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E-Voting Raises New Questions In Brazil

Zaatxe writes, "Today is election day in Brazil. About 125 million people are expected to vote for president, governor, congressman (for both state and federal levels) and senator. The Washington Post has some interesting details about the electronic voting machines used in Brazil. From the article: 'Elections in Brazil used to be a monumental challenge, with millions of paper ballots to count by hand, many of them delivered by canoe and horseback from remote Amazon villages. Fraud was widespread, and it often took a week or more to determine the winners. Latin America's largest country eliminated many of these hassles by switching to electronic voting a decade ago, long before the United States and other countries... Some computer programmers who have closely examined Brazil's system say... confidence is misguided... Some Brazilians are lobbying... to switch from Windows CE to an open-source operating system for the voting machines, since Microsoft Corp., citing trade secrecy, won't allow independent audits to make sure malicious programmers haven't inserted commands to "flip" votes from one candidate to another.'" Read more below.

As a Brazilian voter, it was a shock for me to see that the voting machines here are made by Diebold. But what makes me confident in the system can also be found in the article: "Given the choice of picking a system where wholesale rigging is easy, versus one where it's impossible, why has Brazil gone with the system where it's easy? Brazil did build in some safeguards during its transition to electronic voting — protections that still don't exist in the US. While the code behind Microsoft's operating system remains secret, independent auditors must approve of the overlying voting software before it is inserted into the nation's 430,000 machines. The software remains open to inspections for three months before election day. And hours before the polls open, randomly chosen voting machines are tested 'to verify that the software inside does what it is supposed to do.'"

158 comments

  1. Simplicity is important ... by Gopal.V · · Score: 5, Insightful

    India has been using an EVM for a while, it has no operating system and is a bare-bones equivalent of a calculator with a line printer attached. Hook it up to a standard dot-matrix printer and get voting. It is probably as simple as a system can be.

    No government which outsources its technology to vote can remain soverign. Machiavelli didn't go on and on about mercenaries, for nothing. And all said & done, this doesn't actually mean an honest election brings up a good government - we're intelligent induviduals, who form dumb mobs, pulled & manipulated by politicians with electoral issues (which are non-issues in the real sense).

    1. Re:Simplicity is important ... by giorgiofr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Mobs are more than happy to let themselves be manipulated. Then they can give free reign to all that's socially unacceptable but that they really feel like doing, because the responsibility does not lie on them any more. See, they are being *pulled*. Recently, it looks like people are too tired to even switch their brain on, so they fall back into mob mode very quickly indeed.
      I've had enough with the "I'm being manipulaaaaaated!!11" excuse. Grow a fucking spine and admit that you do what *you* want to do.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    2. Re:Simplicity is important ... by Zaatxe · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If memory servers, the first voting machines here in Brazil were ordinary 386 PC's with no operating system, it booted with the voting software. I don't know for how long this model was used, anyway. Maybe it was just the first prototypes.

      --
      So say we all
    3. Re:Simplicity is important ... by Danse · · Score: 1
      I've had enough with the "I'm being manipulaaaaaated!!11" excuse. Grow a fucking spine and admit that you do what *you* want to do.

      The problem lies in the complexity of the issues that are being faced by policymakers. The reason we have a representative government is because nobody has enough time to get fully educated on all of the issues out there. So we have to designate someone who will make it their job to become educated on the issues, and then make the decision that serves their constituency the best. The problem is that we've allowed special interest lobbyists to become the only constituencies that really matter. Until such time as we take away the ability of our representatives to accept cash, gifts, or favors from anyone, we will not be honestly represented in our government. This isn't the marketplace folks. It shouldn't be a laissez-faire system. Money shouldn't be an issue. Right now it's extremely difficult to separate legal cash and gifts from illegal ones. Sure, sometimes people get caught, but it's very rare, and even when they do, it takes a massive and extremely expensive effort to get enough evidence to get a conviction. Make all gifts illegal, and it will become just very hard, rather than almost impossible, to ensure that our politicians are not being bought.

      The problem now is how to get the people running the system to make effective changes to it. That will require more concerted effort than the public could ever muster, I believe. It will require the sort of universal outrage that I'm not sure we're capable of anymore. With everything so polarized, we can't get more than half the public to back much of anything really. Each side points the finger at the other, and everything continues as usual. Only those in power benefit from this system.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    4. Re:Simplicity is important ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With everything so polarized, we can't get more than half the public to back much of anything really. Each side points the finger at the other, and everything continues as usual. Only those in power benefit from this system.

      You got it, buddy!! Our plan is woking flawlessly!

      Mua-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!!

      Now, since you are far too insightful, prepare for extermination!

      --Bill

    5. Re:Simplicity is important ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you.

  2. I voted today and... by julioody · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I find it's somewhat weird that one can't directly vote as "null" (this means, in other words, you're refraining yourself from participating). In order to vote as "null", you have to pick an invalid candidate number. It's been like this since the last election (or maybe before, but I can't recall). There's apparently not much press on the fact. So I guess most uninformed people (majority, as usual) would simply do otherwise just thinking "they've done something wrong". For some reason, it seems to be this is a form of pushing the nation into voting *for someone*. Call me paranoid, but I can't see a good reason for that. It reminds me of that quote: "if voting worked, it would be illegal".

    And yes, I'd rather not participate. There may not be any evidence of fraud in our elections, but I don't see the point in participating in the circus of lies that is politics in Brazil. If after all these years no one has realized politicians (right/left wing, doesn't matter) aren't out to help anyone there, they well deserve what's happening now.

    The soul of South America lies within Colombia, Venezuela, Chile, and Argentina.
    1. Re:I voted today and... by Zaatxe · · Score: 5, Informative

      I find it's somewhat weird that one can't directly vote as "null" (this means, in other words, you're refraining yourself from participating). In order to vote as "null", you have to pick an invalid candidate number. [...] For some reason, it seems to be this is a form of pushing the nation into voting *for someone*.

      1) A nullified vote means you made a mistake picking a candidate. This "mistake" can be delibered or not.
      2) If you are not willing to participate (considering that voting is mandatory in Brazil), the voting machine has a "blank" button.
      3) The voting machines have the "blank" button since the first prototype in 1996. Actually, the design of the voting machine hasn't changed much since then.
      4) The blank vote has always existed, since the paper ballot and it has the same effect of nullified votes. But the blank votes were the fraud source in paper ballots: some dishonest vote counters would fill the blank votes during counting. Believe me, that happened much often than you can imagine. With voting machines, that's impossible.

      --
      So say we all
    2. Re:I voted today and... by doti · · Score: 1

      Blank votes are very different from null votes.

      A blank vote means "I don't care". A null vote mean "I'm not satisfied with any of the candidates".

      Blank votes goes for the candidates with the most votes in the last turn. On the other hand, if in the last turn no candidate reaches 50%+1 votes (because of the null votes), the election is cancelled, and the current candidades may not run for the next one.

      --
      factor 966971: 966971
    3. Re:I voted today and... by Zaatxe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Blank votes goes for the candidates with the most votes in the last turn. On the other hand, if in the last turn no candidate reaches 50%+1 votes (because of the null votes), the election is cancelled, and the current candidades may not run for the next one.

      My dear heavens! Where did you take this idea from? The election could be cancelled if, and only if, more than 50% of total votes were null. "Could be cancelled", it's not for sure. It's up to the Supreme Electoral Court to decide what happens if more than 50% of the votes are null. (I'm not linking the official page on this information because it's in portuguese and wouldn't be fair for most slashdotters.)

      --
      So say we all
    4. Re:I voted today and... by Allah+Lah+Ow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Brazil is just as good as your vote, dude. And, btw, the reason you have to pick an invalid candidate number is to emulate the paper ballots where anything but what you're supposed to write there nullify the vote. It's just sad to see how many people give up their sacred right of choosing their leaders blaming the status quo. You're not a paranoid, you're just apathic. PS: The last line doesn't make any sense.

    5. Re:I voted today and... by Rato+Ruter · · Score: 1

      Thats BS... Blank votes are counted as valid votes, since they dont count to anyone its as if, statistically I mean, they were split proportionally among all the candidates. On the other hand, null votes are not valid and are excluded from the statistics to determine the winner candidate.

    6. Re:I voted today and... by CreatureComfort · · Score: 1


      But what do you do when voting is mandatory, and everyone who actually makes it to the ballot turns your stomach?

      The trite answers of 'run for office yourself' or 'get active trying to get someone you want elected' don't cut it. I make a very good living doing a job I love. I don't want to have to give that up for a job in politics, which doesn't pay much more than what I make anyway, and which I would hate. I have supported candidates, both through donations and 'walking the neighborhood', but either they don't even make the ballot, or get so few votes in the general election it is heartbreaking. The only benefit to having voted libertarian in the last presidential election is that so few of us voted that way that even if all of us had voted democrat, it wouldn't have changed the outcome.

      Maybe you are right, maybe I'm apathetic for not caring enough to sacrifice more of my life in trying to get people I approve of elected. But at the same time, I deeply resent having to mess up my life, just to keep from having my life messed up. It's like the whole give up all your freedoms to keep your freedom, fight terrorism mantra. It's turned into a lose-lose situation.

      * We fight the endless war on terror, so that we have peace at home...(War is Peace)
      * You don't need to speak out, we have it taken care of. Trust our news, anyone saying something else is a traitor. You don't need guns to protect yourself, that's what the police are for. (Freedom is Slavery)
      *Now go take your ritalin, valium, and viagra and everything will be fine.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    7. Re:I voted today and... by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      that's an urban legend. i actually read the electoral law. in what concerns the vote counting, nulls and blanks are exactly the same thing. they're called "invalid votes".

      the "blank" button and the possibility of voting null by choosing an invalid number exists for a psychological reason only. not everyone is confortable with the idea of voting null, so they're given the option of the blank vote.

      in what concerns the counting, only the valid votes are considered.

      other urban legend says that if more than half of the votes are null, the election is canceled and another one is made. this is NOT true. the election is repeated ONLY if more that half of the vote are declared null by the electoral court due to fraud. in other words, the election is canceled if the votes are nullified by the justice.

      blank votes and null votes are simply excluded from the count. this is stated in arcticle 2nd of law 9.507 from september 30 1997.

      more information here.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    8. Re:I voted today and... by Rivabem · · Score: 2, Informative

      Blank votes are very different from null votes.

