Slashdot Mirror


Lockheed Martin Wins Contract to Build Mars Lander

Lord_Slepnir writes "Lockheed Martin has won a contract to build the Orion crew exploration vehicle that will eventually take humans to the moon and then on to Mars. This vehicle will hopefully also replace the aging space shuttle fleet. According to NASA the vehicle will have manned missions by 2014 and moon missions by no later by 2020."

20 of 258 comments (clear)

  1. great by User+956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lockheed Martin has won a contract to build the Orion crew exploration vehicle that will eventually take humans to the moon

    Great, the US will finally make it to the moon.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:great by mordors9 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      clever truncation of the sentence. The point is we are finally getting back into real exploration. If we have to make some runs to the moon to get to mars, then fine. I think it is great that we are getting back into the manned exploration of the solar system. I think that most of us that remember the 60's and 70's thought we would be well past the point we are at now.

    2. Re:great by oringo · · Score: 4, Informative

      I recently listened to a NASA workshop on the difficulties of landing human on Mars. It basically come down to this:

      1. To land human on Mars, the current landing vehicles for MER and MSL are too small. We need to deliver at least 200t-300t's of payload.
      2. The atmosphere on Mars is too thin to use aero-braking, i.e. can't land like space shuttle on earth.
      3. The Mars gravity is too great to have moon-like landing, i.e. reverse propulsion.

      I don't mean to sound too pessimistic, but with today's technology, chance of successful human mission is very small. We need a technology breakthrough in order to land something that big on Mars. Two possibilities:

      1. Parachute that can stand hyper-sonic speed wind. Or,
      2. Learn how to fly rockets backwards with sidewinds potentially 5x-10x stronger than that of Hurricane Katrina.

    3. Re:great by sunmicroman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So really...why do we need to go there?

      Because we can.
    4. Re:great by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 4, Interesting
      So really...why do we need to go there?

      Want fuel? Dip-scoop the outer surface of Jupiter for enough "fossil fuel" to last us forever. Send one per year; might take 10 years to get the first balloon full back, but after then you'd have one per year -- a tank of arbitrary size, full of burnable, polymer-able methane.

      Unless you really believe in voluntary population control, sustainable ecosystems and the Tooth Fairy to keep us alive as a planetary population, in which case I can't help you.

      ..but where are they now?

      Their descendents became you. I wonder what went wrong.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    5. Re:great by Hellburner · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wish I had mod points.

      Opta ardua pennis astra sequi.

      "There is no strife, no prejudice, no national conflict in outer space as yet. Its hazards are hostile to us all. Its conquest deserves the best of all mankind, and its opportunity for peaceful cooperation many never come again. But why, some say, the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why, 35 years ago, fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas?

      We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

      It is a far better use of our energy than immolating each other while arguing about god.

      Sign me up. I'll dig ditches for the launch pad if that's what it takes for me to be involved.

  2. Technology Love you long time by virtuald · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Anyone notice that with less technology, it takes 10 years to get to the moon. But with more technology, it takes 2 decades. Hmm...

    Of course yes, there is a whole different social reason to go there and whatever, and times have changed..

    1. Re:Technology Love you long time by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      1. This system is of a much larger scale than the old one.
      2. The relative budget is much, much smaller - 18B vs 135B (in 2006 dollars).
      3. Space technology has not advanced as quickly as most people think it did or assume that it should. New structural alloys tend to only offer marginal improvements or cost reductions, and chemical fuels are already pretty stressed. Those being the dominant elements in rocket performance, plus the low number of new systems developed each year to the point of testing, plus political/economic pressure leading to frequent abandoning of projects mid-development or the use of craft that justly should be considered prototypes as workhorses, cause only slow downward price trends.

      Does answer your questions?

      --
      Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
    2. Re:Technology Love you long time by saskboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Times sure HAVE changed. What used to be a time filled with heroes that inspired a generation of space travellers, has now become a time where going to a space station is a big deal, or looking at yet more pictures of Mars on the Internet. They are impressive feats, but not something that children think is really unusual and the stuff from movies and comics. I don't think there are as many people interested in seeing humans expand into space, and that's a shame. One only has to look at the volunteers at NASA's launches for evidence.
      Lockheed Martin is a company with no human scruples, and is responsible for the wrecks out patrolling the US coast now with inferior designs. I'm sure most Slashdotters saw the Lockheed Martin contractor turned Whistleblower concerning YouTube videos condemning the company and Homeland Insecurity's blind eye to his list of ship problems.

