Simon Phipps on the Process of Opening Java

twofish writes "Simon Phipps, the chief open-source officer at Sun Microsystems, has reaffirmed Sun's commitment to Open Source in an interview with computerworld. The focus of the interview is Simon's efforts to fully open source Java. He points out that many problems need to be resolved before Java can be open sourced — ownership, legal, access, encumbrances and relationships with Java licensees. It took Sun a full five years to solve these issues with Solaris. However Simon predicts that it won't take anything near this amount of time to complete the task with Java. Of course, one of the other concerns for OS Java is the resulting incompatible versions and breaking of the Java WORA model (Gosling himself has always been particularly concerned about incompatible forks resulting in the introduction of an open source version of Java) and this opens up additional problems for the open source Java model."

Comments

Incompatible Java forks

[Anonymous Coward]

Gosling himself has always been particularly concerned about incompatible forks resulting in the introduction of an open source version of Java)

So hold onto the trademark, the same way the Mozilla foundation do, and only let implementations that pass a rigorous testsuite use it.

Re:Incompatible Java forks

[Brandybuck]

To play devil's advocate, I think what they're worried about is another J++, where someone (Microsoft) creates an almost-but-not-quite Java, and then you end up with "write once run nowhere else". I don't necessarily agree with that worry, but I strongly suspect that's what's in Sun's head.

Re:Incompatible Java forks

[Bogtha]

I think what they're worried about is another J++, where someone (Microsoft) creates an almost-but-not-quite Java

Which of these two scenarios do you think is most likely to cause that situation?

• People who object to Sun's non-open license create a from-scratch implementation of Java, or
• People take Sun's open-source Java and use it directly.

It seems fairly obvious to me that forcing people to create another Java implementation instead of letting them use the "canonical version" as they wish is far more likely to bring about another J++ situation.

Re:Incompatible Java forks

[Tim C]

People who object to Sun's non-open license create a from-scratch implementation of Java

But they can't call it Java, as that's a trademark owned by Sun, and so merely have a runtime that's nominally compatible with Java.

In that situation there is a danger that people will start using it in preference to the real Java, as "it's practically the same, only better (in $ways)", but then that's a danger posed by .NET or any other similar technology.

Re:Incompatible Java forks

[IamTheRealMike]

Unfortunately the fact that Mozilla trademarks things up the wazoo did not stop Debian from forking XULRunner to make it more "UNIXy". Ultimately trademarks must be supported with lawsuits if they are to be effective and unsurprisingly there isn't much appetite for suing open source projects that badly fork a codebase.

Java already breaks the WORA model

[MarkByers]

I have a Java client on my webserver and half the mails I get are because the Java client doesn't work on people's computer. Usually this is because they have some old version of Microsoft's Java Runtime installed, which only supports Java 1.1 (badly).

What a mess! I can't really see how opening it up will make it any worse than it already is today.

Re:Java already breaks the WORA model

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Usually this is because they have some old version of Microsoft's Java Runtime installed, which only supports Java 1.1 (badly). What a mess! I can't really see how opening it up will make it any worse than it already is today.

Okay so MS broke the law and released an intentionally broken JVM to try and kill Java as a dev platform. The courts stopped them, but you're still dealing with the mess with a few remaining legacy systems from that time. You don't see how giving MS an opportunity to bundle a new broken version on every computer sold in the world could make things worse?

Re:Java already breaks the WORA model

[asv108]

I love how the only thing some people tend to associate Java with, are poorly implemented applets.

Re:Java already breaks the WORA model

[Decaff]

I have a Java client on my webserver and half the mails I get are because the Java client doesn't work on people's computer. Usually this is because they have some old version of Microsoft's Java Runtime installed, which only supports Java 1.1 (badly).

What a mess! I can't really see how opening it up will make it any worse than it already is today.

Guess what! I have some Linux software that won't run on the 1.0.x kernel or with really early versions of libc. By the same reasoning this must surely mean that Linux is broken and you can't write the same code for different platforms.

