Nintendo and Microsoft in Suit Over Controller Patents

Via Kotaku, an article at the Inquirer discussing a patent suit brought against Microsoft and Nintendo over controller technologies. Anascape Ltd, a Texas firm, claims the two companies have infringed on over a dozen of its held patents. From the article: "Anascape alleges 6,222,525 'Image Controller with Sheet Connected Sensors' was also breached, as well as 6,343, 991 'Game Control with Analog Pressure Sensor' and 6,344,791 'Variable Sensor with Tactile Feedback'. As well as 6,347,997 'Analog Controls Housed with Electronic Displays', 6,351,205 'Variable Conductance Sensor' (a different one) and 6,400, 303 'Remote Controller with Analog Pressure Sensor' (a different one)."

Comments

Business Plan

[neonprimetime]

I think I've seen this business plan before
1. Start a business in an area dominated by MSFT
2. Sue them for patent infringment
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

Re:Business Plan

[k_187]

right, because nintendo is just getting into the video game business.

Re:Business Plan

[k_187]

doh, missed the original defendants. RTFA

Re:Business Plan

[canavan]

While the headline is a bit missleading, the blurb quite clearly states that it is "Anascape Ltd, a Texas firm" sueing both Microsoft and Nintendo.

Re:Business Plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, perhaps:
1. Start a business in an area dominated by MSFT
2. Sue them for patent infringment
3. Microsoft purchases business
4. Retire!!!!

Re:Business Plan

[soft_guy]

Microsoft hardly dominates the video game business. Out of the last generation consoles, they were only one to consistantly lose money.

Re:Business Plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Money earned or lost has nothing to do with market share. You can lose money like there's no tomorrow, but still be #1 in the market.

That said, Sony's still number one, so ya, they don't exactly dominate.

Microsoft ignores patent?

[fullphaser]

This is news?

Patent trolls?

[govtpiggy]

So these guys have apparently patented the idea of an analog button doing anything on a display. Smells like patent trolls to me. I just want to know why these seemingly obvious patents keep getting given out.

United States Patent 6,347,997:

Devices for controlling imagery shown by a display, and including an analog sensor for creating a varying analog value according to varying depression applied by a finger of a human user to the analog sensor. In one preferred embodiment the analog sensor(s) includes a resilient dome cap for providing tactile feedback to the finger depressing the analog sensor. Circuitry within a housing is connected to the analog sensor for reading the varying analog value from the analog sensor and causing representative varying the imagery shown by the display. The devices can be individually structured as electronic game controllers/systems, telephones, pagers, electronic books, web browsers, global positioning receivers, ovens, coffee makers and personal digital assistants (PDA) to name a few.

Re:Patent trolls?

[russ1337]

If every second Slashdot story was a patent applicaton, it would be a start to weed out the patent trolls...

Sure it wont catch these guys seeing as they submitted it in 1999, but its a start.

I believe the patent system needs a total overhaul. Technology evolves so fast that perhaps the patent period should be limited to 5 years, and only on the conditon you are selling the product, or the patent is forfeited.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Anonymous Coward]

" I just want to know why these seemingly obvious patents keep getting given out."

Because the US patent office is an underfunded branch of the US Federal government whose main source of funding comes from the processing fee for new patents. They don't have the resources, the manpower or the time to actually check the patents anymore - so it falls on the court system to do the job that the patent office was setup for.

No one is agitating for anything different because doing the patent office right would involve 1) neutral funding (i.e. tax money, and no one likes to be responsible and pay taxes for things to make goverment actually functional) and 2) creating a system that isn't so beneficial to the big companies. Nuisance lawsuits like this one usually aren't a big deal to companies with deep pockets in exchange for their ability to screw over the small inventor when he "infringes" on one of their own overly broad patents. Or, even better, when another large company does it. Then their investment pays off.

Re:Patent trolls?

[fishybell]

Devices for controlling imagery shown by a display, and including an analog sensor for creating a varying analog value

Wow...sucks for them. Too bad both Microsoft and Nintendo use digital controllers. Yes, there are varying values depending on the analog input (all human input is analog after all), but the output is now, always has been, and always will be, digital.

There is no way that either Microsoft or Nintendo are sending varying levels of voltages to the console when they can send a couple of digital packets that contain all the information on all the buttons in about the same amount of bandwidth (over cord or air). Technically the packets are an analog signal that is encoded to represent a digital value, but there is no "varying analog value," just a series of different combinations of the same value of high and low voltage.

Re:Patent trolls?

[kfg]

There's nothing obvious about this at all. The controller I built uses a cone depressed by a foot.

Totally different.

KFG

Re:Patent trolls?

