Slashdot Mirror
LiveJournal Introduces "Sponsored Content"
piphil writes, "LiveJournal.com has just announced via their Business Discussions journal that they are introducing 'sponsored communities and features.' This has lead to an outcry from those who watch this community, who accuse LiveJournal of starting down the 'slippery slope' towards placing advertising on users' journals — some of which users already pay for the privilege of not having to see ads on the site. Read more below."
Interestingly, a few years ago — before LiveJournal's takeover by SixApart.com — the management released a "Social Contract" stating that LiveJournal would remain advertisement-free. Unfortunately it is impossible to link to this page at LiveJournal, as it has been silently deleted. However, we can read a copy of the document on the Internet Archive.
The user outcry has so far been limited to those who actively watch the lj_biz community. However, users are employing their own "viral marketing" techniques to spread the word across the user base. Many are worried about a MySpace-like descent into user-targeted advertising.
All this comes after the user base resisted introduction of advertising-supported user accounts, which swapped paying for extra features for seeing "targeted" banner adverts on the site.
These events raise prickly issue of user rights on such websites, and the validity of "user contracts" that can be changed at will by the provider with no subsequent compensation to affected users.
Interestingly, a few years ago — before LiveJournal's takeover by SixApart.com — the management released a "Social Contract" stating that LiveJournal would remain advertisement-free. Unfortunately it is impossible to link to this page at LiveJournal, as it has been silently deleted. However, we can read a copy of the document on the Internet Archive.
The user outcry has so far been limited to those who actively watch the lj_biz community. However, users are employing their own "viral marketing" techniques to spread the word across the user base. Many are worried about a MySpace-like descent into user-targeted advertising.
All this comes after the user base resisted introduction of advertising-supported user accounts, which swapped paying for extra features for seeing "targeted" banner adverts on the site.
These events raise prickly issue of user rights on such websites, and the validity of "user contracts" that can be changed at will by the provider with no subsequent compensation to affected users.
So has Slashdot, as evidenced by this "article."
At least LJ is admitting to it.
When the buyout happened, I remember reading the statement that the service wouldn't change much, that there wouldn't be ads on the site. I remember thinking to myself, "Bullshit. Why would sixapart buy it if they didn't want to wring as much money out of it as possible?" And sadly, "wringing money out of" usually involves "plastering ads all over."
"Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
Many web site owners already know that it's usually considered bad practice to add advertising to a well established site. People who blog about blogging usually tell people to put adsense up right away to a new site rather than add it later. Regular visitors seem to take the later addition of advertising as a bit of an insult. But they're more inclined to accept the site with its advertising features present from the start. Any significantly intrusive changes to a site will cause problems. Even more so if it's purely done for profit.
Developers: We can use your help.
oops, I wrote rdawson instead of kdawson. my mistake.
It's not like LiveJournal is strapping their users to chairs and tattooing advertisement on their foreheads. If you're that vehemently against this, you could
1) Use facebook to social network
2) Use blogger
3) User the facebook notes feature to aggregate your blog in (if blogger is supported... if it isn't you could use the facebook API)
Of course, facebook uses ads on their site...
Also, it's not a step towards ads embedded in your LJ. If you want all of the features, you either pony up some cash or get ads embedded (I don't think that the "sponsored" level gets as much as the paid level).
Who cares? Start a similar service. There's no patent preventing you from doing so to the best of my knowledge.
You know, they could just install Adblock and forget about it.
My, goodness, this is an outrage!
I will continue to...not...use...livejournal...
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
It's not like LiveJournal is strapping their users to chairs and tattooing advertisement on their foreheads.
What's your email address? We'd like to discuss this idea with you further.
Thanks.
- SixApart
Developers: We can use your help.
Yep, adverts are going to kill LJ; just look at Myspace, they've got ads everywhere and no-one uses that site at all... oh, wait..