      A blank vote means "I don't care". A null vote mean "I'm not satisfied with any of the candidates".

      Blank votes goes for the candidates with the most votes in the last turn. On the other hand, if in the last turn no candidate reaches 50%+1 votes (because of the null votes), the election is cancelled, and the current candidades may not run for the next one.


      No, null means "I'm so dumb I can't use a keyboard properly"

      The blanks votes goes for no one! It was true in the military times (1964-85) but since them is no more. They simple doesn't count in the end, just like the null votes.

      And the null issue is not for votes nulled by voters, but by electoral justice, for instance, a candidate had 51% of the total votes, and for some reason, his candidacy is impugnated (because of a electoral crime, for instance).
    9. Re:I voted today and... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My professor of the college is the head of the IT sector the Superior Electoral Court of my State and he knows the system of the voting machines well. According to him, all the Blank votes will be given to the candidate (or political party) that has more votes.

      So there is a great difference between voting Blank and "null". This is why our friend there said that there was little to no comments about the difference between the Blank and "null" votes. Just making things clear :)

  3. Why Does Diebold Oppose Printers? by logicnazi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean on the surface it would seem that this is a perfect opportunity for them to sell more hardware and make more money.

    The only explanation I can think of is that they are afraid their buggy voting machines will give different counts than the paper ballots. Despite all the worries and fuck ups with Diebold machines people won't really believe that the machines are problematic until they can see they screwed up in a real life situation. Sure there were a couple incidents where a machine started counting backward or people fucked up but this doesn't necessarily seem any more serious than the flaws in paper voting and after all these problems were caught.

    Yes if problems are caught there are probably others that aren't but it doesn't have the same PR effect.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    1. Re:Why Does Diebold Oppose Printers? by bremstrong · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For something as important as voting, it sure seems like the US as a country could afford printers.

      Anything to make it more likely that every vote is accurately tallied sounds like a worthwhile use of taxpayer dollars.

      Electronic voting machines that can't be audited--why again?

    2. Re:Why Does Diebold Oppose Printers? by expressovi · · Score: 1

      My county just recieved brand new electronice voting machines from Deibold. Our county required that these machines leave a paper tail. Having seen one demonstrated to me about 3 weeks ago I can confirm that they do have machines with a small printer of some sort attatched to the right side of the machine.

      --
      i agree
    3. Re:Why Does Diebold Oppose Printers? by Angry+Black+Man · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are completely right about the fact that both paper ballots and comptuer ballots have some margin of error, and as an engineer i have to wonder why this margin of error is not known.

      Any approximation is useless without knowing the limits to which it applies. What needs to happen is a study needs to be done to find the percent error in the voting process (paper or electronic), and if the final votes are within this percent something needs to happen.

      If Bush wins an election by 1.0% of the population, while the margin of error on the voting process is +/-3.0%, well then did he really win the election?? Any counting process is useless without knowing error margins, voting included. What if the margin of error is +/- 10%?? This needs to be figured out.

      --
      the byproduct of years of oppression by the white man
    4. Re:Why Does Diebold Oppose Printers? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      IIRC, Diebold has had the printer-models since the begining. It's been the choice of the counties buying them to go with the printerless models to save money.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  4. MS Ain't So Bad Here by logicnazi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Frankly I think the concern about using an MS OS rather than an open source OS is misplaced. In fact despite my general dislike for MS I have to say that in this situation MS is probably a better choice than a Linux based OS.

    Sure people are going to claim the 'lots of eyeballs' effect makes linux more secure. However, there are major sections of the code that are deep vodoo and very very few people understand. An attacker would of course choose to put his code in one of these sections and if you are really running this code atop a full blown OS and you know (because the government has demanded it be published) the software that will run on top of if there are probably tons and tons of innocent looking ways to screw with the results.

    I don't know if this would really work but one might imagine a situation where the ballot will be divided into two pages. Likely whether or not the vote was recorded and sent to permanent memory before the page is flipped or after will have some statistical difference in memory reservations or paging or some subsystem like this. One could code a race condition that scrambles the cast vote which while rare is slightly more statistically likely to happen in these situations than the other ones. Hell in an election often the young have different voting patterns than the old so you could just have some statistical relation to the speed at which options are picked.

    The point is the bad guy is likely to have lots of resources and be able to concentrate them in one very small area of the code in a way that looks valid or if discovered innocent. The eye balls need to look over all the code. Yet we know from the number of bugs found in the linux kernel that many bugs do make it past without even being engineered to like innocous.

    While the MS kernel is likely to be more buggy it is much harder to contribute a patch to the MS kernel making it more difficult for a bad guy to slip the code into the kernel in the first place. So while it would be nice if the kernel was visible to everyone I think not accepting third party patches is a more important security feature than being open source for a situation like this. Getting someone hired as part of MS's OS team or corrupting one of them is way harder than getting a patch acceted to the linux kernel that delibrately contains a very subtle area.

    Of course what they really should be doing is not using anything complicated like a real OS anyway and instead an EVM.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    1. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by logicnazi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      More preciscely unless you plan to eliminate all errors that could affect the kernel running in the voting machine (impossible for either linux or windows kernel) the battle is between the eyeballs trying to find bugs that might affect voting and the bad guys trying to make bugs that affect voting.

      In an election situation there are just TONS of correlations between voting patterns and the state of the voting machine (how quickly people select options, how busy the machine is, how warm the machine is etc.. etc..). The bad guys just need to pick one correlation to use in their attack. The eyeballs need to look for every exploitable correlation making their job very very hard.

      This asymetry means that it is more efficent to raise the barrier to inserting the bug in the first place by using code that doesn't accept third party patches than to try to find the bugs once they are in there.

      Of course the right kind of OSS kernel would be even better, e.g., minix (I don't think tannenbaum accepts 3rd party patches) or some other closed development community but between linux and windows here windows wins for all the reasons that make it worse other places.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    2. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by bky1701 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "While the MS kernel is likely to be more buggy it is much harder to contribute a patch to the MS kernel making it more difficult for a bad guy to slip the code into the kernel in the first place." You seem to forget how easy it is to hex-edit and such. Pirates hack copy-protection far more sealed up then MS software, and all they are is a set of random people trying to give out free warez. A true conspiracy to hack the vote of a whole country is NOT going to be stopped by hex-editing vs. C editing, and while dark spots in the Linux kernel maybe hard to pick apart, a compiled window kernels is near imposable. So would Linux be better? It probably doesn't matter - if it's going to be hacked, it's going to be hacked.

    3. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      You seriously want to attach something a erroneous as microsoft's warranty to something as important as an election. Manual counting and voting requires fraud on a massive scale, electronic voting , only requires one bug, and the election results are what ever you want them to be. No fraud with electronic voting, get serious, it is just so much easier to hide and produce what ever results you want. Voting, it's about people electing people, why would you exclude people from any part of the process.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    4. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by suffe · · Score: 1

      Dear company executive, if you by accident would make sure I win the election next yet then there is no end to what we can do together.

      Yours truly,
      GWB
      ------

      That wasn't very hard or costly.

      --

      Karma: 2.71828182846 (Mostly due to small, fun pills)
    5. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by orasio · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That doesn't make sense to me.
      You are saying that in order to hack the linux kernel, you would need to make a patch to the mainstream kernel, and get it accepted. Someone will review your code, and you need to disguise it as a fix for something. For this step alone, that involves deceiving kernel hackers, you need the knowledge of a top level kernel hacker, and there are few of them, and _some_ of them can't be easily bought for any reasonable amount of money, because they are well known people, and have a reputation to protect.
      Then you need to make sure that the makers of the machines use a recent enough version of Linux. So you need to send the patch at least one year, and more realistically, a couple of years in advance.
      After that, you need to pray that, in the meantime, your code doesn't break anything for any of its millions of users. And some of those millions are actually watching the changelog, and could find some flaw in your patch by chance.

      With any closed kernel, there is not known worldwide development process, so it _could_ be much easier to instill a bad patch, you maybe just need to buy one developer for a ridiculous amount of money, and that would be it. Of course, they could have better safeguards, but we don't know anything about that, so we can safely assume the worst.

      Aside from that, I think these ways of skeweing the elections are overkill. You can always buy your votes on-site, and find a way to change the software of the voting machines on delivery, or maybe changing the whole voting machine before it goes to its place. You can buy some auditors, or people at Diebold. That would be much easier, safer and cheaper than changing the OS kernel.

    6. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't know if this would really work but one might imagine a situation where the ballot will be divided into two pages. Likely whether or not the vote was recorded and sent to permanent memory before the page is flipped or after will have some statistical difference in memory reservations or paging or some subsystem like this. One could code a race condition that scrambles the cast vote which while rare is slightly more statistically likely to happen in these situations than the other ones. Hell in an election often the young have different voting patterns than the old so you could just have some statistical relation to the speed at which options are picked.


      No, that sort of thing belongs in userspace, not in the kernel.
    7. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by teslar · · Score: 1
      After that, you need to pray that, in the meantime, your code doesn't break anything for any of its millions of users

      Never mind that, you'd also need to pray that you correctly guessed the candidates and the way people will actually enter their vote all those years before the election...
    8. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Well, you don't need source code to install malware on a system. Think about all the zillions of Windoze viruses out there. Therefore, *not* having the source doesn't make you any more secure. However, having the source code, does make it easier to spot trouble and fix it.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    9. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by James+McGuigan · · Score: 1

      One of the reasons the pen and paper anonymous ballet system has lasted so long is that its a tried and tested system. People trust it, its very simple, and is fairly difficult to subvert/corrupt.

      Look at NASA, when they send up a space probe, the computer on board are not the latest and greatest, but more likely 486's. This is because you are are a tried and tested system and any bugs or issues are very likely to be already known.

      In a voting, just as in space flight, reliability is more important than efficency. Simple systems tend to be more reliable (less points of failure). Electronic voting is an attempt to improve the efficency of the voting process (quicker and less costly), but its no good optimizing a function if it ends up being more buggy.

    10. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by baboonlogic · · Score: 1
      Frankly I think the concern about using an MS OS rather than an open source OS is misplaced. In fact despite my general dislike for MS I have to say that in this situation MS is probably a better choice than a Linux based OS.

