has to be intrinsically better, but selling less definitely proves nothing positive about the intrinsic value of a game, either.

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

No true Final Fantasy fan wants to see more FF7 crap, FF7 marked the end of the true series and the descent into crap.

Final Fantasy 4, on the other hand, was the pinacle of the Final Fantasy games. (At least in the US - I'd love to give FF5 a shot, but I'm not willing to play the PlayStation port - I've tried, the loading times are too extreme. If they ever get around to releasing it on a Nintendo console (GBA, DS, Wii), then I'll give it another go. Screw Sony and their massive load times.)

A lot of people place FF6 above FF4, but I find FF4 to be far superior in game play and story. I cared about the characters in FF4, they made real sacrifices, and they really grew. The characters in FF6 were good (nowhere near as bad as FF7+), but they didn't really stand out the same way as the characters in FF4 did.

As far as gameplay, FF4 involved strategy far more than FF6 did. FF6 removed the inventory size limit, allowing you to never have to decide what you would and wouldn't bring with you. It allows using Espers to essentially turn all your characters into carbon copies with different special abilities. (Then there was Gogo, who WAS a carbon copy of other characters - you assigned abilities to him and could give him multiple specials.)

The real problem with FF6 is that, at the end, the game sort of falls apart as they try to allow a more open-ended approach to RPGs, but just sort of fail. Make no mistake, FF6 is still a great RPG, but it's not as good as FF4.

I'm sure plenty of other people can explain why FF7 sucked, but this post is getting longer than I'd like, so I'll try and keep it short. Cloud started off a depressed loser and ended up a depressed loser. Sephiroth's major selling point as a villian was burning down a village which was rebuilt immediately afterwards. Other than that, all he really did was kill a bunch of people your characters were trying to kill before you got the chance to. Then he tried and failed to destroy the planet. All in all, Kefka from FF6 was a far better villian - he succeeded in his attempt to take over the world. (The villians in FF4 were, to be fair, weaker than in FF6.)

Then there was the "gameplay" - you didn't level up characters as such (you did, it increased their base stats) you leveled up "materia". By swapping around Materia, you could turn any character into anything. Lame.

FF7 also marks the start of emphasis on graphics over gameplay. Since FF7, all the hype around future FF games have been the graphics and cutscenes, and not the gameplay. FF12 makes your characters fight without any input, effectively removing all gameplay from the "game".

FF7 marked the last "good" Final Fantasy game, and so a lot of people remember it as the "best" simply because it was the most recent Final Fantasy game that wasn't attrocious. But FF4 was better. FF4 was the peak. FF6 was almost as good, FF7 was bad, and past that, you're descending into "nigh unplayable".

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

See, I love trying to figure out the mindset that would lead someone to think that FF4 and FF6 have deep characters. Posts like yours help. For instance, now I see that oldschool FF fans have a definition for "villain" that states "someone who blows a lot of shit up and kills people." Motive, personality, or anything else apparently doesn't enter into it. And as a bonus, you also give me a definition for "gameplay:" Bashing a button over and over again until the enemy dies. Thanks for giving me a glimpse into your mind, good buddy.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Mattintosh]

Actually, Final Fantasy defined the genre. (Don't start with DQ/DW, since those were fundamentally different "back in the day".) Final Fantasy 2 and 3 set the pace. Final Fantasy 4 took that torch and ran with it. And when it ran, it ran. FF5 merely continued the work that FF4 started, while setting the stage for the "OMG OPTIONS!" games made for the PSX. FF6 was the pinnacle of storytelling and party configuration.

FF7 was a tech demo and an unfinished, poorly-told story, and is where the series started falling apart. Did anyone understand the FF7 storyline on the first (or even the second) time through the game? Yeah, me either. The characters were awful. By the end of FF7 I was hoping that Sephiroth would win and wipe out all these whiny asshats and their little angst, too. The only thing that was revolutionary was the ZOMG 3D graphics, and even they were poorly done and grainy.

FF8 and FF9 were more of the same pre-rendered BS with half-done stories written by crackheads. FF8 had an interesting (though annoying) magic system. FF9 was completely unremarkable. I gave up on Final Fantasy after that, so I can't comment on FF10. Maybe it truly is better, but I'm more inclined to believe that it's about as "better" as FF7.

This fanboyism and weird love for FF7 is just another example of the rift between gamers who remember what games were like before Sony destroyed the industry by making it "cool" and gamers who remember their "first Playstation". This is not a rant about how all games were better or how we only had 2D and we liked it uphill both ways forty miles butt naked in the snow. It's a rant about how Sony threw money at dev houses to steal them from Nintendo and produced a whole generation of EA-style overhyped, underdelivered, shoddy, games that cater to people who buy games because of how "cool" a game is. FF7 is "cool". I only wish that Squaresoft had actually bothered to finish the game and make it "good" as well.

Re:ff7

[voice_of_all_reason]

I'd love to give FF5 a shot, but I'm not willing to play the PlayStation port - I've tried, the loading times are too extreme. If they ever get around to releasing it on a Nintendo console (GBA, DS, Wii), then I'll give it another go. Screw Sony and their massive load times.)

Ahm... I hear there's video games on the... uh... internets...

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

For instance, now I see that oldschool FF fans have a definition for "villain" that states "someone who blows a lot of shit up and kills people." Motive, personality, or anything else apparently doesn't enter into it.

