Slashdot Mirror
Maryland Fights to Keep E-voting
crystalattice writes "Apparently Maryland election officials never have computer problems. That's why they're fighting so hard to keep their Diebold e-voting machines. Washington Post reporter Marc Fisher received nothing but bad attitudes, dodges, and excuses when he attempted to discuss the issue with the state elections administration and Diebold." From the article: "I asked the state's elections administrator, Linda Lamone, whether Maryland wasn't just a bit too quick to adopt electronic voting. Doesn't the computer at your desk ever freeze up on you? 'No,' she replied. Never? 'No.' But surely people in your office have had that experience? 'No.' (Maybe we've found the solution to Maryland's voting problem: Everybody head on down to Linda Lamone's office, where the machines work 100 percent of the time.)"
Maybe they dont use Windows software on their computers??
...everyone in Linda's office uses either Linux, OSX, or BSD?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Any bets on how long till the underpaid helpdesk personal that are always having to run around and fix all their computers "which never fail" posts the helpdesk logs on the internet?
"reality has a well-known liberal bias" - Steven Colbert
...that it is the Republican Maryland governor fighting for paper ballots and the Maryland Democrats fighting to keep everything on e-voting.
open source is not the answer here. open source only gives you transparency as far as what the author wrote, not what is actually running on the machine.
paper ballots are what are needed. simply to use, proven methodology. count in the open, or under video tape, and only send in the results.
In Maryland, Deocrats outnumber Republicans 2:1. The Republican governor is in an extremely tight race where turnout could be the deciding factor. Current trends indicate Democrats across the country are set to turn out in large numbers, which would hurt the governor's chances for reelection. So he has called into question the election process, and has been actively telling people to stay away from the polls and instead fill out absentee ballots - despite the fact that he recently vetoed a bill that would make it easier for people to do just that. (The Democrat-controlled legislature overruled his veto.) This isn't just a matter of whether it's a good idea to use electronic voting machines; it's a matter of a seasoned politician trying to exploit the political machine a matter of weeks before an election. Please remember to keep all of that in mind.
http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/
But "open source" voting systems are just as useless as proprietary ones without a permanent voter-verifiable paper audit trail.
In fact, given the choice of 1.) open source voting systems, and 2.) a permanent voter-verifiable paper audit trail, you'd be foolish not to pick 2.) every time.
Now if we could have both, fantastic. However, you'll probably go a LOT further arguing for a paper trail in ALL instances than trying to unseat traditional enterprise and commercial vendors in any market.
I live in Merlin. As I understand it, the following issues are affecting this decision:
1. The election officials don't believe that they can re-gear the process in time for the general election, which is only 6 weeks away. I certainly don't think they can pull it off, given their record so far.
2. The Democratic leadership is convinced that Republican Gov. Erlich is trying to suppress the vote in this majority Democratic state by raising fears about the process. They have good reason to believe this, as he has consistently fought efforts to make it easier for people to vote. Yesterday he urged everyone to use absentee ballots, yet last year he fought efforts to make it easier for people to use those ballots. He also vetoed a bill to allow early voting, which is popular in working districts (mostly Democratic) because some people have trouble getting to the polls on Election Day. When the legislature overrode his veto, he fought the law in court and won.
So as much as I hate and distrust the machines (I'm applying for an absentee ballot myself), I'm on the side of the Dem leadership and the election people (a bipartisan group).
No sig? Sigh...
This is probably the number-one reason why electronic voting machines aren't ready for the real world, probably never will be. People understand and can work with paper; no fancy training necessary.
What will happen if people who were trained can't make it on election day (sickness, car accident, etc.)?
Insisting on "correct" English is like saying that there is only one, definitive recipe for chili.
I am worried about the possibility of mallicious actions, I could care less if a few machines lock up and people have to wait a bit to vote. And I don't believe the machines will spontaneously make accidental mistakes that lose people's votes. I worry only about humans, whether they be programmers or elections officials purposefully rigging the system.
Thus I don't care if her machine locks up or not. Stupid question that shouldn't have been asked as it sidetracks the issue.