      The concern here is that all the voting machine software should be available for audit. Thus a MS based solution is not feasible.
    11. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by houghi · · Score: 1
      Sure people are going to claim the 'lots of eyeballs' effect makes linux more secure. However, there are major sections of the code that are deep vodoo and very very few people understand.


      Even less people understand the voodoo of the MS kernel and there is no way to examine the kernel later. Say 10 people do understand the kernel voodo and are interested and able to analyze it, that would be enough to detect if somebody changed the kernel or not or did something else with it.

      With MS if 10 people can understand it, the likelyhood of them actally telling on their comapny is much slimmer and much harder to proove. This would be no problem if the comapny is completely honest and has nothing to gain or loose with the outcome.

      Now imagine a company that is in a legal battle against several states for e.g. abuse of their monopoly. They might be interested in outcome one way or another. Or if you have a CEO who is in favour of one company over an other. He might be intersted in favouring one or the other.

      Both can do this for anyone and they can do it all on their own, completely independent from whatever or whomever they favour and perhaps even against the will of the person they favour.

      I will put it in another way. 10 people put 10USD in a pot. I will put 10 in as well. I will make the papers who go into the hat. Any of the ten people will pull out one paper. I will immediatly brurn the 9 other papers the moment someone pulles out a paper, so I can't switch them later.

      Will you trust me in this closed source program? Won't you think it was strange that I won 27 times in a row? Can you detect what I did? Sure you can. Can you PROOVE it?

      That is what Diebold could be doing. That is what Microsoft could be doing and we have no way of knowing.

      The alternative of my 'election' is that the 10 people look how I write the papers, look how I fold them and look how put them in a hat. That is open source.
      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    12. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by Frederico+Camara · · Score: 1

      And wouldn't it be strange if the same politicians keeps winning the election without even being candidate.

    13. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by logicnazi · · Score: 1

      No the point being is the race condition would be with the low level file system access and paging systems. You would profile the software and make sure this was more likely to happen when the user had moved on to the second page then when they hadn't.

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    14. Re:MS Ain't So Bad Here by olman · · Score: 1

      Of course what they really should be doing is not using anything complicated like a real OS anyway and instead an EVM.

      Sanity prevails at last.

      As an PCB designer, it seems to me to be insane to use anything remotely as complicated as Linux or Windows CE here. It's a machine designed to do one thing and one thing only, it's not supposed to run your bloody torrent client in the background.

      Kill the OS, put in some kind of bare-bones embedded OS, which has kernel memory footprint like 1kB if even that and write the damn application in assembler for another 0.5kB code.

      Or, hell, nuke even the embedded OS and code the entire voting app in ASM from system boot code up. Sure it's bit 1980, but this is a VOTING MACHINE for god's sake.

  5. I dont understand... by TechnoBunny · · Score: 1

    Why do they need access to the OS code to determine whether the voting applications are fair? Surely some auditors could be given access to the relevant codebases (presumably under an NDA) to ensure that the code accurately records votes, and that once those votes are recorded they cannot be altered?

    1. Re:I dont understand... by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      All you need is a printed paper trail. Then the system can be subjected to random inspections: Count the paper, look at the electronic tally and compare, to make sure it is within a margin of hand counting error. That is why Diebold *doesn't* want paper trails. They are afraid that it will show just how bad and unreliable their systems are.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:I dont understand... by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      I do not understand your post. How is "need access to the OS code" different from "given access to the relevant codebases" ?

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
  6. diebold only _MAKES_ them but don't have the IP by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    the development of the system, and all the intelectual property associated, belong to the electoral justice.

    when the system was first develop and used in capitol cities in the 90's, procomp (one of the manufacturers hired to develop the system) was not a diebold subsidiary yet. the other two were Itautec (subsidiary of the 2nd largest private bank of brasil) and Unisys.

    all the intelectual property developed by the 3 companies was transfered to the union.

    since the IP belongs to the government, they can choose to hire other comapnies to manufacture the units in the future if they son choose.

    --
    What ? Me, worry ?
  7. How hard can voting machine software be? by oliverthered · · Score: 1

    Randomize the buttons so that the order of candidates changes every time, store the order in a table.
    When a button is pressed run a lookup on the table and increment to count for that candidate.
    Send some text to a line printer with details of the vote.
    Repeat untill end of election.
    Have a button inside that dumps the vote count out to the line printer.

    That's going to be a few hundred lines of code at worst, surley it doesn't take that long to pick up any bugs.

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    1. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by mrogers · · Score: 2, Funny
      That's going to be a few hundred lines of code at worst, surley it doesn't take that long to pick up any bugs.

      Actually it's only one line - but it's a line of Perl.

    2. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by Zaatxe · · Score: 2, Informative

      Randomize the buttons so that the order of candidates changes every time, store the order in a table.

      Forgive me, but that sounds like a VB programmer idea. Anyway, Sao Paulo state had about 1000 candidates for congressman. Are you sure putting them in the screen in with no preditable order would help anyway? It would only happen to make large lines in the voting precintes!
      In Brazil every party has a 2-digit number that identifies it. For executive candidates (president, governor and mayor) they use the party number. Senators use 3 digit numbers, federal congressmen use 4 digit numbers, city counselours and state congressmen 5 digits, being the first 2 from their parties.
      When you enter the numbers, the voting machine shows their name, party and a picture, because Brazil still have lots of illiterate people. Besides the voting machine's buttons are large and have the numbers in Braille for the blind, along with a audible feedback.

      Touch screen with the name of the candidates? Bah! This is unnecessary excess of technology and source of problems.

      --
      So say we all
    3. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by SocratesJedi · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't this expose the voting pattern of individual citizens? If it's being printed out on a printer in a sequential order then all it's going to take is for one poll worker to keep highly detailed records about the order in which machines were used by individuals.

    4. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, see...

      - Randomizing the buttons is a shit idea. Adding confusion to an election is NO GOOD (@see 1st Bush USA election).
      - Printing the vote to a paper and giving it to the people adds problems like:
          - faked paper can be used to disturb election (ok, could be detected just like faked money, but it CAN be used to disturb anyway)
          - anyone (and groups of people) can simply dispose their papers, then claim for election fraud
      - Printing the vote to a paper and collecting it in the machine, it can be (un)trusted just like the rest of the system
      - etc.

      "Every complex problem has a simple, beautiful, and wrong solution." -- someone else

    5. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by oliverthered · · Score: 1

      Ok, store the votes in batches on 100 and print them out in a random order.

      That's still only a few more lines of code.

      Assuming that the random number ganerator is a stock one (line meisner twister) it's not going to take that long for a few experts to validate that the code has no bugs or deliberat vote squeing with 100% accuracy.

      You could even stick it all on a stock microcontroler so you don't have an operating system confusing things.

      --
      thank God the internet isn't a human right.
    6. Re:How hard can voting machine software be? by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      print the vote, cut it out, drop it on a bag.

      that won't give a lot of randomness, but would certainly make it harder to find voting patterns.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
  8. Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Stormwatch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    No candidate reached 50%+1 votes, so we will have a 2nd round with the two leading candidates.

    Yet, the leading candidate is the current president, whose government was swamped by all sorts of scandals -- the most recent being that members of his campaign's staff were arrested while trying to buy a (probably forged) dossier against the main opposing party's candidates.

    In any decent country, such a man would not have reached the end of his term. Compared to Lula, Nixon was a saint! But here, reached the point where tons of people seem to believe honesty is not relevant to a politician. Or maybe they don't bother looking for it because they believe it's impossible to find...

    1. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by ParnBR · · Score: 1

      People do mind about honesty, but they're rather vote for someone who "steals, but does" like Maluf than a seemingly good-intended less-known politician. And people can't remember stuff for much longer than a goldfish. I live in Brasília and I'm completely ashamed to know that people here elected someone like Arruda as a Governor. He violated the secrecy of the electronic voting panel, a few years ago, and lied about not being responsible for it. When undeniable evidence was found later, he admitted having done it. He was likely to be prosecuted (and bound to be punished), but resigned and charges against hill were dropped. Ex-president Fernando Collor de Mello was elected senator for Alagoas. Paulo Maluf was elected congressman for São Paulo.

      The Carta Capital weekly magazine made some researches about scandals in the last three governments: Lula's, Collor's and Fernando Henrique Cardoso's. Unlike most people seem to believe now, the scandals in the other two governments involved much bigger sums of money. The difference is that Fernando Henrique's was much quicker to react and cover the scandals up, and we all know how Collor ended up. Let us not forget that Marcos Valério worked for FHC people too, that the ambulances scandal began while José Serra (elected Governor of São Paulo) was Minister of Health for FHC, and that Roberto Jefferson, who started the first big scandal of Lula's government, was the biggest defender of Collor's misdoings.

      This is a very dark time for Brazil. I'm not happy with Lula's government, but I voted for him since I can't trust Alckmin (he has a very Maluf-like way of doing politics), neither Heloísa Helena (she seemed to be angry all the time, could never give a good answer when asked HOW she intended to do the things she promised, and surprisingly has some conservative support), neither Cristovam (I know him, he was principal of University of Brasília and Governor here for four years) would make a better government. It's so difficult to advance that we have to make it by small steps. I believe Lula's government is one of those small steps. Probably you think otherwise, but I respect your opinion. Let us hope that the next government be better than the last ones.

      Cheers!

      --
      My neighbor's .sig is better than mine.
    2. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by praedictus · · Score: 1

      Tell me about it, both Jader Barbalho and Collor got elected yesterday. I get the impression a lot of people vote based on publicity, not on ethics. That and a lot of free cestas basicas discretely passed. It's similar to the pork barrel politics in the US. Roubo, mais faz - "He's a crook, but he gets stuff done"

      --
      Watashi wa chikyubutsurigakusha desu.
    3. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      Alckmin is definitely not Maluf-like.

      His main proposal is to reduce taxes, which may be the best thing a politician can do (and Brazil DESPERATELY needs); he intends to stimulate trading with rich countries, rather than third-world ones like Lula did; as governor of São Paulo, he reduced the state's payroll; and above all, as far as I know, he is a honest man.

      About Heloísa Helena, let me tell you something. One of PSOL's founding members is a runaway italian convict named Achille Lollo. In 1973, he and two others set fire to the house of a political enemy, killing two children. Of course, Heloísa Helena doesn't care. For "the cause" (socialism), anything goes.

      Lula is indeed a step forward, but toward the abyss! Geraldo Alckmin would be instead a major change of direction.