Since when did Sephiroth have personality? His "motive" was, essentially, "I want to blow shit up" and he did a really poor job of it. Kefka's motive was to rule the world and cause human missery, and he succeeded at it. Kefka has a character - he's a completely insane sadist who seeks to become all-powerful. Sephiroth is just a whiney little brat who descides to destroy stuff after he discovers mommy lied to him. (Seriously.)

And as a bonus, you also give me a definition for "gameplay:" Bashing a button over and over again until the enemy dies.

No, that would be FF7+. In all previous FF games (although end-game FF6 came dangerously close to "mash attack") you had to decide which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies. Simply bashing Attack would guarentee you'd fail. You had to balance healing and magic use and special abilities to ensure success. You had to learn enemies' strengths and weaknesses. You had to discover how they would react to certain abilities. You had to think.

Starting with FF7, almost every battle could be completed by pounding Attack. Almost no strategy or thinking was required.

Re:ff7

[voice_of_all_reason]

The real problem with FF6 is that, at the end, the game sort of falls apart as they try to allow a more open-ended approach to RPGs, but just sort of fail.

Agreed. I don't know of any real solution to that problem, so I tend to like structured RPGs with post-game extras. No matter how tough you make high-level enemies, it's entirely possible to kill a few either deliberately (or by accidentally wandering into the area early) and screw up the difficulty curve.

Re:ff7

[Mattintosh]

Uhh... you haven't played FF6, have you?

FF4 was pretty lame in the villain department. Zemus/Zeromus hated Earthlings so he wanted to destroy them by using the power of the crystals or something. No backstory was given for why he hated them. So your criticism stands.

But FF6 is a different matter entirely. Kefka starts as a general in the Imperial army. The Empire is greedy for land and power (obviously, or it wouldn't be The Empire). So Kefka is already a powerful goon in the goon army. He's also a prick. So he hatches a plan to not only usurp the emperorship, but also to take over the world and rule it to his greedy ends. In the process, he "blows a lot of shit up and kills people". It also seems that he's mentally unstable, and by that, I mean that he's batshit-fucking-loco. All of this qualifies as both motive and personality.

As for gameplay, well, it's all about deciding what happens and when. FF6 is quite a bit less challenging than FF4 in this department. FF4 definitely had the best balance of any FF game. It was the first FF game that wasn't strictly turn-based, but had attack timers (the Active Time Battle system), and yet it hadn't degraded into the realm of FF6-and-up where by the end of the game every attack does 9999 damage. You actually could get to the end of the game and have your ass handed to you by the enemies you met wandering the final corridors of the game. And yet, every step of the way you were constantly getting it handed to you, so it wasn't a matter of the rest of the game being too easy. And my experiences are based on the US version, which is based on the Japanese "easytype" version! Now that's gameplay!

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

This fanboyism and weird love for FF7 is just another example of the rift between gamers who remember what games were like before Sony destroyed the industry by making it "cool" and gamers who remember their "first Playstation".

Oh, God, not this crap again. How many times is this chestnut going to get trotted out before someone finally decides to shoot it and turn it into glue?

I've played FF since it came out in 1990, and I still think that FF7, FF8, and FFX are superior to any of the ones previous. And if you really want me to measure my geek dick for you, I'll add that FF3 (that's the real FF3, not FF6) has the second-best gameplay of the entire FF series. I bet most of you so-called "true FF fans" haven't even played that game at all.

So stop it with that "only noobs like FF7" crap, it's not true.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Astarica]

If you mean FF4 revolutionary as in 'there was no complex RPG before' then in that sense in does define the genre. However just because there are no complex RPG before doesn't mean the first one gets a special pass. Mario is normally thought as the defining game for action platformers, but it is great not because it is merely the first one. It also happens to be the best one. In fact I'm pretty sure there's got to be some kind of action platformer before Mario, but none of them are as well-known as Mario because Mario was the best one. On the other hand, FF4-6 are very solid but does nothing to distinquish from other 'old school RPG' category. The fact that you can't say whether 4, 5, or 6 was best of the 'old school RPG' is a sign that all 3 games are very average (at least relative to each other). To be fair, an average Final Fantasy game is still a very good one, but they're not anything special. They tell a pretty straightforward, if not boring story, and they do it well. The battle system, music, gameplay, and everything else are all very good. It does not strive for perfection and maybe not even excellence, but it is a very good game.

FF7 is revolutionary. Technically because it's the 'first' 3D RPG in the same sense Mario is the first action platformer. It was far more ambitious in the story department than any game before it, to the point that it is responsible for the 'story that does not possibly make any sense' genre (ironically FF7's story does make sense, it's just hopelessly complicated). It is a special game, for better or worse, which is why it is remembered by the masses. The game tried to changing the RPG genre and I don't know if it succeeded, but the earlier FFs did not even try.

Re:ff7

[rjhubs]

Are you serious? [quote]when everything else sucked and plot is not taken seriously in a RPG[/quote] Storyline was the only thing that could sell RPGs in the days before 'awesome cutscene graphics'. People certainly weren't buying them for nonstop action. FFVI did not center around one central whiny guy who had trouble talking to women (which is why i presume FFVII relates to so many gamers) but rather FFVI develops 12 main characters! FFX does have a good story, if you forget about the dismal ending. You make claims like FF7 and FFX are revolutionary, but provide no examples. Perhaps only that they were the first FF on each respective system (PSX and PS2). Revolutionary was the Job system in FFIII or Espers system in FFVI (which materia then expands upon) And you can't compare sales numbers between the two titles as gaming scene was tremendously different. It was not even conceivable to sell 2.5 million copies in a weekend of any game during snes days. Gaming exploded with the playstation/n64 releases. As far as game sales go, FFVI did very well for a snes game. And yeah FFIV is good too.. minus kain.