Sadly, I think the tech-savvy readers are the majority of people thinking this whole thing is a really bad idea. Unfortunately, there's not enough of us with deep pockets and loud enough voices to stop this potential train wreck in time.
I would like to extend a thanks to Marc Fisher for being an actual reporter.
Let's start dragging these guys over hot coals, there's absolutely no practical reason unless you're trying to rig an election (in my opinion) to switch to e-voting.
Error 407 - No creative sig found
Do you think these officials are outrigh lying and conspiring to subvert the democractic process for a few meager bucks. Most of the subversives in charge of the Maryland voting system recieve no monies, but instead the kudos and respect from their superiors. In time, they may also get a slice of the power for their efforts, and will then be free to stamp on a few faces.
Did the communist revolutionaries get paid? No, they did what they did because they belived what they were doing was right. Just as absolutist Republician party members believe what they are doing by rigging elections is also right, because it helps the "godly and patriotic" stay in power. These people don't believe in democracy or freedom or rights. They believe whatever they want to and have only contempt for those who disagree.
So don't follow the money trail. It won't be that simple, because these people are working on different rules. Their kickbacks will only come after it's too late to expose them.
May the Maths Be with you!
-9999999999, Fact contrary to the Slashdot Hive Mind line.
I believe it was the rousing Ad campaign that has them sold them on Diebold voting machines
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be-T J
I'm not really interested in which party the presence or absence of e-voting would hurt. I am just primarily interested in the voting process being fair. But:
You claim that what we're seeing here is an unpopular incumbent trying to discourage people from voting at all by waiting until the last minute and then trying to raise questions about the voting process.
So why not just do what the Washington Post reporter suggested and the allegedly unpopular governor appears to be now advocating, and switch to paper ballots for the election? Why can't they do this? Why would this be bad for anybody? How would this benefit the incumbent governor over anyone else?
If you have to work around the clock to make the voting machines usable, then there was a SEVERE problem with them when they came from the manufacturer. Rushing to get them operable before election, instead of scrapping them entirely, is pretty crazy. There's more.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
I don't think he was slandering the party. He was calling out the extremist wing of the party that unfortunately has hijacked the party. No one is suggesting that all Republicans are corrupt, election-rigging holy rollers, but the ones that are doing this crap are.
Also, we aren't talking about corruption in any other party because the Republican party is the one in power here, and they're the ones pulling this shit. Are there corrupt Democrats? Of course. Have some Democrats done nasty things to subvert free and fair elections? Yes. That doesn't mean we have to be "fair and balanced" and bring up what the Democrats did 30 years ago every time we talk about what the Republicans are doing now. What the Democrats do or did has no bearing at all on the fact that what the Republicans are doing now is wrong.
Yes, corruption is rife in government. That does not mean we have to acknowledge every corrupt act by every government official in every party to discuss it. We identify corrupt practices and complain about them individually. Painting the whole government as necessarily corrupt just gives everyone the idea that corruption is just fine because "everyone is doing it." The fact of the matter is that the Republicans are in power, and their corruption is hurting the country more than anyone else's because of that fact.
I've never been to a polling place that had all booths open, electric or otherwise.
I know what you mean. Last time I went to an election with punch-out paper ballots, some of the booths were blocked off with "out of order" signs -- the paper wasn't working in those ones. People complain about the unreliability of e-voting, but it's really not any worse than it used to be.
......
Okay, I'm making fun. A little. But really, have you never been to a polling location that had all boths open? Ever, using any (lack of) technology? Granted, I've only been through a few election cycles, but I haven't observed that at all.
I am the man with no sig!
Would you be defending this situation in the exact same manner as you just did if it the Republican and Democratic tables in this situation were turned?
I will opine that you would indeed not be, and that there are many who would be quick to defend anyone who is non-Republican, and vilify Republicans in any part of this process, even if it conflicts with their other beliefs (e.g., that electronic voting is bad in general).
If electronic voting is so horrible, and indeed, if there really are active conspiracies within Diebold and within the e-voting process that would allow Republicans to steal elections under the radar, it should be no problem for the governor to hold onto power, right?
