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Apple iTunes Upsampling Higher Resolution Videos?

An anonymous reader writes "Engadget has a revealing look at Apple upsampling some of their new 640x480 videos from lower quality 320x240 videos. In fact, their upsampling appears to produce lower quality videos than quickly upsampling yourself with Quicktime. The worst part may be that Apple is charging people to download these new higher resolution videos even if they've already purchased the original, so people are essentially paying for nothing."

25 of 201 comments (clear)

  1. Why? by Watson+Ladd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This makes no sense. Apple could use quicktime on all of the videos with ease, or resample. But instead they make the quality worse then if they had used Quicktime. I don't see how Apple wouldn't have used Quicktime in the first place considering they made it. Computer time really isn't an issue for Apple.

    --
    Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
    1. Re:Why? by MicrosoftRepresentit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple doesn't do the upsampling, their content providers do. Blame Apple for not putting more pressure on them (although Apple are still in the 'beggars cant be choosers' stage here, so they probably cant put any pressure on at all), blame the providers for crappy quality.

    2. Re:Why? by PowerKe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Upsampling will not put more information in the picture. It just makes it look better. Possibly Apple is using the same way to upsample the video as you'd do yourself using Quicktime. However, when they have to recompress the video to distribute the upsampled video, there will be another round of quality loss. This is probably what makes the video from Apple look worse than just upsampling yourself.

    3. Re:Why? by aplusjimages · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't understand why they didn't forsee that one day i-pod screens would be larger, so they should keep everything in its native size (the largest SD resolution possible). I work at a mobile content company and we make video ringtones, but we have copies of all are videos at the highest resolution, because we know that one day cell phones and mobile devices will be able to handle the higher resolutions. It prevents us from having to re-edit all those videos. When the time comes, I just run a simple batch and all are videos are ready.

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    4. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Apple doesn't do the upsampling, their content providers do."

      Actually, in this case, I believe they are doing the upsampling. Generally, the larger labels really don't care about reencoding what they've already put up there -- they only care about getting the new stuff up there.

      I'm not sure why everyone thought that just because there is a new format, everything was going to be magically resubmitted to Apple.

      At the same time, a good friend of mine just sent a note stating his lable just got word from Apple that at least the audio components of the iTS (I guess its no longer the iTMS) are going to need uploaded in Apple Lossless Format. Does this mean Apple is looking forward to holding the uncompressed files and transmitting compressed or are they going to do the lossless files to the customer? He didn't know because the note said nothing about it.

      Personally, I've never worried about the quality of the videos and all that. The videos are almost always better than I get from my local cable station...whatever that may be. After Battlestar went iTMS last year, I stopped doing the torrent thing and bought them from Apple (I also bought them on DVD, so I was never worried about the torrent stuff...I buy when I have a legal alternative). The iTMS vids were lesser quality than the torrents, *BUT* you never really noticed unless you were either completely anal or had paused a shot. Either way, the content of the show was there and it wasn't like Apple was providing an abridged version of the content. Same with music...as a former professional musician (and by that, I don't mean I've played a few bars) I've never really worried about CD vs. MP3 and I know very few pros that do. I use to get all sorts of promos and prereleases and everything else on CD...now they all send URLs to pick up the MP3s and they are happy with what it is. The last time I got a CD was at a release party and even then it was hinted that since I wasn't a journalist, there were only limited copies available.

      This just goes back to content over 'quality'. Bad pop music with a limited lifespan? Yeah, it better be 100% lossless and the video at HD quality -- I'm going to get sick of it with each passing listen, so it needs to be perfect each time or I'll discard it that much faster. True classics? Well, I just transfered some shitty reel to reel studio outtake from an old blues guitarist that had molded up in someones basement to digital...there are dropouts and songs that just end and a general dampness about the sound that distorts it and makes it sound like its playing through wet cardboard...and its PERFECT. I couldn't imagine listening to this in any other format.

      I guess this is the difference between consumers and creators. Consumers can't add anything to what they buy...creators will fill in the blanks in their head and be satisfied without whinging endlessly about getting ripped off.

      I've ranted too long on this subject...

    5. Re:Why? by jcr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, in this case, I believe they are doing the upsampling.

      Nope. Everything you can download from the iTMS today was submitted by the labels.

      At the same time, a good friend of mine just sent a note stating his lable just got word from Apple that at least the audio components of the iTS (I guess its no longer the iTMS) are going to need uploaded in Apple Lossless Format. Does this mean Apple is looking forward to holding the uncompressed files and transmitting compressed or are they going to do the lossless files to the customer?

      Neither. It means that Apple's getting too many complaints about the labels botching the conversion, so they want to do the compression in-house for quality control.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:Why? by cmdrbuzz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Close, its Apple Compressor that does the conversion of formats.
      It can also use Qmaster to use multiple machines in Batch.

      Kinda like the Acrobat Distiller of movies, and its part of Final Cut Studio.