Re:ff7

[Astarica]

Kefka was simply insane. Sometimes simplicity is good, but Kefka is most definitely not a complicated character. FF4 has stricter level-based requirements than most RPG now (especially compared to FFs). If you're not at a certain level (around 60) Rydia can't survive a Big Bang no matter what which means you'll be down one healer for the last battle right away. The game paces well for a Final Fantasy game, but part of it comes from the system being much simpler than all the later ones so there aren't cheap loopholes to be exploited. It's also one of the last FF where you not only constantly need to use your MP out of necessity in the regular battles, but also have no way of easily replenishing them so you actually have to budget your MP carefully, but not to be so stingy that you don't make it to the end.

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

Since when did Sephiroth have personality?

Never meant to imply that Sephiroth had a great personality, just that it was far better than Kefka's "HOLY SHIT I'M CRAZY" spiel.

His "motive" was, essentially, "I want to blow shit up"

Incorrect. Sephiroth had a strong and clear reason for doing what he did, relating to issues with his birth and heritage. Kefka, on the other hand, was just insane. Not insane for any particular reason that would relate to the plot, just insane.

In all previous FF games (although end-game FF6 came dangerously close to "mash attack") you had to decide which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies.

Until FF12, FF3 and FF4 were the only ones that really ever tried to go beyond button-mashing in battle. The other early FFs, especially FF2 and FF5, were just as much about button mashing and just as little about "deciding which characters and which abilities to use on which enemies" as any of the later FFs.

Still, though, you don't seem to understand that gameplay goes beyond the battle screen. Take FF8, for example. It's true that FF8's battle system is all about button-mashing, but the Junction system combined with item refining, the card game, and so forth give the gameplay overall a much greater depth than in any FF before or since.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

Kefka starts as a general in the Imperial army. The Empire is greedy for land and power (obviously, or it wouldn't be The Empire). So Kefka is already a powerful goon in the goon army. He's also a prick. So he hatches a plan to not only usurp the emperorship, but also to take over the world and rule it to his greedy ends. In the process, he "blows a lot of shit up and kills people". It also seems that he's mentally unstable, and by that, I mean that he's batshit-fucking-loco.

OK. Why is Kefka a prick? Why is he mentally unstable? Why does he want to take over the world other than the fact that taking over the world makes him powerful? What distinguishes him from all of the other cookie-cutter villains in all of the Silver Age comic-books of the world?

I'm going to head the only possible counter-argument off at the pass: In the game, it's actually shown that Kefka was made insane due to an experimental technique in Magitek infusion. But it's left to be explained how this motivates Kefka to take over the world and kill a lot of people (even crazy people have a motivation to do things beyond "I'm crazy"), nor how the circumstances of his insanity affect our understanding of his character in any meaningful way.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

FFVI develops 12 main characters!

FSVO "develops." In reality, FF6 doesn't develop any of them in any way beyond the cliche. Of course, you could say the same thing about FF7, with the very arguable exception of Cloud.

And FF7 certainly was revolutionary (or perhaps "influential" is a better word). Before it came out, the console RPG was very much a niche genre in the West, even considering the lower sales of games back then. Now-a-days it's the most popular genre behind the old standbys of sports and action. And then there's the fact that it was the first 3D console RPG of note, just like SM64 was the first 3D platformer of note.

Rob

Re:ff7

[arodland]

If you didn't understand 7's story, there are two problems with you.

The first is that you don't speak Japanese. Okay, I can't blame you for that, but it means that the localization team screwed you over. The original story team can't be blamed for the things that were mangled or glossed over in the English version.

The second is that you simply didn't pay enough attention to detail. Everything is in there somewhere. There are people who have paid the requisite attention, and come up with complete, satisfying answers to essentially every question. The Ultimania Omega guide and the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII provide further insights.

That said, it's a good story. It's deep. Everything has a purpose, all of the characters are valuable, and all of them grow. The execution was imperfect, due to various technical and financial issues, but that's true of everything. If you're able to realize that and look at what the game was really trying to be, it's an amazing thing. VI is also pretty good in this regard, but as other people have mentioned, the story sort of unravels halfway in. Amazingly, FFX is right up there in terms of "depth of story", but a lot of people don't realize it, because it's stealth story. You can easily play the game without noticing half of the things that go on. Maybe it's just because you fell asleep during the 20-minute FMV segments ;)

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put: Lust for Power. Not every story has to be twisted and convoluted with hard to understand characters. Kefka was insane because of the Magitek experiment but it also left him with a taste of power. This taste of power gave him cravings for more power. Every action he performed, no matter how inhumane, was for more power.

Personally, I liked Kefka as a villian because he was a consistent and prevalent annoyance/threat throughout the entire game. You got to see all of his evil act first hand and most of the time you were unable to stop him. Kefka started off as an annoying, crazy character that you couldn't kill to a serious threat to the planet.

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

Not every story has to be twisted and convoluted with hard to understand characters.

You're right, but that fact doesn't make Kefka a good villain, or even a mediocre one. I'm not saying that Kefka should be hard to understand, simply that there should be something to understand.

Kefka was insane because of the Magitek experiment but it also left him with a taste of power. This taste of power gave him cravings for more power.

A reasonable theory, but there's no explanation for what makes power so enticing to him, or why he uses it to the ends that he does.