Of course this is nonsense, and isn't what WORA is about, and certainly shouldn't have been rated 'insightful'. WORA does not include some kind of time machine facility to allow software written to current VM and language and library specifications to work on 10-year old VMs and old libraries. The idea is, of course, that if you write for Java 1.4.2, your software will run on any Java 1.4.2 VM (or later) on any platform.

Other Open Source languages don't seem to suffer

[Burdell]

There are many open source programming languages already (perl, python,
etc.), and they don't seem to have a problem with forking or
compatibility.

If Sun fosters a good development community, there shouldn't be a
problem.

Exactly

[sterno]

It is fair to say that down the line even when they do opensource it, Sun's version will be the defacto standard. Figure if they and IBM work together on new versions, there's a pretty good guarantee that there won't be any major forks. Sure, there will be forks, but invariably those forks won't be what the average corporate server is running on, etc. Since it's open source, any of the good changes from those forks can be rolled back into the main Sun standard.

I can understand Sun's fear as Java has been a huge part of their business, but I think as long as they keep pushing the standard forward forks will be irrelevant.

Solaris - solved?

[kripkenstein]

It took Sun a full five years to solve these issues with Solaris.

Solved? We should be so lucky. Things are far from solved. If Sun had released Solaris under the GPL, that would be good and done. Instead, it's under their own CDDL, which isn't easily compatible with the far-more-common GPL. This leads to issues for interesting projects like GNU/Solaris (Nexenta), which should have been quickly welcomed by the Open Source community. Instead, Sun's choice of the CDDL makes things complicated where they shouldn't be.

So, in short, I would not say that Sun 'solved' these 'problems' with Solaris, and I sincerely hope they do a better job with Java.

Re:Solaris - solved?

[Petersko]

"Solved? We should be so lucky. Things are far from solved. If Sun had released Solaris under the GPL, that would be good and done. Instead, it's under their own CDDL, which isn't easily compatible with the far-more-common GPL. This leads to issues for interesting projects like GNU/Solaris (Nexenta), which should have been quickly welcomed by the Open Source community. Instead, Sun's choice of the CDDL makes things complicated where they shouldn't be. "

Sun solved "their" problems. I highly doubt they took all that time to solve "your" problems. Their measure of success is not how they've complied with the open source community, it's how they fared in meeting their own needs.

What exactly did you expect?

Re:Solaris - solved?

[kripkenstein]

You're pointing at a problem that to Sun wasn't a problem. They *WEREN'T* aming for GPL compatibility.

I guess they weren't, since they didn't. And this is certainly a problem for the Open Source community. But this is also a problem for *Sun*, I would argue. What are the chances of OpenSolaris taking off, if the vast majority of the Open Source community can't use its code with the code they are used to? They can't improve OpenSolaris as they would like, and vice versa.

The whole CDDL issue seems to be an attempt to challenge Linux. Perhaps they envision a 'two-power' future for Open Source, where there is the GNU/Linux camp, under the GPL, and the Solaris camp, under the CDDL, and no code shall pass between them. This sounds a bit like the cold war to me (but maybe I'm just too old and/or senile, and mixing my metaphors).

To get back to the point, Sun open-sourced Solaris at a time when there was already a large and fruitful Open Source community. They chose not to play nice with that community, and seem to want to start a new base of power. If this is their 'solution', I'm not sure what the problem was. I find it hard to envision a promising future for OpenSolaris under current conditions.

That's a popular method.

[jd]

• The "red book" that defined the CD standard was the main reason CDs were as interchangable as they were. DVDs, which have no such rigorous standard to meet, tend to be less predictable.
  
• IPv6 hasn't got an "official" centrally-run test suite, but such suites for the purpose of certification do exist.
  
• C follows standards, rather than official regression tests, so you do get a lot more variation in quality and interchangability. In general, though, it demonstrates that simply defining a central standard is adequate for basic stuff.
  
• POSIX used a mix of standards and official testing, and had a big impact on the interoperability of Unix systems - though nowhere near as much as seems to have been hoped.
  
