Slashdot Mirror
Germany's New Internet License Fee
PapayaSF writes "Beginning January 1st, Germany will require payment of a license fee of 5.52 euros a month on computers and mobile phones that can access TV and radio programs over the Internet. Like the current TV and radio license fees, the money will support national and local public TV and radio stations. German companies with many computers are predictably upset." I'm not sure if this is the same story we discussed in 2004. Did this original fee go through, and this is another fee on top of the original?
Unfortunately not. With TVs, you still have to pay even if you remove the
tuner, because you could theoretically solder it back in..
Note: This is a flat fee. Every corporation has to pay it only once, regardless of the number of computers.
.. as in the story from 2004, they just reduced it a bit after a truckload of protests during the last 2 years.
Maybe a bit more background info from Germany here: this fee is used to support the state-owned radio and TV stations, the privately owned stations don't see a cent. This is supposedly to guarantee the higher-quality broadcasts from the state stations as opposed to the low-quality, market-driven programs from the private stations.. but as somebody who doesn't watch state TV as a principle, I won't pay this s**t.
no, if the tuner is disabled you dont have to pay.schools have made it this way.the play only educational video/dvds on the tv-sets and dont have to pay anymore.c ratic-republic)-methods.
/tom
i dont pay for years, they hunted me since 1998,but i moved to anotzher town,lived togetjer with my girlfriend in a flat where my name is not on the door.i even have a car, but i told that gestapo-officer i dont own a car.hehe.
the govenrment runs out of money, so they must gather money evry way possible....
thats why they use such stasi(wikipedia.org->staatssicherheit,german-demo
welcome back to 1984
greets
It is called "GEZ Gebühr" (fee for the GEZ, the Gebühreneinzugszentrale - Central for fee collecting, a divison of the public broadcast services ARD and ZDF), everyone in Germany has to pay the GEZ fee to receive radio broadcasts (reduced fee, about 5 Euro per month) or TV and radio broadcasts (full fee, about 15 Euro per month). It does not depend on the number of devices, you have to pay 15 Euro no matter if you own one TV set or 10.000. Some group of persons may apply for exemption.
The original idea of the "internet fee" was that you could receive internet streams from the websites of the public broadcast services with an internet capable device (not only PCs, but also UMTS mobile phones), so a PC would be equal to a TV set (yes, that's how german politicans think) and you have to pay the full GEZ fee. It simply does not matter if you actually do receive those streams, all that counts is that you are able to recevie them.
After lots of complaints from nearly every organisation, the "internet fee" was changed to the reduced radio fee. This does not affect common households, because they usually already pay for receiving radio and TV broadcasts, so the PC is "just another TV set". But each and every company that uses even only one PC now has to pay 5 Euro per month for the ability(!) to receive TV and radio broadcasts via internet. A related information: The german tax authorities force you to use an internet capable PC for your monthly tax declaration, so nearly every company now has to pay the GEZ fee.
Tux2000, nearly becoming mad during the attempt to translate this nonsense into english
Denken hilft.
This hysteria is typical of slashdot and a load of rubbish; Here in Switzerland Computers with internet connections have paid the radio/tv tax for years now, and the sun still shines over the alps. The German law is exactly the same as the Swiss one and works like this:
Each household pays a monthly or quarterly bill to the state run TV and Radio stations. They pay the same amount no matter how many computers, TVs or radios they have. The bill is one single price per household.
Each company pays only one bill no matter how many computers or TVs they have. It is NOT based on the number of computers.
Slashdot and its sensationalist attempts to gather hits and therefore drive up ad revenue make their comments on any news event seem very hypocritical.
I recall a couple of years ago the BBC said something along the lines of "if you stream TV clips then you need a TV license". I don't think there was talk of legislating it, however.
Only if it's been broadcasted to the UK at the same (or similar) time. I.E. Downloading an specific episode of "the Simpsons" that's being broadcast on C4 at 6PM, or Sky One at 7PM, is only OK outside of that time.
Note that the UK does have exceptions for TVs owned by businesses and used exclusively for prerecorded video.