      --
      Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
    3. Re:Technology Love you long time by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      Correction: 18B$ is the price that craft development is predicted to rise to, not the entire program, which is $104B. Still, we're trying to do such a massive program on the cheap.

      --
      Son, a woman is a lot like a refrigerator. They're six feet tall, 300 pounds... they make ice... umm...
    4. Re:Technology Love you long time by misleb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Going to Mars isn't exactly trivial, ya know. I think a lot of people (especially slashdotters) vastly underestimate the resources it takes to make a safe trip to space... particularly outside of Earth orbit. For one thing, Mars has a lot more gravity than the Moon, so landing there and then taking off again become much more complicated.

      Look how much time and effort goes into just a Mars probe. How many of them have actually made it? Now, add in life support and a return vehicle and you have a pretty daunting task ahead of you.

      --
      "THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
    5. Re:Technology Love you long time by MindStalker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Two more things,
      1. Greater concerns for safty
      2. Goal isn't just to land on the moon, but create a system where moon landing, and moon bases are commonplace.

    6. Re:Technology Love you long time by ipfwadm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's a theory of mine that the lack of interest in space exploration is at least partially due to light pollution obscuring our view of the night sky. Whenever I find myself in a really dark place (and living in the northeast US, such places are hard to come by) I always look up in wonder. I can just lie down and stare up at the stars for hours. Looking at the hazy glow of the Milky Way, watching satellites go by and shooting stars streaking across the sky... it's hard to not be interested in finding out more about what's up there. But in many cities it's hard to even see the Big Dipper. It's not surprising people have no interest in space when many of them don't have a connection to it anymore.

  3. Outside the box creativity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    "NASA told the contractors to build a capsule that looks just like Apollo"

    Extra points were awarded to Lockheed for their proposal to use vacuum tubes.

  4. Title is wrong: Contract not for "Mars Lander" by FleaPlus · · Score: 5, Informative

    The title of this story is wrong -- Lockheed Martin just won the contract for the Orion Crew & Service Module (CSM). The CSM is the party which will transport astronauts around in space, and land them back on Earth. The actual lunar lander, the Lunar Surface Access Module (LSAM), hasn't had its contract awarded yet, to say nothing of a "Mars Lander."

    Of course, all this is rather confusing. I follow space news more closely than most, and I often get confused myself. Fortunately, Wikipedia's article on Project Constellation (the overall architecture) has a nice overview of what all the pieces are and how they fit together.

    That said, I really wish that NASA would spend this money on the Commercial Orbital Transportation Systems program instead, accomplishing the same objectives in a more cost-effective manner. With COTS, companies only get paid if they succeed. NASA will instead be spending $3.9 billion (assuming there aren't cost overruns) just to get a capsule, while giving a total of $500 million (split between 2 companies) to COTS in order to get both rockets and capsules. To top it off, the COTS vehicles are scheduled to be completed years before the Lockheed Martin capsule is ready.

    The Space Frontier Foundation has an interesting whitepaper arguing for why COTS should get they money instead of the Orion program.

  5. Re:Umm, why? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is the age old debate that killed the Apollo program in the 1970's. People asked the same basic question, "Why spend all this money to go to the moon. We've been there done that. We have starving people still on earth and wars and other bad things we could solve." There is also a voice withing the scientific community, most notably comming from Carl Sagan, that robots can do it faster, cheaper, and arguably better.

    If NASA went totally robotic, yes they may learn things, but public interest and their budget to do such missions would shrink as a few nerdy folks in the bowls of mission control would actually care.

    Case in point: the current mars rovers that are STILL going around Mars. Spirit and Oppertunity have been wildly sucessful way beyond their initial expectation, yet when was the last time you heard a news report about how well the mission as gone? The arguement goes, the less the public sees pretty pictures (like from hubble) or having people fly the missions, the less the public cares. The less the public cares, the more funds go else where to other things and missions continue to scale back.