Rob

Re:ff7

[rock_climbing_guy]

If you really want your ass handed to you, download and play ff3j. nuff said

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's power, dipshit. What more reason do you want?! He wants to become stronger, more powerful. He wants to control everything. He seeks to dominate the world.

Which is, it's worth noting, almost EXACTLY the same as Sephiroth's "motivation" for anything in FF7. (Why is Sephy destroying stuff? 'Cause his REAL mommy did, and he's a big mommy's boy.)

It's just that Kefka actually achieves his goals, while Sephiroth has long silver hair and looks pretty.

Re:ff7

[Astarica]

FF4 is the last FF game to requires you to use more than 4 characters while also attempting to develop them (FF5 only used 4 not counting Kara). Your party goes through about 10 guys and all of those guys, in theory, have something to do with the game and you get to use them when they're relevant. It is really hard to take character development seriously when you see Barret pop up and say something at the end, and you're thinking "I haven't used this guy since Disc 1 because I didn't like him." This applies to 6-9, though 10 tries to make you feel at least all those guys are supposed to be doing something with the semi-mandatory character switcharoo combat system.

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

Tried that, my translation patch crapped out about 4 cities in.

Now I'm buying a DS Lite and the DS version when it comes out here in a few months.

Re:ff7

[dasunt]

You're right, but that fact doesn't make Kefka a good villain, or even a mediocre one. I'm not saying that Kefka should be hard to understand, simply that there should be something to understand.

Well, Kefka volunteered to be infused with Magitek -- IIRC, he was the first one to volunteer. I suspect that he had a lust for power before the infusion (since he volunteered), but the Magitek experiment pushed him over the edge. OTOH, maybe he something like this planned before the infusion: It is never stated if he was a general before or after the experiment. However, the other magitek knight (Celes) was also a general, so perhaps the volunteers came from the upper ranks. That would suggest that Kefka was seeking power before the infusion.

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

Because it's power, dipshit. What more reason do you want?!

Maybe a reason that actually means something? Everybody wants power. But people want power for different reasons. The reason why Kefka wants power (and the reason he blows things up) isn't specified anywhere.

Which is, it's worth noting, almost EXACTLY the same as Sephiroth's "motivation" for anything in FF7. (Why is Sephy destroying stuff? 'Cause his REAL mommy did, and he's a big mommy's boy.)

Might be a good idea to actually be right before you make claims like this. His motivation has nothing to do with the fact that Jenova (who isn't even Sephiroth's "mommy") destroyed things. In fact, he doesn't even know that Jenova was responsible for what happened before. The reason why Sephiroth does what he does is because he's been fooled into thinking that he and Jenova were the last of the Cetra, and that the human race was responsible for wiping out the Cetra instead of Jenova herself.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Jurrasic]

Have to throw in my nerd-2c here. Kefka went insane due to the imperfect 'magitek fusion' procedure that he was the first to volunteer for, the process of fusing esper energy to the human mind was poorly understood, and failures in the first attempt caused Kefka to go batshit insane bit by bit. This was mentioned in the plotline, just not strongly played up. I tell you what tho, I never dreaded what was going to happen next in a console RPG as much as when I heard the kefka 'giggle' off screen and knew bad shit was about to go down. Sephiroth in comparison was a whiney emo-fag with a crush on Cloud, he was a third rate villian at best.

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

> Never meant to imply that Sephiroth had a great personality, just that it was far better than Kefka's "I'M CRAZY" spiel.

Kefka was the first magitek knight (you know, like Celes & General Leo, only their procedures worked). The procedure for infusing him with magic went wrong, and his mind became unstable. Sephiroth fused with JENOVA and, umm, became mentally unstable. Your point? For completeness, in IV, Zemus/Zeromus wanted to wipe out everyone so that Lunarians could colonize the planet rather than hibernating on the damn moon forever, and in V, X-Death just wanted to get out of the damn seal he'd been stuck in by the original four warriors and resume taking over the world. Lust for power is too common, honestly, to need much further motive.

Anyhow, I still prefer FF V's battle system. Oh, and being that I'm the same AC that replied to you elsewhere, I'd like to point out that I *do* understand FF VII's backstory, including the reasons for Cloud's amnesia and dual-personality (the whole Zack/Cloud thing).

I do wish that they'd get over the whole Gaia/nuclear power fable bit, though. I mean, on some level, they told the same story many times over in IV-VII, only they only really managed to screw things over thoroughly in VI.

Re:ff7

[rock_climbing_guy]

I tried about 8 semesters of Japanese and a dictionary at my side the whole time. Here's the kicker: The game gets progressively harder as you progress, and the class system is similiar to FF5. The thing is, once you enter the last dungeon, which I will not spoil for you here since you intend to get the DS version, there are no save points and you cannot leave. Imagine FF8 being that there were no save points inside Ultimecia's castle. It takes several hours to get from the last save point to the end of the game and lots of places to die along the way.

I think it's likely to change in the DS version, and if it does, remember what I told you about the original version. I only reached the final fight one time. I got so fed up with the thing that I deleted my saved game to avoid more frustration and wasted time.

Re:ff7

[Rustybutterknife]

I agree that Kefka and Golbez/Zemus (and even more so X-Death) aren't especially deep characters. Their motivations for doing what they do are pretty simple, but the characters can be interesting if they do interesting things, regardless of how simple or complex their motive for doing so might be. Iago from Othello is a classic example of this. The guy was just passed over for a promotion in lieu of an untested lietenant... but becomes the evocation of pure evil and deceit. His motive is simple: revenge, but his method of carrying it out is interesting. OTOH, none of what these villains do is really that interesting, either. The storyline and characters of both is relatively simple compared to FF7, 8 or X. FF4 and 6 are still fun games from the standpoint of gameplay challenge (FF4 to a much greater extent) and of presentation, (FF6 to a somewhat greater extent) however.

