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Net Neutrality Being Examined by FTC

elrendermeister writes to tell us Computerworld Security is reporting that the Federal Trade Commission has formed an Internet Access Task Force to evaluate the validity of claims that large broadband providers should be able to limit or block web content from competitors. From the article: "Chairwoman Deborah Platt Majoras on Monday also called on lawmakers to be cautious about passing a Net neutrality law, which could prohibit broadband providers such as AT&T Inc. and Comcast Corp. from giving their own Internet content top priority, or from charging Web sites additional fees for faster service. [...] 'While I am sounding cautionary notes about new legislation, let me make clear that if broadband providers engage in anticompetitive conduct, we will not hesitate to act using our existing authority,' she said. 'But I have to say, thus far, proponents of Net neutrality regulation have not come to us to explain where the market is failing or what anticompetitive conduct we should challenge.'"

20 of 176 comments (clear)

  1. Just because... by daeg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just because the behavior isn't there now doesn't mean that we should put off neutrality legislation until it becomes a problem. The easiest solution to any problem is to fix it now before it becomes a problem.

    1. Re:Just because... by Durrok · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is not the way goverment works at all though. Let the issue become a problem, let the problem become over blown, then either:

      1. Wait for an election year if it is an "election topic" (stem cells, flag burning, etc)
      2. Wait for a corporation to give you a large "donation" and then vote however they want you to.

      --
      I keep telling myself I'm not the desperate type.
    2. Re:Just because... by russ1337 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I heard someone was developing a Firefox plugin that could detect a 'non-neutral' connection. Once it hits mainstream, providers would probably be reluctant to slow down some 'tubes' for mass phonecalls to tech-support or customer migration to another provider etc.

      So how is that plugin coming along?

    3. Re:Just because... by DragonWriter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The FTC is largely anti-neutrality. The "there's no problem yet" attitude will, once the problem exists, likely be replaced with a "the problem doesn't justify the disruption that forcing companies to change established practices" stance once problems emerge (unless FTC members are replaced, first.)

      Of course, taking action before there was a problem would avoid the disruption, but the FTC is on the side of the people who stand to benefit from the "problems" that would be prevented.

    4. Re:Just because... by arodland · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because the behavior isn't there now doesn't mean that we should put off neutrality legislation until it becomes a problem. The easiest solution to any problem is to fix it now before it becomes a problem.

      No, it's not! The role of government is not to preemptively pass legislation against anything that might conceivably hurt someone. We have fair trade and "anti-trust" statutes on the books, with the ostensible purpose of preventing businesses from abusing monopoly powers to hurt their customers. We have a common law system in which, if someone performs some unjust action that injures you, you can be compensated for it. The notion that government should be there to protect you against any potential wrong by means of legislation is a very dangerous idea, and it's fostered by people who have their hands on some government power, and realize that they can gain even more power by expanding the scope of the government's responsibility.

      Need more to work with? Okay, this is Slashdot. We complain a lot about the TSA, right? How they put forth these regulations that are not only inconvenient, but actually useless at achieving their stated goals, right? But they do it to give the appearance of solving a problem. That's what the hypothetical "net neutrality commission" would be doing. Creating and enforcing regulations on the actions of internet carriers. They won't be beneficial to the providers, because of course the burden of proof will be placed on them to show that they're not doing anything "wrong". And they won't be beneficial to customers either, first because the system will be easily manipulated (this is gubmint, remember?), and second because the providers will demand additional fees to cover their new responsibilities. In fact, it won't benefit anyone, besides the "only fit for government work" people who will get jobs out of it. But it will make a vocal minority happy and give the appearance of "getting something done". It will convince daeg that they're "fixing it now beore it becomes a problem".

      Sound like a good deal?

    5. Re:Just because... by sleeper0 · · Score: 4, Informative

      After researching the subject of "net neutrality" I found that two considerably different definitions of the term are in use.

      The first is the idea of preventing providers from shaping or blocking traffic based on the source or destination corporate entity - ie making google traffic super slow while making msn traffic extra fast. This is obviously troubling and should be subject to oversight. A vast majority of consumer broadband is already subject to regulatory oversight though, either through city franchise agreements or through state PUC's. While I'd support federal laws to curtail this if needed, wouldn't it be better to let the existing structures work if they have the means?

      The second definition was in use heavily by the technical communities that are researching or providing data about net neutrality. This definition includes the first definition but also adds on basically any kind of traffic shaping or port blocking based on protocol or port, irrespective of the public WAN side source or destination. Examples of this are shaping to reduce the network impact of peering systems like bittorrent or other heavy users like NNTP and IPTV, and the policies blocking some services universally inside a tier such as not allowing inbound connections to server ports, outbound PPTP, VOIP over cellular data etc.