Even if every single assertion and assumption you make is true, I highly doubt that you, or any others reading it that find themselves rationalizing this in their minds, would be so quick to make this rationalizing argument that is implicitly in favor of Diebold, paperless e-voting if the Republican and Democratic places were switched in this instance.
Look up your favorite Democrats at OpenSecrets and find out about how much of their campaign money comes from the Hollywood content cartel. . . and you won't need to wonder just where bullshit like the DMCA comes from. Hint: In Hillary Clinton's career campaign contribution profile of individual donors, Disney (as in The Path to 9/11) is #15.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Linda Lamone later stated that the buildings are kept to the proper temperature in order to prevent computers to freeze.
If the Democrats are hijacking the electoral process, stealing votes, perpetrating widespread electoral fraud, participating in voter intimdation, and just generally doing their best to corrupt free and open elections... they certainly haven't been doing a very good job of it.
Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to conviction
Also, we aren't talking about corruption in any other party because the Republican party is the one in power here
Maybe you didn't read the article (I must be new here), but we're talking about Maryland here. In fact, Democrats are in power, and in fact the Republicans have been the ones challenging the electronic voting.
Don't let facts get in the way though! No blood for oil! Chimpy McBushitler is the devil!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Lamone was appointed by Democrats in the State House and has been backed by them even as she keeps giving them Hideous advice. Maryland's governor is a Republican and a great deal of this shoving back and forth over the machines has devolved to party wrangling. This is the interesting part about the whole e-voting situation. In some states poor systems are being instated and backed by Republicans (Ohio, California, etc.) In other states the very same systems are being doggedly defended by Democrats (Maryland, Pennsylvania, etc.). In some states such as Maryland it is Republican governors who are taking the lead in cleaning things up and in others it is Democratic governors like Bill Richardson of New Mexico who are taking charge. Ultimately its not about party nationally but local party power. Who ever was in power was sweet talked by the manufacturers who, at the end of the day, just want the billions of tax dollars that Bob Ney made us spend on this.
There are some great videos of Linda Lamone on Youtube:
Ditching e-voting at this stage would require Ms. Lamone to effectively admit either failure or error on her part (or that of her staff [same thing]). It's a shame people like this cannot understand that short-term failure is an integral part of long-term success. Find out what doesn't work, fix it, and move on...
"If you want to succeed, double your failure rate." - Thomas J. Watson (Founder of IBM)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
It's not money that's being tossed around here. It's power.
I wouldn't be so quick to put your finger on either money or power. Sometimes people just react to authority without thinking for themselves. Look at the Millgram Experiment. Otherwise normal people can do things that are beyond reason when they are given prior instructions from some authority figure.
The problem with bureaucrats (just like everyone else) is often a much more insidious a form of corruption. They actually might believe what they are doing is reasonable, even when it can clearly be shown to be overly complicated, expensive and vulnerable to being compromised compared to simpler methods. And there reasoning could be as simple as 'that's what I was told'. We all do it. We are told something that is untrue and in restrospect completely unreasonable, problem here is that they really do want to make elections run more smoothly and be easier on the old ladies that end up running the polling stations. And they have been told by diebold and the like that the rest of us are merely luddites and our concerns are unwarranted. Which has a ring of truth to it.
It is going to take more authority figures to come out and say electronic voting has some fundamental flaws when there isn't a paper trail and a paper backup. And the economics of electronic voting should only be considered if you take into account the need for both of those things.
I think if Michael Dell or Steve Jobs or somebody that had some authority, in some people's minds, were to come out and say what thousands of other well respected people have already said then maybe the message could get through. But there are many trade shows, many voting machine industry symposiums, many flashy ads and pointed sales pitches to get past for the people that run elections for a living.
So yes it is a type of corruption, but not the money in a paper bag kind. It is just hard to convince someone of something was they have been told over and over again to believe otherwise.
Some people probably do think about making it harder for people to vote and easier to rig elections. But they are not the problem, it is the people that follow them or listen to them that need to have their minds changed with reason.
True story.
... they blocked off a few streets, and there were tons of vendors, performers, etc etc. Sandwiched between a flower stand and a sunglasses place was a Diebold booth with 2 reps talking up how great the system was, etc. etc. They actually had a few people there trying out the machine.
