360 w/Internal HD-DVD, XFire Denied

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360 w/Internal HD-DVD, XFire Denied

Posted by ryuzaki0 on Wednesday September 13, 2006 @05:39AM from the so-many-rumours-so-little-time dept.

More clarifications and rumours on the next-gen front today. Eurogamer is reporting that a new version of the 360 may have an internal HD-DVD drive, despite protestations they're doing no such thing from Microsoft. Supposedly Taiwanese manufacturers are being selected for the new version of the console. On the Sony front, they deny that XFire will play an integral role in the PS3's online strategy. Despite the report at 1up yesterday, Sony Online Entertainment is claiming XFire will only be used in some of their titles in a deal separate from the PlayStation Network. From that article: "'We can confirm that Sony Online Entertainment is in talks with Viacom and Xfire for a single, specific PS3 game,' said a spokesperson for Sony in a statement to 1Up. 'However, there are no announcements at this time regarding any discussions between SCEA, Viacom and Xfire,' continued the statement." Which is to say, there may be in the future but they don't want to talk about it now.

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wait... why? by twistedsymphony · 2006-09-13 05:43 · Score: 1

Sony Online Entertainment is claiming XFire will only be used in some of their titles in a deal separate from the Playstation Network.
So if the Playstation Network handles all of the things Xbox Live does "feature for feature". and select titles will make use of the XFire service... Why? If the Playstation Network already does match making, friends lists, chatting etc. then why would you need to stack XFire on top of it?

--
Collector's Edition
1. Re:wait... why? by Qzukk · 2006-09-13 05:51 · Score: 2, Interesting
  
  If the Playstation Network already does match making, friends lists, chatting etc. then why would you need to stack XFire on top of it?
  
  Cross-platform support with a title on the PC? I hear that Sony runs one or two tiny MMOs that nobody's ever heard of.
  
  --
  If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
2. Re:wait... why? by XaXXon · 2006-09-13 06:03 · Score: 1
  
  There can be only one
3. Re:wait... why? by ShadowsHawk · 2006-09-13 06:05 · Score: 1
  
  Has anyone actually seen this Playstation Network yet? Last I had heard they promised services equal to XBox Live, but had not produced any examples.
4. Re:wait... why? by grumbel · 2006-09-13 06:13 · Score: 1
  
  Cross-platform support with a title on the PC? I hear that Sony runs one or two tiny MMOs that nobody's ever heard of.
  
  Ok, I don't know what exactly XFire does, but doesn't on MMO game by its nature doesn't need match-making and stuff like that because all of those actions can take place in the game world itself, not in some lobby-chat window thing that XFire provides?
5. Re:wait... why? by twistedsymphony · 2006-09-13 06:13 · Score: 1
  
  Except according to the the article, the game that will be using XFire is "Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom" which as far as I can tell is a PS3 exclusive. And correct me if I'm wrong but Sony's "tiny MMOs" use a different service altogether called PlayOnline... why would they throw XFire into the mix. That makes 3 separate online services running on the same machine. It hardly sounds like a "unified" solution.
  
  This is beside the point that the new Playstation Network is supposed to be unified a cross-platform itself (to compete with MS's Live Anywhere). Sony even cited that it would spam PS2 PSP and PC in addition to PS3.
  
  So again... why would they bring Xfire into the mix if the Playstation network already delivers the same thing?
  
  --
  Collector's Edition
6. Re:wait... why? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:31 · Score: 0
  
  And correct me if I'm wrong but Sony's "tiny MMOs" use a different service altogether called PlayOnline...
  
  You're wrong. PlayOnline is used for Square-Enix games. Sony does administer some services for them, and it's true that EQ2 uses PlayOnline in Japan, but that's the extent of it. Sony has their own thing, which seems to change yearly - last I heard it was called Station.com, and was used for EQ, EQ2, and SW:Galaxies.
7. Re:wait... why? by PFI_Optix · 2006-09-13 07:24 · Score: 1
  
  "Cross-platform support with a title on the PC?"
  
  Please let this be true, and please let them implement it on a major FPS release.
  
