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Crypto Snake Oil

An anonymous reader writes "Luther Martin of Voltage Security has published an article about the perception of cryptography today with regards to quality and honesty in vendors. From the article: 'Products that implement cryptography are probably credence goods. It requires expensive and uncommon skills to verify that data is really being protected by the use of cryptography, and most people cannot easily distinguish between very weak and very strong cryptography. Even after you use cryptography, you are never quite sure that it is protecting you like it is supposed to do.'"

56 of 215 comments (clear)

  1. Snake Oil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Snake oil is a traditional Chinese medicine used for joint pain. However, the most common usage of the words is as a derogatory term for medicines to imply that they are fake, fraudulent, and usually ineffective. The expression is also applied metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality.

    'nuff said

    1. Re:Snake Oil by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality.

      Like a religion?!
      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  2. Still not too bad by legoburner · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even though in many cases this might be true, and product prices are increased because of it, weak encryption is a lot better than no encryption at all. There are many people out there who might go as far as casual data theft (eg; taking someone at their school's USB memory stick), but even a weak layer of encryption will stop all but those who know what encryption is and where to start breaking it.

    1. Re:Still not too bad by TCM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not so sure. Once a flawed implementation has been broken, there will be tools to crack it.

      Take WEP for example. I personally wouldn't know how to crack it. But others do. They develop tools. Et voila, today it's trivial to download some tool and break WEP, even for novices.

      Weak encryption is never good and should be strongly discouraged.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    2. Re:Still not too bad by Panaflex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      WEP is still a great example... it's enough of a pain that if given the choice between breaking a WEP connection and using an open WAP - well, you'll choose the open one.

      In that case, WEP really does work for most people.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    3. Re:Still not too bad by Snarfangel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm not so sure. Once a flawed implementation has been broken, there will be tools to crack it.

      Plus, if there is *no* encryption, people are less likely to put sensitive information in the application.

      To use an analogy, consider two locker rooms. Room A does not have locks on any of the lockers. Room B has locks, but all of them have the same combination. In which one is a person more likely to leave their wallet?

      --
      This tagline is copyrighted material. Please send $10 for an affordable replacement.
    4. Re:Still not too bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would say that there is an inverse relation (at least somewhat) between price of crypto software and real security.

      The cheaper the software is, the greater the number of people who could have peer-reviewed it for correctness. The more open the software, likewise.

      Really expensive software could only have been peer-reviewed by a small number of people, while free, open source software could have been reviewed by a huge number of people.

      I recently was asked to recommend a way for my CEO and several other executives to securie thier IMs. I recommended gaim + gaim-encryption because it was all open source and free, so if there were a flaw in the crypto implementation, it would likely have been discovered already.

      I also made sure the CEO knew that he was using open source software, and I told him why. He was totally down with it :-)

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    5. Re:Still not too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately this is a flawed approach. A million people may have read it, but if none of them were cryptographers than it was no better than if nobody had read it. What's really important is _who_ has read the code, not how many.

    6. Re:Still not too bad by abhi_beckert · · Score: 2, Informative

      Peer reviewed does not equal security. It could be there are several known flaws in something that's had "peer reviews", or it could be the system is totally open but hasn't been around long enough to be tested thoroughly, or maybe it's been around forever but is now using a faster alogorithm that hasn't been proven to be secure...

      If you want security, ask an authority on the matter rather than basing it on inderect things like price, openness, etc.

    7. Re:Still not too bad by Panaflex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, lets say you're strolling around and looking to hook some free internet connection, eh?

      In the amount of time it takes to walk to the nearest open WAP, you probably couldn't grab enough packets to break WEP.

      But if your intentions are, ohh I don't know.. say DARKER. Then yes, WEP is not going to protect the target of your GRISLY, ABYSMAL ABOMINATION of h4x0ring.

      I leave my WAP open.. because it reminds me that no communication is secure unless I MAKE it secure. I don't rely on the router or anything else to protect me - only well tested protocols and applications.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    8. Re:Still not too bad by nxtw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why would you want to use WEP when on most routers WPA v1 or v2 is available and is no harder to set up?!?


      Because WPA is inconvenient when you're using a device that doesn't support it.
    9. Re:Still not too bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      behind the fire extinguisher in the hall between room A and room B. Security through obscurity!

    10. Re:Still not too bad by RoboSpork · · Score: 2, Interesting

      gaim-encryption is flawed in that it is a weak encryption scheme. Off The Record is a far superior gaim plugin providing a much stronger encrytion, authentication, deniability, and secrecy into the future. Read how it compartes to gaim-encryption on their website. Their whitepaper is really good introduction to what can make encryption strong vs what can make it weak, definitely worth a read for anyone new to crypto. And besides all that, open source != secure. That is a really bad assumption to make.

    11. Re:Still not too bad by inviolet · · Score: 2, Informative
      If you imagine something is uncrackable, like pgp pretty much is [. . .]

