Slashdot Mirror
Spamhaus to Ignore $11.7M Judgement
6031769 writes, "As reported on CNet, Spamhaus is choosing to ignore a judgement of $11.7M against them in an uncontested trial in an Illinois court. According to Spamhaus, the judgement has no impact on them, since they are a British organization." From the Spamhaus reply to the judgment: "Default judgments obtained in US county, state or federal courts have no validity in the UK and can not be enforced under the British legal system... As spamming is illegal in the UK, an Illinois court ordering a British organization to stop blocking incoming Illinois spam in Britain goes contrary to UK law which orders all spammers to cease sending spam in the first place."
The right to block Spam is important. I hope their executives don't try going over to America any time soon though. If I worked for them I'd be pretty nervous about taking transatlantic flights.
the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
If a company is sending spam why isn't the ISP for that company shutting them down? Isn't it against the AUP of most providers or at least the big carriers?
For example when you tell them that they blacklisted your IP address and you can vouche that you don't spam, but they won't do anything because you belong to a /16 where somewhere sombody is spamming. blacklisting might be a good idea, but organizations like spamhaus make it bad in practice.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
Sounds like a very appropriate response. Illinois is trying to enforce an ill-conceived law and Spamhouse is within their rights in under the laws of the country they opperate from. I do want to see the judges reaction to this one, it should be worth a laugh.
Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
>It's their attitude that I find amusing - they really couldn't give a shit.
It's your attitude that I find amusing - They are preventing an illegal acting being commited in our country. Why should they give a shit?
Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
Before we all go off half cocked about Illinois coursts and how stupid the decision was... It was a default Judgment which means Spamhaus failed to show up in court and the Judge found in the plaintiffs failure.. Shame on them from not coming to fight it, and shame on us for putting judges in place that can not see through some technical jargon to realize when something is total crap and dismiss it on lack of merits.
How did the Illinois judge decide they had jurisdiction over a UK-only company in the first place? I thought courts throw out cases that they have no jurisdiction over.
Agreed. I would support a bill to legalize assassination. Wouldn't our spammers and government officials think twice if their actions were going to get them killed/tortured/beaten/imprisoned?
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
But that's what the US does, assumes whatever works there works throughout the world whether it's laws or just general ways of life. people and companies throughout the world are constantly fending off legal actions in regard to things that are quite legal on their home turf but illegal in the US.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
Not a chance. Failing to reply to an incorrectly served, non-jurisdictional court order for a country that you don't operate in, by a Judge with no savvy at all and on a law that not only doesn't exist in the UK but which operates under the OPPOSITE principle (i.e. if you spam, that's illegal in itself)? They wouldn't even give it a second thought.
They'd probably use it AGAINST the people who were trying to sue Spamhaus - poor lawyering, scaremongering, trying to impose laws across international jurisdictions, playing judges off against one another etc.
What if they say "We recommend you don't buy a (product) because it's made from squashed babies". When the product isn't?
You, like everyone else in this story, have no idea what you're talking about.
Before you call the judge "clue-imparied" again maybe you should "get a clue" about what a default judgement means and what Spamhuas had to do (or rather not do) to wind up having one entered against them.
Somebody here is clueless, and I'm pretty sure it's not the judge.
Yeah, but the question of whether it would be legally binding or not also depends on a lot of other things, such as the jurisdiction and whether it's a reasonable venue... an Illinois court is no more a reasonable venue for a UK-only company than the planet Jupiter. You could not be reasonably expected to absorb the costs of defending yourself in a foreign country like that, without even mentioning travel costs, legal costs, unfamiliarity with the law etc. the fact that what you did is not illegal in your country etc.
Judgement or not, it's null and void on more than one account - improperly served, incorrect jurisdiction, unreasonable venue, etc. the list goes on. The error, unfortunately, lies with the judge here for failing to account for jurisdiction.
>> serving legal papers by EMAIL? WTF?
Indeed, serving legal papers by email to a group you're suing for dropping your emails.
Damn, with a name like e360insight, is is f*cking OBVIOUS that they are spammers. Or purveyors of fine spyware. Or both.
Maybe spammers should also follow local laws in the foreign countries in which they spam^H^H^H^H^H operate.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
Spamhaus provide a special version of their ROKSO database to law enforcement (if requested) which not only contains all their details, but logs and other information to backup the claims that they are spammers.
The court case was probably done in the States because they knew Spamhaus would not contest it and then they can turn round and say "we're not spammers and have won court cases to prove it".
No because the spammer does not own property in the UK, spamhous do.
they run a mirror of their servers from within the US, therefore they should either remove their servers from the country or abide by the laws and regulations placed in that country.
liqbase
If I were Spamhaus, I'd definitely put any USA travel plans on hold into the indefinite future. Even transiting in airports is dangerous these days.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
IANAL, but I believe the Full Faith and Credit clause of the US Constitution allows rulings and judgements to be imposed in other states.
IANAG (I Am Not A Geographer), but I believe the United Kingdom is not actually beholden to the US Constitution since (and this my come as a shock to some /. readers) the UK isn't actually a state within the US... I know... I know... shocking... isn't it?
meh... who needs good karma anyway :)
Oh god, that woman is John Romero!
It means that the other side didn't even show up. It also means that the court didn't bother looking into the merits of the case. One of the claims could have been that the operators of Spamhaus were little green men from Pluto and no one would even notice.
No precedent has been set. None.
The court didn't decide that the claimant was right, or that spamhaus was doing anything wrong. The one and only thing that the court gave an opinion on was whether or not the defendant appeared.
See that "Preview" button?
But, this is against a non-profit organization, that just compiles a database and allows access for free.
Hardly what I'd call a 'business' in the classical sense. They aren't selling anything, not making money...and not forcing anyone to use their list. I don't see how you can sue someone for making a list of something available...
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
To quote (approximately) President Andrew Jackson, "The court has rendered its judgement. Now, let's see them enforce it."
Good, inexpensive web hosting
Yes, the spammer MIGHT be able to recover part of their 11+ million dollar judgment this way. I'll bet those servers might be worth a whole $5000 on eBay!
Spamhaus, in turn, will merely need to set up a new mirror in Canada to serve the US. If they're smart, they should already be contemplating such a move. A Canadian mirror would still serve their US customers just as quickly, but would put the servers out of the courts reach.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.