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Computer Job w/ No Computer Degree?
Peterus7 asks: "I posted here a few years back, complaining that I couldn't code worth beans, but I wanted to get into computer science. Well, I'm back- with a psychology degree. However, I hear there's still hope since a lot of system admins and the like have liberal arts degrees. In the mean time, I've been working as a Macintosh digital media tutor, freelance tech support, and an assistant system admin at the campus library. Now that I've graduated, I want to find a job that will accept someone who knows a fair amount about computers, but is pretty much self-taught. Where should I start? Are there any classes I should take?"
I reviewed your original submission, and I gotta say that being a sysadmin is not for you. Well, maybe Windows, but in general a sysadmin has to be extremely good at problem solving. If you couldn't get into Java then you're gonna be banging your head against the wall on a daily basis with the kind of problems sysadmins face. No, they don't necessarily write any code, but the analytical skills required to learn to program are the same as debugging complex interactions between software.
Being self-taught really has nothing to do with it. There are people that never took a single class but were able to pick up programming form a few simple tutorials and a language reference. Likewise, some people take the Intro to Programming class several times and simply fail to ever grasp the abstract nature of code. A computer science degree is valuable because of the ideas it exposes you to, and because employers may value it, but it doesn't really say much about your ability as a computer professional.
My advice would be to look for a job centered around specific applications. Something concrete with good documentation that you learn to perfection. Another possibility is building or repairing computers. It sounds like you've already been doing quite a bit, so you probably have an idea of what you enjoyed and what you didn't. The next step is to simply apply for some jobs and see what pans out.
Want to design web sites? You won't believe how many artists and companies want web sites. Make some. Do them for friends and relatives. Make them nice, make them do neat things. Now you've got a portfolio. Look for companies wanting web sites and sell yourself. Make a business out of it.
If you work for yourself (web sites, tech support, whatever) then the hiring manager won't care you don't have a degree. Work your way up and prove you can do what you say and you can get jobs.
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Without the skills on paper (relevant coursework, certifications, similar work experience), you're at a severe disadvantage at the resume stage. People are going to spend their time with the people who say they can do it and have something to back it up before they spend their time looking at people who only say they can do something.
You're going to have to meet people and get yourself promoted almost exclusively by word of mouth. Even then it's going to be an uphill battle, because there's always going to be somebody more qualified who's going to get one of the precious interview slots before you. Then you have to be absolutely sure you know what you're doing in the interview, because while somebody who has experience or other qualifications that they can point to may be granted a little bit of slack if they can't do something right off the top of their head (as long as they know, procedurally, what's going on), without anything like that, you have nothing to point to other than your word that you actually do have some kind of background in it.
It's not impossible by any means, but you have it a lot harder than anybody else out there, and you're probably going to be looking for a long time before you find that job you want. And when you do, you're likely going to be hired on the recomendation of one of the people you know in one of your placeholder jobs.
much better to have a GOOD manager who knows management than a mediocre manager who knows both management and computers
then again when you get a mediocre manager who just knows management you end up with a perfect storm of suck.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Since from what I know of liberal arts majors, you likely have better writing skills than true computer science graduates. While jumping from pyschology to comp sci would be rough, but your writing ability is a gem. Use it.
I took 3 years of CS classes, dropped out, with disgust and contempt for the department I might add. Later I returned to finish college, this time as a history major. I swore I'd never take another CS class as long as I lived, and settled for the minor. I've currently got about 20 hours left for the BA. Which will take forever, since I work full time as a Network Admin, and I love my job far more than I ever loved college. I still maintain that all college did for me was network me with some great friends, the degree has become a matter of pride for me, and little else.
So, I have no credentials to speak of, other than a self built business, mostly consulting work, and a load of time spent learning anything that sparked my interest, and certifcations are a waste of money IMHO. But I can code, a good admin has to be able to write, read, and alter code. A good admin has to be able to make programs accross the network work together, and shoe horn stuff together when need be, all while keeping the whole thing secure and stable. You might find yourself reading C one day, figureing out why the billing system suspends accounts for 24 hours after successfully proccessing credit cards, if the credit card was ran on the last day before the account would have gone deliquent(true story), and the nexy day, you are manually patching a hacked phpBB because the owner customized so much of it that you can't just upgrade their forum....
I tend to ramble, but my point is, you won't make it very high up the ladder in the CS/CE world without the ability to code, it is a fundemental skill.
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
I don't have more then a half dozen courses of post secondary education( I know the stuff, or can learn it, just not in the normal post secondary environments - and found that I don't need to).
I also have over 6 years of experience, working my way up the chain of tech support. I'm now a server admin and general troubleshooter for an organization that supports over 3000 desktops, 150 servers from Vancouver to Angola, with 9 techs.
I didn't get the job for my education, I got it for my experience. The 4 years that I put in while most people were in college have earned me a larger pay increase on average then the techs I know(both in and out of my organization) have earned from 4 years in college.
I know someone is going to say, it will matter in the future - years down the road they will make more then me. But 6 years ago, I was told that after 4 years I would be making less. Don't buy it just because they say so.
Besides, the work is rewarding and I enjoy it, so I don't really care at this point.
On Arrakis: early worm gets the bird. Magister mundi sum!
I've been in the computer industry for 20 years. I've worked on embedded systems, mainframes, and many things in between. I've been called a programmer, system administrator, manager of information systems, network architecht, and consultant. I've worked for a wide range of companies, done a lot of consulting, been courted by headhunters. I now work as a professor teaching computer programming and system administration; my first computer book is about to be published, and another is in the works.
I have no degree in any computer-related field, so I think I can speak to this topic!
Working in this industry without a degree requires the same creativity and committment that working with a degree requires -- but in slightly larger quantities.
You're selling your clients knowledge and skill. These come through practical hands-on experience and the consumption of a lot of information. With or without a degree, anyone who is going to be successful in this industry needs hands-on, dirt-under-the-fingernails experience with a wide range of technology, and should be reading a minimum of 15 hours a week to stay current. (If you have a degree and you're not putting that type of effort into staying current, well, I won't be hiring you).
Some practical suggestions--
- Find an established but small company that's willing to take a risk on you. In a small company, you're more likely to be exposed to a variety of technologies and work in a variety of roles so you can learn lots (and see what you enjoy).
- Consider consulting as a second step. (Tip: set your hourly rate higher rather than lower. Assuming you know your stuff, your clients will treat you with more respect -- double the billing rate and you'll have a lot less crap to deal with).
- Stay flexible, experiment a lot (either at work or home or both), and read a lot. If a new technology comes up in discussion, and you can speak knowledgably about it with management or clients while your colleagues are scratching their heads, the degree issue becomes moot.
- Don't apologize for your lack of computer degree. Don't even bring it up unless directly asked. Focus on your accomplishments.
I am not sure why you got modded funny. But, then again, this _is_ slashdot.
... by the time the programmers were half way through getting me to understand what they were trying to achieve they would go "I got it, I got it. Thanks, you saved us untold hours ..." (Truth being told, I can actually do both Java and SQL, but, they didn't need to know that; besides, my skills in both were, and are, significantly lower than the rest of the crew.)
The best IT project manager, bare none, I had the pleasure of working with was indeed unable to program anything, save, perhaps, his VCR. That didn't stop him from having an amazing grasp on the projects; his projects always were, on time and on budget. Yes, I do mean always, and, yes, it could well be it's also because he knew how to select his projects.
Also, although being the sole non-programmer - except for the accounting and HR people - in the last company I worked for - largish outfit, most of you have heard of - I was sought after to help debug Java and SQL programming issues. Being a "programming moron" helped
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley