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Does WoW Influence Warhammer Online?
OGX writes "While old school geeks & gamers know that Warhammer predated Warcraft, there are many MMORPG fanatics these days that don't know the history of both franchises, and comment that Warhammer Online resembles World of Warcraft. OGX has an article about this very question with some input from Mark Jacobs (Studio GM EA Mythic, VP EA)." From the article: "This history factors heavily in the present situation wherein the Warhammer Online game looks, to many, to be a descendant of the success of World of Warcraft in a market filled with many games trying to be just that. It's easy to see how this confusion would arise, and I asked Mark Jacobs, Studio GM EA Mythic, VP Electronic Arts, to share his thoughts about the situation." Warhammer may have influenced WoW, but WHO's interface still looks like a WoW rip-off to me.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/04/10 So no, I didn't RTA, and I don't know much about either WoW or Warhammer. But the comic fits!
It is pretty stupid for Warhammer Online to even be considered. Warhammer 40000 is about twice as popular as Warhammer, and will not be a direct, very similar competitor to the most successful MMORPG in the history of Earth. It is rumoured that Blizzard even tried to do a deal with Games Workshop to get Warhammer IP for Warcraft, but were declined as GW thought they could do it themselves. Blizzard now make more money from WoW in a month than GW make per year (in turnover, by profits it is an even more ridiculous diffence). GW are known for fairly terrible management and until it is changed or updated they deserve what they get. The best example is the fact that they conduct almost NO market research at all, claiming it is alright not to worry since they are a niche market (and they even state this on their investor relations pages!)
Warhammer forums
If I recall currectly, the orginal warcraft games were heavily influences by warhammer (Failed to get the rights to use the "Warhammer" from games-workshop I believe). So as far as characters, fiction etc. No. As for the interface, likely. But then again, if it works why change it? (Law suit isn't the answer:P)
"I may be full of crap about this game, and I may be wrong, and that's fine." -Jack Thompson
Interesting that the timeline in the article doesn't mention Dungeons and Dragons.
Given that Games Workshop was at one time the sole importer of D&D into the UK (prior to the design of Warhammer) I think I'd be quite confident in alleging they were influenced by it.
No. Everyone knows that game designers never, ever, borrow ideas from other games.
Here's your sign.
I've always figured that everybody knew that Blizzard 'stole' ideas from GW. My, how times have changed.
oh dear god I hope not.
disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
I would say that if you're creating a MMO game today and you're not heavily influenced by what WoW did right (and also paying close attention to what has gone wrong with WoW) you're going to produce a very unpopular product. WoW was the first MMO game that created an experience where anyone could play to the level cap and have a lot of fun doing it; there was tons of content that anyone could complete and very little of the game required you to group (or, in particular, be in the perfect group; my least favourite moments in games like DAoC were being excluded from a group because I was an enchanter). If you're like most MMO game developers and you listen too heavily to the most 'hard-core' 5% of your population you will create a game that is loved by 10% of your target market; if (on the other hand) you target the middle 50% of gamers you'll capture a huge chunk of your potential market.
Yes. Next question?
At this point, the MMORPG market is basically WoW with a few outliers. I'm sure I'll get some EVE Online heat for that comment, but it's true. For much of the population, "MMORPG" is defined to be "World of Warcraft" the same way RTSes were defined by Starcraft. Blizzard has a knack for taking what's great in all its competition, putting it in one spot, and polishing it to a mirror shine. It's what they do.
Game developers aren't stupid. They see the phenomenal success of WoW and know that if they want to compete they have to provide at least the same level of play as their competitor (to get the former WoWers like me) and hopefully surpass their competitor (to get current WoWers). So, WAR takes the UI from WoW and probably steals a few of its other features to ease the transition until they get you hooked.
WAR is hoping provide a PvP alternative to WoW, which primarily focuses on PvE. Even low-level WAR quests involve some form of competition with the opposing faction. One preview I read had a Giant who you would either (a) get drunk to help fight for you against the other faction, or (b) destroy the first faction's alcohol to prevent the giant from getting drunk and thus fighting against you. And that was a newbie quest.
I'm hoping that the WAR team (BTW, that's their preferred acronym, for "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning") delivers on its promises. Give me WoW with a heavy focus on PvP and Realm-vs-Realm and they'll get my money for a few months.
Does anyone really care? They're all too busy playing, surely...
Warcraft is quite obviously a ripoff of Warhammer. Similarity of interface in one particular game is nothing in comparison to what Blizzard have done to Games Workshop.
All three major Blizzard properties are rip-offs of someone else's ideas. Diablo was a rip of Rogue (and all Rogue-alikes everywhere); Warcarft was a rip of Warhammer; and Starcraft was a rip of Warhammer 40,000.