      Cracking PGP is still a Hard Problem, but the times they are a'changin'. It may succumb to quantum computing. Or, it may fall under the combined assault of the army of mathematicians who are studying integer factorization. Nobody knows for sure, but the NSA has been telling people for years now to not rely on RSA. They suggest switching over to Elliptic Curve or other advanced algorithm.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    12. Re:Still not too bad by Phleg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In which one is a person more likely to leave their wallet?
      Am I the only person who thinks the correct answer to this question is in his pocket?
      --
      No comment.
    13. Re:Still not too bad by k98sven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To use an analogy, consider two locker rooms. Room A does not have locks on any of the lockers. Room B has locks, but all of them have the same combination. In which one is a person more likely to leave their wallet?

      I take it you're implying the correct answer would then be "Neither". And I'd agree.

      Problem is, it's not a relevant point. The context here is consumer's ignorance on the performance of crypto products. If someone is buying a crypto product, they must have determined that they need one. Or to continue your analogy: They have already decided that they're going to leave their wallet in a locker. The problem is that they can't tell the difference between a locker room where all the locks have the same combination, and the safer locker room where they don't.

      And given that assumption (that they're going to put their wallet in a locker anyway), the poster who claimed that weak encryption is still better than none is right: If you're going to put your wallet in a locker, it's better to put it in one with a bad lock than none at all.

      Continuing the analogy: With no lock, any casual bypasser with no particular knowledge at all can easily and quickly check the lockers for any valuables. "Opportunity makes the thief" as they say. Whereas if you at least had a bad lock, finding your wallet would at least require some knowledge of locks. It would also impede the person searching the lockers, which increases the likelyhood of them being discovered before they find your wallet. All in all, a safer situation.

      Now obviously, a good and proper lock is better than a bad one. The problem here is that the consumer can't tell the difference when making the choice between the good and bad ones.

      But the option of "don't store valuables in it" simply isn't on the table: They've already determined that they're going to store valuables in it, because that's why they wanted a lock in the first place.

    14. Re:Still not too bad by BobNET · · Score: 2, Funny
      Room A does not have locks on any of the lockers. Room B has locks, but all of them have the same combination. In which one is a person more likely to leave their wallet?

      Put the wallet in your sneaker. I put it down by the toe, they never look there!

    15. Re:Still not too bad by Ernesto+Alvarez · · Score: 2, Informative

      Would you please explain why gaim-encryption is weak?

      OTR might be a better choice for social communications, as explained in the paper, but that does not make gaim-encryption (or PGP, etc) weak. For its intended purpose both PGP and gaim-encryption seem strong.

      If I wanted to authenticate and keep a message secret from eavesdroppers, I would have no problems using gaim-encryption. At work, non-repudiation is really not a problem, and if my key was compromised, IM compromise would be my smallest problem (assuming that with that key, my SSH and PGP ones were compromised too).

      If you know gaim-encryption is weak, I'd like to hear about it. But it looks to me that it is strong, provided you know what you're getting into.

    16. Re:Still not too bad by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Informative
      Peer reviewed does not equal security. It could be there are several known flaws in something that's had "peer reviews"...

      Yes, "it could be" that many unlikely things are true. But they are still unlikely.

      Are you new to cryptogology? It seems you are unfamiliar with the fundamental tenet of cryptography: "If lots of smart people have failed to solve a problem, then it probably will not be solved anytime soon."

      You seem to think peer review doesn't have much to do with cryptography, but I would argue that it is the most important thing. If you expect an algorithm to be "provably" secure, then the only algorithm you have any business using is OTP.

      Because it is unreasonable to expect you to hire "lots of smart people" to review any crypto you use, the next best thing is to go for using a solution that lots of people (in general) use, and assume that a subset of those people were smart :-)

      You really should pick up this book as a basic intro to crypto.
      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    17. Re:Still not too bad by Inode+Jones · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Room A.

      And I'll bring my own lock.

  3. Then use OSS!! by JimBowen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are worried about the honesty of vendors, this is exactly why you should be using free cryptography software in the first place, because you know that is going to be strong, and trustworthy, because otherwise someone would have changed it by now. :)
    It is also much easier to verify strength by reading the source rather than by reading the binary or by cryptanalysis.

    1. Re:Then use OSS!! by portmapper · · Score: 2, Funny
      See Peter Gutmann's analysis of open source VPNs back in 2003.

      That has the following great suggestion:

      Whenever someone thinks that they can replace SSL/SSH with something much better that they designed this morning over coffee, their computer speakers should generate some sort of penis-shaped sound wave and plunge it repeatedly into their skulls until they achieve enlightenment. Replacing the SSL/SSH data channel is marginally justifiable, although usually just running SSL/SSH over UDP would be sufficient. Replacing the SSL/SSH control channel is never justifiable - even the WAP guys, with strong non-SSL/SSH requirements, simply adapted SSL rather than trying to invent their own protocol.
  4. Crypto is scary stuff by smilindog2000 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So, for example, with a post like this, will somebody in a dark suit and glasses show up at my door tomorrow?

    Blasphemy #1: I've heard from a claimed friend of one of the inventors of RSA that it was cracked it years ago. Yet, it continues to get worldwide use. Sure my friend was probably full of it... but who am I suppose to trust here? The government?

    Blasphemy #2: One of my close friend's mother had to switch fields from Numerics after she published some papers considered too sensitive. It had something to do with factoring.