As a user of Adblock Plus (mit Filterset.G!), I'm not really concerned about any advertisements that LJ puts out. As an occasional LJ user, I really have no problem going through my few posts, copying them to local storage and moving them to a new service in the event that it descends into the puddle of diarrhea that Myspace currently has a lock on.
Need I say more?
LiveJournal already has an option to put ads on your LJ, it's their Free+ Option that puts ads onto your journal and gives you more room and services (not as much as the paid accounts people but close) for your various thingies. If this is news than its very late.
If you checked the internet archive link for LJ's social contract... don't they have any responsibility for something like that? Quoted: "we promise to never offer advertising space in our service or on our pages." They may not have a legal responsibility, but what about a moral responsibility? I dream of a world where people are held accountable for the things they say.
Read the entry for yourself
m l
http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/236361.ht
In summary, they are adding a new account level for people who want to see ads to "buy" extra features.
Your friend's list won't have ads, and people who stay "free" or "paid" won't have ads on their own pages. If you go to someone's site who has enabled advertisements in exchange for extra features, "free" users will see ads, but "paid" users will not see ads anywhere.
LJ has historically been above the ghetto filth of xanga and now myspace... not for much longer...
I read the linked announcement thread and browsed through the replies. I don't think i've ever seen such a bunch of drama queens since last time I got lost in Blackpool with a cargo of wigs. It's like all their collective dogs got shot.'Corporate bullshit' was an oft used phrase. In which case what are they doing putting all their boring crap on some corporate site? Go get some parchment and head for the hills instead folks!
I'm a long-term user of Livejournal and the whole thing, on paper at least, reads pretty badly. Little company with nice OSS policies get bought by a bigger group, suddenly start introducing ads on the site (I don't care if they're only viewed by people who opt-in, they're still there) and introducing crap like corporate sponsoring, like pages for movies where you can watch trailers. I know sites like YouTube and Myspace do all the corporate tie-in crap, with smarter companies doing the whole viral marketing method to take advantage, but those sites are both new and had ads from the start. LJ is a little more pure, and since it's founded around people posting their lives and emotions and feelings, it cheapens the overall site experience when stuff like this is added in a way that's not the same as Myspace having ads. When half the members of your site are just random guys looking to score, it doesn't have the same impact when everyone is advertising.
I see two parts to the ads: sponsored communities and sponsored features.
The sponsored community part I don't see a problem with the ads in. Those would be communities created by a company, and the company gets to put their ads in the community. The company can already do that by an ad in a floating entry at the top of the community, all this is doing is making it official and giving LJ a cut. And it's their community in a sense, if they want ads in it it's them paying the bills. If users find the ads too obtrusive they'll avoid that community and that company and the company'll drop the community as a waste of money.
The sponsored features part I'll reserve judgement on for the moment. The statement seems to imply the ads will be on pages related to features not currently part of LJ's feature set and that'd be too expensive to offer at all without the ads. I want to see how they actually intend to implement it, because it could vary from quite acceptable to quite annoying depending on implementation.
Nowhere in LJ's announcement do I see any plans for ads popping up in ordinary user journals for paying subscribers.
ADVERTISEMENTS AND PROMOTIONS
LiveJournal.com has decided to remove all banner advertisements and promotions on LiveJournal.com journals. However, LiveJournal.com reserves the right to run advertisements and promotions on the LiveJournal.com service in the future. By using LiveJournal.com, you agree that LiveJournal.com has the right to run such advertisements and promotions with or without prior notice, and without recompense to you or any other user. The manner, mode and extent of advertising by LiveJournal.com on your journal are subject to change. You agree that LiveJournal.com shall not be responsible or liable for any loss or damage of any sort incurred as the result of any such dealings or as the result of the presence of such advertisers on the Service.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040614203940/www.live journal.com/legal/tos.html
Sitekeeper
I'll admit I'm irritated at this. Frankly, more irritated than the news itself deserves. The features themselves are (both) things that could be nice, but both have the potential to mostly just irritate me. And judging by lj's recent history, I judge the latter more likely than the former.