Big deal, I say. It's not like Games Workshop didn't draw on others' ideas too -- Moorcock and Herbert being prime examples. A messianic god emporer? Gosh, where could that have come from? This is the way it's supposed to work. Inspiration breeds inspiration. It's not so much "your" idea as it is your little twist on all the ideas you've absorbed from other people. You don't "own" it, because the person you got your ideas from didn't "own" theirs either. This stuff's not supposed to be locked down and inaccessible. If it was, we'd never have got Warhammer or WoW or any of the rest of it.
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
Incoming 'truthiness' reference in 3.. 2.. 1..
Blerg.
Let someone else innovate, avert the risk and then evaluate the best of their efforts and offer a more refined product.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
Ok guys for those that do not know. What became the "Warcraft" and "Starcraft" series both started as "concepts" and "demo" versions that they sent to Games Workstop for a computerized version of the Warhammer and Warhammer40000 game systems. GW said no because they felt that they could do either a better job or for some other reason (possibly the whole, we didn't make it thus don't like it mentality). Blizard felt that they had a good thing going, so they changed some things around slightly and still continued creating/developing the games under the new name of "Warcraft" and "Starcraft". And so you have it, the reason they seem similar is because the whole idea of the warcraft and starcraft games to begin with was to be the computer versions of Warhammer and Warhammer40000.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
But Blizzard also bought the blame when they bought the company. So yes, you can.
But your highlighting of "powered" armor reminded me of something that I wanted to share. When I first read Starship Troopers, I misread the first mention of powered armor as "powdered armor" -- you know, just add water. I thought it was an interesting concept, but I wasn't quite sure what the point was. Of course, I figured it out by the time they actually started using the stuff. Personally, though, I want one of Ringo's Armored Combat Suits. :)
Zonk:
As per the subject. Choad.
The MMO industry is based on ripping competitors off. WoW ripped Mythic's own Dark Age of Camelot's PvP system off pretty wholesale.
It's a market with limited ideas, so the best you can do is take the best parts of what's out there and put it all together, maybe add a cool widget or two to stand out. Blizzard did a pretty good job of that, and they've done pretty well by it.
I think the success of Wow will irrevocably influence every MMORPG ever created from this point forward.
Uh, so why not make a 3rd person shooter MMORPG? Is it really all that different from what we've got now with "turn based" FPS games?
.45acp or vice versa? Do you make Glocks and 1911s jam/misfire equally? Which do you make more accurate? The company that pays the most money, or simply charge them a base "you get the gun in the game ofr this amount of money"? I would think the companies would want some sort of guaranteed market return and impression amount... that'd certainly be the tricky part.
You could nix the projectile pathfinding woes (and aimbots) pretty easily by simply having 'autoaim' by default. Basically, the aiming system used by third-person shooter games like GTA: the person controls the movement, target equisition, and when to fire, making it seem like you've got finite control, but the actual attack communication is pretty much just "player X attacks player Y with Z weapon for Z(skill_level) damage".
What I want: Mixed environment (urban/suburban/rural) SHTF/TEOTWAWKI MMORPG. Guns, survival rations, biker/ghetto/improv gangs to try and avoid/kill, terrorists, corrupt cops, municipal failures and dangers, (minimal) wild animals, etc. Sure, you've got the "fighting people" issue, but IMO you could make it interesting and engaging by making the progress determined by passed obstacles which may or may not involve people. IE, you gain XP by getting onto the other side of the river when the bridge is out. It's a fantasy world that blurs with reality making it damn addictive, and the array of weapons and tools can be broad. Not only that, but they then appeal more because, well, "for only $800 I could have one of these super blitzen boomer guns myself!"
And the great thing is, you could probably have it be (near) profitable before launch due to advertising. Unlike the realm of fantasy games or games like AO where the advertising is distracting and doens't fit in, the advertising in such a game would be a custom fit. Think about it: Smith and Wesson, Glock, Remington, Bushmaster, Black and Decker (as it'd be goal oriented, tools would be just as useful as weapons), various shoe companies (Nike, boot companies, hiking gear ocmpanies), automobile - 4-wheeler, motorcycle, car, truck - companies, outdoor gear companies in general... you name it. Coke or Pepsi billboards? Lo'orial (that makeup copmany)? Go for it! You could probably have those companies even help you with creating the models, skins and effects for their product because, hell - they want to have an impressive product display in the game, right?