    7. Re:Why? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, you don't just "skip even numbered pixels". This results in major quality loss.

      You want to take an average of every four pixels and use that to generate the new pixel. This results in a much higher quality image because you're using all the information in the original image to generate the final result, instead of only a quarter of it.

      -Z

    8. Re:Why? by pclminion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Upsampling will not put more information in the picture. It just makes it look better.

      Sure it puts information in the picture. Anything that isn't just doubling pixels has to, by definition, put some kind of information in the picture. The question is whether that information is "close to" what the REAL information would have been if the video had originally been shot at a higher resolution.

      I've played with neural networks that "upsample" an image to double its original resolution, and the results (for a network properly trained on the appropriate types of images) are pretty stunning. It's not a general purpose thing by any means, but it does show how interpolating upsamplers can actually insert information into the image. Does that information come from anywhere "real?" I assert that it does, because images are not entirely random (or even close to it) and extra information can be inferred from relationships in the data (this is why lossy compression works).

      Of course, what you really care about isn't the information content, but the subjective quality of the upsampled image. There's no real relationship between "extra bits" and perceived image quality. This is why general case upsampling is a very arcane subject.

  2. What's the point of paying twice? by dohzer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Another reason to buy physical CDs/DVDs rather than downloads.

    1. Re:What's the point of paying twice? by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I would say it is similar to paying for a CD of a record you already had on vinyl.

      I disagree. CDs offer some advantages over vinyl, such as track skipping and fewer quality issues such as rumble and warpage. This would be more similar to someone borrowing your vinyl record and converting it to a CD, then selling it back to you. Except that is also a bad analogy as in this example you are at least paying for their time. Upsampling a bunch of videos is a simple hands-off batch script.

      Usually when you buy a CD of something you had on vinyl, the CD is taken from the original master. This is the biggest flaw in your analogy; the CD does not derive from the existing product. These "high-quality" videos are simply relabled low-quality ones. In any other consumer product that would be illegal due to false advertising; certainally that is the case under UK law.

      It's always interesting seeing an Apple story first thing on a Saturday morning. The Apple astroturfers that post here aren't working yet, so the discussion is quite candid. Compare to how it looks in four or five hours. If anyone is really bored, you could do a little study on post time vs post point-of-view. I think slashdot is crying out for this kind of study; it's quite possibly the most astroturfed site on the net.

  3. What are the terms of use for videos on iTMS by DrXym · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Apple made a big song and dance of the fact that you can transfer songs, and burn them to CD. Can you burn downloaded movies to DVD or are you restricted to play them on one or two devices?

    1. Re:What are the terms of use for videos on iTMS by mblase · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're not allowed to burn downloaded videos to a video DVD, but you can back them up as a file to a DVD and play it again on iTunes.

      This is a restriction imposed on Apple by the video owners, and was pretty much the only way they could get video on the iTunes Store at all. Hopefully they're still negotiating to have that particular block removed.

  4. moral implications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To me, this is far more egregious than Sony's rootkit fiasco.

    I've personally written software that had undesigned implications.
    but...
    I've never taken money, a second time, from anyone, knowing that I had already sold them that very same thing.

    The difference is incompetance vs. intentional malice driven by greed.
    I'll always choose to associate with a fool rather than someone I am certain is out to get me.

  5. Upsampling by Random+Q.+Hacker · · Score: 5, Funny

    In other news, Apple was discovered to have upsampled regular commodity PCs into more expensive versions with no real additional benefits. A source at Apple revealed that their upsampling engine, code named "marketing", could turn any piece of crap hardware into something people would buy. Cited as their greatest achievement was the "iPod", a device that had been upsampled and resold over five times, with it's users apparently none the wiser.

  6. Message to Apple: by 10Ghz · · Score: 3, Funny

    You are becoming retarded. Stop it. Please.

    --
    Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
  7. Not to be an Apple apologist, but... by Chucker23N · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...as far as I know, encoding is handled not by Apple, but by the providers. Which, as a matter of fact, explains the discrepancy in the Engadget post: some videos look good at higher-res, whereas others appear to have been upsampled.

    Most likely, not Apple is to blame, but the content providers, some of whom were apparently too lazy or stupid or stingy to provide truly higher-res versions.

    1. Re:Not to be an Apple apologist, but... by jcr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...as far as I know, encoding is handled not by Apple, but by the providers.

      That is correct. This has been confirmed to me personally on several occasions by iTMS staff.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    2. Re:Not to be an Apple apologist, but... by maztuhblastah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But why look at where responsibility lies when you can be trendy and bash Apple? After all, bashing big media is soooo 90's

  8. Trendwhores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's one thing to be a fanboi, the it's far lamer to be a trendwhore, and you, my friend, have bought into the current anti-apple trend hook, line and sinker.

    iTunes is the best music management software given away with any >1% market share digital audio software. Whine all you want, but that's a fact, even despite Apple's tendancy to release new versions with a few too many bugs.