  It just might finally shut up the "why play games on a PC when there are consoles?" crowd.
  
  --
  120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
8. Re:wait... why? by snuf23 · 2006-09-13 08:11 · Score: 1
  
  Xfire is an IM client that has some gaming specific features. It is more useful for things like online RTS and FPS. For example you can see that your friend is currently playing Battlefield 2. You can then launch the game from Xfire and connect to the server he is playing on rather than manually find it.
  Xfire IMs can also be viewed and responded to from within a game rather than needing to alt-tab out to the desktop. SO if it's time for that WoW raid and healer #3 is busy messing around in BF2 you can send him a message to log over to WoW because the raid is starting.
  
  --
  Sometimes my arms bend back.
9. Re:wait... why? by smbarbour · 2006-09-13 08:43 · Score: 1
  
  I have to ask... Which ones are the "tiny" ones? ;-)
  
  EverQuest
  EverQuest 2
  Star Wars Galaxies
  PlanetSide
  The Matrix Online
  Other unnamed ones that I don't recall
10. Re:wait... why? by Wordplay · 2006-09-13 09:09 · Score: 1
  
  Vista is going to support cross-platform play with Live Anywhere.
  
  http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?st ory=9369
11. Re:wait... why? by pdbaby · 2006-09-13 09:43 · Score: 1
  
  I have to ask... Which ones are the "tiny" ones? ;-)
  The Matrix Online would be the tiny one - it's doing so badly that they did away with 6 of their 9 server clusters
  
  --
  Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
360 w/ Internal HD-DVD by bilbravo · 2006-09-13 05:44 · Score: 1

... is a no brainer. If Microsoft doesn't do it, it's silly. However, they need to be careful, and also possibly keep producing some version of the Xbox360 WITHOUT the drive IF cost is going to be significantly different. Some people just aren't interested.

--
Starmen.net
1. Re:360 w/ Internal HD-DVD by Opportunist · 2006-09-13 06:02 · Score: 1
  
  Doesn't bother Sony, it seems...
  
  --
  We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
To translate for MS and Sony... by mobiux · 2006-09-13 05:46 · Score: 1

MS:
"We want our sales to continue and not drop off while people wait for the next release."

Sony:
"Why would we want something that is in place and works? It's a PS3, 3!!!!!, with a 3 on the end. Pretty cool huh?"
1. Re:To translate for MS and Sony... by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 07:16 · Score: 0
  
  Sony:
  "Why would we want something that is in place and works? It's a PS3, 3!!!!!, with a 3 on the end. Pretty cool huh?"
  
  And Thomas Edison and Ben Franklin too then, why innovate when you can use somthing that is in place?
  Too bad history disagrees with you, societies need innovation.
2. Re:To translate for MS and Sony... by NinjaFarmer · 2006-09-13 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  "Why would we want something that is in place and works? It's a PS3, 3!!!!!, with a 3 on the end. Pretty cool huh?"
  
  Yea, everyone else is still stuck on their first version of 2.
Is this how it went for the PS2? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 05:54 · Score: 0

The PS3 looks like it is getting to be a disaster of epic proportions. There is no way that Sony is going to be able to release a good product with a solid online service in two months considering that they haven't sent FINAL HARDWARE to the developers OR have their online service up and running! How are the developers going to test? There isnt nearly enough time to do any kind of integration test with the end user deliverables. This is especially important because it is a new platform with a complex dev environment!

Am I the only one who thinks Sony is rushing things at the last moment, or is this how it went for the PS2???
1. Re:Is this how it went for the PS2? by Reapman · 2006-09-13 06:25 · Score: 1
  
  Or perhaps, maybe, JUST MAYBE, Sony doesn't tell everything to gaming magazines?
2. Re:Is this how it went for the PS2? by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:36 · Score: 0
  
  Or perhaps, maybe, JUST MAYBE, Sony doesn't tell everything to gaming magazines?
  
  This is Sony we're talking about, and they're a company (for good or for bad) who doesn't know how to keep their mouth shut. If we were talking about Nintendo I think you might have a point being that we're within 2-4 weeks of the Wii launch (if they plan to sell 4 million by January) and we don't know the Release Date, Price, Price of Games and Accessories, Virtual Console Titles or Pricing, Online Gaming Service, or even the Technical Specs of the system.
  