How you'd market it to the companies is tricky, because then you'd run into "glock is better than 1911 pistols" type arguments, and would 9mm do more damage than
In my mind, such a game would have no real game path; things like alignment and class would not be purely artificial. Alignment could be determined by your character's appearance and affiliation (does he wear gang colors? is she in a cop uniform? etc.). Classing would, in my mind, be purely skill based, and determined by what you decide to make your charactre do. Want to be good at making things? Have the character make things. Good at shooting? Start fights a lot (though, there'd be a definate penalty for dying, to make such a character path more difficult and to make it so that a person couldn't become an ubersoldat).
Hell, throw in some zombies and you're fucking set.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
i applaud blizzard for most of what they have done, but i also appreciate the original for what it offered; where would the copy/copies be (or would they even be?) without the original(s)?
my hat is off to you inventors of great themes/systems/ideas/engines.
It's going to be almost impossible for any future MMO to be successful while not borrowing ideas from WoW. It has become the template for success in the MMO market. With 6 million+ subscribers, they must be doing something right.
The real ironic part is that most of the original Warcraft lore was almost blatantly lifted from Warhammer all those years ago.
I agree. Maybe Im just old, all of 33yrs, but 17 yrs ago we used to play warcraft with paper and dice. It was called Warhammer. When we played with a keyboard, it was called MUDS. I played and still own Warcraft 1, and 2, and all WoW is, is an upgrade of Everquest, and WAR is an upgrade of WoW, with 10 more yrs or so, of history and followers.
What is a generation in gamers? 2yrs? 5yrs? The question of Warhammer(remember minis and dice kids?) riding on the wake of Warcraft(the "Sims" of wargaming) is stupid, for a lack of a better term. Everyone seems to talk of Wow, as if Blizzard started it all, but they would almost certainly be putting out games like Warcraft 1, and 2, if it wasnt for Everquest! They just improved on an idea that was already there. So, I say its about time Games Workshop stepped up, and "put in their 25yrs worth of XPs", taking this genre to the next level, and possibly improving on it. If this "generation" of gamers are worried about WAR stealing from WoW, and we're skipping WoW taking from EQ, then the mythos and history of gaming are in a sad state. Games Workshop is a godfather to this industry, and deserves a little more respect than to be called "leaches"
Does it matter?
What is suspicious is that just when WoW became popular, GW decided that there needs to be a Warhammer Fantasy (the version noone gives a damn about) MMORPG that takes its MMO implementation mostly from WoW (WH wasn't an MMORPG so Bliz could hardly have stolen those parts from WH). I mean, why not WH40k? Everyone would love that, if just for the change of setting from the MMO-standard Tolkienesque (Tolkien invented Orcs, the mythological figure is the Ogre) to futuristic. After all, they cancelled Imperator to make room for WAR.
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
ALL games borrow from each other just like every single form of media ever invented by humans. Who the hell cares if your Warcraft is "better" or "more original" than Warhammer, or vice versa? I think a certain man named J.R.R. Tolkien might have something to say about that... well, if he were still around.
Seriously - who the hell has time to even think up this crap?
I sig, therefore I am.
ALL fantasy (books, film, TV, table games, RPGs, video games, MMOs, etc. ad infinitum) "borrow" from the root sources: mythos.
I don't know the truth and I doubt it will ever be revealed, but it sounds like Blizzard offered Games Workshop a video game to evolve their tabletop game and GW declined. Blizzard therefore changed the content enough to make it original by legel terms and ran with it all the way to multiple banks. This can definitely be seen as "borrowing" IP but recreating it in your own fashion. I'd compare this to me trying to paint the Mona Lisa. Sure there are some similarities, but you would definitely see my differences and personal artistic style.
GW in their turn "borrowed" from Dungeons & Dragons and all the spinoff franchises (books, artwork, cartoons, figures, etc.) to fashion their own IP.
Gary Gygax will freely admit he and Dave Arneson were completely influenced by J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth books. They, too, fashioned their own IP.
While I gladly accept the title of "Father of Modern Fantasy" bestowed upon Tolkien, in any of his biographies it is well known that he drew his ideas from numerous resources: C.S. Lewis, religion, Norse mythos and Finnish mythos. He gave England a bolder, more legendary history to counter the only other fantasy that existed at the time: fairies. While you may see pieces similar to legends and other stories, it is unarguable that the compilation is original and completely Tolkien's.
Finally all of that mythos, regardless of the country, came from the collective story telling, exaggeration and imagination of our ancestors as they sat in the dark, pondered the meaning of life and tried to explain what they didn't understand.
So what we're now playing and will be playing in the future are just extensions and evolutions of those original stories told around fires. The only reason this becomes an argument of who owns what or who created what is because of another evolution, the legal system. MMO's are just another form of storytelling, one in which we get to play a part and be involved in the story. Who knows what form storytelling may take in the next century.