    Blasphemy #3: Anybody else notice that quantum computers have been proven to be capable of factoring really well, but no one has shown that they can solve any NP-hard algorithms? Come on... factoring isn't NP hard.

    Then, there's just some silly stuff I've noticed about crypto. Why do we always seem to use encryption just a generation or so ahead of what is needed to crack it? SHA-1 for example... And, why do we encrypt one small block at a time. Each encrypted file usually gives many independent chances to crack the key, and in many cases, some of those blocks have known data. Also, public key is great, but secret key can be easily shown NP-hard to crack (in terms of secret key length) with semi-reasonable assumptions, while public key has no such simple proof. I personally have been trying to prove that no public key system can be NP-hard, but what the heck... I'm not that good. However, I do believe it's probably true.

    It seems any time you start talking about crypto, you get assailed by experts telling you just how full of it you are. Consider something simple, like generation of random numbers. Just claiming you can do a good job brings nay-sayers out of the woodwork. See:

            http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=193904&c id=15899118
            http://www.billrocks.org/rng

    for how to do it well. Any child could do it (well at least my geeky 6-year-old).

    Everything about crypto is scary... Are we being manipulated into using weak encryption? Is there some invisible line, which if crossed, bad things can happen? The scary part is the unknown.

    --

    Just because your paranoid doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you.

    --
    Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    1. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Is there some invisible line, which if crossed, bad things can happen? The scary part is the unknown.
      That's exactly what it is, I think. Crypto is so complex that, unless you are absolutely sure wtf you're doing, you're better off NOT trying to implement your own crypto algorithm, random number generator and whatnot. Without the mathematical knowledge, you can never completely assess side effects, for example.

      A nice page about how novice understandig of crypto can turn into horribly insecure software: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/linux_v pn.txt
    2. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by Realistic_Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      sci.crypt is a good read if you are interested in Crypto. However it does tend to get a bit antagonistic towards newbies - and it's not hard to see why.

      Approximatly every 12.5 minutes someone turns up claiming to have invented a new:

      Random number generator
      Unbreakable encryption method
      Implimentation of old methods that makes them unbreakable
      Proof that shows that all crypto is worthless

      The percentage of loons is *so* high that anyone who does have an interesting idea (and who doesn't publish in reputable journals) is dismissed out of hand.

      For example, here is a typical conversation from the one sane new poster (posted somewhere between the 999,999 people trying to sell "200000 bit quantum crypto based on the randomness of STARS!!!!!"):

      <i>** Hi, I'd like to find out if there's a RNG sandbox somewhere so I can play about with some ideas.</i>

      <i>* ARGH! Dont impliment your own RNG! It'll be crap! Here, use product X.</i>

      Well, yes, that's true. When it comes to crypto there is a 99% chance that what you impliment will not work properly and as a result will be insecure... but stoping on someone who wants to try some ideas out is just plain wrong. All research doesnt have to take place in academic institutions.

      --
      Beep beep.
    3. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by Panaflex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I think the facts(haha - ahem - as far as is publically known) are this:

      I've heard from a claimed friend of one of the inventors of RSA that [it was cracked years ago].
      1. RSA is not known to be cracked and in general is still considered HARD - though the rapidly increasing amount of free and cheap CPU time will eventually defeat most of today's common length keys in 35-50 years (who knows?). That said, it may be possible that RSA gets cracked next week - I wouldn't be surprised. I too have a few friends that studied with RSA founders and ashamedly, they have not let me in on the secret crack yet, either. (Need more beer)

      [Friend who does factoring moves to Numerics]
      That could be anything - really - from "professional jealousy", "national secret", or "I didn't get the right vibe."

      Quantum computers
      Ahh, shake and bake computing at it's finest. Unortunatly, qubits are pesky little critters that tend to get bored and entangled in relationships during the course of research. Some qubits have been known to file their own myspace profile and entangle with Japanese qubits! Oh, the little horrors!

      Seriously though - you don't have to make wild guesses and claims here. When somone really does crack RSA it will be widely known. The only scary stuff with crypto is wild claims and dishonesty.

      --
      I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
    4. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by gkhan1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Boy, you don't know that much about cryptography, do you ;)

      Blasphemy #1: I've heard from a claimed friend of one of the inventors of RSA that it was cracked it years ago. Yet, it continues to get worldwide use. Sure my friend was probably full of it... but who am I suppose to trust here? The government?

      That's complete BS. It hasn't been cracked, and it wont be for a long time. Just remember to use big keys and your stuff is safe. As for who you are supposed to trust, you're supposed to trust the huge mathematical community that every day is pounding and pounding and pounding on this problem. They are honest academics, and if there is even a hint of progress it will become public.

      Blasphemy #2: One of my close friend's mother had to switch fields from Numerics after she published some papers considered too sensitive. It had something to do with factoring.

      I'm not entirely sure what the hell you are saying. Are you saying that your friends mother is a genius mathematician who published a few papers about factoring and was somehow forced to leave the field? That's completely ridiculous, lots of people publish papers on factoring every year. Either you are lying or you have completly misunderstood the matter.