No, the UK has exception for any TV's that aren't used to receive broadcast video. The wireless telegraphy act and it's ammendemnts specificaly state it's the USE of euipment to RECEIVE BROADCASTS that needs licensing.
There are various forms to fill in, and it's checked fairly regularly.
The TV License people have no legal right to "check" you. They can gather any evidence that they legally can (look through your window, scan for the IF, etc), and present it to court. To enter your property they need a search warrant.
Something similar should apply to computers, although I'm not sure you can "neuter" a computer in the same way as a TV (unplugging the aerial, usually. Ripping out the tuner is a bit drastic).
Yes, if you have a TV that's not tuned in to the local transmitter and not plugged in, that would be enough to satisfy any court. Of course as long as you don't watch the TV, and don't let the TVL people in, there's little they can do to proove you are or arent watching.
With TV over IP, I suppose they could look at getting the ISP to provide logs, however that would probably break the data protection act. Their only real evidence would come through watching your through a window.
That's right. So here in the Netherlands, everyone has to pay even if he has no TV.
That of course solves the problem of licensing PC and mobile phones as well.
No, its not long gone, its still around. As are the NHK-men collecting fees. The fee is closer to 3,000yen though, not 2,000. The difference is that now... they are actually taking people to court for not paying. Not everyone, I think so far they have taken 100 people or so to court, as a form of public intimidation. "You could be next." This happened after so many people suddenly decided to STOP paying, after a big scandal that NHK had been using funds for drinking, partying, fake "business trips" etc., in the millions of dollars range.
Interestingly enough, you can't be sued if you have never paid. If you are currently paying, you have a contract you have signed, and they can sue you for breach of contract. Not suing you for not following the NHK payment law. That's why they can't sue me because I have always flat out refused to pay, and have never signed a payment contract. YMMV.
This, however, is likely to change soon. They are trying to pass a new law that actually has teeth, where they can lock down your bank account or wages etc. if you refuse to pay. But as usual, if they can't prove you have a TV... so be it.
That said, the NHK-man recently came by, and I said "Nope, no longer have TV." NHK-man then said "How about a computer with a TV tuner card?" Aaaaaah, the NHK-man is getting smart. But again, no have. This tube here that looks like a TV, well, it ain't. And FYI, the law doesn't say "TV", but rather something along the lines of "a device capable of receiving broadcast signals and displaying a color image". If you have a B&W TV, the cost is lower.
2. If you already pay for radio or TV, you don't pay for your computer
3. The fee is the same as for radio, it was reduced from the much higher one for TV because there were a lot of protests and because they finally had to admit that currently only radio can really be received via the internet
4. A company only pays for one computer (if they don't already pay for TV or radio) per site
5. If you already pay for TV or radio but you use your computer for business, you have to pay for it.
In particular point 5 is a big problem: Small shops and people running a business from home will have to pay an additional fee even though they usually don't use the computer for receiving radio or TV. This is particularly stupid because the state requires businesses to deliver their tax forms electronically, basically forcing them to have an internet connected computer for which they then collect a fee.
(OK, it's not the inland revenue who collects the fee but a separate entity called GEZ, but it's the government that passes these stupid laws.)
Obviously most of that money is not used for humanitarian targets, right? Obviously a few thousand priests just bathe in gold..
In Germany their is a radio fee and a TV fee (as opposed to the UK where the radio fee was dropped in the early 60's). Here, the radio fee is being applied as a TV fee on Internet devices.
Radio programs are normally available streamed, afaik TV programs are not and no-one is going to demand that the extra cash raised is ring-fenced.
I certainly will not be getting a UMTS mobile phone because the fee is raised there as well. Given the obscene amount of money various Mobile Phone companies paid for their UMTS licenses, maybe they should sue . . .
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
And for TV its not 5 Euro, its more in the range of 20 Euro.
... it anoys me to much to get ripped off liek this.