[0xABADC0DA]

I just want to know why these seemingly obvious patents keep getting given out.

The simple answer is because there is no penalty to filing a bogus patents other than the filing fee. A few tweaks to the system to make abusing it carry a cost and the system would work fine. And for that matter software algorithms should be patentable, just like any other process, the real problem is that there are so many bogus software patents like 'clicking a button to purchase goods' that are just criminally stupid.

* If a patent suit fails because the patent is found to be obvious or that due diligence was not taken to check for prior art than the holder should be fined a fixed percentage of how much they sought in damages (say 10%).

* If a suit fails because of prior art that invalidates the patent the filer should be required by law to pay the defendant's reasonable legal fees.

* If the patent is found to be "obscure" (based on "I know it when I see it doctrine"), even if valid, then the filer should be fined. If found purposely obscure the filer should be barred from patenting for a period and/or jailed. For example, when drafts are found showing plain language converted to 'legalese' (this would be for deterrent, but hardly ever enforced based on the difficulty to prove).

This clears up the patent problems, and without negatively affecting small inventors that have a genuinely new idea.

Re:Patent trolls?

[DRJlaw]

No. The abstract of a patent does not tell what has been patented. Nor does the title, the detailed description, the background...

You have to read the claims.

1. A hand holdable electronic device for controlling imagery, comprising:

a housing sized to be hand-held;

electronic circuitry located in said housing;

a general image display located in said housing, said general image display operatively connected to said circuitry;

at least one finger depressible surface in part exposed on said housing, said at least one finger depressible surface operatively connected to

at least one pressure-sensitive analog sensor, said pressure-sensitive analog sensor for inputting a signal to said circuitry, said signal having variable value depending on variable pressure applied to said at least one finger depressible surface;

said circuitry structured to receive said signal and to cause said general image display to provide variable visual feedback data, said variable visual feedback data at least in part representing the variable pressure applied to said at least one finger depressible surface, whereby said variable visual feedback data may be controlled at varying rates according to variable pressure applied to said at least one finger depressible surface.

These seemingly obvious patents keep getting given out becuase they are figments of your imagination. The actual patented invention may be less obvious than you think.

Re:Patent trolls?

[shimage]

So you're telling me that only companies big enough to sell things should be allowed to patent something? A guy can't just come up with a good idea and sell it to someone anymore? I think requiring intent to manufacture something results in a chicken and egg problem for "little people". Not that I don't think there is a serious problem with the USPTO; I just don't think that's the solution.

Re:Patent trolls?

[sqlrob]

So go back to requiring a prototype

Re:Patent trolls?

[UbuntuDupe]

I don't want to sound too fawning, but those seem like such commonsense, reasonable ideas, I don't know why they weren't originally written into patent law. (Though maybe some leeway in either direction on the penalties you've listed.) Especially the part about legalese, which should be easy to check. That is, a defendant, or anyone contesting the patent, is allowed to offer an alternative summary description of the patent in simpler language, and if the plaintiff/patentholder cannot show how his "invention" differs AND the judge (or jury or whatever) finds the offered version to be significantly easier to understand, then some penalty applies, perhaps including releasing the patent into the public domain. By giving people a stiff incentive to find the simplest way to describe it, you've made the patent office's job easier, and, as icing on the cake, you will make a lot of ho-hum "inventors" have to face the harsh reality of their own lack of creativity.

Re:Patent trolls?

[KDR_11k]

I think what's REALLY needed for dealing with patent trolls is an AT4 or five.

Re:Patent trolls?

[KDR_11k]

Nintendo has been using digital protocols since the NES (whereas the Atari VCS simply had a few wires connecting each part of the controller with the base system), Microsoft uses USB. Perhaps analog peripherials used by Atari would fall under this umbrella.

Re:Patent trolls?

[xenocide2]

I'm no patent lawyer, not even a lawyer at all, but I sometimes find myself describing the values captured from an ADC as "analog," even though it's clearly digital at this point (but still in useless unscientific form). And I have no doubt that the accellerometer on the Wii has an analog output hooked up to an ADC on a microcontroller before it ever reaches the Wii. Meaning that at some level, they are including an analog sensor creating analog values.

Re:Patent trolls?

[KDR_11k]

Software algorithms are just mathematics, I don't think those were ever patentable. After all maths were around when the patent system was set up so it would have a provision for maths already if that was intended to be patentable.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Anonymous Coward]

This kind of crap would not pass in my joke of a design class. I have no idea when the patent process became so lax but its kind of sad. All of us Engineers that actually struggled through our senior design classes are getting a real short stick if this is the kind of crap the let through the patent office...

Re:Patent trolls?