I live in Baltimore, and recently we had a flower mart downtown
Enter me. I walk up, admittedly predispositioned to not like Diebold, and asked them some questions.
1. What hard copy proof can I have of my vote?
2. Where is the paper trail with physical evidence of all votes?
3. In the case of a recount, what validation process is in place to ensure the machine's records are correct?
They gave me some BS about how at the end of the polling you can print out a list of all votes entered. I told them what I was asking for was a single, one-person, one-vote physical record, not a grand list at the end of the night. They had absolutely no answer to any of these questions.
Then I brought up the many instances of Diebold machines being hacked and asked them what security measures were in place to fix this issues. I was told they were not aware of any issues and that the machines were unhackable. I asked them if they knew how absolutely ridiculous this sounded.
At this point, some other folks had become aware of the conversation and were starting to ask the same questions about accountability and verification processes. They 2 reps balked and stalled while I pressed further, citing specific cases where Diebold machines had been compromised and blasted them for basically lying about the 'unhackability' of their machines.
Then 1 of the reps walked away. A few minutes later he returned with 2 police officers who asked me to leave. I had not raised my voice, acted theatening, or any other misconduct that would warrant my being ejected. I told the officers I was simply concerned about my right to vote being taking seriously and protected and wanted my questions answered by a company rep while I had the opportunity. The officers told me I was being disruptive. Other people came to my defense. One of the officers had his hand on his gun. They asked if I would rather be removed against my will.
So I left.
"Welcome to Maryland - You'll vote electronic and you'll LIKE it! Or else we might arrest you for asking too many questions."
You're right, I was referring to what the other post was saying, not the article. In the Maryland case, the Democrats are at fault, and are rightly being called out for it. The point still remains that when someone complains about what a particular party is doing, that doesn't automatically mean they think what the other party is doing is right, and it also doesn't mean you need to bring up what the other party is doing, because it's irrelevant.
The Maryland case may be Democratic officials deciding that vote rigging is okay because the Republicans have been getting away with it elsewhere. If that's the case, then that would illustrate how dangerous that sort of thinking is. The other guy doing something wrong does not make it right to do that thing yourself.
Also, we aren't talking about corruption in any other party because the Republican party is the one in power here
How convenient. So in New Jersey, Chicago, South Florida, California, etc. you're all over the corrupt Democrats? Unlikely. Incidentally, the Maryland House of Delegates and the Maryland Senate are controlled by Democrats. The Maryland judiciary (court of appeals) is no bastion of conservative thought either, led by chief judge Robert Bell. So what if you've got a conservative governor - the rest of the government (especially those who control purchasing) are all liberal.
and they're the ones pulling this shit
Interesting. I haven't seen a single Democrat oppose election fraud and demand identification. They come up with the most bizarre excuses - claiming they're poll taxes (when the legislation pays for the cost of the ID if someone has a financial hardship), claim racial profiling (as if minorities don't have IDs to buy beer, smokes, etc.) and other bizarre arguments. Yes, Diebold is incompetent and should be thrown over a cliff. Yes, ES&S doesn't give a damn about security (they claim that's the responsibility of the vendor of the operating system they use) and should be banned. But as long as we continue wearing partisan blinders, we'll be stuck with this mess.
It's all "Hey, look over there... while we steal the vote here" misdirection.
bring up what the Democrats did 30 years ago every time we talk about what the Republicans are doing now.
Where've you been for 30 years? South Florida's hanging/swinging chad and poorly designed "a vote for Gore is a vote for Buchanan" ballets was all incompetent Democrat election commissioner stuff. New Jersey and Chicago are constant nightmares. What about the convictions in Wisconsin for Democratic party employees interfering with elections? What about the Democrat party sponsored voter registration programs at illegal alien rallies? I'm glad you do recognize the corruption of 30 years ago - you should read about how Halliburton has repeatedly bought elections in Texas and how they made a Senator who later became President. Any guesses who that could be? Hint: His wife is one of the largest Halliburton stock owners.