  If Sony had a functioning online service they would have told us about it already, and they probably wouldn't have any games that used XFire; at E3 the only new thing on display from Sony was a rushed inclusion of motion sensing into the PS3's controller, if they had an online system it would have made an appearance.
3. Re:Is this how it went for the PS2? by DrEldarion · 2006-09-13 07:25 · Score: 1
  
  Say what you want about them, but Sony knows hype. Think about it - you tell people that there are problems, only 400,000 PS3s will be available. You create a frenzy as all the early adopters flock to preorder. Then, on release, you send out 1,000,000 and, due to the frenzy, sell out nearly immediately. Or maybe you tell everyone that your console will retail at $499, say even THAT is too cheap, then when you release, you say that due to (bullshit reason), the price has dropped to $429.
  
  Granted, these aren't likely scenarios, but they would be wonderful ways of manipulating the market. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is saving some great news for closer to launch.
4. Re:Is this how it went for the PS2? by Dobeln · 2006-09-13 07:30 · Score: 1
  
  I doubt they would have killed the European launch just to create hype.
Xbox 360 by AcidLacedPenguiN · 2006-09-13 05:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

With the news about the HD/DVD hybrid discs from yesterday, it might not be such a bad idea to do the internal HD-DVD drive. They could then leave it up to game devs to support HD, Non-HD, or both. Assuming that most game devs aren't handicapped, they'll probably opt for using that DVD/HD combo so that those of us with regular DVD drives, can play the same games as those with the HD-DVD drives (and maybe those of us with non-HD will also be allowed to read the text in their games too!)

--
disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
1. Re:Xbox 360 by Babbster · 2006-09-13 06:19 · Score: 1
  
  They can't let game developers use the HD-DVD features at all, at least not anytime soon. The prospect of gamer backlash is just too great. The only way it could possibly work is if a) the new version was, say, $100-150 more expensive than the DVD version (an addition of about 75% the price of the HD-DVD addon), b) the HD-DVD addon worked with any such HD-DVD games, AND c) they wait at least 2 years after HD-DVD addon release before turning game developers loose with HD-DVD versions of games. At that point, Microsoft might have the installed base of HD-DVD-enabled Xbox 360s to get away with it and not drive owners of the DVD versions completely bonkers.
2. Re:Xbox 360 by Frag-A-Muffin · 2006-09-13 06:23 · Score: 1
  
  They could then leave it up to game devs to support HD, Non-HD, or both.
  
  This is the worst idea I've ever heard. The whole idea behind a console is control over your platform, and a single target. Any differences SHOULD NOT AFFECT GAMES, otherwise, you're just a Console-Wannabe Windows PC. :\
  
  You're going to alienate your original fanbase, because eventually, guess what's going to happen? Devs are gonna get lazy and won't want to support both.
  
  No, it'll purely for the use of Movies. Period. I don't think Microsoft is THAT dumb as to make a new version of the same console, that'll play different games. If/when they do, it'll be exactly what it is .. a new console. The XBOX 720 or what have you.
  
  They'd do this purely to fight against Sony's bluray [movies]. For those of you who don't think MS has a vested interest in the HD-DVD vs bluray battle, think again. And yes, bluray will have java support.
  
  I'll say it again: meanwhile, Nintendo sits on the sides of this battle merrily making, wait for it ... games. :)
  
  --
  
  AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
3. Re:Xbox 360 by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:30 · Score: 0
  
  Wasn't one of the standards dictated by Microsoft that all games be 720p at a minimum and then down converted depending on the connection medium?
  
  That would imply that all 360 games support HD. The difference would be in the amount of space allocated for each game.
4. Re:Xbox 360 by DingerX · 2006-09-13 06:55 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I dunno. developers be damned. > 4 gigs of content is expensive. Most of that is gonna be Full motion video and stuff. I don't see a problem with releasing a hybrid disc, with the useless junk on the HD part, and offering promo downloads and what have you. Run that for a couple years, then towards the end of the cycle, "forget" about the DVD-only boxes. It works for Apple; it'll work for Microsoft.
5. Re:Xbox 360 by steveo777 · 2006-09-13 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, I still don't have any idea what was going on in that game. Thankfully, they put arrows at the top of your screen, and the main plot items were always on the top.
  