[Anonymous Coward]

This patent is broad, general and late.
Broad--covers anything from a hand-held altimeter with a digital display to a Wacom pen.
General--just an idea, not an implementation, why does beeing handheld even matter if you provide no implementation details!?
Late--done before, way before, various home pong versions did analog inputs, it doesn't get much earlier as far as games go.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Digital Vomit]

Apparently all it takes is a sixth grade education to be employed at the US patent office. When they see all those big, strange words, they think "I don't even understand half of this. It must be new and innovative!"

Why can't they hire real Einsteins like they used to?

Re:Patent trolls?

[KDR_11k]

Yes but there's no image display in either controller so that infringement claim would be nonsense. After all it says the display is in the same housing.

Re:Patent trolls?

[payndz]

Wow...sucks for them. Too bad both Microsoft and Nintendo use digital controllers. Yes, there are varying values depending on the analog input (all human input is analog after all), but the output is now, always has been, and always will be, digital.

IIRC (it's been a while), the N64 'analogue' stick was actually a matrix of either 64x64 or 128x128 values, and therefore digital. So absolutely correct, Nintendo did (and probably still does) use entirely digital control systems, so this patent is even more bullshit than it already was.

To me, analogue controllers were those things attached to VCS-era non-Atari games consoles and second-division computers like the Dragon 32 that never self-centred properly and were almost impossible to play games with.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well I'm still planning on suing you- your "caltrop controller" gave me lockjaw.

Re:Patent trolls?

[kfg]

I guess in future I'll have to put a sticker on each unit that reads:

Warning! Use of the brake pedal without the brake pedal is . . .stupid.

How come we never see stickers like that?

Warning! Not knowing that pointy things can hurt you if you're not careful means you're a moron and should probably just be removed from the gene pool anyway. That's the way it used to work; and we liked it!

KFG

Re:Patent trolls?

[Ant P.]

I haven't looked at a GCN controller, but the N64 controller works almost the same as a ball mouse: it detects direction and speed (using digital sensors), which is why it malfunctions if you turn the console on with the stick off-centre (it doesn't know where it is). They presumably fixed that in the GCN one with some sort of auto calibration.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Phisbut]

So you're telling me that only companies big enough to sell things should be allowed to patent something? A guy can't just come up with a good idea and sell it to someone anymore?

No, but then why wait 6 years before suing? They can hardly claim they never heard of either the XBox or the GameCube since then. Did they purposefully wait until Microsoft and Nintendo had sold a whole lot of units before going with the suit, to make sure the settlement was as big as possible (they are suing quite close to both products end of life, neither will sell a whole lot more than what is already sold at the moment).

This looks like submarine to me. Submarining is bad, whether you are a big comapny or the little guy.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Lehk228]

I believe the GCN exibits the same behavior, it really is a feature not a bug however, the small annoyance of having to reconnect the controller is much better than having a spring wear unevenly and suddenly have the neutral position cause movement in one direction.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Mattintosh]

The Gamecube controller uses the same hardware as the N64 one. It does not detect direction and speed. It's a 512x512 "grid". (Don't ask me why they used a 9-bit number on each axis. It's a barely noticeable increase in precision.)

As for starting the system with the stick off-center, that's a feature, not a bug. The stick auto-calibrates every time the system starts up. If you happen to have the stick tilted at startup, it calibrates that as the center "neutral point", thus when the stick goes back to neutral, it's being sensed as tilted the opposite direction from where you had it when you turned the system on. You can force the system to auto-calibrate at any time by pressing L+R+Start. This works for both the N64 and the Gamecube.

Re:Patent trolls?

[Jartan]

Ok I'm looking at the claims and basically it's extremely clear from the claims that they've tried to patent the concept of a pressure sensitive analog button that has visual feedback.

It's a good idea no doubt. I can think of tons of applications for such a button. Although I can't remember any game controller ever having a pressure sensitive analog button. It's very specific that it has to be a depressible surface so they can't claim analog sticks count.

The problem though still is that it's freaking obvious. Pressure sensitive analog buttons were not new when this patent was filed.

All they did was take an electronic component and patent different kinds of devices you could put said component on. It's the equivalent of someone in the past trying to patent an "analog rotational circuit connected to a stick in a handheld device containing electroncis" before consoles came out and then suing over the joystick.

It's bogus because the idea of using an analog stick is pretty obvious and the idea of putting it in a handheld device is even more obvious. The only thing worth patent in a joystick is the original patent on the analog sensor itself. Yet in today's world it would be perfectly normal that putting a button on the stick connected to the analog rotational sensor in a handheld device is a patent.