The reality is that both parties are at war to out-do each other, while fat cats like Halliburton buy and control both sides. As long as we have fools who excuse the criminality of their party and oppose necessary reform (like showing a photo ID to vote) based on absurd, irrational excuses, we'll have fraud.
The reality is that we geeks miss the big crime while getting agitated about the insignificant ones. We're looking for grand conspiracies involving voting machines that are complicated and require incredible collusion, while the obvious crime stares us in the face. Let me ask: why go to all the trouble to hack into machines when a political party can load up bus loads of illegals, drive to Wisconsin, show no ID and swing an election with thousands of bogus votes? You don't need sophisticated tools to hack the cash register when the drawer is already open.
If you really want to stick it to the fat cats, quit blaming the other party and force both to clean up their acts.
You know, I've noticed that's what republicans tend to say every time this comes up. The simple fact is that some republicans (note that the GP also explicitly limited his comment to a subset of republicans) felt that it was appropriate to steal the election. Twice. But what's actually more of a concern to me is that their party almost unanimously supported them after they succeeded in stealing it. Right after the 2000 election, pretty much any republican you talked to would spew the party line about how the democrats were just bitter because they lost, and that if people can't properly punch their cards, they don't deserve to have their votes counted.
Of course, what REALLY went on in Florida was a double-header between a firm being paid to compile a list of those who are not permitted to vote, and being explicitly told not to check it for validity, when the people on the list are almost all from predominantly black neighborhoods; and also that for one predominantly black district using the scantron-type forms, the scanner was set to silently accept and discard mismarked forms, instead of rejecting them for correcting, as it was in a nearby district predominantly filled with white voters. Apparently, in Florida, only white voters have the right to correct their ballot if mismarked.
Every time this is brought up, someone tries to distract the conversation from the actual issue, corruption. They try to demonize the victims, saying it must be their fault.
Every time someone does that, they lose another little piece of their soul. How much is left of yours? He just mentioned it in passing as a negative example, and you chose to examine that portion of his comment rather than the meat of it. While it does illustrate the principle you discussed, we need to get that information out into the wild so that it can be examined critically. There has not been a president so in need of impeachment, well, probably ever.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
If an OS crashes, most of the time it's buggy device drivers. At least from what I've seen. I've seen every version of windows act weird, and I've seen every version act rock solid, the onyl major difference was the hardware. Linux is more stable more often, but even in Linux a bad device driver can take down your system. Macs tend to be the most stable because Apple makes (made? I've been out of the Mac game for a while) most of the hardware themselves.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
I hate DMCA as much as the next Slashdotter, and the Democrats who've been supporting the telcos and fighting Net Neutrality deserve to be thrown out too.
But let's not pretend there's "enough blame to go around". There has never been a congress as corrupt as the Republicans who've been in control since 1994 and there's never been an administration as foul as the Bush Junta. We heard this kind of bullshit after Jack Abramoff was found to have purchased the votes of scores of Republican congressmen and senators. "Well, the Democrats took $500 from Jack Abramoff, so that shows they're just as corrupt as Bob Ney who took over a million dollars and actually SOLD HIS EFFING VOTE to the highest bidder." It's a red herring and complete crap. Even if the Democrats did take money they haven't had anything to sell to the generous donors like Abramoff who have purchased the Republican Party and Bush Presidency.
Let's not forget that since 2000 the Democratic Party has exactly ZERO power in Washington. They've been completely shut out of the legislative process by rules changes and the "K Street Project." 3 million-plus Americans have gone from "getting by" to outright poverty since Bush and Co. took over. 40 million Americans-plus don't have health insurance of any kind since Bush and Co. took over. And the war, tax cuts only for people who make more than $250k, this shiny new security apparatus and the "rebuilding" of Afghanistan and Iraq are all being put on the USA Credit Card so my kids and grandkids can pay it off while eating macaroni and cheese. How do you think they're paying for those secret prisons, wiretaps, and data mining? You think black hoods and stun guns are free?