      Shame on those technical folks that are trying to substitute the second definition for the first, they should know better. Trying to legislatively micromanage decisions every provider has to make to make for network usability and completely banning all forms of QOS would be a serious mistake. While I'd be pretty upset if i woke up tomorrow and found i was unable to use VPN protocols, I'd rather have to complain to my city about the franchise or switch providers than end up with a situation where washington banned a whole set of core network management technologies that have been in use for decades without which the internet would be much worse off.

      Every study that i saw that included statistics or hard data actually fell under the latter definition and not the former. The reason is that it is relativey easy to detect port blocking and protocols that have different throughput characteristics and examples are fairly common. Trying to programatically detect shaping based on corporate entities or netblocks would be very hard unless it was extremely blatent - what are you going to do, measure connections to thousands of different content providers? Even then how could you tell if the bottleneck was put in place by your edge network or was just due to host side network capacity?

      I'd expect any browser plugin that was built would do the same. While it would be useful to know what blocking and shaping you are subject to, trying to group it under of the umbrella of anti-competitive practices is highly deceptive.

  2. Its all in the name. by flyingace · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Net neutrality" will be pass, as lawmakers would not want to appear "not-neutral". On the other hand if the bill was called, "internet expedited service" bill, lawmakers will feel whole lot differently about it.

    Just my 2 cents and hunch

  3. Re:Someone clarify by Wilson_6500 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Off the top of my head, here's one substantial difference. Television is strictly one-way communication, used to deliver a message to a segment of population (i.e. advertising). The Internet is two-way, capable of being used by nearly anyone for nearly any purpose.

  4. Re:Someone clarify by TheRequiem13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To build an analogy using cable TV it would be more like this:

    You pay for your providers full cable package, so you get all the channels. However, PBS has decided not to pay the "premium service fees" set by Big Cable, Inc., where as NBC has paid them plenty of money. You like PBS, and watch it a lot. Slowly but surely, the signal for PBS is getting fuzzier. You can still watch the shows, but the picture isn't as crisp as it is for NBC because Big Cable has decided he'd prefer your eyes on NBC, who pays them money. So he throws some noise onto the PBS frequency.

    That's what we need to prevent.

    --
    What?
  5. Only if it suits them by x3nos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    'While I am sounding cautionary notes about new legislation, let me make clear that if broadband providers engage in anticompetitive conduct, we will not hesitate to act using our existing authority,' she said. 'But I have to say, thus far, proponents of Net neutrality regulation have not come to us to explain where the market is failing or what anticompetitive conduct we should challenge.'

    Since when did the FTC all the sudden start taking this anti-legislation stance? So they will only legislate issues after-the-fact? Let Comcast, Verizon, AT&T bully the market, then we will see if we decide to do anything about it . . . right!

    The thing that net neutrality proponents are proposing is resistance to current talks of creating a tiered internet:

    "In essence, network neutrality regulations proposed by Senators Snowe and Dorgan[4] and Representative Markey bar ISPs from offering Quality of Service enhancements for a fee.
    --From Wikipedia

    --
    /* somewhat functional - fix later */
  6. Re:Someone clarify by Pulse_Instance · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Where I live Shaw already does something very similar to this. They insert a small bit of fuzz into the analog system so that you will upgrade to their digital system.

  7. Re:Someone clarify by daeg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because the spirit of TV and the spirit of the Internet are completely different. On the Internet, anyone can publish content. I can pay the same as my neighbor and play an online game of chess, read Slashdot, and check my investments. My neighbor can swap school photos with their family, get scrapbooking tips from an online community, and participate in chain letters of impending religious doom.

    It is commonly accepted that TV is a very difficult market to enter. My neighbor wouldn't have the capital to create a scrapbooking TV channel, but she could certainly start a scrapbooking Yahoo group.

    Tiered Internet does make sense -- but only if you tier based on application and not by content. In my opinion, VoIP should go quicker than HTTP. However, I don't want my ISP limiting my HTTP traffic by allowing google.com to come through unmetered, but at the same time limit money.cnn.com because Google decided to pay my ISP more.

  8. He who hesitates is screwed by jfengel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For me, the depressing part is "If broadband providers engage in anticompetitive conduct, we will not hesitate to act using our existing authority." I'm a free-market libertarian type much of the time, and my first thought on Net Neutrality is to exactly that: let them try breaking it and seeing if it the market wants it.

    But the FTC's version of "not hesitating" is to establish a blue-ribbon panel to look into setting up a commission to investigate the idea of setting up a web site to solicit people's opinions. Even if I trust the FTC to be acting in good faith, I worry that the cable/telco providers would have somewhere between one and five years to stomp certain web sites to death before the FTC is able to act on their "existing authority".