      Blasphemy #3: Anybody else notice that quantum computers have been proven to be capable of factoring really well, but no one has shown that they can solve any NP-hard algorithms? Come on... factoring isn't NP hard.

      This is a common misconception, that quantum computers will be like a regular computer, "but way faster". This is not so, a quantum computer works in a fundamentally different way, a way that makes it possible to invent algorithms that are way faster than anything on a classical computer. Many of these new algorithms are made for cryptanalysis, namely Shor's algorithm (integer factorization in polynomial time, breaks RSA), the discrete logarithm algorithm (breaks Diffie-Hellman) and Grovers algorithm (would speed up standard brute forcing cracking, but only a quadratic amount which means that you can just double your key length, and it's still as hard).

      As for complexity, the decision-problem form of integer factorization ("Is there a factor of M smaller than N?") is indeed in NP, but the specific class is an unresolved problem. Most people doubt that it is in either P or NP-Complete which would most certainly make it NP-hard (unless P=NP ofcourse, but that's a whole 'nother discussion ;) Maybe you are thinking of primality testing, which has very recently been proven to be in P. The whole village rejoiced.

      Then, there's just some silly stuff I've noticed about crypto. Why do we always seem to use encryption just a generation or so ahead of what is needed to crack it? SHA-1 for example...

      Has been a problem in the past, but we've learned our lesson. 256 bit AES will (very possibly) never be cracked by an ordinary computer. A quantum computer might, but it would have to be one bad-ass quantum computer. 256 bit AES is completely safe.

      And, why do we encrypt one small block at a time. Each encrypted file usually gives many independent chances to crack the key, and in many cases, some of those blocks have known data.

      It doesn't matter one iota whether a block has known data or not. You still need the key to have any idea what is in there or not (that is, imagine you suspect a block of data Y has encrypted X, there is no way you can prove that if you don't have the key). There is something called chosen plaintext attack which you can do a similar thing in public key cryptography, but it is only works in bad implementations of it.

      Also, public key is great, but secret key can be easily shown NP-hard to crack (in terms of secret key length) with semi-reasonable assumptions, while public key has no such simple proof. I personally have been trying to prove that no public key system can be NP-hard, but what the heck... I'm not that good. Howe

    5. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by YoungHack · · Score: 2, Informative
      Blasphemy #1: I've heard from a claimed friend of one of the inventors of RSA that it was cracked it years ago. Yet, it continues to get worldwide use. Sure my friend was probably full of it... but who am I suppose to trust here? The government?

      I'm a professional mathematician and have had the opportunity to work with and become friends with some big names in number theory and factoring. No one can know for certain, but my friends were of the general opinion that RSA was probably okay.

      Blasphemy #2: One of my close friend's mother had to switch fields from Numerics after she published some papers considered too sensitive. It had something to do with factoring.

      The US government was very serious about suppressing the publication of some of the early factoring results, but the mathematicians that I know are still working in that field (for over 10 years) after having published anyway. It seems almost surreal now that they were getting calls from the NSA, because the academic cryptography field has grown so much since then. They're still in the field and still publishing.

      Blasphemy #3: Anybody else notice that quantum computers have been proven to be capable of factoring really well, but no one has shown that they can solve any NP-hard algorithms? Come on... factoring isn't NP hard.

      I can't give any response to this. You may be right.

    6. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by Tack · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And, why do we encrypt one small block at a time. Each encrypted file usually gives many independent chances to crack the key, and in many cases, some of those blocks have known data.

      They're only independent if you use ECB, and anyone using ECB deserves what they get. Cipher modes like CBC or CTR solve these problems.

    7. Re:Crypto is scary stuff by gkhan1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ohh, you're one of those people. The paranoid, cynic, LBJ-killed-Kennedy people with more willingness to post on slashdot than knowledge about the subject. There is a name for those kind of people, and infact, it's one of the moderation options on slashdot....

      First off, on the you-can't-do-research bit. My point was that there are thousands of scholars working on this very subject every day, yet they never get threatened by any sort of law enforcement? How does that fit with your little paranoid world-view?

      And, as for modern ciphers being uncrackable, lets have a little demonstration. You obviously have no clue about the numbers involved, so lets do this slowly. It is common knowledge that DES has been cracked. A couple of years ago someone built a machine that could crak DES in 7 hours, unacceptable in modern terms. Today, a supercomputer could maybe crack it in a half-hour or so, probably even a shorter time than that. Now, let's imagine an impossible machine, the fastest machine ever created in any universe, fictional or real. This machine can crack DES in a femtosecond. How long is a femtosecond, you ask? It's one quintillionth of a second, or 10^-15 seconds, or 0.000000000000001 seconds. That's way to short a time for anything at all to happen, infact, during that time, the speed of light can only travel about 0.0003 millimeters. Infact that number is so small that the human mind can't really picture how small it is, just like the human mind can't understand how big 1 quintillion is. Anyway, let's suppose that this computer can crack DES in that amount of time (meaning it can crack 1 quintillon DES ciphers per second!) Suppose we set that computer onto a modern cipher, namely 256bit AES. How long would it take to crack that?

