Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Now You're Thinking With Portals

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the if-at-first-you-don't-succeed-you-fail dept.

Valve's got a new game in the works, and it's quite the mind-bender. Portal is a puzzle/FPS hybrid that will utilize holes in space to do the impossible. From the Ars Technica post: "That video makes my brain hurt in all the right ways. The set up and voice-over are both hilarious, and at first it seemed rudimentary to me. Then everything goes crazy and you start to realize just how much you can do with this technology. I'm looking forward to seeing fan-made videos hit the 'Net with all the insane stunts and tricks you can pull off. This seems to be one of those games that you'll have as much fun playing with the game as you do simply playing through it." This is a title definitely worth checking out for yourself.

38 of 171 comments (clear)

  1. A DigiPen Game by rizzuh · · Score: 5, Informative

    Portal is based on a game called Narbacular Drop that was developed by a group of seniors at the DigiPen Institute of Technology. Valve ended up contracting the entire programming team to work on Portal. It's interesting to see how a game school's relatively small-time project has become front-page news on dozens of gaming sites.

    1. Re:A DigiPen Game by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I just played that game. It's the same general idea as Portal will use, so it's fun to play around with the physics and all before the game comes out.

      One fun thing to do is shoot a blue portal in the ceiling, a red one in the floor, and then fall though in an infinite loop thing... and then as you fall shoot a blue portal in a wall, you go flying out like in the Portal trailer. I used it to get over a lava pit (I think it might have not been the correct solution, but it was fun. :)

    2. Re:A DigiPen Game by usrusr · · Score: 2, Informative

      there's a simple answer: input/ouput portals are not first/secondary fire, but are even/uneven "shots".

      so a situation where an "input" exists without an output does not occur.

      you should also note that the video displays traditional hl2 "grav gun" functionality too, so it's probably like this: primary: make in/out portals, secondary: grip/release with grav gun (or switched)

      --
      [i have an opinion and i am not afraid to use it]
    3. Re:A DigiPen Game by RoadDoggFL · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is no "input" or "output" portal. At the end of the video it shows an item (a turret?) "bouncing" out of two turrets next to each other on the floor. Both as input, both as output. But a single portal acting as a brick wall makes sense.

      --
      "This is considered plagiarism."
  2. Narbacular Drop by SB5 · · Score: 4, Informative

    This game is based off of "Narbacular Drop". The guy that made "Narbacular Drop" got hired to Valve, and went on to make this.

    Lots of people keep calling it a "Prey" ripoff, whether his idea came from "Prey" or not, its a completely different game imho.

    --
    If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
    it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
    1. Re:Narbacular Drop by webrunner · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing people need to realise is that:
      - In Prey, portals are a new thing that level can do to the player
      - In Narbtacular Drop and Portal, portals are a new thing that the player can do to the level.

      --
      ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
    2. Re:Narbacular Drop by Mr2001 · · Score: 2, Informative

      With the right mods, players can "do" portals to levels in Prey too.

      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    3. Re:Narbacular Drop by webrunner · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, it's not in question that Prey -supports- the same kind of portal stuff as Portal, the same way that the DooM 3 engine -supports- physics simulation, but it's hl2 that really made it the focus of the game and a major gameplay element through the use of the gravity gun and physics puzzles.

      Doom 3 physics:half life 2 physics::Prey portals:Portal portals

      --
      ADVENTURERS! - ANTIHERO FOR HIRE - CARDMASTER CONFLICT
    4. Re:Narbacular Drop by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Informative
      Prey had 10 years to show off their portal tech. They couldn't do it.

      This is blatently incorrect. Prey DID show off their portal tech. (To just anyone and everyone they could!) What they couldn't do was make an actual game out of it. Cool tech, but it ended up being nothing more than a research project.

      Fast forward to the 21st century. Any game maker who wants to implement Portal Technology is going to study 2 examples. The first one is Descent's 360 degree engine. The second is the Prey portal technology that allowed worlds to collapse in on themselves. Once you understand how portals work (it's a bloody easy concept), creating those effects follows quite easily.