All of this talk about "obvious" brings up another point. Even if it were unobvious I'd still call this a bogus patent. Our patent system is full of crap that probably wasn't obvious but still didn't deserve a patent.

Take for instance whatever patent Apple has that covers the wheel (circular touch sensor blah blah) on an iPod. That was indeed UNobvious but does it deserve a patent? Was the concept really all that hard to develop? Personally I can't see the reason for it. Patents are supposed to exist to provide incentive to scientific advancement. They don't exist to make sure everytime an engineer has a moderately good design idea that his employer can have a sudden monopoly on said idea.

Re:Patent trolls?

[shimage]

Sorry for not being clearer; I agree with your point (that the suit is bull). I just think that requiring that they manufacture the patented product will create far more problems than it solves. I don't think you can fit a good solution into a slashdot post, though, so I'm not going to try.

Re:Patent trolls?

[serodores]

Under the newer patent laws (first to file over first to invent), this would mean the person with the crappiest prototype gets the patent. If that's the case, why prototype?

Prior Art?

[twistedsymphony]

Patents Filed in 1999 eh?

I guess that box sitting in my basement full of old Nintendo controlers would classify as prior art?

Re:Prior Art?

[RingDev]

Old nintendo controlers are digital, the directional and A-B buttons were either "on" or "off". These patents are for analog controls, which means they determine if a button is 0% down, 100% down, or anything in between.

-Rick

Re:Prior Art?

[Raistlin77]

So why not sue Sony as well - the PS2 came out in 2000 with the new controllers that had analog joysticks...

Re:Prior Art?

[UbuntuDupe]

Wasn't the GameCube and (original) Xbox already infinging then with their trigger button? I though those could be in-between. That would be infringing in 2001, and they're just now suing. Isn't there a time limit on how prompt you have to be in suing over a patent, like how they have statues of limitations in criminal law? (Yes, smarty, I know patent law isn't the same as criminal law.)

And why wait until 2-3 months before launch when they've known something like this for, what, 3-6 months (depending on what you count as the Wiimote's revelation)?

Re:Prior Art?

[deadmantyping]

Actually the Nintendo 64 (N64) featured an analog stick, in addition to the digital pads, and the N64 was released in (drumroll please) 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64) and it was publically introduced in 1995, so Nintendo can indeed claim prior art.

Re:Prior Art?

[SeanMon]

More relevant to this suit is the fact that the Dual-Shock controllers have pressure-sensitive analog buttons, a feature which was used in only a few games, including GT4.
See wikipedia.

Re:Prior Art?

[RingDev]

Good to know. I have never actually owned and "entertainment system", only computers. I borrowed a friends original Nintendo once for a few weeks, so that's what I'm familiar with. I have no idea on the release dates of any of the newer consoles.

-Rick

Re:Prior Art?

[steveo777]

Re-read the OP. Please. Then remember that the N64 had all of these technologies incorporated into it's controler. And that it was released in October of 1995. So there is no way this is going to make it past court. As far as anolouge buttons, I'm pretty sure Sony's the first to actually utilize those, and they're in quite a bit of trouble as it is with thier Dual-Shock.

Re:Prior Art?

[steveo777]

Sorry about that. Got sidetracked at work and hit post anyway. Then read the other response to your post.... So, you must have had a life or some imagination to have grown up without any video games.

Re:Prior Art?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have enough friends if you're not even rudimentarily aware of the last decade of consoles.

Re:Prior Art?

[freeweed]

We also had analog sticks in the 80s. Atari made some, plus a plethora of arcade units.

Re:Prior Art?

[ZakuSage]

Quite a number of my games used pressure sensitive buttons in a near-critical manner, including Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3. Twin Snakes on GameCube feels crippled in controls without it.

Re:Prior Art?

[Kamineko]

Vetrex has an analog stick.

A self righting one, too!

Re:Prior Art?

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you chase down the references the patents make to earlier applications (claiming an earlier invention date), you get to patent 5,589,828, with a filing date of March 1992. So Nintendo would have to show that the relevant portions of the asserted patents weren't in that original filing (or other filings earlier than 1995).

Re:Prior Art?

[Dormann]

The patents are referring to analog buttons.

The analog button features don't get a lot of use, but many modern console controllers actually know how hard you are pushing a button. I always found it entertaining that the classic-looking four-way d-pad on a PS2 controller actually had more "analog" granularity than the analog-looking controller next to it.

Re:Prior Art?

[Ant P.]

I wonder if these idiots have ever heard of an analog input device called a "mouse".

Re:Prior Art?

[cgenman]

Similar to, say, the analog buttons that shipped with Street Fighter 1 to the arcades in the 80's?

Yeah, no prior art there.