      Let's see: Assuming that AES and DES takes approximatly the same time to execute (which is true, AES is about twice as fast), since for each increase in bit-length, the time to solve it doubles, that means (since DES has a 56 bit cipher) that it would take 2^(256-56)=2^200 femtoseconds. Let's convert that to something we can understand. 2^200/((10^15 femtoseconds in a second)*(3600 seconds in an hour)*(24 hours in a day)*(365 days in a year)) = 2^200/(10^15*3600*24*365) = 50955671114250072156962268275658377807 years (rounded to the nearest integer). Let's stop and think about this for a minute. That mindnumbingly fast computer (one that will probably never be built, a neither classical nor quantum computers will ever be that fast), so fast that to imagine one is a feat impossible to human beings, for it, it would take 50955671114250072156962268275658377807 years to complete!!! You do realise that the age of the universe is only about 13700000000.

      However, you probably won't be convinced. Your type never gets convinced. But you know what, it's not just the math that backs me up, every security expert in the world that has any weight agrees with me. So why don't you go back to your little hole, and dream up another cynical consipracy theory. Because kid, when it comes to cryptography, you're out of your element.

      PS. You said "LOL"! You actually said "LOL"! On slashdot? Seriously dude, you are one sad individual.

  5. Snake oil that uses AES by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Many Slashdot readers are savvy enough to know that when a software product advertises itself as using, say, secret encryption algorithms with 10,000 bit keys, it's probably snake oil. But I'm seeing increasing amounts of snake oil that uses the Advanced Encryption Standard, AES, and it can be just as weak.

    AES itself of course is nigh-on as trustworthy a cryptographic primitive of its kind that we have. But just because you've used the right primitive, doesn't mean you've built a secure product. You have to consider what chaining mode to use, how to handle passphrases if they exist, how to keep your secrets secret, defense against side channel attacks, and more.

    What I look for is a product that provides enough information that I can actually assess its security - what attacks they've considered and how they've built the product to defend against them. What I see disturbingly often is a bald declaration that the product is secure, because it uses AES.

  6. It requires expensive... blah blah blah by melted · · Score: 2, Insightful

    >> It requires expensive and uncommon skills to verify that data is really being protected by the use of cryptography

    No. It requires reading a couple of good, inexpensive books and understanding of what the heck you're doing. Math behind the whole thing can be complicated. But you don't really need to understand the math 100% here. All you need to know is whether an algorithm is considered "strong" by today's standards, understand a few key concepts, guard your keys, and aproach security related coding with a healthy amount of paranoia.

    In other words, a decent developer can get a pretty good understanding of this all in two weeks or less. And these skills need to become "common" already.

    1. Re:It requires expensive... blah blah blah by zolaris · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah sure they can get a great understanding of crypto... with inexpensive books. Just curious do you know how many crypto courses at top level universities rely on textbooks for teaching crypto? I'd suggest discounting any books where the professor is the author. But even with that, it will probably be very small. There are recommended books but in my crypto classes (granted Johns Hopkins isn't exactly the number one crypto school in the country or world but I'd like to think we are half way decent) we never cracked a textbook. Sure we read a bit of papers but is average Joe developer really going to read through any crypto papers? I know I wouldn't unless I had to.

      [Sarcasm captioning*]On a side note, let me know what project you are working on where developers employ crypto after about two weeks of reading some books.[/sarcasm captioning]

      *Sarcasm captioning provided for cya purposes only and not for any public benefit.

    2. Re:It requires expensive... blah blah blah by canuck57 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. It requires reading a couple of good, inexpensive books and understanding of what the heck you're doing.

      That is an understatement.

      Reminds me of the time I watched a finance person use PGP to encrypt a very sensitive file they sent via email. They did everything right except for one critical part.

      After the file was encrypted, they deleted the original one as per instructions. Trouble was it was in the "Recycle" bin a readable.

  7. No, it's much harder than you think. by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you believe that, no wonder so much insecure stuff is being written. I have been called upon to review code written by developers with your level of knowledge in crypto. They do things like use RSA without proper padding, or use predictable IVs in CBC mode, or fail to properly authenticate the message. They also add totally unnecessary complexity to the system in the mistaken belief that their improvements make it more secure. I shudder when I see a copy of "Applied Cryptography" on the shelves because it is just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

    Even the experts make errors in cryptographic protocol design and implementation - I've been doing this for ten years and I've made at least one howler myself. Why do you think, contrary to the advice of pretty much everyone who really knows their stuff, that people with a couple of week's worth of knowledge can get this stuff right?

    1. Re:No, it's much harder than you think. by Paul+Crowley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Er. To that specific question, I recommend using EAX or GGM modes, which are much easier to implement and to use correctly; they include authentication as well as encryption. However, to the more general point, the answer is to try to use existing crypto protocols rather than rolling your own wherever you can, and to get expert help if you can't. I haven't read it but I'm told Ferguson and Schneier's "Practical Cryptography" is aimed at people in your situation.

  8. How is this different from any other product? by njdj · · Score: 4, Informative

    Products that implement cryptography are probably credence goods. It requires expensive and uncommon skills to verify that data is really being protected by the use of cryptography, and most people cannot easily distinguish between very weak and very strong cryptography.