Re:ff7

[7Prime]

FF7 is revolutionary. Technically because it's the 'first' 3D RPG in the same sense Mario is the first action platformer.

For one thing, that's flatout wrong. There were several 3D RPGs before FF7: Wild Arms 1, for starters. Now, I'm not going to compare these two, they're totally different, and I would agree that FF7 comes out on top, but saying that it's revolutionary is a bit of a stretch. If you step back from graphics, though, FF7 hardly does anything more than FF6 did, it just does it with a bit more flash and flare, and a bit more cliche. I would argue that FF6 has much better dialog (granted, some of that due to a bad translation on the part of Square's localizers, for FF7), and more flushed out character personalities. FF7 trades character personality for backstory, which I think is an inferior direction to take. FF7s characters are also much more archetypical. FF7s events are also less applicable than FF6s, they constantly relly on completely fantasy/sci-fi factors, where-as, more often then not, FF6s fantasy elements are far more applicable to day to day existance. In it's ability to create a compelling narrative, with flushed out characters you can actually empethize with, at a time in which even the most advanced RPGs were composed of completely archetypical personas, FF6 stands to be the far more revolutionary game. Sure, the sprite-based graphics may be deciving, but I think of FF6 as, quite possibly, the first moddern console RPG, the first truely great one.

Now, in terms of game design, and architecture, FF6 is a 3D game as well, it just was forced to use 2D graphics because of the technology at the time. You can totally feel the developers struggling to get every ounce of their vision out with the hardware they have... which is why, sometimes, you get god-aweful side-effects, like the mine cart ride. All the houses and buildings are laid out in very concise 3D models, with nooks and crannies you may find yourself walking behind, all the time... unfortunately, the SNES had only the most basic polygon rendering engine (who's extent can be seen in things like the spinning triforce in LttP). I've always hoped that they would redo FF6 in the 3D glory that its creators hoped to be able to give their vision. Partially for their own sake (and for ours), and partially so ignorant fools like you would open your eyes and realize that the holy church of FF7 is nothing but a minor tweak of FF6.

Now, that said, FF7 is a fine game that I hold very dear, but it is greatly overshadowed by the ingenuity and deapth of both games on either side of it.

Re:ff7

[Spooon69]

I guess Final Fantasy has now joined the ranks of "I'm l33t if I hate the new and praise the older classic versions", along with Star Wars and Weezer. But then again, the new Star Wars did kinda suck...

Re:ff7

[John Courtland]

Ah FF3. I was in the final castle, I'd estimate 10 minutes away from the last dude, and my buddy came over one night and magically killed the computer. I never picked it back up. I did preorder it for the DS though. Here's hoping that it's the same game just with updated graphics.

Re:ff7

[ElleyKitten]

[in ff3's last dungeon]there are no save points and you cannot leave. Imagine FF8 being that there were no save points inside Ultimecia's castle.

Or if you couldn't leave Ultimecia's castle, because you can.

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

> Zemus/Zeromus hated Earthlings so he wanted to destroy them by using the power of the crystals or something. No backstory was given for why he hated them.

Wrong! The Lunarians wanted to colonize Earth, but the people there weren't ready for them, so they decided to hibernate on the moon (except for Cecil/Golbez' dad). Zemus/Zeromus got pissed off at having to stay in hibernation all that time, and so he used Golbez to attempt to destroy the world with the power of the crystals so that Lunars could take it over.

Did you skip through FuSoYa's speeches or something? :-)

Re:ff7

[Pluvius]

Kefka was the first magitek knight (you know, like Celes & General Leo, only their procedures worked). The procedure for infusing him with magic went wrong, and his mind became unstable. Sephiroth fused with JENOVA and, umm, became mentally unstable. Your point?

I've already addressed this point elsewhere in the thread.

For completeness, in IV, Zemus/Zeromus wanted to wipe out everyone so that Lunarians could colonize the planet rather than hibernating on the damn moon forever, and in V, X-Death just wanted to get out of the damn seal he'd been stuck in by the original four warriors and resume taking over the world.

Yes, I'll freely admit that Kefka is a better villain than either of those two. Of course, a chihuahua in a tutu would be a better villain than either of those two. Zemus (as opposed to Zeromus, which was just "absolute evil" and came out of friggin' nowhere) did at least have a reasonable motive, but besides that he's a cipher, an absentee villain, letting Golbez do everything interesting up to the end. And Ex-Death just blew.

Rob

Re:ff7

[Mattintosh]

I've played a translated ROM version of it, and I just finished up the bit where you get the 3rd airship (you destroy them like you're James Fricking Bond in that game). I quit playing when I couldn't find the time to play. I figure I'll pick it back up and finish it one of these days.

Though it didn't seem very hard to me, others have said this is the most difficult FF ever. I'd be inclined to believe them if I weren't so good at mapping out how memory is used by old console games. You know, stuff like 06FB = 1A to keep my lead party character from getting poisoned, petrified, or zombified, and to keep me floating, hasted, and regenning. (No, that's not really a functional mapping, and at 06xx on the NES, it's more likely to be a hard stat like Agility or Max HP than a fight stat like poison.) And freeze-states tend to make everything easier too.