Ever since Six Apart bought lj, they've been adding features, and shoving them down the throats of the users without paying much attention to their complaints. Or any. There was the Sponsored+ account (which, incidentally, displays ads to anyone who visits who isn't a paid user, not just people who also have Sponsored+ accounts. This seems to be a fairly common misapprehension in the comments.) There was a new userinfo, that, to give them their due, they did scrap when out of the thousand+ complaints I saw, there were two people who liked it. Their standard implementation of new features nowadays seems to be to force people to opt out, which irritates me when I come to my lj and realize that I need to remove the new bar at the top of my layout/change the new bar on the comment page back to my old bar/whatever. And generally, their response to people saying "I don't like this!" is "But, but it's cool! Look at the shiny and profitable^W^W thing we made for you! Don't you like it? D: D:" And the tone of their response irritates me as much or more as their original announcement. Damnit, if you're going to start shoving new and exotic ways of you making a buck down my throat, at least have the decency not to act like you think you're doing me a favor.
I have a lot of friends on lj. I'm moderately active in several fandoms, and for years, lj's been the place for people writing fanfic to gather. And I'm seeing more people beginning to talk about moving to greatestjournal, or deadjournal, or journalfen, that a year ago would never have even thought about it. And that makes me sad, frankly. If fandom starts dispersing across all the lj clones because lj decides to turn itself into a myspace clone, I'm going to have to go to all the trouble of tracking people across multiple sites, rather than just the one today. And I don't want to have to do that.
The only time you see sponsorship information if you are a paid user is on the sponsored community/features pager - neither of which you have to use. There are always going to be problems with viral marketing - atleast here you will be able to see clearly which communities are sponsored and which are not. There will doubtless still be viral marketing with comapnies making communities that look like they are grassroots stuff but just like lonelygirl the lesson is learn to use discretion. Or don't join them at all.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
-Brad, creator of LJ, in what is now the top post on lj_biz, citing miscommunication between coding and advertising folks.
egypt urnash minimal art.
It's the doublespeak ("these aren't ads, even though you send email to lj_ads to buy them" and "these are not advertisements"). And, perhaps most importantly, the silent alteration of a user agreement. A company that makes a promise and then breaks it is not a trustworthy company.
We know, now, that they will change their minds and break promises if they feel the "need", defined very loosely. You cannot rely on a statement that LJ will do, or not do, a given thing; even if it's in writing, they can just delete the page later and say "we changed our minds". And they have done so, so this is no longer hypothetical.
Disappointing.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
"Breaking news! LiveJournal will show you ads if you want them to - and give you a few extra features in exchange. More on this and spontaneous combustion at 11." This was a big hubub in LJ lang months ago. The short and sweet of it is that unless you browse specifically to someone's journal who OPTED into ads - you won't be seeing them. It's that simple. People have to opt into the sponsored content. If you don't want them you won't be seeing them on your journal or friend's list - it's that simple. I really can't see what the big deal is.
See here: http://www.livejournal.com/legal/principles.bml
Notice how "Stay Advertisement Free... we promise to never offer advertising space in our service or on our pages..." changed to the much more formal and significantly less friendly "Avoid Spam... when you sign up for the Service, we understand that to mean you want to communicate with us and hear from us about our products and services..."
Slippery slope indeed. Livejournal, take a look back up that slope to where you started. It's a nice place up there.
This is the thing I don't understand here. The Slashdot write-up says:
A contract, fundamentally, is a two-sided deal. There must be something in for both parties, or there is no contract. Any promise made to you by a business that has nothing in it for them is not a promise you should ever trust.
I will never understand why so many people continue to believe that because a web site happens to offer a particular facility for free at some point, they are permanently entitled to have the same people provide the same service, at the same non-cost, in perpetuity. If the site is charging for the service, and then tries to change the deal, well that's a whole different game. But for the vast majority of these social networking sites, I'd guess that few or none of their users are paying customers.