    Can you distinguish, by inspection, between a reliable automobile and a piece of junk that will barely last 2 years? I certainly can't. So I rely on reviews by people I trust when I buy a new car.

    In the field of cryptography there are several people who have written peer-reviewed books about cryptography, are trusted in the community, and who occasionally review products. Bruce Schneier is one (there are others, use Google, this is not mean to be a puff for Schneier or his company).

    There are also open-source cryptographic programs, which are peer-reviewed and definitely not snake-oil.

  9. or by xmodem_and_rommon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    or you could just take the common sense approach and use products that rely on algorithms that are open, widely tested and reviewed, and known secure. Algorithms like Blowfish, AES, etc. I use Apple's built-in Filevault protection to encrypt my Powerbook's hard disk, in the event that it is ever stolen. It uses AES-128, which means I know that no-one is getting in without my password.

    Any vendor that relies on a custom algorithm for their encryption technology shouldn't be trusted.

    1. Re:or by TCM · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Any vendor that relies on a custom algorithm for their encryption technology shouldn't be trusted.
      Of course.

      But even then there are vendors who claim to be using AES and end up introducing implementational flaws that are not obvious to the user. It's not just algorithms that need to be reviewed but complete implementations.

      Nice read: http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-9902.html#snak eoil
      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    2. Re:or by swelke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...use products that rely on algorithms that are open, widely tested and reviewed, and known secure.

      Just because the algorithm is widely tested and known to be secure doesn't make the software based on it secure. It's very easy to take a secure algorithm like AES and make a totally insecure program by, for example, not encrypting all of the data it should, or by selecting the encryption key poorly so that it's easy to "guess",meaning you might only have to check 2^20 keys to decrypt that email of yours instead of 2^128, like you're supposed to have to. So instead of being secure against years of hard cracking, your data is compromised in seconds. Besides that, there are other ways to build a crappy program that I'm not a good enough cryptographer to know.

      --
      Have you ever wondered How to Take Over
    3. Re:or by rew · · Score: 2, Informative

      or you could just take the common sense approach and use products that rely on algorithms that are open, widely tested and reviewed, and known secure ... and in reply I quote the blurb from the article on slashdot:

      "Even after you use cryptography, you are never quite sure that it is protecting you like it is supposed to do."

      If it claims to use AES, does it really? Even if it actually does, are you sure it doesn't conveniently store the key somewhere? Even if it doesn't do anything this stupid, are you sure it doesn't leak one bit of your key in every encrypted block?

      The implementation around a secure algorithm is just as important as the algorithm itself. Even if you have the source, some problems can be difficult to detect.

  10. Don't use weak ROT-13 by CrazyJim1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Get creative, use Rot-14 or something.

  11. Some insights about the article by owlstead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's pretty well known that there are many snake oil products that deploy cryptography. Bruce Sneier frequently displays snake-oil cryptography products in his newsletter, for instance. And these are just the really obvious ones.

    Some time ago, I tried to evaluate if a Enterprise Service Bus (intercomponent communication) was fit enough to be put into a production environment. It said that it had AES encryption build in. When I looked at the manual, it displayed a pop up window where you could choose the key-size. It listed exactly all key sizes that were *not* possible for AES. This was a very short evaluation, I can tell you. This also shows a very important thing about cryptography: the algorithms used say very little about the security of an application.

    Generally, the manual for cryptographic services is easy to find. This is simply because cryptography is added at the end of the development lifecycle. This is logical because cryptography is not part of the main functionality of most applications (e.g. mime encryption in email products). It's something that was added after the products main functionality was finished. So just look at the last paragraph, or Appendix Z and you are looking at it.

    Sometimes it is easy to see why so many products contain bad cryptography. Take XML signatures for instance. XML signatures themselves contain *references* to the data that is signed and the cryptographic techniques used. If you are to verify an XML digital signature, you *must* check if these are not altered. Furthermore, you must keep the XML schema-definitions on your own disk, and not retrieve them from the internet. Nevertheless, I've not seen any API-documentation even mentioning this rather obvious cryptographic insight. You can rest assured that there will be many implementations that will get this wrong.

    Cryptography is hard.

    The real insight of this story is the listing of the products into "credence goods". If you can call this new insight. Otherwise, it's just stating the well known/obvious.

  12. Truecrypt by urikkiru · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is something I've often considered about commercial encryption software. There's just no way to be sure of their validity, as they are closed source implementations. Open source solutions like Truecrypthttp://truecrypt.sourceforge.net/ are at least somewhat more trustworthy, in that they can be openly reviewed by anyone. Despite the fact that I know jack all about the specific math behind AES and such, at least I can read some simple explanations of the concepts, read the source, and decide if I want to trust my data to it. Honestly, unless we get down to the fraction of the population that actually does understand these bits at a deep level, that's the best any of us can do really.

    Sure, large clusters of powerful servers working in tandem(or quantum computing) may render the factoral math behind crypto obsolete. A nice thing though, is that those kind of solutions are limited to those that can afford them. Still, even if it's all true, and I'm wasting my time encrypting things, what better solutions do we have?