If I find the time to finish it, I won't need to remember what you said about that version. I'll experience it firsthand, though without the as much difficulty overcoming it.

Re:ff7

[Anonymous Coward]

I hasten to add that FF6 couldn't have been what it was without the groundwork that FF4 put in place in terms of the ATB, the distinguishing special commands for each character, a story of personal transformation, love affairs, and so on. For the record, I have completed FF4, FF6, FF7, and played a significant portion of FF1, FF5, FF8, FF10. Some comments:

FF1: The original, still charming and worthwhile to play.
FF4: I think of this as a "simplified" version of FF6, but with a better
          story, cool plot devices, good replay value, lots of "worlds" to explore,
          and a pretty good endgame. Reaching the "land of monsters" was one of my
          favorite videogame experiences ever. What it lacks compared to FF6 is the
          huge cast of characters, flexibility in the choice of party, and of
          course some of the newer technology. Notable endgame features: pink
          puffs, adamant armor, various "hidden" or guarded armor in the final
          dungeon, and leveling Rydia up to where she can cast Meteo (lvl 60).
FF5: Lots and lots of classes. Characters were interchangable, and weren't
          very memorable. The story failed to capture my interest. Seemed like a
          concept game rather than a serious attempt at a complete title.
FF6: More complex than FF4, but fewer "worlds", more characters, and the
          espers made the characters much more interchangable, especially in the
          endgame. Endgame could amount to just leveling everyone to 99, which
          wasn't even that difficult to accomplish. The added complexity,
          abundance of (even secret!) characters and better graphics made it more
          enjoyable than FF4 overall.
FF7: Only one world to explore, cartoony 3d graphics, cool limit breaks,
          reasonably well-conceived characters, an okay boss (although obvious
          that he will be the boss from the beginning...), beginning of the
          ridiculous summoning sequence movies (which, while cool, were sometimes
          too long). Endgame consists of beating ridiculously easy final boss,
          and then going after the "weapons", which is a good challenge. The
          endgame "ends" after that, though. Backstory is okay, character
          development of Cloud is okay, but sorely lacking for the other
          characters. Battle music was pretty good and notably my first mp3
          before most people had heard of mp3s, and certainly before Napster/RIAA
          got involved... winamp didn't exist yet, and the shareware player I used
          consumed at least 50% of the cycles on my 75 MHz Pentium :-)
FF8: More realistic graphics, less cartoony. Very cool/original system for
          upgrading characters. Good atmosphere, interesting characters. As far
          as I know only one world. Oh, and good opening sequence.
FF10: Fantastic graphics, interesting story. No characters were particularly
            memorable. The monsters were unimpressive. Blitzball seemed stupid to
            me. I found the upgrade system for the characters to be confusing at
            first, and then frustrating. Oh, and no free roaming the overworld!
            Blasphemy!

In terms of overall enjoyment (left is best, right is worst):
FF6 > FF4 > FF1 > FF7 > FF5 > FF8 > FF10

conFused

[neonprimetime]

Final Fantasy IV Turns XV

In non-mathematics major terms : Final Fantasy 9 Turns 15

Re:conFused

[lexarius]

IV = 4, not 9.

Re:conFused

[siegesama]

Math majors don't give a fuck about roman numerals. And IV is 4, not 9.

Re:conFused

[Dionysos Taltos]

Final Fantasy IV Turns XV

In non-mathematics major terms : Final Fantasy 9 Turns 15

Final Fantasy 4 Turns 15

hey, brain farts happen to the best of us.

Re:conFused

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it was Final Fantasy In The Hospital or something...

Re:conFused

[Canthros]

You haven't lived until you've played Quake intravenously.

Re:conFused

[rjhubs]

IV is 4 you idiot!!! oh wait.. did i miss the joke?

Re:conFused

[neonprimetime]

did i miss the joke?

Even I missed the joke, and I was the one that wrote it! Just label me pathetic.

Re:conFused

[Synic]

Since when is swearing a "troll" ? Jesus, bunch of pansies, the lot of you.

Re:conFused

[Anonymous Coward]

If you end up swearing in a comment, it probably means the entire comment was written in a trollish style. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Re:conFused

[blahplusplus]

And here I thought it was 15 turns 105 silly me!

Children's Television doesn't work anymore?

[RumGunner]

I may have a minor in math, but it wasn't college that taught me my roman numerals; it was Square One Television.

Re:Children's Television doesn't work anymore?

[Hotawa Hawk-eye]

Kids in the future will learn them from the Simpsons, specifically the episode "Lemon of Troy" in season 6. Roman numerals?! They never even tried to teach us that in school.... OK, think, Bart. Where have you seen Roman numerals before? I know: Rocky V. That was the fifth one! So, Rocky 5 [points to V], plus Rocky 2 [points to II], equals Rocky 7 [points to VII], Adrian's Revenge!

Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[Anonymous Coward]

If by plot emphasis you mean "Taking your hand and guiding you, through numerous superflouous cutscenes, along a trite and cliché'd storyline that could have been written by an emo high school student".

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[Pluvius]

I don't think I've heard a more perfect description of FF6's storyline in my life.

Rob

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[Anonymous Coward]

You're unfairly minimizing the complexity of the storylines. I mean, the main character is a young man...who hates his father! He sort of likes a girl...but doesn't know how to tell her! And he thinks he's been doing the right thing...but he's been doing the wrong thing all along. And even though he's a badass, which you can tell by his spiky hair and his implausibly large sword, he's sensitive... he cries a whole lot, way more than the female characters, who are all so tough that they fight evil in anime fanservice outfits. And OMG, major characters die, sometimes after as little as 3 hours of foreshadowing cutscenes- we're talking about out-of-the-blue shocks! And chocobos! All in all, the storylines in the later FF games are deep as hell- I mean like Shakespeare raised to the power of Tolstoy levels of depth!