      So again, it's impossible to say that Portal and its predecessor were not influenced by Prey.
      --
      Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
    5. Re:Narbacular Drop by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Informative

      The idea of portals has been around for ages. Anyone who knows anything about 3D programming should know about the differences between Portals, Octrees, BSP trees, and so on.

      In fact, if I remember right, Duke Nukem 3D was played essentially as a portal system with all the limitations of Doom. For instance, I once made a fun level which had a long ramp/tunnel that sloped downwards, but otherwise went straight to an elevator, and you bring the elevator up and you're at the top of the ramp, even though the elevator was just taking you straight up.

      Another example was a secret level which was shaped like this (warning, ASCII art):

      _______
      | ___ |
      | |_| |
      |_____|

      Yeah, my ASCII art sucks. Anyway, like that -- square/donut shaped -- only bigger. The inner room was huge, the outer hallway was narrow, and in each of the four cardinal directions, there was an open doorway between them. Only the inner room was a completely different room depending on which door you were going through.

      In other words, because of the way Duke Nukem fakes 3D, you can think of it as if the outer hallway was a spiral ramp going down, and the four versions of the inner room were actually stacked on top of each other. It functioned that way except for one thing: the hallway was not sloped, and the inner rooms actually took up the same physical space.

      Hard to explain, really.

      Then, just for fun, they added these tubes in the middle room. Each tube was an invisible teleporter (obvious if you were looking for it) that would make you appear at the top of another room -- so basically, each room had a tube that lead downwards to each of the other rooms. And it was certainly conceivable that you could have that feedback loop of falling into the same teleporter repeatedly.

      Anyway, I realize this is new and very cool, especially to put it in the hands of the user. But portal technology is not actually that new -- in fact, it's quite old, almost as old as BSP itself. It usually doesn't work well except for wholly indoor environments, but it's certainly nice with a mix of other methods, so you can use the portals for things octrees simply can't do. If they're doing it right, though, the doorways in that game are possibly nothing but portals also, meaning it should be possible to walk through a doorway into a room and suddenly find yourself falling forwards...

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  3. I think my brain just snapped by twistedsymphony · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wow, I've played through Prey and the portals in that game really mess with your mind but being able to create portals at will certainly makes for some messed up stuff. Reminds me of the black circles they used to have in old cartoons were they'd just throw it in the ground or onto a wall and walk through.

    I'm curious how they plan to let you get yourself out of an infinite portal loop like a portal in the floor the drops from the ceiling back into the portal in the floor. etc. unless of course said portals are only good for X number of uses. Even still This one looks to be much cooler then the gravity gun.

    --
    Collector's Edition
    1. Re:I think my brain just snapped by p0tat03 · · Score: 2, Informative

      From the video the solution is quite simple.

      The portal-gun looks like it will only allow 2 portals to exist at once (one leading to the other), so to break a loop you just fire your gun anywhere else, and the first portal created will disappear and be replaced by the new one.

    2. Re:I think my brain just snapped by Vo0k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Create an exit portal leading up and an entrance one in the ceiling. Tricky (timing) but possible. Again law of conservation of energy is violated but in opposite direction. Or trivial if the game ignores damage of hitting the ceiling - most games cause fall damage if you actually -fall- but hitting the ceilings at huge speeds (or grabbing ladders while falling really fast or such) doesn't cause any damage. Anyway, given enough room you can do wonders about losing speed.

      More interesting would be to create an infinite loop and fill it with rockets. Lots of rockets flying in straight line continuously. Then reopen the exit portal in front of an enemy.

      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
  4. Meep, meep! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reminds me of the ACME portable holes they used to have in the old Road Runner cartoons :-)

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  5. Gameplay by Tester · · Score: 4, Insightful

    its nice to see that some people are still working to improve gameplay with innovative ideas instead of just focusing on technological details (such as how exact and good looking the shadows are).

    Its all in the gameplay!