    1. Re:Truecrypt by kasperd · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree TrueCrypt is well documented, and in addition to that the source is available. I have the necesarry knowledge to actually review such a design, and in the case of TrueCrypt I must say it is not the worst I have seen, but it is certainly not perfect either. There are some subtle watermarking attacks if you can get access to different encryptions of the same sector. Still in spite of that I'd much rather rely on TrueCrypt than some closed source products. So far all storage encryption products I have seen have had some weakness, I'd much rather use one where I know what it is and to what extend it could be a problem to me.

      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    2. Re:Truecrypt by kasperd · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Any efficient 1-to-1-mapped disk encryption software (not just TrueCrypt) is subject to "water mark" attacks based on comparison of re-encrypted blocks.
      That is absolutely correct. In fact you didn't even have to use the word efficient here. Any 1-to-1-mapped encryption is subject to such attacks. The point is that if you are willing to sacrifice a few percent of disk space, you can improve security.

      One encryption sacrificing about 3% of disk space is GBDE. Unfortunately GBDE suffers from a few other problems. The author designed his own weak pseudo random number generator. And GBDE does mean you have a risk of loosing data as the consequence of an incomplete write.

      Those problems can be solved, and the overhead could be reduced from 3% to 1%. And I believe this can be done at only a few percent of cost in performance, though I don't yet have the complete solution, I'm pretty close.
      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
    3. Re:Truecrypt by kasperd · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The two attributes "transparent" and "real-time" rule out any solution that is not 1-to-1 mapped.
      GBDE have proven you wrong a long time ago, it is transparent and does not use such a 1 to 1 mapping. Besides why do you think the 1 to 1 mapping is necesarry on the encryption layer when both the layer beneath it (firmware in the storage device) and the layer above it (file system) can use something more complicated than a 1 to 1 mapping?
      --

      Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  13. Classic snake oil: Blitzkrieg! by WWWWolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Anyone remember the Blitzkrieg server, which seems like the solution to all of the world's security needs? The expression Bruce Schneier used was "just too bizarre for words". I don't know if this was an elaborate trolling attempt or an actual real honest scam to deceive the terminally dumb, but it's fun to read, still, just for the amazing technobabble and ludicruous claims.

  14. Article taken from Wikipedia??? by transporter_ii · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So did he write the article and then post it on wikipedia, or did he swipe it from wikipedia and post on his site?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

    Not trying to troll, I just couldn't figure out which it was and I don't have a lot of time to investigate.

    Transporter_ii

    --
    Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    1. Re:Article taken from Wikipedia??? by 44BSD · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, Ross Anderson was the first infosec/crypto dude to channel Akerlof, in section 5 of this paper.

  15. Try This... by thebdj · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you are truly concerned about the validity of cryptography provided by the vendor, then try to find products that have been certified under the FIPS 140-2 standard. The only problem might be that a lot of those products are usually commercial grade items meant for use by government agencies; however, some of the items that have received approval are reasonably available to consumers. The products are reviewed by independent labs, and then the CMVP reviews the labs results. (The site was down earlier this morning.)

    These products have been reviewed by independent labs, who review their implementation to verify that cryptographic mechanisms are implemented properly. This includes reviewing source code and/or hardware designs. Just a thought for anyone who is truly concerned that their hardware or software be compliant. (Note: If you want a "secure" operating system, look into CC Evaluation.)

    --
    "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
  16. an old problem by v1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I worked for sevearal years on a programming language called REALbasic. In the latter releases that I saw, it featured "encryption". A compiler is basically a tool that takes human readable commands and turns them into a program that a computer can run. This process is not easily reversable, and once compiled, it's difficult at best to make changes to the progam.

    Encryption was added to RB so that it was possible for you to give away portions of your program's "source code" (the human readable part) without anyone actually being able to READ it. They could incorporate your souce into their new project and use it normally, they could just not read it or make changes to it.

    This sounds like a nice idea, until you realize that when you get someone's "encrypted" source code and add it to your program, the compiler has to be able to read the source code, because it needs to translate it for your new program. This means one thing: the encryption is not secure because the compiler itself must somehow posess a "master key" of sorts so that it can read the source code to do its thing. So... when you select the module and try to open it to look at it, it's not that it can't read it.. it's that it won't read it. A sufficiently skilled programmer could go into the compiler and flip a switch inside it and basically say "ignore that", and you would have unrestricted access to the so called "encrypted" informataion.

    I assisted with a project where we found out how this information was encrypted. In short, a fixed key was used to encrypt the project data. Then a different fixed key was used to encrypt the passcode you would use to "protect" the project. Thus, the compiler could ask you for the password if you wanted to read your own project, and it could verify you typed in the correct passcode. If you did, it would decrypt the project for you to view. So you see, the compiler does not NEED the passcode, it simply WANTS it.

    It took us about a week to write a program that would read in the projects, decrypt them using the fixed key and completely ignoring the passcode thing, and saved an unprotected naked project file that anyone could edit or view.

    This is probably not too far from the mark on how a LOT of programs "protect your privacy". In reality they are only protecting you from the casual inspection. Anyone that really wants your data can get it, all too easily. Be sure that with any program you are certain that the program NEEDS the passcode to unlock your data. If it only WANTS it, (is there a password reset option available?) then you know it's "security through obscurity", and we know how totally worthless that is.