    4. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      The correct portuguese is "rouba mas faz" ("robs but does"). Actually, the equivalent to the pork barrel are the "emendas do orçamento" ("ammendments to the budget"). The "rouba mas faz" thing is the blatantly illegal part, bribes and backstage dealings.

    5. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by ParnBR · · Score: 1

      I admit he's not *exactly* Maluf-like. Maluf is a traditional conservative politician, of course. But when he talks about his achievements as governor of São Paulo, his speech does sound pretty much like Maluf's, especially when talking about the stuff he built. Please forgive me if I don't quote him, but I wasn't very interested about how many hospitals he built and such. It did remind me, though, when Maluf was a presidential candidate and talked about the same subjects, in 1989.

      I thank you for highlighting those Alckmin's proposals. Such proposals are clearly a neoliberal agenda, and I don't intend to say it as a criticism. I don't agree with those proposals, and I believe this is more of a matter of personal belief. Just to make clear, my political inclinations are completely opposite. But I think this doesn't prevent us from having a good talk. :) I really hope he is a honest man. I know people who know Lula personally and would say the same. Too bad we can't really know for sure. But even if Alckmin is more honest than Maluf (and I admit this is very likely), I still can't trust him, because I don't agree with his proposals and don't see them as the best for Brazil.

      Heloísa Helena is another story. I used to sympathize with her, but when I noticed she waved some conservative banners despite her socialist upbringing, I grew very suspicious of her and her incoherences. I like the socialist ideology, but I don't like a lot of stuff some self-called socialists did in the past. For true ethical socialists (not that I'm one, mind you), fighting for the cause isn't anything-goes. I can't vote for PSol.

      At least we agree on this: Geraldo Alckmin would be a major change of direction, but I think it would be for the worst! :P I don't expect him to do any different from Fernando Henrique Cardoso, and I don't think FHC's government was good, either. But if he is elected, I sincerely hope I'm wrong, for the good of Brazil. :)

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and please forgive me for my poor English skills. If you misunderstand me, it's my fault for being unable to perfectly express myself. I hope this doesn't get in the way of a respectful understanding (even if we disagree). :)

      Best regards

      --
      My neighbor's .sig is better than mine.
    6. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ugh. Reducing taxes isn't always a good thing. When we're talking about Brazil, where there are so many government-owned programs people depend on (like health care), the money has to come from somewhere. Yes, public health care there sucks (at least it sucked when I was there), but reducing their funds isn't a step towards fixing the problem. By the same token, throwing more money at the problem also isn't the answer. Essentially, what I'm saying is that although reducing taxes may be a good thing, I hope you're considering his entire plan before voting, instead of having the short-sighted reaction so many people have ("hell yes, my paycheck after taxes will be bigger!!!!!"). How exactly is he changing the budget to accomodate for the lower funds? What programs does he intend to cut?

      Next, stimulating trading with "rich" countries instead of the "third-world ones" is the worst thing you can do. The rich countries have the upper hand and tend to pressure other countries into changing their laws to suit them. If they refuse, the trade they've come to depend upon will suffer.

    7. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      tons of people seem to believe honesty is not relevant to a politician
      You, sir, win the prize.
    8. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compared to Lula, Nixon was a saint!

      Maybe some of us are underwhelmed by the attempt to make the actions of an obviously rogue wing of the president's party reflect on the president. Maybe some of us did consider the fact that despite all of the media crackdown on the president, nobody could show even the slightest evidence of his involvement or that anything was to his personal gain.

      Maybe some of us actually noticed that the most-current-scandal was set up by the oppositionist party as a violation of due process and probably by bribing federal police agents.

      Maybe some of us would rather vote for Lula, even under suspicion, than for some other party we are sure is corrupt.

      Maybe it's just that his government is good in ways that were never seen before, and are much needed.

    9. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Lula is clean, his party and government has done lots of bad stuff, but no evidence points in HIS direction.

    10. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I think Lula is clean, his party and government has done lots of bad stuff, but no evidence points in HIS direction.
      Pfff yea right. He's completely surrounded with crooks. No one can choose a crew THAT badly! Except that, in that party, that's pretty much the only kind of people you'll get... other than a few innocent fools like Eduardo Suplicy, maybe.
    11. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

      Lula also talked about lowering interest, and it was just a lie. Everyone likes to talk about reducing taxes to gain votes. But I'm not going to bite it. I will vote blank again. At least, it will not be with my vote and aproval that they will rob me. I'm not going to take part in this.

    12. Re:Fraud is the lesser of Brazil's problems... by bradasch · · Score: 1

      "His main proposal is to reduce taxes, which may be the best thing a politician can do"...

      And you believe him because... what exactly?

      His party, his fellows and everyone surrounding him are the main cause we have so many taxes in Brazil. Do you seriously believe they "regret" doing that? Why do you believe that?

      And, about corruption: there are several, and I mean lots of corruption going on Alckmin's party. Why do you choose to criticize Lula for corruption and not Alckmin? If you choose to close your eyes to all the scandals that happened during FHC's mandate, why not turn a blind eye to Lula's mandate?

      This is the main problem of Brazil. You chose Alckmin out of your political preference (which I respect), and try to justify it criticizing Lula. We could spend a whole day exposing cases and scandals, and you still would choose Alckmin over Lula, no matter what was said about them. If Alckmin gets elected, you still would close your eyes to any scandals you could hear about him - while criticizing leftists and Lula.

      Try spending sometime researching and trying to understand the *good* things that were done in both mandates (Lula and FHC). Decide upon good things, not on what you consider wrong.

  9. It was better before by protomala · · Score: 1

    The machine is in constant evolution, but some of them aren't very good, and I belive the machine is loosing it's safety guards. The original machine had a system read-only for the operating system, now it's stored on a SD card, still it's locked with a seal, and when election os over (by the way the election was yesterday and all results are already out) all machines are verified to see if there wasn't any violations.
    It's possible yes, to compromise a voting machine, but doing the same for a dozen of them is really hard. The transmassion system is still hacker-proof, mostly because Brazil is very advanced at digical certification and have a good understanding of security in this area. This is the weak link on the chain, but still, after voting the regional and national data are matched often, so if you hack a transmission, it simply will appear, as will exist a difference in numbers.
    All in all the system works pretty well, the operating system on the machine really dosen't matter much (even the I like it to be linux instead of winCE), and most contries around here in south america are already adopting it, I hope others with fraud problems (did I'd said USA?) will turn to at least learn some lessons Brazil already know.

    1. Re:It was better before by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      It's possible yes, to compromise a voting machine, but doing the same for a dozen of them is really hard.

      Just to provide some extra information, they put one voting machine for every 450 voters in average. This would make a large scale fraud much harder if it's not an inside job. And inside fraud would be even harder, since the parties can inspect the software, if I'm not mistaken.
      Personally, I don't believe that has ever happened, because the last party in power lost the elections and this can also happen this year.

      --
      So say we all
  10. Probably simplistic but MS=USA=bad? by fantomas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if some of the concern by the critics is that the software running the voting machines is opaque, and owned by a US company. US involvement in South/Latin America is quite a politically sensitive issue and the US has historically used covert and military actions to influence politics in the region. So I'm not suprised there are concerns - even if misplaced - over the MS software.

    Imagine if there was a borderline vote in some US states and the voting machines were running a closed software package from a country that had potential influence and something to lose or gain over who got elected.

    I can imagine concerns might be raised in the voting areas by some people.

    1. Re:Probably simplistic but MS=USA=bad? by jav27 · · Score: 1

      for that reason, Smarmatic, the company that sells the electronic-fraud voting machines used by Hugo Chavez has its ownership very hidden from the public. Some journalists have tried hard to find who owns Smarmatic and it's been impossible, since they are shielded behind a web of trustees and corporations to avoid scrutiny.

    2. Re:Probably simplistic but MS=USA=bad? by Eternauta3k · · Score: 1

      Most of latin america uses windows.

      --
      Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
  11. Good and secure machines by FFFFHALTFFFF · · Score: 3, Informative

    Well, I worked with that machines and I can say they are secure. They dont have any output with external world, like ethernet and others kinds of communication. The votes are stored in floppy disks, with a big seal. If the seal is broken, the votes cant be official. But the seal is big and hard to damage. I believe today we have a great vote system, because we have the results in 13 hours after the election.

  12. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by alexgieg · · Score: 1

    Please note that not only left-wingers are against intellectual property. A lot of libertarians and classic-liberal conservatives also oppose it on the grounds that IP violates private property. The reasonig is basically as follow:

    "Thy should a 3rd party tell me how I should use the xerox machine I own, the paper I own, the powder I own, and the book I own, in the way I choose to? Why should a 3rd party forbid me to resell whatever I made with property I possessed? After all, who own these things? Me, or that shadowy 3rd party, that exists as such only because the government created and sustains pro-monopolistic, anti-private-property laws?"

    The only way a right-winger can defend IP is by giving up on the private property principle and adopting utilitarianism. This is what, for example, the Ayn Rand Objectivists do. Which is the same as saying:

    "Yeah, we know IP is a violation of privarte property, that it's something that can only exist because it's state-sponsored, and that this sponsorship also goes agains the doctrine of minimal government, and also that this makes us inconsistent, but IP is usefull anyway due to 'x' and 'y' and 'z', so we're for it."

    Needless to say, I'm a conservative, I sympatize with libertarianism in many aspects, and I'm against IP.

    --
    Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  13. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by Zaatxe · · Score: 5, Informative

    I might be worried that some left-wing nutjob in Brazil would nationalize that source code and fork in a "fuck the yankee imperialist capitalist" move that Latin America loves so much.

    You are american, right? You must be, because you show little knowledge of foreign politics. Sure, Latin America has its share of "left-wing nutjobs", like Evo Morales in Bolivia and Hugo Chavez in Venezuela. But that's not the case in Brazil. We also have our left-wing nutjobs (and one of them ended in third place in yesterday's election) but they seldom achieve anything important.

    About the "little respect for forign IP in the past", it didn't matter if it was foreign or national, it was a question of public health, which should be one of the top priorities in any government. AIDS strikes harder on poor people, and the pharmaceutical industry doesn't seem to be willing to spread the return of their investiment for too long.
    And just for you to know, the Minister of Health that made this move was a center-right wing politician (which by the way won the election for governor in Sao Paulo, where 1/4 or Brazil population lives).