There are attempts to stop that, but likely they fail. If that is not from the table I will leave this country
o I don't own a TV set
o with a computer you actually can't watch TV, as no single station is even broadcastin into the internet (except some news every 2 hours for 5 or 15 minutes)!!
o it would be totally simple to use an authentification schema so that only ppl who pay hte fee could recieve (download/stream) TV
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Are you referring to the myth that TV detector vans could pick up signals from working TVs? They can't; that was a lie to try to scare people into complying. The antennae on the vans were purely for show.
Last time I was in one it certainly seemed convincing from the inside. There were only 3 in the country though. The IF (about 35MHz) is detectable on the downlink cable form the ariel. It won't work with communal ariel systems though.
Of course, these days when you buy a TV you have to give your name and address (no idea what happens if you refuse), so they automatically know who owns a TV and don't need any of that silliness.
Last time I bought a TV from Comet, they insisted it was a legal requirement. I gave my work address (BBC Television Centre), although I was tempted to give "Number 10", and "SW1A 2AA". Gave a false name too.
Only thing I've had is marketing stuff.
The parent is entirely correct. If you don't watch broadcast TV and don't want to pay the licence, the best thing to do is to write to the TVLA and state that, while you do own a TV it is not tuned and is only used for pre-recorded material (i.e. DVDs) or games consoles etc.
By law, when you buy a TV or any equipment that can receive broadcast TV, the shop has to inform the TVLA of your name and address. So, by subtracting a list of people who bought a licence from the list of people who own a TV, they can see who has a TV but no licence. They do try to hassle you, but you just need to be firm with them. Tell them "no" once, and then ignore them.
What it boils down to is that they will only take you to court if they think they can win, and unless they have proof you are watching broadcast TV they won't. Presumably, the same would apply to internet licencing. Unless they can prove you are watching streaming media...
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Basically it is a household tariff (still stupid enough). Even if you have a whole wall of TV sets and dozends of computers you just have to pay once. I think they also have changed it in the meantime that the same applies for each site of a company (hooray for lobyyism in that case). However, if you are self-employed you have to pay once for your private stuff, once for business use and once for the radio in your business-used car. Now how stupid is that ?
The term used for justification is Grundversorgung (basic supply with news) really pisses me of. The first thought is, why should I pay for something, regardless wether I'm using it or not. Exspecially cable-modem users will be ridiculed (who will open the phone-line for 1 Euro/hour to listen to internet-radio?).
Basic supply with news only is required because of possible catastrophic event. But this fee should be paid by every citizen equally, because the emergency plans include sending around police cars with megaphones. Why is there no GEZ-fee on using megaphones??? Ok, better don't remind them. Where I'm getting my day-to-day news from on the other hand, should be my decision.
An internet connection is not necessarily a channel for "Grundversorgung" (what about washing machines with internet connection?). You have to pay already only if it is possible for you to access these channels (which are not only news like tagesschau.de but also come with a lot of other crap no sane person would pay for and which is not accessibly by internet anyway). The GEZ is extending its mandate way beyond basic supply with news and expects to get paid for it by mandatory fees. No thanks!
Effectively, in Germany, there are a couple of country-wide TV channels and then a channel per state. Unlike the UK where the regional specific production, in most cases is limited to a news show or two sharing a slot in a common national channel, the German system has almost completely different programming, sharing only the national news. That costs. The thing is that on my cable, I get most regional TV (WDR,SW3, etc)as well as my own (HR3) so I do get more choice.
See my journal, I write things there
In fact it is important to note that the license is covering Radio,TV,PC usage in a housenhold. If you are a pair living together but not married or registered as a pair, you will usually have to pay at least twice as two housenholds.
Then, the radios that are being taken to work should be licensed extra. Nowadays, when almost every modern mobile phone has an ability to receive TV programs, those should be licensed extra. Also the car radios would incur additional license fees this way or another.
Let's say you are a student and financially independent, but still live with your parents (and were using their TV or radios), you will then also have to pay for your Laptop.
A company has to pay for every location it has PC's installed. Say, you are a insurance broker, living with a partner but not married yet, having a separate office, and a car-radio. Your partner would be financially independent from you, but I calculate the costs for you two combined. You would also have a clerk, doing backoffice for you on your laptop on a separate location (e.g. at his home).
