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The Internet Not for Old People
Alien54 writes to tell us the Daily Mail is reporting that if you want an internet connection and you are over 70 you may be in for a surprise. From the article: "After walking the Great Wall of China and making plans for a trip to Russia, Shirley Greening-Jackson thought signing up for a new internet service would be a doddle. But the young man behind the counter had other ideas. He said she was barred - because she was too old."
Bear in mind that many elderly people have trouble understanding the workings of computers and the Internet (insert Ted Stevens joke here). This is more of a cover-your-ass routine so that people with little prior understanding of technology don't buy something completely unsuitable then come back ranting and raving.
I'm sure it's an inconvenience to elderly people who do understand the Internet and computers, but then I'm sure speed limits are an inconvenience to people who can safely and skilfully drive at 100mph.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
Appearently they'd sold service to a few people who didn't need it who also happened to be 1) old and 2) unable or unwilling to read and/or understand the fine print.
The solution is to
1) make the fine print bigger, say, newsprint-size.
2) make the fine print easier to understand, say, newspaper-reading-level.
3) go over the fine print with every customer to make sure they understand it.
After all, if companies can find a way to sell a 70-year-old a reverse morgtage without getting complaints, surely they can figure out a way to sell internet services.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
This is really about the ISP wanting to be able to enforce its contract. If the terms were fair, it wouldn't be an issue. The terms probably aren't fair, so the ISP is worried that she'll cancel the service and claim ignorance of the contract's disclaimer of sevice warranty, authorization to throttle bandwidth, permission to share private information, multi-year commitment, punitive cancellation charge, multiple hidden monthly fees, restrictions on ports and services, and advance agreement to any additional unfair terms the ISP's evil lawyers can dream up.
Young people are probably even more casual than old people about signing such agreements, because young people haven't been burned by them yet, but the ISP doesn't care whether the customer actually agrees to the terms. The ISP cares only about being able to enforce the terms. If a customer was able to read and understand the terms, the terms will probably be enforced against her. The ISP has more trouble proving agreement to the terms by a senior citizen.
On the one hand it is clearly horrible for competent older individuals to be denied products.
On the other hand what do you do when you do know old people are far more likely to not understand or be able to use the product? It does seem like they are disproportionatly likely to use tecchnical serrvice or buy computer products wthout understanding their use. This is no real slight against old people but when you are young it is far easier to adjust to different situations and the very old are in a world that is incredibly different from the one they adjusted to at a young age. My grandpa was a phycicist and still a very smart man but he is way more likely to call tech support for computer help than most younger people I know.
Now you might think this is a situation like age discrimination in hiring. However, when hiring the employer has the opportunity to make an individualized deciscion. The employer can look at the resume and determine if this individual has the right skills regardless of whether they belong to a class which is statistically less likely to have those skills. When selling a product one doesn't necessarily have the resources to make an individualized deciscion. For instance we are comfortable letting insurance companies charge old people more for car insurance because they are more likely to get in accidents.
Don't get me wrong I think denying old people the chance to buy the software/service is wrong and this company acted irresponsibly. However, I don't know if I would feel the same way if they just charged old people extra money in return for their statistically increased usage of service calls and greater guidance in selecting a product. Is this more like increased insurance premiums or more like job descrimination?
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
Wow... I just had a dark vision of the future. Everyone who can afford it retains a gimp lawyer who follows them everywhere they go on a leash. The gimp conducts all of your arguments, goes over all of your contracts, and generally intimidates anyone who does business with you. Those who can't afford this service are screwed.
You call this 'a dark vision'? It sounds to me like you've stumbled upon a great idea! Having gimp lawyers on leashes would be even better than having monkey butlers. If my gimp lawyer can't sufficiently intimidate your gimp lawyer, they have to duke it out in some sort of gimp boxing match in a gimp boxing ring. I think this has the potential to do away with lots of frivolous litigation. If I have the baddest gimp around, nobody will try to 'sue' me. Of course, this would take us back to 'Might makes Right', but isn't that how it really works anyway? I have a friend who just passed the bar. Maybe I can talk him into this if he goes long enough without a job. Maybe.
My grandmother is 88 years old and is an active and intelligent Internet user. She bought her first computer at the age of 77 and has upgraded it twice since then. She walks into the computer store and the salespeople try to steer her toward little useless beginner machines, until she straigtens them out and tells them the specs she needs.
She uses scanners and digital cameras, and does almost everything a normal Internet user does. Email is still the best way to reach her.
For people who pride themselves for being on the cutting edge, a lot of your opinions on this issue are retrograde to say the least. Welcome to the 1960s, everyone.