    --
    So say we all
  14. It always been that way by Wooky_linuxer · · Score: 1

    You always had to pick a invalid number since we started using eletronic ballots here. 0, 00, 000 or so on will do fine.

    --
    Where is that guy who'd die defending what I had to say when I need him?
    1. Re:It always been that way by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      So any C NULL pointer value will do find then?

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  15. It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some years ago, those who distrust e-voting machines managed to put into votation in the Brazilian Congress a proposed law who would require 10% (yes, only 10 percent) of the machines to come with printers. The idea was for those machines to print two copies of the vote: one for the voter, who would have confirmed his vote, and another to be put into a sealed urn by the voter (who would be able to check whether the printing was correct). If doubts arose on the results of an election, those urns could then be opened for manual counting, and if big differences were found between these 10% of printed votes and the full results, the election would be cancelled and redone (probably with paper balots).

    A sound idea, don't you think? But, guess what? Yeah, the law wasn't approved. And as a result, there's absolutely no written proof at all of what or whom people actually voted for.

    Also, there's a law around that forbids independent research of voting intentions to be spread in news some days before an election. I'm not sure whether this law is being enforced right now, but the official reason behind it is that such researchs "interfere" in the voting decision of the people. Now, just imagine what this means: e-voting machines registering "votes" that cannot be traced, plus voting researches disallowed days before an election. Yes, you're right: if someone that was far behind in the voting intentions got elected, it might be alleged that the people changed their mind between the last allowed research and actual election day. How can you argue against it? You can't.

    This is the recipe on how you can build a dictatorship that has no appearance of being a dictatorship. You don't need to be violent. All you need is to put some clever technology into it, and you're done. Government becomes a permanent ownership of you and of your associates. After all, who said that multiple "competing" parties aren't really a single entity with lots of names, existing only for the people to believe they have choice?

    In the last two presidential elections (2002 and this 2006 one), all the four presidential candidates were from left-wing parties. There's a range: from soft left-wing to extreme left-wing. But it's all left. Different parties, or single-party with four different names for you to "choose" from?

    Who knows?

    --
    Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    1. Re:It's worse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course. Having a proof that you voted on X candidate is a wide open door to start corruption on the election. There has never been such a thing as a PROOF.

      Votes were in paper and had only 1 copy. Since we changed to eletronic voting the process became more transparent even thought there were concerns about hacking the voting machines.

      But the reality is that people are voting on their candidates and many time of them are being elected where in the polls are not necessary in the first place. So again from a risk a point of view the media has many downsides than an electronic voting system.

    2. Re:It's worse! by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      A sound idea, don't you think? But, guess what? Yeah, the law wasn't approved.

      I remember that... too bad you just decided not to say why it wasn't approved. They tested this system in places where most voters are simple-minded people (for the Brazilian readers, it was in Sergipe and Distrito Federal) and they did it on purpose. It didn't work because it confused people. Instead of confirming the vote, most of them (for reasons I don't remember now) cancelled it, making the paper to be sheredded and the process to restart from beginning, leading to huge lines and voting happening until 10 PM, when they should end at 5 PM.

      The technology wasn't the problem there, it was the level of education of people voting. There is no technology that can turn dumb people in smart people.

      And it's sad that there are people with karma-modifying bonus who try to make a (wrong) point using only half of the information. No voting system is perfect, but you, as a brazilian, should know ours is much better than most voting system out there.

      --
      So say we all
    3. Re:It's worse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, not having the paper trail was a shame. But the law that forbids the spread of researches of voting intention is against the Constituion, and, so it is no more...

      Also, there are strong signals that the system is working well. There where already 2 elections where the results are against the expectations of the party at power (2002 & 2006).

      And if you consider both PSDB and PT left-wing partyes, who do you consider rigt-wing? PFL, that is (and always was) allied with the "left-wing" PSDB, or the small (and almost invisible) extreme right PRONA? There is no other party at Brazil that could be called "right-wing" by that definition.

    4. Re:It's worse! by fmobus · · Score: 1

      leaving um copy of the vote with voter is an open door do VOTER COERCION. Period

    5. Re:It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      Good to know. But I know Lula has already mentioned he'd like to see a new Constitution. Since he's the same guy who tried controlling the newspaper with the "National Council on Journalism"...

      And regarding parties, PFL is center, yes. A center party, having no position on anything, always aling himself with whoever can give it power. That's the case also with Maluf's PP, which is aligned with Lula's PT.

      PRONA is a joke. But it's hardly a right-wing party either. The ideology of PRONA is based on the ideas of Lyndon LaRouche, a member of USA's Democratic Party. LaRouche cannot be called a right-winger by any stretch of imagination, except if you focus on very specific aspects of his ideology and ignore everything else. Also, see here LaRouche defending Eneas for some interesting details.

      So, yes, there's no right-wing party in Brazil.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    6. Re:It's worse! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no technology that can turn dumb people in smart people.

      Presumably these people had trouble with the paper conmfirmations because they were illiterate. This would be generally due them being uneducated. Calling someone 'dumb' (and earlier 'simple-minded') because they have not had a chance to even learn to read and write is insulting, verging on racist in the context, and inaccurate. 'Dumb' (still insulting but at least accurate) should only be used for people who have been given an education but have failed to learn.

      As you clearly failed to learn any of the above during your (presumed) education then I guess you qualify as pretty 'dumb' yourself.

    7. Re:It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      Hmm... yes, I can see how's that. The obvious solution would then be for a single copy to be printed and put into the urn. Actually, now I'm not sure whether the proposal was for two prints, my memory can be tricking me there.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    8. Re:It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      I don't see your point. This problem is nothing that proper TV-training cannot solve, as was the case with the use of the e-voting machines themselves has shown. Had these "dumb" people been trained for weeks before having an actual contact with the machine? No. There's no surprise then that they didn't manage well in actually using them.

      And no, as "a Brazilian" I shouldn't "know" any of it. As "a Brazilian" what I have is a duty to speak loudly on what's wrong. Paper balots are the best thing for democracy, period. No easily-hackeable technology should be in charge of the voting itself. If you want technology, put it in assuring the manualo vote counting of the paper balots isn't tampered. Not on the voting itself.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    9. Re:It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      Yes, I concede that having two prints isn't good. However, I might be remembering the event without much precision. AFAIK it was two prints, but it might actually have been one. I'm not sure now.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    10. Re:It's worse! by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      If you want technology, put it in assuring the manualo (sic) vote counting of the paper balots isn't tampered. Not on the voting itself.

      Excellent idea! But how to implement it? Removing the humans from the equation?

      Every voting system is flawless by itself. It's the human factor which messes everything. Are electronic voting machines hackeable? Probably. How much they can affect an election by tampering individual voting machines when there are 126 million voters and an average of 450 voters per voting machine? Maybe too little.

      Sure, they can tamper the system at the root, tampering the basic software and therefore tampering all the voting machines. But how long do you think this could fool everybody, specially when the voting machines can be audited and the whole voting process is controlled by an independent power branch?

      This thread is getting long and so far I can't figure out your point. You seem to be against the current electronic voting model but I still can't figure out why. You say it's fraud prone and I agree with you, but paper ballot used to be much more fraud prone in Brazil, historically speaking. I can only imagine you are young, in your early 20's and don't remember how elections used to be, because you have too many good arguments to have a bad memory.

      --
      So say we all
    11. Re:It's worse! by alexgieg · · Score: 1
      But how long do you think this could fool everybody, specially when the voting machines can be audited and the whole voting process is controlled by an independent power branch?
      We're talking about Brazil, remember? There's no real opposition, only an "opposition" that signed the "governability pact". The auditors can be buyed, and there's no guarantee that the independent government branch is actually independent. On the contrary, everything points to it being very little independent.

      And the why is simple: because there's no accountability. If the electronic voting was simply a speed up process, with a 100% paper-trail of votes for manual counting if required by a judicial mandate, for example, then I wouldn't have anything against it. But a purely electronic voting without any physical evidence of the actual votes is extremely dangerous, and by this sole reason shouldn't be allowed to exist.
      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    12. Re:It's worse! by Rayonic · · Score: 1
      Also, there's a law around that forbids independent research of voting intentions to be spread in news some days before an election. I'm not sure whether this law is being enforced right now, but the official reason behind it is that such researchs "interfere" in the voting decision of the people.

      Sounds like the US's "clean campaign" laws, albeit taken to the next logical level.
    13. Re:It's worse! by Rivabem · · Score: 1

      Man, PSBD is left just in the the name (S = socialist)

      The last canadian "socialist" governments are "radical" compared to them

    14. Re:It's worse! by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

      In the last poll in my state (RS) I know of, Rigotto PMDB would win at the first round with 54%. When the results came, he was in 3rd place with 27%. Yeda PSDB that was in third place ended in the first place with 33%. Rigotto wont even go to the second round. How was that? Someone claimed that people voted for Yeda in the last minute to avoid letting Olivio PT to go to the second round, but I dont bite it. Thats very strange. But I dont think there would be fraud only here if these ballots were so hackeable, I hope its just a real last minute change of mind...

    15. Re:It's worse! by Rivabem · · Score: 1

      "In the last poll in my state (RS) I know of, Rigotto PMDB would win at the first round with 54%."

      I think you missed some polls because he had 29% in the last pool I saw, saturday.

    16. Re:It's worse! by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

      I missed it, but that was pretty quick then! I is still strange, but I will not care too much about that, it there were something wrong, Rigotto should be at least pointing that out.

  16. What about pencil and paper? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    India has been using an EVM for a while, it has no operating system and is a bare-bones equivalent of a calculator with a line printer attached. Hook it up to a standard dot-matrix printer and get voting. It is probably as simple as a system can be.

    Between the printer and the input device, that setup sounds far more complex than a mere slip of paper and a pencil.

    1. Re:What about pencil and paper? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He quite clearly was referring to EVM's (electronic voting machines). He even provided a Wikipedia link.

      Douche.

  17. Side-channels in Brazilian's Diebold machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was told by a voting-booth clerk that it was easy to identify which 2-digit president's id was entered by anyone in the keyboard by just listening to the different sound each keypad key would produce. No anonymity at this last Brazilian election if you had a clever clerk.