BTW, the analog buttons don't get much use in gaming because they're really not that consistent. Sure, they may report a few hundred distinct pressure levels, but the best you're getting out of them at any accuracy level is "pushed really hard," and "tapped kinda light." This harks back to both implementation-on-a-budget problems, and the problem that people just don't pay that much attention to how hard they press buttons.

Re:Prior Art?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps they licenced the 'technology' and bunged them a bti extra to bring this lawsiut...

Patent with no product using it?

[Yvan256]

Aren't patents supposed to be allowed only if the company actually has a product on the market using the patented feature?

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[Amouth]

Nope.. that would make sence..

all you need for a patent is an idea and money (if the idea isn't yours they don't care) - oh and there can't be prior art showing that you are faking it (but remember your the one that has to show them the prior art)

as far as i am concerned.. people need to get hung/shot for crap like this..

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[LowneWulf]

No. That would be nice, but I don't know of any country with such a law.

In fact many companies simply buy patents, being purely tech litigators and having no product or development or technical expertise.

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[DSW-128]

Alas, nope. My favorite example of late is an anti-gravity machine.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/11 11_051111_junk_patent.html

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[jomegat]

No, and I don't think that would be a good thing either. A few years back some guy invented a device that would detect when a table saw's blade was cutting something other than wood - such as a finger (or a hot dog in the demo).

He was not equipped to go into the business of making table saws and having to compete with the likes of Delta or Rigid, so he decided to try to license the patents to them. But they wouldn't bite, so he finally did have to go into the manufacturing business himself. Should he have been refused a patent? I don't think so.

If you introduce your product to the market before a patent is issued, aren't you opening yourself up to infringement? I think the usual path is to develop the product, patent it, and then either build and sell it, or license it out to someone else who can do that.

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[joystickgenie]

But he was in the process of selling the product. He was trying to sell his idea to the other companies. Having the product on the market does not necessarily mean just to the consumers selling it to manufacturer should count as well.

If after they refused to buy he just threw in the towel and never tried to get in the market again, then it should be fair game.

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[Abcd1234]

A lot of people have replied "No" to this, but it should be pointed out that the presence of a product on the market *can* (AFAIK) affect the amount in damages awarded.

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[jomegat]

Yeah, but then the only thing the people to whom he had tried to license it would have to do is stonewall until he gave up - then swoop in and use the technology. After all - it's "fair game."

Re:Patent with no product using it?

[MMaestro]

Except when the market for such a product becomes obvious, all a patent holder has to do it go to a bank and say, "Hey I've got this great idea and X company(ies) are simply trying to outlast me. If I actually go to the market with this product, I'll either make a killing or make a ton of cash when I get bought out. Its win-win!"

Theres a reason why patent trolls ARE called trolls. Currently a person can sit on a patent for DECADES without ever making a product and simply cash in on it later by suing companies that ACTUALLY make the product. Fast forward to today and you get cases like this. Don't delude yourself, companies really don't have the time, money or willpower to monitor the thousands of patents that are made everyday/week/month. Especially patents that are extremely vague.

6,208,271 "Remote Controller with Analog Button"

Wtf? Remote controls with analog buttons have been around for YEARS and NOW he sues them? And why not sue Sony as well? The Dual Shock controller has analog buttons (R3 and L3). Heck, I bet if you look hard enough you can find TV or DVD remote controllers with analog buttons.

broad patents

[foxhound01]

these patents don't seem all that specific, 'Analog Controls Housed with Electronic Displays' implies that putting a screen of any type, or an LED for that matter would be a breach of patent, i somehow think that this won't fly in court, especially with the kind of attorneys that microsoft and nintendo can afford. as for the other patents, i don't see much more substantial stuff there either.

Re:broad patents

[LargoSensei]

Wouldnt the PSP be subject to this with the analog stick it has? Mebbe some dirty tactics on sony's part?

Re:broad patents

[KDR_11k]

I can't even think of an instance where Nintendo or Microsoft combined analog input with a display in one device.

Re:broad patents

[enharmonix]

Probably not. The ill-fated Sega Dreamcast is prior art, and was out before both the PSP and this patent. The DC had an analog control stick, the memory card plugged right into the controller, and the memory card had a digital display that could react to input from the controller (via the console). This basically covers all the claims of the patent: analog input, embedded digital display. In fact, all their patents sound like stuff that had already existed at the time. It's a shame Nintendo & MS will probably determine its cheaper to settle/license/buy portfolio than to bankrupt these clowns in court.

Re:broad patents

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. It seems pretty silly to use grouping in a container as a form of "invention" - I mean, by this standard I could patent "An LCD Monitor Housed With A Computer Mainboard, Keyboard and Mouse" and then sue Compaq for making laptops. In fact, I could patent "A Computing Unit Housed With a Display" and pwn everything from iMacs to digital watches. What a neat idea.