  --
  This sig isn't original enough, it's time to come up with something witty...
6. Re:Xbox 360 by grumbel · 2006-09-13 07:31 · Score: 1
  
  This is the worst idea I've ever heard. The whole idea behind a console is control over your platform, and a single target. Any differences SHOULD NOT AFFECT GAMES, otherwise, you're just a Console-Wannabe Windows PC.
  
  This is actually nothing new, if you had an MemoryPack on the N64 some games could run at a higher resolution, if you had a rumble pack you got rumble and similar stuff. Not having those items didn't stop you from playing those games (well, actually it did with some later games).
  
  Anyway, as long as they keep the HD-DVD content optional I don't see much problem, less compressed videos, higher resolution textures could be easily done with HD-DVD without losing backward compability. If they of course add more levels or other critical items to the games on HD-DVD they would be in throuble, but a hybrid disc which works on both drives would be quite cool, since it would give you the benefit without any loss and you could upgrade to HD-DVD whenever you want or simply never and always have the same games.
7. Re:Xbox 360 by AcidLacedPenguiN · 2006-09-13 23:49 · Score: 1
  
  I was implying that with the new Toshiba 3-layer HD-DVDs which can have either 2 layers of regular DVD (~8.5gb) and one layer of HD-DVD(~35gb) or 2 layers of HD-DVD(~70gb) and one layer of regular DVD (~4.7gb) the game developers could say, put the regular game on the regular DVD layer(s) (with only regular definition textures and CGI/FMVs) and then maybe put the ultra high resolution textures and CGI/FMVs on the HD-DVD layers. Then the game could say, look at what model you have (the regular DVD, or the HD-DVD drive) and then decide which layer to load from.
  
  This would not segment the market at all because the people who want the extra HD content to go on their nice $5000 HDTV could buy the HD-DVD XBOX360. Then the regular people who just want to play the games wouldn't have to go and buy a brand new HD-DVD Xbox360. Both groups would be buying the exact same disc, but they'd be getting content equal to what they're willing to pay for. This would put all of the pressure onto the developers to choose whether to segment the market or not.
  
  As far as the Dev's go, they'd have to be extremely foolish to only support one or the other. AFAIK if you generate a high-res texture or a high-res video, it's quite easy to downsample to save space. It wouldn't really be costing the devs that much more to generate the high-res content (they already do that, AFAIK they generate as high as they possibly can, and have since the PSX. then they downsample to fit the media/power of target system) and then keep the highres for the HD-DVD's and then just downsample on the regular DVD.
  
  So please, how is that alienating the fanbase? Also, how does blu-ray or java support have ANYTHING to do AT ALL with the current topic?
  
  --
  disclaimer: I've been known to store numbers in my ass for which to dig out when quantities are required.
I like the idea of an optional drive by ConfusedSelfHating · 2006-09-13 05:54 · Score: 1

It's much better than a mandatory high definition drive in the PS3. If the PS3 had a $350 version of the PS3 with a regular DVD-ROM and a Blu-Ray version costing $600, I think a lot of the complaints about price would go away. Even if the Xbox 360 with HD-DVD is $500 or $600, you don't have to buy that version.