    You thought your windows or OS X keychain was secure? You have auto login turned on? Does the computer need your password? Think about it.

    --
    I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  17. Peril of the semi-educated know-it-all by Coward+Anonymous · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the major perils facing a would-be crypto user is himself. Many people think they know it all (as evidenced in many of the posts to this article) and therefore can dictate insecure and plain silly design choices when deploying a secure solution in a non-trivial environment (for anything: authentication, the crypto itself, access enforcement, etc.).
    For the vendor this creates a conflict. On the one hand, you want to satisfy the customer's request. On the other hand, you know your customer is shooting himself in the foot and very possibly becoming a vendor reputation problem later on down the line.
    In my experience, most customers are accustomed to being "always right" and fail to recognize that crypto/security may be one of those things that they simply do not know enough about and to let the vendor help them. It is often the case that the vendor can explain/evangelize and detail the very attack the customer is opening himself up to with little or no effect - the customer is convinced they know it all.

  18. You'd have thought so... by jd · · Score: 4, Informative
    But I've worked as a contractor for Government sites where their central data server was:
    • Publicly accessible, outside of any firewall
    • Had .rhosts on it, for the specific purpose of avoiding having to write login code for scripts that copy data
    • Stored commercially sensitive (and possibly classified) information.

    Ok, I'll be fair - though God alone knows why, and I think even God gave up trying to figure out the tangled mess I call a brain some time ago. They did use DES - not triple DES, just plain DES - for the really really sensitive stuff. The encryption key was visible to anyone logged in on any account, however, as the DES they used required the key to be the first parameter and they made no effort to erase it. So it was technically encrypted. (Once the passkey has been broadcast to all and sundry, I do not regard the encryption as anything more than a technicality, and in the case of DES, I seriously doubt you could even claim that.)

    I've heard that security has since improved. I say "heard", because it was some time AFTER security was said to have been improved that reports started coming out of a fileswapper using NASA storage machines as extra disk space - the very same organization and very same type of mass storage device I had serious doubts about many years prior to that.

    But that's a Government institution! Yes, and they're the ones with a great many experts in such matters and a great many contracts with people who can not merely withdraw business but also guarantee a disaster in the next election. The bulk of private corporations out there have neither the skills to draw on OR the incentives to maintain some sort of standard. All they have to do is ROT13 and tell you it's got digital security. Enough suckers'll buy into it to keep the CEO in champaign, caviar and girls of commercially-negotiable virtue for life.

    The problem is, there is no mandated minimum standard for security, so those who can WILL use the lowest standard possible that will deceive customers into thinking they're safe whilst staying a gnat's whisker (after being compressed by the forces of a neutron star) beyond what could be sued for in courts, assuming a technically ignorant judge.

    IMHO, "snake oil" could be vastly reduced - not eliminated but reduced - by placing minimum standards for crypto, compression and other easily-manipulated areas of technology, and enforcing them. Not maximum - that's what the intelligence services want, and they want it to be zero. I'm strictly talking minimum. Your good, old-fashioned lemon law - does it fill the purpose for which it was sold to the customer? Yes or no.

    In the case of cryptography, that would be rephrased as follows: would a reasonable person, aware of the strengths and deficits of the technique concerned, aware of any warnings published on the block crypto lounge, hashing function lounge, etc, aware of the Usenet Crypto FAQ (ie: aware of the "common knowledge" that exists on cryptography), and aware of the grade of security the user is demonstrably expecting, agree or disagree that the cryptographic system sold meets the grade expected or not?

    If it does not, it is a lemon for the purpose for which it was sold. It might be perfectly good otherwise, but it doesn't, can't, and never will do what was expected of it.

    This would be enforceable, as I said very clearly that I'm talking about weighing the "common knowledge" against the "personal expectation". Both are easy to define and even a non-expert should understand a skull-and-crossbones labelled "BROKEN, DO NOT USE" in a crypto lounge. They might not understand the fine nit-picking or the advanced maths, but that's why I'm sticking solely to what is commonly known and understood, not what is derivable from axiom 327 as applies to lemma 291 as described by Professor Branestawm's obscure paper entitled "techniques for splicing dormice genes into giraffe brai

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  19. WPA-supporting devices all but mandatory by davidwr · · Score: 2, Informative

    Because WPA is inconvenient when you're using a device that doesn't support it.

    WPA-supporting devices are all but mandatory for laptops and WAPs these days. If your device doesn't support WPA, replace it.

    These WEP is little more than a "no tresspassing" sign - it will keep people from accidently connecting to your WLAN, but not much else.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  20. odds still better than closed-source by davidwr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If a million people read the code, and 1 in 10,000 were cryptographers who examined the code closely, that's still 100 cryptographers examining the code. Assuming most of them were working independently or in small groups, that's good enough for me. It's probably a lot better than a closed-source solution where maybe half a dozen experts looked closely at the code.

    The best thing about open-source is that if it's a real concern to you, you can hire your own experts to check out the implimentation. You don't have to take the vendor's or anyone else's word for it.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.