    If she's got no friends and no car and lives in the sticks, then that woman is fucked. How did she get an iPod in this situation anyway? I've had friends using iPods with Windows 98 computers without a problem. A Google search will provide you with countless Linux solutions. And street vendor - are you having a fucking brain aneurism?

    This is pretty much one of the lowest, lamest, trendwhoriest posts I've ever seen on Slashdot, and that's saying a lot. I hope your dick grew because you followed the trend to diss Apple's products and suckle up to Microsoft's Zune because it isn't an iPod even though it's a rebadge of a shitty Toshiba MP3 player. However what more could you expect from a lowly repair tech, then again it isn't as if you understand real world economics. Get a real fucking job, learn that it makes sense to have an iPod repair division when >75% of the market is iPods, and if a company is making 8 MILLION iPods a quarter, they can have leading-edge failure rates and you'd still get thousands of devices with issues. Also portable devices tend to have user-failure issues such as being dropped, etc, hence they'll be brought in for repair more often than other devices.

  9. They're still the ones selling them by tentimestwenty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even if content providers are responsible for encoding the files (which I doubt) Apple should still be professional and ensure they meet a certain standard. It just makes them look bad.

  10. Re:Nothing new here by NormalVisual · · Score: 2, Informative

    CDs have a dynamic range of a little over 20 KHz, not 44. They have a sample rate of 44.1 KHz, but you can't physically have a frequency response that is more than half the sample rate.

    I'd also be interested to see some kind of documentation that reinforces your assertion that some early CDs were mastered from vinyl LPs. *Every* CD I own (and quite a few date back to the early days of CD) was mastered from the original studio tapes or first-gen copies of them, or from digitally remastered versions of those. Probably the most unique is the my copy of the soundtrack from "Star Trek II", where the original master was laid down on a very early digital recorder, and as a result it sounds like nasty, unwiped ass.

    --
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  11. What retailer on earth inspects every item? by SnowDog74 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Best Buy is one of the largest retailers in the world, yet one out of every five or ten DVD's I purchase from them is defective. I gurarantee you they do not inspect stock from the distributors and subdistributors. In this case, I inspect the discs at the purchasing counter. I have held up other customers in the process... one of them may be you.

    The Gap is one of the largest clothing retailers in the world, and one out of every three shirts I have purchased from them ends up discoloring badly in the wash in just a few months. Even though the clothing is their own brand, I guarantee you they do not inspect every shirt for quality. I no longer buy shirts from the Gap... Incidentally, I haven't had a problem with the Faconnable or Ralph Lauren polo shirts I paid $40-$70 for... you get what you pay for.

    Apple is one of the largest retailers of online music downloads with global load-balanced hosting operations worldwide, and every 50 to 75 downloads I come across a music track that is encoded from a defective source. I guarantee you Apple does not inspect the contents of every item published to its library. Incidentally I've had even fewer problems with purchased physical CD's, or better yet, DVD-Audio, but I find there's a level of quality I'll accept to take advantage of certain conveniences over going out to the store and paying $20-$25 for a DVD-Audio disc.

    Now, mind you I'm not defending Apple but I'm saying they're not unique at all in this regard. Obviously if there's a considerably high frequency of upsampled videos, then they've either got a problem they weren't aware of ... or this is simply something they accepted and are willing to deal with it as long as customers are. The solution is to complain to Apple in a constructive way so they have an idea of what customers really want.

    If the majority doesn't care then the majority doesn't care... and Apple will offer products as they see fit. I don't recall anywhere in Apple documentation that they ever stated that products in the 640x480 library were remastered from the source. So, all the energy expended whining here on slashdot about it should be spent sending complaints to Apple so that they get the picture and do what needs to be done to retain their bottom line. If a large enough percentage of consumers call them on this, they will change their practice and require all 640x480 content to be remastered... but don't expect them to be inspecting the contents of every file submitted to them, as the process to verify whether or not the content is upsampled cannot be derived from looking at the metadata... Each file would have to be inspected manually, at length. The end result is that you'd have to wait a hell of a lot longer for new releases and you'd be paying much more for them to make up the difference in labor expenditures. Then again, if you're willing to pay $10 a single and wait until three weeks after its initial release to obtain it, who am I to question?

    1. Re:What retailer on earth inspects every item? by bogie · · Score: 2, Funny

      To paraphrase you:

      "You can't expect companies to actually know what they are selling to consumers at all times."

      What the fuck kind of logic is that? You'd make a great spokesperson for the Spinach grower's association.

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
  12. And they wonder why torrents are popular. by Inoshiro · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At least I can burn stuff I torrented to a DVD for playback, should that be the thing I want to do.

    Why restrict your paying customers to less use than non-paying copyright infringers? Chewbacca is a Wookie! It does not make SENSE!

    --
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