    Frankly, NASA's $15B budget is meager considering they are one of the few outfits that spends money on Basic Research. Basic research is what yields new technologys that help keep the economy going and improves daily life. It's thinks like that that yielded us many of the devices we use every day. I'm not going to go into them all, but you can read other posts about it.

    Here is my arguement.

    Fact: If humanity is going to survive, we have to get off this rock.

    Also, given the times, sending people to the moon and mars is something that could be used to rally people together. Let's face it, there is a lot of bad things on the horizon. Militant Islam is going to be a problem until enough brave men stand up instead of doing nothing. (I'm sorry, but there are some things going on now that rhymes, as Mark Twain would say, with what happened in the 1930's.) Also you have new global economic battlelines being drawn between the US, EU, and China. With all that going on, reaching for the stars is something, if sold to the people, could turn things around.

    Then there is this: if not us, who? The Chinese? Frankly the Chinese would be the type to land on the moon and start mining for resources and say: "Screw the moon treaty, what are you going to do about it?" The Europeans? So far they've had no interest in doing so... If the US gets back to the moon and keeps the mentality of using it for exploration and scientific purpose, it continues a presenant that is hard to break politically.

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  6. We do NOT need to send 300 tons to Mars! by unixj · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This is a myth. We only need to send 6 tons of liquid hydrogen and a small reactor. In a 2-step process you can use this to create 108 tons of fuel.

    1. CO2 (from atmosphere) + 4 H2 (from Earth) -> CH4 (rocket fuel) + 2 H20
    2. 2 H20 (from 1) -> 2 H2 (feed back into 1) + O2 (oxygen for rocket fuel)

    You fly to Mars with just enough fuel to get you there, create your own fuel from the Martian atmosphere, and fly back. To make things less risky, we send the first one unmanned, so there's a return vehicle on the surface of Mars all fueled up when humans arrive.

    The 300 tons is only if you insist on bringing the fuel for your return journey along with you.

    This is clearly described in The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin. Surprised more people haven't read that.

    1. Re:We do NOT need to send 300 tons to Mars! by DerekLyons · · Score: 5, Informative
      This is a myth. We only need to send 6 tons of liquid hydrogen and a small reactor. In a 2-step process you can use this to create 108 tons of fuel. You fly to Mars with just enough fuel to get you there, create your own fuel from the Martian atmosphere, and fly back. To make things less risky, we send the first one unmanned, so there's a return vehicle on the surface of Mars all fueled up when humans arrive.
      And now, as Paul Harvey says, for the rest of the story. The part Zubrin and his cabal won't tell you...
       
      This process has never been tested beyond the laboratory workbench. There are a large number of very significant hurdles to getting such a system operational on the Martian surface. Among them - insulation; Mars has enough atmosphere that MLI won't work, and this means large, bulky and difficult to handle tanks for receiving the output product. Another is filtering the input feed (to get rid of the atmospheric dust), as well as keeping the filters themselves clean. Etc... Etc... No obvious showstoppers I admit, but some very definite steep hurdles.
       
       
      This is clearly described in The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin. Surprised more people haven't read that.

      Many people have read The Case For Mars - many of those have gradually come to understand how much of that book is smokescreens, handwaving, and wishful thinking. Robert Zubrin has a very bad habit of assuming that coming up with clever schemes means that implementation is a simple straightforward thing - even when they represent quantum leaps over existing technologies.
    2. Re:We do NOT need to send 300 tons to Mars! by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How much Hydrogen could be collected on the way?

      --
      Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    3. Re:We do NOT need to send 300 tons to Mars! by unixj · · Score: 4, Informative
      How much Hydrogen could be collected on the way?

      Much less than the amount of CH4 the astronauts produce along the way.

      Back of envelope calculation

      • Density of H atoms in solar system ~ 1 atom/cm^3
      • Distance Earth to Mars ~ 1 AU = 23000 Earth radii = 23000 * 6400 km = 10^13 cm
      • Area swept by spacecraft ~ 100 m^2 = 10^8 cm^2
      • Volume swept by spacecraft = 10^21 cm^3
      • Number of H atoms = 10^21
      • Avogadro's constant = 10^24
      • Number of H atoms in moles = 0.001
      Mass of H atoms = 0.001 grams