THey have their own patents...

[madhatter256]

Nintendo clearly states the patent number their devices use. I am not sure about MS though. If these patents by the plaintiff were filed in 1999, but if Nintendo has patents on their analog joysticks then this case will be thrown out the window like the million other patent suits brought up against them. I need to hurry up and patent my invention called "Life" and then sue the whole world for patent infringement.

Re:They have their own patents...

[Admiral Justin]

If you're the inventory of life, that would make you God. Being God, you are hereby under arrest for billions of deaths throughout history. And the platypus.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[jizziknight]

With the negative reaction the first Wii games are getting

What? I've heard no such thing. Perhaps you should elaborate on this or, I don't know, link to some sort of proof?

what about Sony?

[thoughtlover]

My PS2 controller has analog pressure-sensitive buttons. Why were they excluded from the lawsuit?

What about any third-party that makes controllers using said technology?

Re:what about Sony?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"My PS2 controller has analog pressure-sensitive buttons. Why were they excluded from the lawsuit?"

Which buttons are those? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but they've always felt digital to me.

Re:what about Sony?

[DigiShaman]

The D-pad (up, down, left, right) is pressure sensitive as are the other buttons. I just finished playing Gran Turismo 4 last night. Pressure sensitive buttons are not just useful, but necessary in the game!

Re:what about Sony?

[Mr2001]

Just about every button is pressure-sensitive: X, circle, square, triangle, L1, L2, R1, R2, and the four D-pad directions. So in Gran Turismo 3, you can control your speed by how hard you press the gas button, and you can use analog steering without having to touch the analog stick.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

What negative reaction? I have heard nothing but positive feed back since E3 ended.

God I hate the patent system.

[Anonymous Coward]

6,208,271 "Remote Controller with Analog Button".

Make a controller with an analog button: No problem.
Make a controller which is wireless: No problem.

Make a controller which is wireless AND has an analog button: PATENT VIOLATION, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT!

The patent office's decision to spend very little money on approving each patent is costing industry and innocent bystanders gobs and gobs of money in unnecessary court fees. Will this ever stop?

Re:God I hate the patent system.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

"Make a controller which is wireless AND has an analog button: PATENT VIOLATION, YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT!"

There is no mention of wireless controllers in this article. You misunderstand what 'remote' means in this context.

Re:God I hate the patent system.

[Perseid]

This is going to be legalese double-speak, but strictly speaking the term 'remote control' does not imply wireless. My grandpa had an old stoneage TV that had a remote control with a wire running to the TV. And it called itself a remote control. So it is undeniable that remote controls with analog buttons in reference to "manipulating images" has been around since the 80s.

Re:God I hate the patent system.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no mention of wireless controllers in this article.

No, there isn't, which is why before I made my original post I went and looked up the actual patent on uspto.gov by the provided patent number. You can find the patent here, though I find hotlinking the uspto website rarely works so you may have to search yourself if you want to see. Here's the abstract, though:

A remote controller for controlling a host device, the controller including a housing, an electrical power source within the housing, electronic circuitry within the housing connected to the power source and including a radiation emitter to emit signals from the housing, a plurality of finger depressible buttons exposed on the housing and interfacing with sensors electrically associated with the circuitry. The buttons are for user selection of signals emitted for controlling a host device. At least some of the sensors are utilized only as momentary-On only On/Off sensors. At least one sensor(s) is a pressure-sensitive analog sensor structured for varying electrical conductance through at least three readable states or values. The readable states are dependant upon depressive pressure applied to the sensor(s) through finger depressible button(s). The circuitry is structured to read the readable states of the pressure-sensitive analog sensor(s) and to emit signals representing the state or value of the sensor(s). In one embodiment, the analog sensor(s) is/are elastomeric dome-cap sensor(s) including pressure-sensitive variable-conductance material positioned over proximal circuit elements of the circuitry. The analog sensors are preferably associated with selectable functions such as tuner channel changing as for televisions and supportive tuner devices, and video speed controls as for VCRs, DVDs and like recorded video players, and computers and audio and other like devices. Additionally disclosed are methods of use and manufacture.

Lots of weird verbiage there, but it seems quite clear to me a wireless or radio-control controlling device is being described there ("radiation emitter"). The claims are more explicit than the abstract and specifically reference previous "wireless hand-held remote controllers". I continue to stand by my assessment, based on my reading of the patent, that the way Nintendo and Microsoft would have violated that patent is in making wireless controllers with pressure-sensitive buttons.