  18. tinfoil hat time by sydres · · Score: 1

    all these countries, including the U.S. that are having electronic voting issues are being used by less democratic nations to prove that democracy is bad. Slashdot is playing right into the hands of people like Kim Jong Il, and Hugo Chavez (yeah I know he was democraticaly elected but he has since legislated the country to the point he can't lose again". one thing that might help though it may be unpopular is a voter ID card if done right it could help alleviate the most blatent human issues, such as voter fraud. If not done right could become a source of discrimination. another issue that is getting out of hand is either party automatically screaming voter fraud every time a candidate loses a race, then sending in hordes of lawyers to try to prove their case. oh well what do I know.

    1. Re:tinfoil hat time by ben+there... · · Score: 1
      all these countries, including the U.S. that are having electronic voting issues are being used by less democratic nations to prove that democracy is bad. Slashdot is playing right into the hands of people like Kim Jong Il, and Hugo Chavez

      Yeah. If you question the legitimacy of electronic voting without a paper trail, you are a terrorist.

      I say we report CowboyNeal to DHS for harboring this kind of terrorism.
    2. Re:tinfoil hat time by sydres · · Score: 1

      I'll bite. I was not speaking of terrorism. And A paper trail may damn well work I was just making the point that the world is looking at democracy as it stands and scratching their heads over all the issues that are cropping up over voting. and besides with all the dupes and links to other message board sites I am about terrified to log into slashdot anymore

    3. Re:tinfoil hat time by ben+there... · · Score: 1

      Nah. It was a joke. What you posted just sounded similar to something GWB would say.

      I can see how failures in voting processes could make democracy not look as grand as Americans say it is, but I don't see how not voting at all could be more favorable than voting with flaws.

  19. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    It was an AIDS drug, which allows all of the lefties to argue that "the people" have a "right" to the research of others.

    I'll tell you this: if you had a treatment for a terminal disease and I needed it but couldn't pay your extortionate price (most of which is to cover profit and marketing, research on drugs is third on the list of expenses) I'd fucking shoot you, your wife, and your dog if I had to and take it. And I'm quite sure you'd do the same if the positions were reversed, cunt.

  20. 5 words: Voter Verified Paper Audit Trail by davidwr · · Score: 1

    With it, even Microsoft-run boxes are safe from everything short of a fire or other paper-ballot-tampering.

    Without it, the most open-source system may still be vulnerable to a subtle bug.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  21. The real story here. by WgT2 · · Score: 1

    About 125 million people are expected to vote...
    I think we found the real story here: 125 million out of an estimated 186,405,000 (2005)?
    Doesn't seem to add up with the percentage of their population under 15 years of age (30% according to that website).

    Even if it's only somewhat off:

    THAT'S A HUGE VOTER TURNOUT!
    HOW DO THEY DO IT?

    1. Re:The real story here. by kalirion · · Score: 1

      How do districts in the U.S. count several times more votes than they have registered voters? Yup, the same way.

    2. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      In Brazil you can vote if you are:

      * between 16 and 18
      * over 70
      * illiterate
      * blind or otherwise disabled

      And you must vote if you are between 18 and 70 and literate.

      The numbers do add up, if you consider that the groups for which voting is optional are not required to register as voters. So, the number of voters is in no way directly related to the number of people over 15.

    3. Re:The real story here. by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 0

      Honestly? Because it's such a crappy place to live. The worse it is, the more people are going to vote, hoping things will change.

      In Brazil, people STILL fight over land. They have a HUGE squatting problem. In the developed world, invested capital has increased productivity to the point where no one cares who has the most land. You know who has the most land? Farmers. Think they're living high on the hog?

      Now, there are big real estate moguls, but their land is valuable, not incredibly large.

      The point is, all of Brazil's problems look pretty trivial to an outsider.

    4. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      186,405,000 * 0.7 = 130,483,500.

      130,483,500 > 125 million.

      No magic at all. You may need to notice that anyone at least 16 years old can vote.

    5. Re:The real story here. by keeboo · · Score: 1

      I think we found the real story here: 125 million out of an estimated 186,405,000 (2005)?
      THAT'S A HUGE VOTER TURNOUT!
      HOW DO THEY DO IT?

      That's very simple: voting is mandatory in Brazil.
      If a person doesn't vote (and does not fill the justification form for not voting), he/she loses the right to a number of things including opening bank accounts, getting a new passport, etc... And if you're a public servant, you immediately stop receiving your salary.

    6. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      >> HOW DO THEY DO IT?

      It's basically illegal NOT to vote. That's how.

      In my opinion, Brazil knows quite a bit more about democracy than the US ever will.

    7. Re:The real story here. by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      Ooooh, and without a paper trail, how do you prove that you did in fact vote, if your salary payment is suddenly stopped? Something tells me that mandatory voting may be the law, but it is not enforced.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    8. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      First, the population estimations are the ones that are probably wrong. Brazilian electoral data is very accurate (it is even used to check fiscal data).

      Now, the hight turnout is because most brazilians (the ones between 18 and 60 years) are oblied to vote.

    9. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Voting is mandatory in Brazil for anyone between 18 and 65 years old. From 16 to 18 it's optional.

      I think your 30% mark is off.

    10. Re:The real story here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its the law, its enforced (maybe one of the few that *are*). You get a voting receipt, pre-printed, just after typing the numbers in the voting machine, proving that you were there and choosed the next leading gang. (And after all, only public employees can have the salary blocked, and the fine for not voting is something less than two us dollars...)

    11. Re:The real story here. by Dr.Potato · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Ooooh, and without a paper trail, how do you prove that you did in fact vote, if your salary payment is suddenly stopped? Something tells me that mandatory voting may be the law, but it is not enforced."

      I worked in the elections ( I was drafted..) and can tell you how it works. The person who comes to vote brings his 'Voting card' (lacking a better translation for Titulo Eleitoral), presents it to a person of the voting staff (like me) who checks in a list if he is scheduled to vote in that area. After, and only after, he votes, he gets a 'voting certificate, which is a small stub that can be detached from the area close to his name in the list.

      The person voting is required to sign the list, and this signature is checked against the signature in the voting card. If there is any doubt in the identity of the person, we can request further prof of identity (ID card, driving license...).

      This list is sent from the central voting tribunal to each election region, which is divided in smaller 'sections'. In my sections there were approx. 400 voters. More or less 90% appeared, the others probably justified for not voting in other sections.

      And just to make another point: every political party is entitled to have a person checking the voting procedure, in each section. I had 2 people (one form each party) looking over my shoulder almost all the time.

      And they cheked when the disk with the voting machine results was removed from the machine and placed in a sealed envelope . And they further followed the guy who took the disk to the central processing center of the Electoral Tribunal.

      Apart from the software side, the process if very difficult to
      be tampered.

      --
      "Science is common sense with peer review"
    12. Re:The real story here. by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's about as valid as me saying:

      Districts in the U.S. don't count several times more votes than they have registered voters, unless they vote for the Domocrat candidate.

      Any examples besides from kookie conspiracy theorists and Louisiana?

    13. Re:The real story here. by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Land ownership is not trivial at all: it used to be the requirement for voting rights at the foundation of this country. (I personally don't own land and actually think that's not a bad idea. But, I wouldn't push for it since because... "just about any answer would be valid")

      (I also think Rio's homeless children is a pretty big problem and in no way trivial.)

    14. Re:The real story here. by WgT2 · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the tutorial; it should be posted to Wikipedia.

    15. Re:The real story here. by kalirion · · Score: 1

      Any examples besides from kookie conspiracy theorists and Louisiana?

      How about Ohio(pdf)?

      On election day, a computerized voting machine in ward 1B in the Gahana precinct of
      Franklin County recorded a total of 4,258 votes for President Bush and 260 votes for Democratic
      challenger John Kerry.254 However, there are only 800 registered voters in that Gahana precinct,
      and only 638 people cast votes at the New Life Church polling site.[255] It has since been
      discovered that a computer glitch resulted in the recording of 3,893 extra votes for President
      George W. Bush256 - the numbers were adjusted to show President Bush's true vote count at 365
      votes and Senator Kerry's at 260 votes.[257]
      (page 57)

      That's the biggest one I know of, though if you read the entire report you'll see a whole lot of smaller discrepancies.

      Also in Wisconsin.

    16. Re:The real story here. by keeboo · · Score: 1

      Ooooh, and without a paper trail, how do you prove that you did in fact vote, if your salary payment is suddenly stopped? Something tells me that mandatory voting may be the law, but it is not enforced.

      "Ooohh" yourself.
      There is a paper you receive when voting which serves as such proof, and that paper is required when opening a bank account, for example

    17. Re:The real story here. by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      do your math. 186 million minus 125 million equals 61 million. 61 million is close to 30% of 186 million.

      the numbers are correct.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    18. Re:The real story here. by fmoliveira · · Score: 1

      I hope you are being sarcastic. Someone that would not care to go vote without being enforced by law, certainly did not care to think nor gather any information and will just cast a bad vote.

  22. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by alexgieg · · Score: 1

    Wrong, wrong, extremely wrong! The party of the ex-Minister of Health, newly elected governor of the Sao Paulo state, Mr. Jose Serra, from which our former president, Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso, is also a member, is the PSDB. What "PSDB" means? It means "Brazilian Social-Democratic Party". Yes, social-democracy. Were it not enough, Mr. Serra was one of the left-wing exilees who departed Brazil on 1970's when our (this time correctly named as such) right-wing dictatorship was hardening.

    It has been some 20 years since Brazil had an actual right-wing politician in power. That's why many people nowadays, unaware of what "right-wing" really means, call these soft-left politicians "right". They don't know better.

    By the way, they also don't know well what "extreme right" is. They think our dictatorship of the 1960's and 1970's was of the extreme right, when it was far from it. The actual Brazilian extreme-right, the fascists of the Integralist Movement, were crushed by our right-wing dictatorship much in the same way the extreme-left was crushed. And what was this "crushing" anyway? Around 15 deaths per year (little more than one per month) for 20 years: the lightest dictatorship of the whole XX century actually.

    Pay no attention to this disinformation on what PSDB is. It's soft-left, democratic left, but left nevertheless. The most "right" thing we have these days is the PFL, "Liberal Front Party". It's hardly more than center of the center, and is crashing anyway, having lost a lot of power in the 2006 election. The future of Brazil is to be fully left-winger.

    Too bad for Brazilians. We'll suffer a lot and won't know why.