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face! It's just a goddamned piece of paper!" -- George W. Bush
I wish that had happened to my ex-gran-in-law who has slowed down to only taking three week-long hikes this summer into the Trinity Alps and Olympic Peninsula to record birdsong. She had to yield to family pressure after the pacemaker was installed and take a couple companions along, in fact that's where she is now, somewhere in western Washington with a parabolic mic and the new digital recorder she just got off Ebay. All of 82 and a 95 pounds soaking wet I'll bet she woulda walked out with a piece of that kids ass between her teeth(All 28 original).
"But how many 12 year-olds would you want having driver's licenses?"
I will accept your car analogy and reverse it: How comfortable are you with 80 year olds able to keep their licences as long as they dont get involved in crashes? Many jurisdictions have NO mandatory re-testing age on the books, and we have seniors on the road that purchased their drivers licences for a nickel and NEVER passed a practical drivers exam and have diminished capacities in regards to reaction times and vision.
Although I find it regrettable, and one rule cannot possibly fit all situations, I can't see how her taking offence to this trumps the company's responsible behavior in ensuring those that may not fully understand what they are signing are helped. There is a reason Minors cannot sign contracts, and it has nothing to do with their physical age, just the average comprehension of those under 18.
This is an important distinction: complaining about bad service versus bad policy. Mistreating a clerk because they're not allowed to substitute a large fries for the small coleslaw that comes with your combo is stupid; humiliating the idiot who can't remember what combo comes with what is perfectly justifiable.
The women in the story is presented as savvy, experienced etc. yet she receives horrible service, and she doesn't know what to do other than complain to the media?
Of course not, she wouldn't waste another second in that store full of idiots, she would find another ISP pronto.
Story smacks of BS to me.
sigs are for losers (except to point out that sigs are for losers)
My grandma will be 89 on November 2.
When she's not understood something, she's asked questons, but she usually able to figure things out for herself.
Her time is spent dealng with email and message from various family members who are online (or acting as a go-between); surfing, and Word for Windows to develop a family journal whilst she can and there are enough other family members old enoug she can contact those who are online and know (or those family members onlne instead of LD phone calls. ("who was this in the picture?" "Why wasn't in this photo?" -- "that's when they had smallpox", etc.
She hasn't had her keys taken away [yet]; but there are lots of passenges evaluating her quality to determine when enough is enough. When that does happen her outdoor garden work and onlne work will preven her from being disconnected from the rest of the world.
And to paraphrase her in widowhood, "I am alone, but I'm not lonely."
Now in his 80s the internet is indispensable. Online purchasing, downloading software, email, checking out music... Of course his choice of music may not be the same as younger folk, but still he on the net as much as any of them.
I do telemarketing at a well known and legitimate call center agency. My department signs people up for one of any number of services, and generally speaking the individuals in question who actually do sign up for the service are quite old. However, they're also the least likely to get screwed because they have a) the time and inclination to cancel or raise hell b) the incentive of a more limited budget.
It's likely that the company in question is making some questionable upsells with their service, or doing something rather nasty in the terms and conditions. It's probably more along the lines of avoiding a lawsuit than being genuinely concerned about the elderly.
I have found when dealing with internet inquiries from a broad cross section of the population, ability to understand the Internet has nothing to do with age, sex or background.
The sad fact is, some people *get* it, some people don't, and never will. I have had 60 year old housewives who've never touched a computer before pick up the concepts and understanding required extremely quickly after just giving them a little nudge in the right direction. Conversely, I have had young, up and coming businessmen who will never understand what is required of them even if I repeat it over and over.
That said, Literacy plays a large part in getting around on a PC and using the Internet. I find a lot of people who won't read out what is on the screen because they don't know the long unfamiliar words...
I'm with another poster on the idea that people should have to pass a test first. Half the people who buy Internet from my company don't even know what the internet *is*
kill elrond
take elrond
put elrond in cupboard
Taken at face value this is ridiculous ageism. However I currently work in customer service for a major telephony provider and have dealt with a huge number of people calling on behalf of their parents claiming they have been missold an expensive package and demanding they are released from the contract. I can fully understand why they are hesitant to sign up people who are statistically very likely to enter a contract, having it fully expained to them, and then a week later demand to be released from it saying they weren't made aware of terms.
Incidentally the excuse used by a lot of the sons and daughters who phone is is "she's 84, she had no idea what she was entering into"
Life must be tough for Daily Mail readers. Every day they're told by their paper how evil in the world is conspiring against them to steal their jobs, money, property and very way of life. They must live in a constant state of alarm. No wonder they hate and fear everyone who aren't exactly like them.