    I mean, how long has Microsoft been in antitrust litigation?

  9. Re:Someone clarify by xenocide2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it's along the lines of ISPs doing this without informing their customers what has happened. Their customers need not know that SBC extracted a heavy toll from YouTube or Google in order to deliver their video. And that even if you could know when your connection was tiered, no market offering would exist for an untiered connection. In other words, they're levying their massive subscriber base against people who profit from them having a decent internet connection, by holding it ransom. You'll note they aren't calling it anything like QoS, because that would imply that the offering has some level of reliability / quality.

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  10. You mean, "Swift" FTC Justice? by mpapet · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every time I see some ministry talking head say things like, "if there's a crime we'll prosecute!"

    1. Crime? what crime? You mean rapid delivery of internet service is a crime?
    2. Crime? What crime? The boss says put it on the back burner...
    3. Crime? No it's "market forces" delivering "better" service.

    And then there's the "swift" justice delivered in Microsoft's Monopoly conviction. A conviction is cold comfort if you're one of the guys they ran out of business.

    Oh yeah, they are on the case...

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  11. Re:Someone clarify by renehollan · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I pay to access the internet, not some part of it.

    The lack of net neutrality means that an ISP can prevent me from accessing content hosted by someone who uses a competing ISP unless I, or they, "pay extra". They're already "paying extra" to interconnect in the first place!

    Do we really want to reduce the internet to a bunch of transiently connected BBSes?

    --
    You could've hired me.
  12. Simple Solution by Desert+Raven · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In my opinion, the solution is simple.

    Any carrier that wants to restrict access loses their common carrier status. The providers are probably right to say they have the right to control their own networks. However, the minute they start controlling content, they should take responsibility for it. Common carrier status is all about not being responsible for/controlling what goes over the wires.

    I'm willing to bet if the FCC said "go ahead, but you lose common carrier status" none of us would ever hear another word about this.

  13. Open your eyes.... by himurabattousai · · Score: 5, Insightful
    "While I am sounding cautionary notes about new legislation, let me make clear that if broadband providers engage in anticompetitive conduct, we will not hesitate to act using our existing authority," she (Chairwoman Majoras) said. "But I have to say, thus far, proponents of Net neutrality regulation have not come to us to explain where the market is failing or what anticompetitive conduct we should challenge."

    I suppose something can't fail if it doesn't exist. "The market" only exists if there's a real choice of options, and when it comes to the U.S. version of broadband internet, "the market" has never existed on a meaningful scale. The choice is between either DSL from the bell-affiliated telco (which itself is most likely a monopoly) or cable from the likes of Comcast (or some other similar monopolistic cable TV company) or no higher speed access at all, with some places not even having both DSL or cable to choose from. That is not "the market" in the sense that Chairwoman Majoras would like to seem to be talking about.

    If the comments of Chariwoman Majoras are to be believed, we should soon see the government investigating behavior itself has allowed. That would be rather interesting, and I'd tune in to see the feds stumble over their tongues trying to legitimately explain why having so few real choices in paid TV service/broadband service/land line phone service benefits me. I'd like to see why the companies that provide these services are so damn sacred that their acts can't even be challenged. I want to know why it is that government-funded and supported companies are allowed to even think that they have the right to tell me what sources of information I can and cannot seek. That, more than anything, is how I view the debate.

    --
    "osake no hou ga, biiru yori ii" to omotteiru.
  14. A Matter of Diversity of Choice for Consumers by GnuTzu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Hey Government!

    If there must be a Tiered Internet (and I fear we won't have a choice), then:

    1. We'd like a public standard for the protocols involved.
    2. We don't want corporations mucking up the standards with proprietary sneakiness.
    3. We don't want proprietary sneakiness protected by the DMCA or some other Corporate biased regulation.

    Oh yes; the DMCA will become a big part of this.

    The quality of the Free Market is not measured by how easy it is for Corporations to regulate the market.
    The quality of the Free Market is a matter of the diversity of choices that are available to consumers.

    I have no problem with a Tiered Internet that gives us more choices;
    I have a problem with anything that allows Corporations to reduce the number of choices;
    especially, if they gain control of the regulatory agencies.

    Here comes the New FCC.

    --
    { return clarity; }
  15. The real issue here is VOIP by melted · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is all about VOIP, folks. Telcos try to stop VoIP it's plain and simple. It's not Google or Yahoo who's the target here, not even Youtube. Those companies won't be screwed much if their traffic was deprioritized by a little. VoIP on the other hand becomes unusable the second you deprioritize its realtime traffic. So telcos think they can keep their cell, landline and voip customers to themselves by deprioritizing traffic of other VoIP companies or making them pay through the nose (thereby making their rates less competitive).