Here is a rough calculation of what you family have to pay every month
1. TV at home 17Eur
2. Radio in your partner's car 5EUR
3. Radio in your mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
4. Radio in your partner's mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
5. PC at work 5EUR (as it is registered on your company)
6. Your clerk's PC 5EUR
something like 40-60 EUR in month - 600EUR a year, and that from your after-tax income!
My comment to the new law itself is that they just have to secure the source of income for their public broadcasting production for the times when people will start to throw away broadcasting TV's. Just this year Deutsche Telekom is rolling out an ip-based Triple-Play network, making usual broadcasting televsion in Germany obsolete. Almost every house in Germay has a last mile connection from Deutsche Telekom.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
It is 6 Euro now. But it will triple to the TV fee soon enough. I don't own a TV set or Radio. I listen to some internet music stations from live365.com. And still, I will now be required to pay. Furthermore. businesses have to pay for each of their stores. Take the big consumer chains. ALDI, Lidl, REWE. They have thousands of stores. Also anyone self-employed has to pay twice now.
The signal from the internal oscillators within the TV demodulator unit propagate back to the aerial and are then transmitted. It's possible to detect this signal and determine if somebody's watching TV.
Actually, detecting TV receivers is simple. Your TV uses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersonic_heterodine _receiver to filter TV signals. Heterodine frequency is fixed, so it's pretty easy to pick it up.
Actually, there's even ITU standard for it, but I may be wrong. There's definetely a GOST (State Standard) for it in Russia (I'm Russian).
Even worse. If you work at home and you have a special room where you work that room counts as a separate place (because workplace \neq home, even if workplace \in home) so you have to pay twice if you have a TV in your living room and a computer in your work room. I think two work rooms still count as one separate place, though.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
This all conforms to the principle of a multitude of small taxes. Ask any regular European how much thay pay in taxes and they will say "about 30%". In actual fact, for the average citizen, it's about 80%, if you include all these other taxes and automobile-related taxes.
I think the last time I saw a calculation of how much of your money goes into taxes in Germany it was something like 55%. That was back when the VAT was at 15%, however. It is currently being raised from 16% to 20%.
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
You need a licence if you have any kit that is *capable* of receiving a TV broadcast signal,
This is a myth that TVL allow to propergate. They used to have an entry on their website saying that's you don't need to to watch offair DVDs/VHS.
I suugest you read the relevent laws, but you can also look at the mostly-accurate guardian article here
You need a licence irrespective if you want to watch live television. If you have equipment capable of receiving TV signals and its tuned in you will are required to pay. If you only watch DVDs at home then you are not required to pay. However TV Licensing (TVL) will expect your television not to display BBC1 or any other channels when they come round and turn it on and may question why you have an aerial on the roof. "If you watch live TV on any device, you need to be covered by a valid licence," it says.
Screw the FSM - Real geeks believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn
Because the administration of such a system is taking a lot of money it was decided to have the broadcasters paid from general taxation.
This has been a great success in lowering the cost for the government and less trouble for the TV owners.
The fact that now people without a TV or radio are paying is true but hardly relevant as they are so few of them.
And of course taxation pays other ventures that are not used by all.
About the old licensing system, it was licensed based on the presence of a HF detector so a video monitor or audio amplifier was not taxable.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
So what in hell are those old geezers doing with all that dough?
For example, they run the hospital where I was born. Or the the kindergarten where I went to as a kid.
In fact, they run many services of social importance.
They also have a lot of old buildings to maintain (which are often considered as culturally and historically important).
I agree that the system of the state collecting taxes from members of a church for their church is a bit strange. However, in practice, I think that most people who somehow are attached to the religious groups think that these groups are doing all in all reasonable stuff with the money. And if somebody does not like the church, there is an easy way out: you only have to leave the church organisation, and you don't pay taxes any more.
And also:
It's not 8 or 9 percent of the taxable income, it's 8 or 9 percent of the income tax you pay. And there is usually a cap for people with high income.