    --
    Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  23. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

    People shouldn't be fooled by the parties names in Brazil. And as physics say, it all depends on your point of reference. Inside Brazilian politics, PSDB has a slight right-wing bias. They wouldn't join forces with PFL (the most right-wing party in Brazil, among the ones that deserve attention, in my opinion) if they didn't have a right-wing bias. If you say that all parties are left-wing, you are contradicting yourself. After all, if they are all on the left, there is no sides, therefore, no left or right to consider. "Center" is half way from the leftmost wing and rightmost wing.

    --
    So say we all
  24. Trust by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

    You mean that a broad, automatic, transparent tampering, is difficult because it requires the tampering software to be concealed ? The fact that it would require to hire a few competent and dishonest developers surely doesn't make it secure enough to use it in any serious election.
    Also, why do the ballots move to the counters where counters could go themselves to the preccinct ?
    Stop thinking that democracy is a complex thing to organize. When one can have an army, one can have a voting system that is reliable and fast. I wouldn't say inexpensive, but since when do we discuss budget when we talk about Democracy ?

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Trust by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, here in Belgium we have some elections next weekend, and we have a beautiful electronic system to register the votes. Votes are recorded on an electronic card, which is then entered in a computer that counts all the votes. No paper trail anywhere, and the cards are -required by law- destroyed the next day. So, 24 hours after the election, the official results is all there is. No recount or verification is ever possible. Fraud, you think? Naa, that only happens elsewhere...

  25. As simple as a POS by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    I believe that one can program an off the shelf point of sale system to do a vote count without much effort. You don't even need to write any software. Just get something from Sharp, NCR, Citizen, Canon, or any other of a whole zoo of commercially available POS machines. Also, anyone that can do: "Ya'want fries wizzat?", can then run an election, but that would be real grass-roots democracy and we don't want that, now do we?

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:As simple as a POS by pembo13 · · Score: 1

      That's what I always thought. I just assumed there was more to it than that, so I was wrong.

      --
      "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
  26. Uhhh, invalid assumption by Gription · · Score: 1

    You are making the assumption that the Linux base used for a voting machine would be getting updates from the 'real world' distribution. There is nothing that says you have to use outside code after you start developing. In fact I can't imagine any project manager who would accept any outside code once the OS base had been selected.

    Electronic voting machines are all about eliminating variables. The only variable in the system should be the the candidates.

    The biggest objection to Microsoft is that you are working from code that is doing things that you don't know about. In addition Microsoft isn't going to give you an explanation either...

    Someone here mentioned that HEX code wouldn't be more secure. If it was as large a bloated as a higher level language that might be true. The hole in that argument is that large monolithic code by its very nature has all sorts of hidden surprises. Small machine/assembler code programs don't have fat to hide surprises. Why do we need a huge fat GUI for a voting system? There are much easier and secure ways to do this.

    The basic problem with every part of this is the logical flow of the overall voting process hasn't been analyzed in an open forum to break the problem down to the most basic, simple, and secure process.

  27. MOD PARENT UP by fmobus · · Score: 1

    There is no law stating that 50%+1 null votes would block candidates from running the next election. This is purely an urban legend.

  28. Re:President is the lesser of brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they elected Maluf,Collor and 15 guys directly envolved into corruption schemes in the power again :/

    maluf is like a black hole,hes unoficial motto is "he steals but does it",but he steals a lot and do little,its probably that he stealed close to 300 million of dollars from são paulo city alone

    Collor is a former president that froze all the accounts in brazil and then cleaned em,like the "ultimate hacker" XD

  29. ...Summary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...Too... many... ellipses... in... summary...

  30. Mod parent up... by TigerNut · · Score: 1

    The reason for using a vanilla F/OSS operating system is that it will, for the reasons described by the parent, be unlikely that it's corrupted specifically for the purpose of throwing an election. The voting application should only make generic use of the OS services so that it is less likely that an unknown or little known weakness of the OS will be exploited or exposed. Other than Diebold's unwillingness to expose the source to their voting machines, the main problem with them appears to be simply that they're way too complicated... all that you need is a screen that presents the candidates and a button beside each candidate's name, which has to be pressed long enough that it can't be an accident. And counting software at the other end, which should be manageable using any competent database app.

    --

    Less is more.

  31. The Weak Link Should Be Eliminated. by twitter · · Score: 0, Troll

    all the intelectual property developed by the 3 companies was transfered to the union. ... they can choose to hire other comapnies to manufacture the units in the future if they son choose.

    That's nice but your software is not the problem, using Wince is. People have shown how easy it is to physically break into Dibold systems, but that would not matter if there was decent code auditing in place. Your chances of getting that to work with WinCE are about as good as Dibold's. Bill Gates will have something to say about the ownership of WinCE and how it works, so it might be easier to start from scratch than transfer your source code out of that black hole. The ease of hacking into WinCE is another giant problem you won't have with other software. You can only trust a system as much as you can trust it's weakest part, regardless of what company builds the rest. The effort required to secure WinCE would be like rewriting the OS. It would be easier to start your code from scratch with an OS that works.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:The Weak Link Should Be Eliminated. by jb.hl.com · · Score: 2, Informative
      Secure WinCE? Against what, exactly? I would hope to god the voting machines weren't connected to a public network, and at any rate the WinCE codebase is almost entirely different from that of NT and 9x. Also:

      A distinctive feature of Windows CE vis-à-vis other Microsoft operating systems is that large parts of it are offered in source code form. First, source code was offered to several vendors, so they could adjust it to their hardware. Then products like Platform Builder (an integrated environment for Windows CE OS image creation and integration, or customized operating system designs based on CE) offered several components in source code form to the general public.


      Source. So, kindly, please stop talking out of your ass. I know you love bashing Microsoft, but at least try to be sane and sensible about it, k?
      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    2. Re:The Weak Link Should Be Eliminated. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

      • As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
      • Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
      • A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
      • Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
      • Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
      • Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
      • Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
      • Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
      • Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
      • There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

      From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

    3. Re:The Weak Link Should Be Eliminated. by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 1

      that's why our ballots are not connected to any kind of network during voting hours, and they have several physical security measures as well, like tamper proof locks, seals and intusion sensors. if those are violated before vote counting begins, the ballot and all it's votes are voided.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
  32. Re:Microsoft has a reason to be worried by alexgieg · · Score: 1

    Lenin, after the Communist Revolution in Russia, strenghtened the property system in his NEP policy. Why? Because that way he would be able to get tons of money from international capitalists. When he gathered enough to make the revolution completion possible, then he eliminated private property.

    Your argument is weak. No left party in history avoided making alliances with what they consider to be the right. The Brazilian left-wing parties are no exception. And in regards to social-democracy, don't forget that its banner is to bring socialism by way of political reforms, not of political confrontations, which necessarily means alliances with forces "in the right".

    In regards to the names left and right, yes, you're correct if we think of Brazil only, because there're always two "extremes" and a "middle" no matter what the range of possibilities is. But I'm thinking in terms of the worldwide political spectrum, not the local one. The whole of the local Brazilian political spectrum is a subset of the global one, and a subset located into what, on the global scale, is commonly called "left". That's the point. Something as the British conservatism, or the the American one (which is center when compared to the former), are nowadays devoid of any formal political representation in Brazil. There's simply no conservative party in Brazil at all. And as a result, what we have of most "right-wing" here are some parties without any ideological identity, with no philosophical basis for their beliefs and actions, and with zero militancy. How "right-wing" is that? None.

    --
    Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  33. OS is not Win CE by eduardodavis · · Score: 1

    Most part of all this discussion is based on wrong information: the operating system of the Brazilia voting machines IS NOT Windows CE. It is VirtuOS, an old DOS like operating system... I have read and discussed about Diebold voting machines before on my blog (http://macarronada.blogspot.com/2006/09/voting-ma chines.html#links) and I understand that the process and hardware of the Brazilian machines are much better than the AccuVote-TS for example. They are simple, but better ( just remember: K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple Stupid). Just see the tests Princeton University professors did: http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/

    1. Re:OS is not Win CE by thalassinos · · Score: 1
      To quote from that paragon of accurate facts known as Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Brazil#T he_Brazilian_voting_machines ):
      The original operating system was VirtuOS developed and copyrighted by Microbase. It was used in 1996, 1998 and 2000. In 2002, Unisys was incapable to set a patnership with Microbase, and Microsoft provided the Windows CE operating system free of charge. In 2004, Procomp decided to migrate to Linux as a cost reduction measure.
      So, to answer the eternal question: -

      Does it run linux?

      The answer is probably, yes.
  34. i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by bodrell · · Score: 1
    According to the Portuguese wikipedia page, which actually cites Brazilian statutes, the null vote is not the same as the blank ("white") vote. A blank vote doesn't count for anyone in particular. It's the same as if the person hadn't voted, since all blank votes are tallied for the winning candidate. The null vote, on the other hand, could actually win the election, requiring a new election within 20-40 days. One thing I'd like to know is whether the blank votes can put one candidate over the edge, giving him a majority. Lula was less than 2% from getting a clean majority, so if 2% of the population voted blank, would that have avoided the need for a runoff?

    Whether a null vote win requires all the previous candidates to drop out of the next race, I don't know. But it is definitely not the same as the blank vote.

    By the way, it might be of interest to some /.ers that not only is voting in Brazil mandatory between the ages of 18 and 70 (if I remember correctly), but so is polling-station duty. It's like jury duty. Yesterday my girlfriend was the "president" of her local polling station in Rio. Looks like she'll be back there in a few weeks for the runoff. Even worse than jury duty, however, is the fact that poll duty is for three consecutive years.

    --
    Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
    1. Re:i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

      One thing I'd like to know is whether the blank votes can put one candidate over the edge, giving him a majority. Lula was less than 2% from getting a clean majority, so if 2% of the population voted blank, would that have avoided the need for a runoff?

      No. And I can say that with all confidence, because Lula got 48.61% and blank votes were 2.73% (you can check the facts here.)
      Besides, if you sum up all the candidates % of votes, you will see they add up to 100%, therefore neither blank or null votes are considered.
      The null vote stuff is harder to predict, because the Constitution says one thing and the Electoral Code says other thing. So if it happens, the final word is given by the Supreme Electoral Court.

      Even worse than jury duty, however, is the fact that poll duty is for three consecutive years.