Some of them also claim the rights to anything you post on their systems. Slashdot explicitly doesn't ("Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2006 OSTG.") which is why I don't mind posting somewhat in-depth stuff here. But posting a first take of a home-made movie that might be worth something on $VIDEO_SITE without reading the small print is just naive, as is posting your whole life story in any form where you can be identified on any public web site (whether or not that site actually makes your posts available to the entire public at that time), and so on.
Personally, I do also have a LJ account. I mostly use it as a way to view friends-locked posts by my real-life friends, and occasionally post throw-away comments that I don't care about. But after experiencing LJ's level of integrity (or complete lack thereof, as it happens) in an earlier incident before I had the account (someone was blatantly and hurtfully defaming me and LJ staff turned a blind eye even when the specific posts were identified) I would never trust them with any content of any value to me. If they went away tomorrow, I certainly wouldn't care, and if they started splashing ads all over their pages, I would either not care or not use them any more. If you can't walk away from any social networking site you're using for free just as fast, you're a fool.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I know Six Apart is a corporate entity, and I don't expect them to engage in any non-profit behavior, so I'm not too terribly distraught by these changes - I knew this kind of thing was coming after the sale. However the dedicated LJ users started when it was just a fun user-supported community - the free users were supported by the paid user class, and both benefitted. I think the paid users have lots of reason to complain, although if they had read the old TOS it mentioned that although the site was ad-free they reserved the right to introduce ads in the future, which is now. The central problem is that the community became an entirely different entity once it was sold, and people are having a hard time realizing the hard reality of that.
I think people are angry for the same reason that others are angry at the opening up of facebook. Exclusivity is an important part of any community, even if it's not based on much in particular. There is no reason to introduce this change except that Livejournal wants to both make its free users more valuable by tacking advertising dollars to their activity, and expand their user base to the mainstream social networking/blogger who already uses ad-supported services and doesn't mind them, just as Bradfitz mentions in HIS ljbiz posting discussing the introduction of the ad-supported class. This is a culture clash with established LJ users who joined as an ad-free alternative, and if successful will bring in a flood of people with fundementally different ideas about what an olnine community should be. Again, this is not bad behavior for a corportate entity, it's not personal, it's just business.
The kind of community that these people are looking for can only exist as a non-profit community supported model, which it was but is no longer. But as I mentioned before, that was dead once it was bought by Six Apart.
All that can be done in a situation like this is, if you care enough, really care enough, then you have to go out and look for communities, or make your own community, that is based on a user-supported model. It's just sad that in this day and age even the most well intentioned non-profit projects fold, because once thousands of people gather together, they are a prime target for advertisers, and as the workload of managing such a creation grows on a founder like brad Fitzpatrick, they can only hold out on offers of money and an easing of pressure for so long, unless they constrain the community size with something like the invitation feature, which they did years ago and was probably the best move in preserving the nature of the community.
I think it's really a go or stay situation. Maybe if enough people complain they might change the nature of the advertising, but it itcan't be reverted to its pre-corportate days by any amount of protest.
I'll demand a refund if they pull this crap. I'm not paying them to load my face with advertisements.
Brad posted an entry called "Sponsored Confusion" to explain things and unruffle feathers: http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/237699.htm l
Doesn't LJ's terms of use indicate you've already signed your copyright over to them?
At various times, I have had a free LJ account, a paid account, and now a Plus account. The paid one gave me no advantage over free, so no surprise I stopped paying for it.
I and most of my 15 or so LJ friends have moved to the "Plus" account with paid ads inserted into our journals. We like the enhanced features.
Most importantly, we have all gotten so used to the adsense model and similar advertising placement that we simply don't "see" the ads any more. Ignoring the LJ ads is no harder than ignoring any other ad on any other site.
We just don't see the ads.
Sig for hire.
So, wait, a free content-hosting company is starting to act like a free web host (1999)? The shock!
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
The author retains all patent, trademark, and copyright to all Content posted within available fields You license the right to publish your copyrighted material, but you don't sign the copyright over.