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[BlackCobra43]

I don't think I've ever read a dumber comment in my life - and I browse at -1!

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[voice_of_all_reason]

He sort of likes a girl...but doesn't know how to tell her!

Not really the same, because they're married already (or at least common-law or something). A better translation hints that Cecil and Rosa have been sleeping together on a long-term basis.

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[voice_of_all_reason]

he cries a whole lot, way more than the female characters

Never mind the pair of small children in your party for a good part of the game.

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[ElleyKitten]

All in all, the storylines in the later FF games are deep as hell

It's amusing how you describe the later FFs, yet you might as well be talking about FF4 for all your responses assume you are anyways.

Square needs to break their stupid mold. I like FFs, but I'm sick of playing some whiney boy pining over some mage girl.

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[walnutmon]

Listen man, it is NOT some whiny boy pining over some mage girl... it is usually a set of mage girls pining over some whiny boy...

You obviously don't play any final fantasy games

Re:Oh yeah, tons of plot emphasis in FF7-on

[ElleyKitten]

All the girls from FF7 through 10 cannot match the whineyness that is Tidus.

Most Compelling Set of Characters

[Pacifist Brawler]

The one thing that I thought was really good in FFIV was that the characters were given reasonable motives and grew in hard to predict but reasonable ways. I don't think you get that in many other FF games -- FFIX and FFX try, but I think that FFIV might have had the best character development.

Even if you disagree, it certainly had the best ninja-sorceress love affair ;P

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[voice_of_all_reason]

Rydia was closer to a necromancer than a sorceress (excluding her black magic tree).

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[IAstudent]

Second that. Strangely enough, I found myself drawn more to FFIV than FFVI for several reasons.

FFVI's story might have been more grandiose, but after the first half it just tappered off into individual story lines. There's nothing wrong with gaining insight on your individual character's struggles, but FFIV's story seemed more concise throughout the whole game.

Also, while FFVI does have possibly the best RPG villian of all time (I will give it that cred), it was easy to see from a mile away that the rest of the game would lead to him. FFIV had that charm with its behind the scenes-maniuplator-unknown-till the last part of the game.

In reference to storyline, FFIV just held for me a greater sense of exploration. Caves, underworlds, 100 foot towers, robotic innards, and of course, going to the mooooooooooonnnnnnnn!

Then look at weapons. FFVI had the Atma Weapon. Nice, a glorified lightsaber, ho hum. FFIV had the spoon dagger, c'mon! If you thought those Guiness guys made silverware deadly, you haven't seen a ninja utilize untensils like Roger Clemmens.

Finally there was the difficulty. FFIV had restricted characther roles, yes, but it also made you utilize each character to their own unique strengths to win the toughest battles. By the time you reach FFVI's conclusion, with enough cactaurs you could Ultima every danged thing into nonexistance.
 
/END comparison

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[NonSequor]

I prefer the Locke/Celes subplot from FF6.

Speaking of which, I've always thought that someone should write an opera based on FF6. The libretto practically writes itself and the game's score could be adapted for an opera.

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[PhoenixFlare]

By the time you reach FFVI's conclusion, with enough cactaurs you could Ultima every danged thing into nonexistance.

I always found it fun turn Mog into a killing machine - between his equipment and stats after killing countless dinosaurs, I was able to get to Kefka and annhiliate him with no help after deliberately murdering the other party members.

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[rjhubs]

FFIV is great, minus Kain, there is no rhyme or reason why he keeps switching sides.

Re:Most Compelling Set of Characters

[Anonymous Coward]

Supposedly Golbez was using some mind-control power over Kain, which would make sense given what we learn later in the game...

and let's face it: Kain was what made everyone want to be a Dragoon :-)
I survived several fierce battles just with his ability to avoid being hit while in the air. The rest of my party was "swooned" when he landed the blow that won the battle.

FF4 is the best.

[Maul]

FF4 (the real version) is the best in the series, in my opinion.

It is difficult without being ridiculously so. The boss enemies are tough, and you don't have ridiculous limit breaks or way overpowered summons to do the job for you (FF4 summons are weak compared to those in the later games, IMO).

It has some of the best characters, remembered by their personalities and character development, not their outlandish character designs like Cloud & Co. It had a reasonable plot that was actually completed and not rushed, and an ending that made sense.

Such a good game

[marcybots]

I was waiting for something to happen in Elder Scrolls oblivion due to the day night cycle (somehow that makes the game more fun.....:( and started playing Final Fantasy IV advance. I played IV for an hour and never played oblivion again, Final fantasy IV is such a good game, and the combat system is so much better than any straight up role playing game I have played lately, its worth celebrating as far as I am concerned, run out and buy the new GBA version of this, it has a bunch of new content in it after you beat the game.

Re:Such a good game

[The Snowman]

Yeah, FF4 had a simple combat system that was actually quite nice. I just hated the long cutscenes all the time. Story is fine, but at least let me skip it if I've already seen it. It got to the point where I'd just hit the turbo button to advance the dialog while I went off and did something else.

The Economizer

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing like an item that made EVERY magic spell in the game cost 1 MP.

Who gives a fuck

[Anonymous Coward]

Quit mooning over ancient games.