  6. Re:Original... by XenoRyet · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I was going to contradict you on that point, but Tycho over at Penny-Arcade is more elloquent than I, so I'll just quote him:

    "I've heard the ideas it presents dismissed as ripping off Prey, and if there is a more ignorant statement to be made regarding these two games it has yet to be discovered. Prey's portals aren't user created. What's more, they're used in a completely different way: Prey is a first-person shooter, while Portal is clearly... something else."
    --
    If forums teach us anything, it is that logic and critical thinking should be required courses in the public schools.
  7. The Middle Ground by steveo777 · · Score: 2, Funny
    Turok: Dinosaur Hunter


    Heck ya! Native american protagonist. Spirit mode. Futuristic levels. Lot's of portals. What more could you want?

    --
    This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
  8. Re:Original... by Phu5ion · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Looks to me like they saw Prey do it and wanted to do it too...

    Reading the description that was the first thing to pop in my mind too. But after seeing the video and some of the test they will put the player though, I think it will definately be able to set itself apart from Prey, think more puzzle and less FPS.

    --
    Slashdot is kind of like Playboy; we aren't here to read the articles.
  9. Even older than Prey... by Pfhorrest · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bungie's Marathon series used a portals-based (though still "2.5D") engine way back in the day, and there were plenty of maps which used made use of what we called "5D space" (two different rooms occupying the same 3D space at the same time, yet not actually being the same room). I know this isn't precisely what the article is talking about, but it's still an application of portals technology for the purposes of interesting gameplay. One of the maps that shipped with the first game was even called "5D space", and was basically a maze that folded around and intersected itself. You could run around a 270-degree curve of hallway on level ground and not intersect the same bit of hallway you were travelling down before you hit the curve...

    --
    -Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of all Trades
    "I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
  10. I'll buy it, but not for Windoze by metamatic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hopefully they'll make a version for some non-Microsoft platform.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    1. Re:I'll buy it, but not for Windoze by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hopefully they'll make a version for every non-MS platform except the one you use.

  11. Limits by Kaenneth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I wonder how many portals the source engine can handle, each portal is a new point of view to render from.

    If there was multiplayer, imagine a wall with 16 portals on it, the other side overlooking the 16 portals again... from 16 different angles...

  12. But you can go weirder! by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Portal technology allows you to join arbitrary regions of space so that light travels from one to the other, So here's a room divided into 4 quadrants: +-------+
    +.A...B.+
    +.......+
    +.C...D.+
    +-------+
     Go east from A, say, and you get to B. With portal technology you can throw away D and join the south edge of B to the east edge of C. The next result: you walk 270 degrees around the room and you end up back where you started! This is essentially what physicists mean by a curved spacetime. In this case the spacetime is "piecewise" linear with all of the curvature concentrated at the center of the room. And when you join regions with portals you can potentially use any affine transform you like. For example you could have a ring corridor with the property that when you walk around it once you are half the size you were when you started. You might see yourself half size (or twice as large) if you look far enough. This is similar to the way a mathematician might build a manifold using 'charts' and 'atlases'. (A non-orientable manifold would be one where walking through a certain door reflected you, or the universe, depending on your point of view.)

    (Note, I don't mean that there are 3 rooms, A, B and C. I mean one big room with 3 regions, and maybe a thin pillar in the center. It would look like an ordinary room until you dropped some objects and started walking around it. And of course it would get very tricky to deal with someone in one of the other regions shooting at you. You'd see them in multiple directions.)

    You can even do weirder things like make portals work in spacetime...

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  13. Re:Cool! by KIFulgore · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Kudos to Valve for taking a trip over to Digipen's career day and nabbing the whole Narbacular Drop team ;). I was a DP student when they were working on Narb, my head still hurts when I think of the difficulty level of the puzzles you can create with it. I believe in their demo they had to nerf the difficulty several times for us mere mortals.

    --
    - For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
  14. doubt it by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 2, Interesting

    double the development time, double the support issues for an additional one percent in sales. just isn't worth it. yeah you can re-use much of it from one platform to the next, but you also have OS specific problems with each.

    I don't know why they don't put games on boot disks, whatever OS they want to use. Would solve a lot of the problems that normal end users have with bad performance due to viruses and spyware, plus the game developers would likely use a linux based system. no compatibility issues, no install issues, no software conflict issues, seems they'd save a bunch on support

    but what do i know. (goes back to writing SQL queries)

    1. Re:doubt it by KIFulgore · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most developers use DirectX, and you can't legally distribute that on a boot disk. You could with OpenGL but most devs are getting better performance and shader support from DX now (so say some of my Digipen graphics programmer friends, who could be wrong).