Re:God I hate the patent system.

[Karem Lore]

Worse than that, it is costing you Americans jobs...Innovation is stifled, companies are fearful of investing in new research, employees are not hired/retained...watch your 4.8% unemployment rate keep rising...shame, real shame for the US.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Stick_Fig]

You don't know what you're talking about and somehow managed to get up from the surface from under your bridge. Not only does this suit have no merit, you didn't even post proof of what you're saying. Just some baseless claim.

Finally...

[AP2k]

...someone gets fed up with the absurdly stiff Xbox buttons.

Anascape Ltd. ??

[Chaffar]

What kind of company that has patents on GAME CONTROLLERS doesn't even have its own website ??

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Meh~" Is all I have to say about this opinion.

Its a sad state of affairs when..

[databank]

..It seems to make more sense to create a new department where you can apply for "unpatents" or prior art to prevent patent abuse then to try to revise the current patent structure....

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

sheesh, dude... your troll smells so much like desperate-sony-fanboyism ...you are the most pathetic being on earth... trolling your ass off for a already failed console.. which is a pc... which is a movie theater (hideo kojima) with a just plain ridiculous price tag... not just that... you use slashdot the decreasingly interesting site which didn't catch up to sites like digg or even google/news... you se slashdot to post your funny little amateurish troll about a console that sucks on a site that sucks... AND you got modded down as troll... can't you see how sad your life is? ...we can..

Ho ho ho-lee crap

[27,000]

Those are a lot of patents. Including some that I swear would be covered by the Immersion patents Sony and Microsoft have been successfully sued over, patents for 'tactile feedback' and 'vibrating' having been apparently upheld in court. Hey, as long as we have this many charges, can we throw RICO in there for flavor?

Move along...

[Ristol]

... nothing to see here but a troll. Seriously, I've heard a few bad things about Red Steel. But other than that everything has been all positive for Nintendo! The poster is correct in that Nintendo had better have their shit together for launch. All signs seem to be saying that they are already well on their way.

Re:Move along...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I've heard a few bad things about Red Steel"

What?

The entire game was sent back to the drawingboard after the initial massively negative reaction from gamers. You don't redesign a 10 million dollar budget game unless the negative reaction was huge.

Re:Move along...

[Ristol]

The 'massively negative reaction' was what I was refering to. I hadn't heard anything about the redesign yet.

Re:Move along...

[masklinn]

They basically redid the whole controlling thing, because E3 demo only had static moves triggered by your movements (forward thrust, diagonal slash, ... and so on) and that was considered crappy by all standards considering the flexibility of the wiimote.

So the Red Steel team got back to work to make swordfights fully free-movement instead of static triggered.

Well that's the revamp part I was the most interrested in at least, dunno if they redid anything else.

Re:Move along...

[Ristol]

That sounds wonderful, I hope they're able to make it work well. I might have to get it just for the swordfighting. I'm not usually into first person shooters but I might be into first person slashers.

Misleading title

[Chris Pimlott]

The article title makes it sound like Nintendo and Microsoft are suing each other, instead of both being sued by a third party. How about something like "Company sues Nintendo, Microsoft over Controller Patent"?

Re:Misleading title

[crabpeople]

whats nintendomicrosoft? oh theres a teeny tiny COMMA there. Thats a really bad headline from a reading point of view. I would use an 'and' not a comma. "Company sues Nintendo and Microsoft over Controller Patent". If thats too long, you could abreviate microsoft to M$. That would also spark at least a few +5 comments joking, commending or damming the use of the monkier.

im only replying to this becuase its slow ass friday and im really bored.

Hmm, meh...

[Easty1]

I don't think this'll hold water much in court. Nintendo and MS could definitely lawyer the crap out of this company (who seem to be unable to even afford a website)... However, I've heard that the only reason it was filed in Texas was because the judge there doesn't seem to give a shit (80% ruled in favour of the claimant, apparently), so it could be a problem. But it's pretty likely they'll settle, and avoid making the mistake Sony did with Immersion. Besides, I hereby patent 'A mechanism for the exchange of gases through human bronchial tubes into alveoli'. I better not see any of you bastards infringing my patent! *glares shiftily*

But wait theres more....

[madhatter256]

I also found this...

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6906700.html?high light=computer,games

According to the google summary. Patent was filed in 2000 and published in 2005. This is purely just another intended patent infrigement suit against a profitable company.

It is true that the patent system needs some updating because there are old fogies in there who are not up to date with what is going on outside their office walls. This is why you are hearing patent suits of this nature. Some are legitimate while some aren't, while some were clearly made to sue a profitable source. Other than that this is clearly a patent troll.