Fucking nerds, I'll off shore all of you.

Re:Who gives a fuck

[Mijion]

16bit games are better then the newest games, they put more time into the story line. I don't buy games just for the graphics.

Aeris

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoilers to old video games below. If you know *anything* about FF, you already know all of this, however, unless you've lived under a rock:

Aeris alone is probably the main reason they loved FF VII. Yes, FF IV and V both had a main party member die on you (Tellah was the only one to actually *die* in IV--the rest get revived by the Mysidian elder, even Palom, Porom & Yang, but Galuf and all the old gang of four die off in V), but only in VII was it someone like Aeris.

By which I mean, of course, the main love interest of the main character. Otherwise, the storyline is full of holes they've only recently made any attempt to fill in and it *still* makes little sense, except as a thinly-disguised anti-nuclear, pro-gaia environmentalist fable, and such things are a dime a dozen given what I see coming out of Japan.

Anyhow, yeah, I like the materia system, but I still liked the story of FF VI best, the mechanics of FF V best, and thought that I & VII were quality games that only seem great due to nostalgia. Honestly, I like the graphics of VI better than the clunky 3D of VII, and I feel like they've been reigning in just how much freedom you have to choose how you want to complete the game ever since VII. Of course, no Final Fantasy game can ever compete with Chrono Trigger on that one. I'm still amazed at that game's clever storytelling and how well they kept things consistant across variant timelines. Not to mention the fact that you could actually lose something if you screwed up and didn't fix things before the ending ...

And FF II and III? Yeah, they weren't bad, depending on which translation you got, but the mechanics of II drove me nuts (let's use sword 100 times to level it up!) and I simply didn't like how classes worked in III as compared to V, but that may not be fair to them, because I played most of the later games before I played II and III.

Re:Aeris

[Pluvius]

Aeris alone is probably the main reason they loved FF VII.

Not me. I was actually kind of glad when she died. The main reason why I like FF7 more than most of the other FFs is because of its story. You can talk about plotholes all you want (and I'd say that most of them probably come from your own weak understanding of the plot), and the translation was pretty bad, but at least it tried to have a storyline that went beyond the utter simplicity of the games that came before it. Even today FF7 deals with the issue of identity better than most other video games.

As for Chrono Trigger, it deserves a lot more credit than both it and the early FFs get.

Rob

Re:Aeris

[Astarica]

FF7's plot is probably needlessly complicated, but after you get past the artificial complexity, everything fits together pretty well. However it does get the stigma for starting the 'nothing possibly make sense' genre. I realize you shouldn't fault a game because other games tried to copy it and screwed it up, but FF7 almost single-handed changed the plot we get in RPG from overly simplistic to borderline nonsensical, and I rather have a simplistic plot than one that doesn't make sense.

Re:Aeris

[Anonymous Coward]

And what do you get when you put the two together?? Final Fantasy Mystic Quest!!

Should FFIV be remade...again?

[dhh8088]

With all the experience and resources now available to Square, I don't see why a fully 3D-rendered remake of the old-school series would be out of the question. The PSX versions were OK and all (about friggin time I got to use D.wave), but not quite what I was expecting. Is there anyone else who would like to see IV and VI fully "modernized"?

Re:Should FFIV be remade...again?

[Pluvius]

I'd much rather see FF3 (because it's the one early FF that's really worth playing now-a-days) and FF7 (because it's currently an eyesore) modernized. And that's exactly what Square is doing with FF3, while FF7 has a pretty good chance of being upgraded eventually.

Rob

The Point

[Rydia]

A lot of people miss the point of why FFIV was so great.

Complicated situation re: villian? Check.
Complicated relationships with multiple party members (other than angsty crap)? Check.
Good balance between different characters (a huge rarity in FF post-IV)? Check.
Good music? Check.

There are also a few VERY important things that FFIV did that others mostly do not:

Tie the characters around the story (class change as plot device, the designers' ability to create dungeons with a set party in mind).
It was an pretty good bit of technological workmanship, considering it was almost wholely designed for the NES.
First to do ATB.
ATB.
ATB.
Did I mention Active Time Battle?

People talk about how "deep" the newer RPGs are compared to the older ones. This is completely untrue. People often confuse "depth" with complexity, and say that either something is deep being it is overly complex, or because the writer hides the ball. One need only look to shakespeare to show that it is quality, not quantity or complexity, of character that makes a good plot. FFIV didn't have overly complex characters, nor massive amounts of dialogue to flesh them out, but the game used every bit that it did to create quality characters that worked well off each other.

Cheers, FFIV. Still the best.

Re:The Point

[oc255]

A while ago, I decided to play through the series. Since I was a late-bloomer, FF7 was my first RPG ever. I'm up to FF4 (I picked the GBA version) now and my question is, what is up with Edward?

Bard: Fine.
His ability to hide when HP is low: what?

Is this character development to show how lame he is? Or is this accidental? Can anyone comment without spoiling anything?

Re:The Point

[Rydia]

It is pretty demonstrative of his character. However, in FFIVa, hide does have its uses. There are a few monsters, for instance, that have timed attacks, and Edward can simply hide to avoid them and then show and continue attacking. Also, after completing his trial Edward recieves a very nice command that uses shell and protect on everyone. Still nowhere near as good as some others (you can look at my nick to figure out whom) but not completely useless anymore.

Re:The Point

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, Edward is a wuss. It would be funny as hell to see what he could do at high levels, though. I wonder how much damage he can do with just a harp ;-)