I wouldn't want to get one of the formats until I purchased a 1080p TV, which will be no time soon. It seems that a lot of early adopters have been burned by purchases of 720p and 1080i TVs. So if I decide to purchase a Xbox 360, I would probably want one without the HD-DVD drive.
1. Re:I like the idea of an optional drive by Joe+The+Dragon · 2006-09-13 06:04 · Score: 1
  
  it's not the same ms said that no game will use hd-dvd but ps3 game can use it.
2. Re:I like the idea of an optional drive by Babbster · 2006-09-13 06:24 · Score: 1
  
  How is that people could have been "burned" by a significant increase in visual quality (over NTSC) that is fully compatible with HD hardware? I could see where people without DVI/HDMI (w/HDCP) might feel burned at some point down the road, but having 720p/1080i versus 1080p isn't a huge disadvantage given that such displays are [currently] fully compatible with Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, Xbox 360, PS3, etc. It would be like saying someone was "burned" when they bought a 1280x1024 screen for their PC because 1600x1200 screens are available.
3. Re:I like the idea of an optional drive by SScorpio · 2006-09-13 07:18 · Score: 1
  
  Except that the PS3 will be using Blu-Ray disks as the standard media for games. The Xbox 360 will only use the HDDVD drive to play movies and games will still be stuck with the 9GB disks.
  So unless you are planning on getting any HDDVD movies I'd definately get the 360 with the standard drive.
Good That Microsoft Is Admitting Their Mistake by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 05:55 · Score: 0

Although it does suck for people who bought one of the current systems with the old and smaller capacity DVD drives, it is good to see Microsoft admitting they made a mistake and making attempts to fix the drive space problem the 360 has.

Too many developers have come right out and flatly stated next gen games need BluRay/HD-DVD sized storage for their games for Microsoft to continue forcing developers to be confined to the ~7gig DVDs currently being used for 360 games.
1. Re:Good That Microsoft Is Admitting Their Mistake by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:17 · Score: 0
  
  Too many developers have come right out and flatly stated next gen games need BluRay/HD-DVD sized storage for their games for Microsoft to continue forcing developers to be confined to the ~7gig DVDs currently being used for 360 games.
  
  If there really are Too Many I'm certain you can go finding links to at least 5 different developers (from different studios) who think next gen games need BluRay/HD-DVD sized storage.
  
  We really don't know what Microsoft is thinking, or whether they really intend to release this product; we don't know whether Microsoft is planning for this to be a replacement system for the core/value-bundle XBox 360 or a stand alone product like the Panasonic Q was.
  
  In general, I think adding an HD-DVD drive to the XBox 360 (as anything other than a add-on) is a huge mistake; currently only about 10% of people in North America have an HDTV, few of which have a gaming system hooked up to it, and only about 25% of new TVs sold are HDTVs. Microsoft shouldn't be focusing on creating a feature rich product to compete with the PS3, they should be looking at producing a holiday bundle (XBox 360 priemium, Kameo, Perfect Dark 0, PGR, and 3 Months XBox Live for $399) and looking to drop the price in Q2 2007 (to $299, while eliminating the core system). Basically, Microsoft should be showing off how expensive and stupid Blu-Ray was as an addition (possibly advertize how many XBox games are available compared to how many Blu-Ray movies) and putting presure on Sony to reduce the price of the PS3 to keep SCE in the red for the entire generation.
  
  Sony has put themselves on their back with the PS3, there is an opportunity for Microsoft to strike for Massive Damage!
2. Re:Good That Microsoft Is Admitting Their Mistake by SScorpio · 2006-09-13 07:16 · Score: 1
  
  The HDDVD drive is going to be for movies only. Microsoft letting games go HDDVD only will only segment there market even more as there is already the huge split of people with harddrives and those without. The solution? Just use the HD to save data and don't worry about coding for extra speed using cacheing or anything. Also the DVD allow for ~9GB which is still too small for the supposed next gen HD games.
Zonked by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:06 · Score: 0

Today's news:

1. Sony says they're not using XFire. Therefore they're not.

2. Microsoft says they're not using internal HD-DVD. Therefore they are.
Microsoft Should Start Over by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:09 · Score: 0

With sales of only 3.4 million worldwide, Microsoft really has nothing to lose with coming out with a new console next year instead of just trying to fix the 360.