      You mean two consecutive elections, right? Since we have elections every 2 years... (I'm not contradicting you, just making your information clearer for the ones who doesn't know the Brazilian voting system).

      --
      So say we all
    2. Re:i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by bodrell · · Score: 1
      Even worse than jury duty, however, is the fact that poll duty is for three consecutive years.

      You mean two consecutive elections, right? Since we have elections every 2 years... (I'm not contradicting you, just making your information clearer for the ones who doesn't know the Brazilian voting system).

      Actually, I'm a bit unclear on the matter. My girlfriend and her brother manned the polling stations last October--perhaps a mayoral election, I'm not sure. But it was definitely last year, not two years ago. Then again, in Brazil the jeitinho dominates--I just found out that my girlfriend's brother managed to cast a vote in the last presidential election even though he was 17, and technically ineligible.

      By the way, I'm really envious of the null vote system; Nevada has something similar, a NOTA (None Of The Above) option, but with no teeth, since NOTA cannot "win" an election. I have a feeling voter turnout would be higher in the US if we had the option to throw out all the crooked candidates instead of choosing the lesser evil.

      Text from the Nevada law:

      Does Nevada have a "None of These Candidates" or "None of the Above" option on the ballot?

      Yes, NRS 293.269 requires that ballots for statewide offices, President, and Vice President permit a vote to express a choice of "None of These Candidates." However, only votes cast for named candidates are counted in determining the nomination or election to these offices.

      --
      Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
    3. Re:i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by Rivabem · · Score: 1
      Lula was less than 2% from getting a clean majority, so if 2% of the population voted blank, would that have avoided the need for a runoff?


      If you read the reports, you'll see that blank did 2,866,201 meaning (2.73%), and if they were added to Lula's votes he would win!

      That's just a hoax.

      The 48.61% he had are:

      Lula's / (total - blank - null)
      46,662,015 / (95,996,130 - 2,866201 - 5,957,182)

      Do the math...
    4. Re:i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by morto · · Score: 1

      "I just found out that my girlfriend's brother managed to cast a vote in the last presidential election even though he was 17, and technically ineligible."

      It is legal for registered voters over 16 to vote. The only difference is that voting is voluntary for teenagers under 18 and mandatory for adults up to a certain age when it is voluntary again (I think it is 70 but I am not sure).

      The "jeitinho" in this case might have been occurred if the teenager was not a registered voter, otherwise it is totally legal.

      --
      "Think globally, act locally".
    5. Re:i think you're mistaken about the "null vote" by bodrell · · Score: 1
      It is legal for registered voters over 16 to vote. The only difference is that voting is voluntary for teenagers under 18 and mandatory for adults up to a certain age when it is voluntary again (I think it is 70 but I am not sure).

      Thanks for the info. I was in Rio this summer, and was surprised when security guards helped a friend and me get into a private club (the Jockey Club), by telling them we were guests of one of the members. I'm relieved to hear the Brazilian electoral system does not have similarly lax security.

      --
      Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a soportar Si la vida me da palo, yo la voy a espabilar
  35. Re:President is the lesser of brazil's problems... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Collor is a former president that froze all the accounts in brazil and then cleaned em,like the "ultimate hacker" XD

    That's some serious bullshit, and I keep hearing it. If you want to bitch about the fact that he froze the accounts, I'll be right with you. However, he didn't "clean" them. Everyone got their money back with above-inflation interest.

  36. Same situation in the U.S. by Tancred · · Score: 1

    If you don't have access to the source code of the voting machines, you're giving up control of your election to a private party. A small group of people at that company will give you some numbers to tell you who won, but you'll have nothing but their word on it. On a smaller scale, anyone who knows a security hole can crack a particular voting machine. Most polling precincts have at least some honest people. Or if not honest, at least they're split into 2 or more camps that watch each other. But with a centralized, secret system, how many people would need to be bought off? A few billion dollars can buy a lot of people that would be honest if they had less power and temptation.

  37. More info by ThiagoHP · · Score: 1

    Opposite to what happens in most of the United States, people in jails now or people who were convicted before can vote. The advantage is that we don't have the disenfranchisement of anyone just like it happened in Florida. Other advantages of the Brazilian system is that elections are always on Sundays and that you need to be registered to vote, so 1) the election officials know exactly how many people will vote in any voting place and 2) it's almost impossible to vote twice without document forgery.

  38. Wrong info by ThiagoHP · · Score: 1

    The design and the source code of the Brazilian voting system belongs to the Judiciary power (the one who controls how elections are made, not politicians, like in the USA), not to the companies that developed them.

    1. Re:Wrong info by Tancred · · Score: 1

      Well, that's an improvement over the U.S. system. I would still distrust the centralized control, though. How independent of political motive is the Judiciary, and how immune to bribery are they? In the U.S., state election officials (Secretaries of State) have been very partisan is some suspicious cases. And the Supreme Court that eventually decided the 2000 election was heavily Republican-appointed (7 of 9).

    2. Re:Wrong info by ThiagoHP · · Score: 1

      Our Judiciary is quite independent of the government. Election officials are appointed by the Judiciary, not by the government, so many of the US election problems would not happen here. The USA election system, as a whole, flabbergasts me of how bad and politically controlled it is.

  39. Do something! by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

    A friend of mine was sick of not getting any information on the Diebold voting machines used in our municipal elections, despite many freedom of information requests. So he's running as a candidate to make it (and other democratic imperatives) an election issue.

    We need more people willing to do that.

    - RG>

    --
    Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
  40. FUD by dave562 · · Score: 1

    Just because the default Windows OS isn't secure out of the box doesn't mean that it can't be made secure. It's a pretty trival matter to lock down a non-networked Windows workstation and make sure that it only loads a single application when it boots. As long as the application is secure and the voting machine itself doesn't have any publicly accessible floppy drives or USB ports then it's good enough.

  41. Reading Slashdot articles and comments... by Jeian · · Score: 1

    ... one seems to get the impression that no matter that the problem is, it's caused by Microsoft and will be fixed by OSS.

  42. We need more articles submitted by Shatner by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We know its you, Bill.

    You just can't mistake...it. I think it makes...for a much more interesting...and intriguing...article when everything is split up...by strange punctuation. Especially since...it doesn't appear to be quoted. So I have to wonder...why the elipses?

  43. "Blank" fraud by acariquara · · Score: 1
    4) The blank vote has always existed, since the paper ballot and it has the same effect of nullified votes. But the blank votes were the fraud source in paper ballots: some dishonest vote counters would fill the blank votes during counting. Believe me, that happened much often than you can imagine. With voting machines, that's impossible.


    Also, some "smart" candidates used to run with names or aliases like "Branco" (Blank), or even common swear words like "puta", "viado" et alii (@ that time you could cast your vote as numbers or written names/nicknames)

    Many of them got even elected.
    --
    Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
  44. Eliminate the Weak Link by twitter · · Score: 1
    My favorite personal troll points out the security and freedom of Wince:

    large parts of it are offered in source code form.

    Microsoft's Shared source initiative is not free software and won't help anyone improve anything. First, you don't have all of the source, so the Trojan is still hidden. Second, you can't modify it and share your changes. The first problem negates the freedom you would have if distribution was unrestricted anyway. The "customizations" they are so proud of, therefore, are no better for security than changing the wallpaper on your desktop.

    The results are typical of M$ junk. "ActiveSync, TCP/IP and 802.11b Wireless Vulnerabilities of WinCE", "The exploit is triggered by viewing the malicious MMS message", " FrSIRT Security Advisories - Citrix Program Neighborhood Agent ... Note : In order to exploit these vulnerabilities the Program Neighborhood ..", and so on and so forth.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Eliminate the Weak Link by jb.hl.com · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's Shared source initiative is not free software and won't help anyone improve anything. First, you don't have all of the source, so the Trojan is still hidden. Second, you can't modify it and share your changes. The first problem negates the freedom you would have if distribution was unrestricted anyway. The "customizations" they are so proud of, therefore, are no better for security than changing the wallpaper on your desktop.

      You didn't mention anything about modifying, sharing or improving the code, or about it specifically being free software. You talked about "code auditing", which is what Microsoft offer the ability to do. What a nice straw man you built up there. Matter of fact, you seem to have started with your conclusion (i.e "Windows CE is shit") and tried to build your reasoning around it. And it doesn't work, because you're talking shit.

      The results are typical of M$ junk. "ActiveSync, TCP/IP and 802.11b Wireless Vulnerabilities of WinCE", "The exploit is triggered by viewing the malicious MMS message", " FrSIRT Security Advisories - Citrix Program Neighborhood Agent ... Note : In order to exploit these vulnerabilities the Program Neighborhood ..", and so on and so forth.

      However, we've already ascertained that the machine won't be connected to a network, wireless or otherwise, during operation, haven't we?

      You are talking bullshit. Please shut up. There are lots of legitimate concerns about voting machines; stop bringing your personal anti-Microsoft vendetta into things.

      --
      By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
    2. Re:Eliminate the Weak Link by dedazo · · Score: 1
      Microsoft's Shared source initiative is not free software.

      Interesting. So what you're saying here is that it would only be useful if it were under the GPL? Really?

      First, you don't have all of the source, so the Trojan is still hidden.

      You do have all of the source. What makes you think you don't? And what "trojan"? Are you implying that "M$" is inserting trojans into the software? Please, elaborate.

      Second, you can't modify it and share your changes.

      No, it's a comercially-licensed code sharing agreement, identical to the ones you can set up with IBM and Oracle and everyone else. Again, if it's not GPL then it must be useless, correct? Well that's a nice opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.

      The "customizations" they are so proud of, therefore, are no better for security than changing the wallpaper on your desktop.

      And your "arguments" are no better than FUD.

      BTW, for the record, I think it's a bad idea to use any sort of commercial software in these things - but I also think it's utterly useless to make the argument that only GPL software will do for the purpose. The government should control this software without any sort of vendor control and they should treat it just like defense software, with outside auditors to provide independent validation.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
  45. Those don't work. by twitter · · Score: 1

    that's why our ballots are not connected to any kind of network during voting hours

    They don't have to be to give faulty results.

    and they have several physical security measures as well, like tamper proof locks, seals and intusion sensors.

    Those kinds of measures have been easily defeated.

    if those are violated before vote counting begins, the ballot and all it's votes are voided.

    That's all it takes, sometimes, to throw an election.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.