      --
      - For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
  15. Straight to video by fractalrock · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here's a link to an .mpeg so you don't have to deal with the annoying script on Gamevideo.com's page.

  16. Offtopic: Steam by ewhac · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Now why did you feel the need to tell us all?

    This is off-topic. But since you asked...

    I feel it's important to remind people that, no matter how slick the packaging or magnificent the graphics or interesting/useful the application, this piece of software comes with an enormous downside: You have to install spyware in order to play it.

    Ordinarily, that would be the end of the discussion:

    "Hey, check out these really slick animated cursors!"
    "Dude, it's spyware."
    "Hey, isn't my new screen buddy cute?"
    "Dude, it's spyware."
    "Woah, look at this uber-cool screensaver I installed!"
    "Dude, it's spyware."
    "Wow, this free solitaire program I downloaded is much prettier than the one that comes with Windows."
    "Dude, it's spyware!"

    If a vendor distributes spyware, they are correctly pilloried by the community. Yet, for some reason, Valve gets a pass. No one has been able to make the argument that distinguishes Steam from other spyware suites out there. And no, claiming that Valve is trying to develop a new revenue model doesn't cut it, because Gator and BonziBuddy and CometCursor were also trying to develop a new revenue model.

    Anti-cheat measures? A reasonable feature, but PunkBuster did the same thing with Quake3 without being a requirement.

    If I seem just a bit more strident about this than most, it's because I'm still annoyed at Valve for breaking my copy of HalfLife. I had a perfectly working copy of HalfLife -- in fact, two copies, because I'd bought a second copy bundled with Counter-Strike because I didn't feel like spending hours downloading it -- when one day Valve announces Steam. I said, "No, thank you, Steam's 'features' are not valuable to me, and certainly not worth as much as what I'll lose in personal privacy and system stability. My copy of HalfLife works just fine the way it is." I made an economic decision; I voted with my wallet. That's what everyone here says to do, right?

    Well, that wasn't good enough for Valve, who apparently threatened or bought off the GameSpy3D and All-Seeing Eye publishers into refusing to list non-Steam game servers (of which there were plenty), and shutting off the old authentication servers. In other words, they broke my copy of HalfLife to try and force me to install their spyware. I have stuck to my principles, and continue to refuse to install Steam. This means I don't get to play TFC or Counter-Strike any more, despite the fact that there's nothing, technically, wrong with the copies I own. A considerable fraction of the value in the software I bought and paid for has been destroyed.

    Valve tried to change the terms of the sale in a big fscking way long after the fact. If they did it once, there's every reason to suspect they'll do it again. Sorry, you don't get to do that, not with my machine and not with my dollars. I feel it's still important to make people aware that the cost to them may well be far greater than simply the dollars they'll part with.

    Schwab

    P.S: If anyone knows of any master servers listing non-Steam TFC and Counter-Strike servers that will work with the old WON-based versions of HalfLife, I'd appreciate knowing about it.

    --
    Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
    1. Re:Offtopic: Steam by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      In other words, they broke my copy of HalfLife to try and force me to install their spyware.

      No, they decided to stop offering the service you were used to getting for free, and replace it with a different service (also free).

      I actually like Steam, because unlike other forms of spyware or DRM (both of which are evil), Steam actually stays 100% out of my way, without significantly changing the model for my owning a game.

      Let's compare Steam to other copy protection models:

      CD Keys. Don't work, easily broken by "borrowing" a friend's key and denying access to the game's authentication servers.

      Requiring the CD to be inserted. This is either ludicrously easy to beat (create another virtual drive in Wine, change some registry values, or put a snigle file on a single Samba share in Windows) or insanely annoying, or both. In any case, it prevents backups, and it shortens the life of the original CD, assuming it works.

      Making the game a service (MMO). Great, so I pay $50 or $60 for the game, then you want me to spend $15 a month to keep playing? Not usually worth it, and only works for MMOs.