• Standards and tests by committee seem to be a Very Bad Idea. CORBA and SQL followed this road and have resulted in guaranteed inefficiency - apparently for the purpose of promoting the "extended" packages released by the vendors who created the standards in the first place.
  

If the process is followed - hey, that's great, but is needs to be done right if it is to be worth the doing.

open java equals forks for major vendors

[Fedarkyn]

other open languages (like phyton) don't have forks because a fork wouldn't do any good to the forker. major application server suppliers could make a lot of profit with a vendor lock implemented with gradual non conformities with its JVM. and a open source implementation of the JVM wouldn't make any difference for the non religious free/open source zealot.

Re:As a web app developer...

[Brandybuck]

Just because all you have is a hammer does not mean that every problem is a nail.

Honestly

[Rorian]

I really like Java the way it is now - One single download of the OFFICIAL JRE and you can run pretty much anything that any website can throw at you, run a multitude of Java-based programs and you never really have to worry about having the right libraries etc. cause it's all _just there_ (with the exception of some applications which do require free java libraries.. most of the good applications manage to bundle everything in one neat package though).

Open Source Java would be nice because you'd never really have to worry about Sun turning around and charging on a subscription or per-seat basis for the JRE or JDK, although I don't think thats ever going to be in their interests anyway.

Having offshoots of Java which are almost JRE compatible but just have a little extra here and a little extra there is probably just going to confuse everything a lot. With any luck OSS developers will realize this and simply contribute to mainstream Java, but I guess time will tell what actually happens.

Re:Other Open Source languages don't seem to suffe

[955301]

ever used perl for win32? There were differences between it and unix' perl versions.

And it's naive to think that python or Perl are good examples. There was such huge energy behind Java in the commercial world that Microsoft made a clone. You better believe J++ would come back again if Sun gave a half a chance for it to sneak back in.

Re:Other Open Source languages don't seem to suffe

[Anonymous Coward]

Java is a tad bigger in the Enterprise market than perl and python. I'm not saying that perl and python apps don't run on mission critical systems. I'm just saying that multi-million dollar companies (and therefore thousands of employees) have more to lose if Java becomes corrupted vs perl or python. Hence why it is the duty of Sun to make sure they don't make any mistakes.

Re:As a web app developer...

[BigCheese]

Hmmm, no +1 Funny mods. You should have wrapped that one with some sort of humor indicator.

If you are serious, seek help.

Who will fund future development?

[Kunta Kinte]

My main concern with Java being Open-Sourced is that Sun may lose its incentive to continue funding Java development.

Java is not Python nor Perl. Even then, how long has Perl6 been in development? "It's ready when it's ready" is not good enough to much of the corporate world.

People asking for Java to be open-sourced believe that this will increase the amount of resources put into Java. I'm not so sure.

How long has Perl6 been in development?

[Kunta Kinte]

There are many open source programming languages already (perl, python, etc.), and they don't seem to have a problem with forking or compatibility.

And how long has Perl6 been in development?

Sure there hasn't been a fork. That's because there aren't enough resources to development even the main branch!

Perl, Python are large scale under-funded open-source projects and thus highlight what I believe to be one of the main reasons not to open-source Java just now.

We haven't answered the question of who will fund future development...

MS broke the WORA model

[bharlan]

You must be thinking of J++, since J# appeared much later with .NET, long after the contract lawsuit.

J++ wasn't java. Byte code from J++ included new non-optional instructions, violated the specification, and thus could not run on any VM but Microsoft's. Microsoft's VM did not support 1.1 features for handling native code. How would Sun have benefited from a non-java VM pretending to be java?

Java isn't WORA

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really more like WOR[W|L|SU] ... or write once run on Windows, Linux and some Unix. Now if you emulate Linux or Windows on other OS's you can get it to work but do you really want to run a virtual machine on a virtual os on your os?

Re:How long has Perl 6 been in development?

[chromatic]

And how long has Perl6 been in development?

Perl 6 has had five or six funded man-years of development. By my estimation, Microsoft developers spend as much time on-clock reading e-mail in a week.