If there is anything in government that you don't like since 2000, you can bet that no Democrat has had anything to do with it. Not that they're such fantastic leaders, but there is nothing about the last 6 years you can pin on them. Nothing. And I know Republicans hate to hear this, but the guy who was supposed to be protecting the American Homeland on September 11, 2001 was George W. Bush. No other. NOT Bill Clinton. Say it again until it sinks in. It was a Republican President who told the National Security Advisor a year before 9/11 after being told Osama bin Laden should be a top priority "OK, you've covered your butt." It was the BUSH ADMINISTRATION that said our soldiers would be greeted with flowers and candy when they marched into Baghdad (this is absolutely true. spend a few minutes with Google to see for yourself) and it was a Republican Vice President (the guy with the evil, baby's-blood-drinking sneer) who said"The war in Iraq will be over in weeks rather than years.
I could go on (and I probably will, soon), but the next person who tells me "oh, there's plenty of blame to be spread around the two parties) is going to get my size 11 Hush Puppy right up his crack. Now, "alizard" if that is your real name, why don't you go dunk your head? That BS isn't going to play around here any more.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Just because she says she never saw a computer crash doesn't mean she's lying. A more apprpriate question is "Have you ever seen a computer, then?" Why, just this coming Monday, John Titor and I went back to Victorian England for some ancient sight-seeing. I asked this pretty young lady exactly the same question...
Me: Have you ever seen a computer crash?
Her: [pause] No.
Me: Have you heard of any derailed mag-lev trains in your life?
Her: Never.
Me: Is my friend's TMS-600 hot plasma cannon capabable of penetrating your fuzzy-logic-selective personal EM force-shield?
Her: Sir! I am insulted! Absolutely not! *slap*
With that, I have concluded that old Victorian England had amazingly reliable computers that never crashed, mag-lev trains that haven't seen a single fatality for at least twenty years, and personal defense technology is so advanced that it can defeat even anti-armor weaponry. I don't know how the human race has fallen so far in the last hundred years or so, but John has assured me that we won't have to worry about that in 34 years.
So yes, I can see how the office mentioned in the article has never had a computer crash.
Solomon
"Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
Well said. You're posting annonymously so unfortunately you will probably not be read by most of the people here.
It's unfortunate that so many people are so focused on what the latest democrat and republican scandals are that they don't see that they're really getting fucked from both sides. Neither party gives a flying fuck about "average Joe" in America. They care about power and money.
Because both parties have proven to be beyond contempt, I've decided I will never vote for another republican or democrat again. Sure, it narrows my choices a lot but at least I can sleep at night.
It's true that we get the government we deserve.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Just remember that the majority of things you and I don't like coming out of the Beltway were voted into law with the help of Democrats. You know, people like your friend, Joe Lieberman. Remember the bankruptcy bill?
I'll just say that if the Democrats are so powerless, why does the entertainment industry think their votes are worth buying? You need to call Disney and tell them they're wasting their money when they give it to Senator Clinton.
Ever heard of the Democratic Leadership Council? Did you know that it has accepted funding from the Bradley, Olin, and Smith-Richardson Foundations. . . i.e. the same people who fund the rest of the right-wing noise machine?
How about the the Democratic Party's brave stand against torture. . . listen to them roar. [sound of crickets chirping] OK, how about Pelosi's brave defense of Bush against what Chavez said about him? At least that actually happened.
I vote Democratic these days and I'll contribute and work for the occasional progressive Democrat. But respect our elected Democrats in Washington? You've got to be kidding.
Perhaps after Lamonting a few more DLC types, the rest will suddenly act like people worthy of respect.
As for your shoe, I suggest you pull it out of your mouth before figuring out what to do with it. Perhaps it might fit up your ass?
Tech Public Policy stuff
Election officials get jobs at voting machine vendors, and my summary for your friends and relatives.
Georgia officials handed over the election to Diebold:
They exploited their illegally unsupervised opportunity:
Then they covered up their exploit:
It worked. We don't know the role of the patch in Georgia's vote tallies, just as we don't even know what was in the patch. We didn't even know about the extent to which Diebold ran the Georgia election until these guys started talking - years after the fact.
Remember, Diebold is the company whose CEO said in 2003 about the following year's reelection of Bush that he's "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."
And Diebold is counting the votes again this year.
--
make install -not war