Include the HD-DVD drive.
Fix, really fix, the numerous hardware failure problems that plague the current 360s.
Get backwards compatibility working.
Get a better graphics system than the very botched one in the current 360, ie. 10meg EDRAM tiling AA/jaggy fiasco we are seeing

And do something hopefully to make the new console appeal to Japanese and European gamers who right now are turning their noses up at the current 360.
1. Re:Microsoft Should Start Over by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 06:27 · Score: 0
  
  Nice troll, but you Sony guys are getting desperate. The REAL facts are:
  
  1) The 360 has sold 5 million as of June 30th and is forecasting 10 million sales by Christmas (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/arch ives/106012.asp)
  2) Sony has not sent final hardware to the developers to test with. This is absolutely, utterly, insane.
  3) Sony does not have a online network going yet, and developers have nothing to test with for that either. It takes years to get a network running so dont expect it out soon.
  4) Unlike the PS2, the cheapest PS3 is too expensive for parents to buy for their kids. Even the 360 is too expensive, but the PS3 will suffer even more as parents will have already bought a 360 or will opt for the much cheaper Wii.
  
  Oh yeah, and Microsoft is going to sell a $255 360 system in Japan with 4 games to boost the flagging sales there. Also, since you are the same guy who said in a different post that game developers were DEMANDING HD-DVD/BluRay type capacities: please point us to a link where any developer is saying this. 99% of game developers dont even use up a DVD either on the console or the PC!
2. Re:Microsoft Should Start Over by spectecjr · 2006-09-13 06:47 · Score: 1
  
  Get a better graphics system than the very botched one in the current 360, ie. 10meg EDRAM tiling AA/jaggy fiasco we are seeing
  
  What the hell are you babbling about? Sure, it'd be nice to have 4x that much EDRAM so you didn't need to do predicative tiling, but it's not "very botched"... I certainly don't see a "jaggy fiasco"
  
  --
  Coming soon - pyrogyra
3. Re:Microsoft Should Start Over by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-13 07:37 · Score: 0
  
  Uh, Europe loves the 360. Despite what you want to think, the 360 is a very solid platform that is doing very well in all territories where it was released, ex-Japan.
When I Read "XFire Denied"... by eno2001 · 2006-09-13 07:09 · Score: 1

...I heard "QUAD DENIED" in my head. Hehehehe...

--
-"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
Re:burned by HD by El+Gigante+de+Justic · 2006-09-13 07:32 · Score: 1

People have been burned by HD TV purchases because:
A) There's a lack of available HD content, and you generally have to pay extra to get the HD channels from your TV provider and
B) The majority of television, which is non-HD, will often look worse on an HD TV than on a standard TV because of the increased screen size and resolution.
Re:burned by HD by Babbster · 2006-09-13 07:37 · Score: 1

Okay, those would be reasons to feel burned by HDTV in general, not reasons to feel burned for buying 720p/1080i versus buying 1080p.
Three-layer disc by tepples · 2006-09-13 07:44 · Score: 1

They can't let game developers use the HD-DVD features at all, at least not anytime soon. The prospect of gamer backlash is just too great.

Unless Microsoft uses Toshiba's new three-layer HD-DVD format with two DVD-ROM layers (for Xbox 360) and one HD layer (for additional content on the Xbox 360 Hi-Def).
1. Re:Three-layer disc by Babbster · 2006-09-13 08:02 · Score: 1
  
  I believe that even that would be a mistake (again, at least early on in the life of the HD-DVD addon). Unless that extra content consisted entirely of non-game material, like interviews with developers and such, it would end up being the same problem: Two versions of the same game that people who paid $300 and up for their console couldn't access without spending more money. I don't believe that the consolidation of the two versions into one disc would help at all in ameliorating the discontent of people who bought the "first-gen" Xbox 360.
Bending the 720p rules by tepples · 2006-09-13 07:47 · Score: 1

Wasn't one of the standards dictated by Microsoft that all games be 720p at a minimum and then down converted depending on the connection medium?

Yeah, and then some game for Xbox 360 (was it Project Gotham Racing 3?) ran at 600p and scaled up to 720p in high-definition mode.
Precedent: Game Boy Color dual-mode games by tepples · 2006-09-13 08:20 · Score: 1

Two versions of the same game that people who paid $300 and up for their console couldn't access without spending more money.

Didn't stop Nintendo from making dual-mode games that work in the monochrome Game Boy and have extra features on Game Boy Color.