      Steam. Well, it may be a steaming pile of crap technologically (IE all over), but it means that once I pay for a game, I've paid for it. I can then play said game from any computer that I remember my Steam password on, and every time I play it, I get to download and install the software. It also automatically provides me updates in a fairly unobtrusive way (something I've never had another game do), and not only allows me to play the game without a CD, not only allows me to download any number of times, but actually provides me with a tool to back up a copy of any number of Steam games to a CD or DVD, in a way that's account neutral -- which means if my friend buys Half-Life 2, I can burn a CD of the game and give it to him, saving him from waiting for the download.

      It's even been good about asking before it sends info in. A hardware survey, for instance. Whereas these other pieces of spyware tend to collect personal info, send it in, silently eat up resources in the background with no explanation as to why, and cannot be shut off effectively.

      I mean, yes, by some definition, it's Spyware, but by the same definition, so is Windows. Your copy of Windows would be very, very broken if you didn't get your automatic updates.

      Anyway, end of rant, but I really get sick of all the hatred against Steam every time it comes up. You want an argument that distinguishes Steam from these other things? Steam actually adds value. Most spyware generally does nothing for you, steals your resources, pops up messages, and sends spam. Steam does none of these things, but lets you do things (legally!) that no other game or game platform lets you do at all.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  17. Re:Bandwidth Limit Exceeded by Khuffie · · Score: 2, Informative

    Try this

  18. Re:Bandwidth Limit Exceeded by Khuffie · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wait, even better: just put in a fake email addie. No annoying fileplanet.

  19. Mod for Prey allows this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is already a simple mod for the prey demo that allows this... http://forums.3drealms.com/vb/showthread.php?t=193 35 with a video demonstrations http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6727494773 800764468

  20. Backdoor in game let's you win immediately. by neo · · Score: 3, Funny

    If you just turn around and shot the wall, you can travel to the final level immediately. What a rip off.

  21. That's not a portal. by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 3, Informative

    That's just your average teleportation device. Another example is the normal teleporters that are all over your average Quake/Doom/Unreal map. Basically, you activate it and it moves you.

    Portals are much cooler because it's not like you're looking through a portal or a teleporter -- a portal really is just a hole in the wall that happens to lead to another part of the map. You've probably played plenty of games with Portal without realizing it, because it's usually used for occlusion culling for indoor geometry.

    It basically means your game geometry is a linked list, only more complex... like hyperlinks...

    Nevermind, let me try and translate. Say you have three rooms in an L shape. If you're in the first room, looking into the second, but you can't see the entrance to the third room, then the game can skip drawing the entire third room. It can break the second room down, also -- you could have a portal in the middle of the room, so that half the room can just be ignored if it knows you can't see the portal to that half of the room.

    They also have the nifty ability to do crazy stuff like this, because the portal between two rooms is really only a pointer between them, in the literal, programming sense.

    So, this implementation may be the most polished user-modifiable portals you've seen, but you've probably seen plenty of very polished portals that you never knew were there. That, and the UT thing you mentioned isn't really portals...

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  22. Re:Portal progression by grumbel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ### if you create this new entrance and go through it, without placing a linked exit, you're now going against the natural progression of the portal system, and something weird happens.

    Most simple solution would be to link the portal to itself, so if you go in, you come out at the exact same spot, just the other way around. Even more funny would be to make the portal like a mirror, so if you go in you come out in a world that is a mirrored version of the one you left. 'The Room' demo that was shown on GDC a while back did fun stuff like that, it had scale-portals, throw a small object through one portal and it will come out enlarged of another portal.

  23. Did NOBODY play Descent? by SynapseLapse · · Score: 2, Informative

    Descent featured the ability to create portals in game. It was used as a space save measure to fit larger levels into a rather small level cube, but there were still some interesting fan based levels created using that part of the engine.

  24. Slashdotted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    I couldn't load the video referenced in the article, but I found this on Google Video (which I think is the same video). It looks pretty sweet.

    Link

  25. Re:Original... by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDDvrovKgeM

    --
    Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.