After a second, closer glance

[Tim_sama]

it appears that Microsoft is suing Nintendo over using the controller for the Wii in a new game where you throw chairs in order to attempt to create hype, claiming prior art. Steve Ballmer was unavailable for comment.

Re:After a second, closer glance

[Anonymous Coward]

The game:
- will be called "Ballmer: Battle of the Chair Masters".
- will be sold for the Xbox and will include a custom chair-shaped wireless controller.
- will be rated "M" by the ESRB but will still be sold to kids by Toys 'R Us and others.
- will have its top score on Xbox Live! be hard-coded to 16777215 points and assigned to an unknown player using the name "SB teh Chairmaster".

Re:After a second, closer glance

[Perseid]

Strongbad has an XBox Live! account? Nifty.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[masklinn]

The only Wii game that looks good and sounds fun is the new Mario.

Rayman 4: Raving Rabbids.

Period.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Perseid]

Yeah. Not only is this an AC troll, it's off-topic. But here I go.

Launch titles. Launch titles. They suck. Get used to it. You can't rightfully judge the quality of any system for at least a year after it's been out and this has been true for generations now.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

"...you use slashdot the decreasingly interesting site..."

So then why are you here?

Prior Art.

[Anonymous Coward]

one (compound) word. Dreamcast.

It had Analog shoulder buttons. Same as the Gamecube and Xbox.

who owes who money?

[silvermorph]

Wait, but if they're losing money on the consoles, does that mean the patent holder is entitled to negative cash? I wonder if Microsoft takes Paypal...

Injunction probable

[DeadCatX2]

I thought something was funny when I read about the suit being filed in East Texas.

According to techdirt, there's a federal judge in Marshall, Texas (a district in East Texas) who almost universally grants injunctions against patent infringers. Said judge is a favorite of patent trolls.

According to this pdf, the case is filed in...gasp...Marshall, TX.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[scot4875]

The phenomenon of launch titles sucking is relatively new. Just think back to:

Super Mario World
Super Mario 64

Arguably, two of the best games ever. It used to be that a new system brought with it amazing new games. Recently, new systems have just brought ... new systems.

--Jeremy

Remember, in the US, anyone can sue anybody

[WillAffleckUW]

for anything.

And it's sometimes used as a bargaining wedge to be "bought out" and rewarded with cash for a case that has no merits.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[WillAffleckUW]

that's why they have Super Mario Galaxy at launch

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Perseid]

Can you think of any other noteworthy launch titles besides those two games on those two systems?

Prior Art

[semiazas]

The original Capcom Street Fighter standup arcade game, which came out late 1987/early 1988 I believe, had analog kick and punch buttons that gauged the force of blow and would animate the game protagonist accordingly.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's Rayman. If history has told me anything, it'll suck.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Ant P.]

I wouldn't call a game with a 4 on the end a must-have title, let alone a Rayman game.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

frankly, Super Monkey Ball was an exceptional title, from the main game to all the mini games. Launched with the Gamecube.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

Armored Core 2

Let's see now,

[Sarreq Teryx]

analog controllers have been around since, let me think, 2-45*58 carry the 9 * cos20 = roughly about 50 years now. Can we all say "Patent Office Morons"?

"Variable Conductance Sensor"

[Anonymous Coward]

how is this different than a rheostat or potentiometer.

MOD PARENT UP

[ZakuSage]

How in the hell is this a troll? Twin Snakes controls really are just awful after you've played using pressure sensitivity in MGS2. WTF?

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

It's because Slashdot is full of frothing Nintendo fanboys.

Re:MOD PARENT UP

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah no shit. Twin Snakes is on GameCube, so if anyone says anything meaning anything Nintendo is not utter perfection on Slashdot, it's trolling. Fucking idiots.

Forget Controllers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget controllers! I'm going to patent the seven blade and eight blade razors. That's where the real money is.

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[d0nster]

Like Resident Evil 4?

Re:Nintendo's Console Strategy Falling Apart?

[Anonymous Coward]

Metroid and Zelda are Wii launch titles. Those two games alone should make for one of the best console launches in a while.

What if I don't use my finger?

[wikthemighty]

including an analog sensor for creating a varying analog value according to varying depression applied by a finger of a human user to the analog sensor.

Ha! I'm using my thumb!

Hmmm

[Sv-Manowar]

This motion sensor stuff is ridiculous... If I wanted to go through the motions of playing tennis or golf in my living room I'd go out and do it in real life. Video games are for vegging out on the couch and not moving.

Honestly if my FPS required me to wave my arms around to kill anything I wouldn't play it. The current controller has been around in various shapes for 30 years, and any weird new designs have failed, maybe that's for a reason?