If Not America, Then Where?

Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"

Comments

I know, it's old fashioned and out of date

[Hawthorne01]

But I'm in America by choice, and will be for a loooooong time. I friggin' love it here, warts and all. Lived in Latin America, raised in Canada, and there's no place I'd rather be.

Oddly enough - Austria

[Salvance]

I love America, and don't want to leave; however, I see multiple reasons why I may be 'forced' to leave: the impact of our massive debt on the future economy, the shift to a stronger executive branch (and what this might yield), and the impact of a swelling unsupported lower/debtor class. If in a situation where I felt I had no other options, I'd move to Vienna, Austria. Every time I've been there, I've been enthralled by the people, the cleanliness, the relatively hands-off government (at least compared to some European and particularly Scandinavian countries), the wealth of job opportunities, the high proportion of English speakers, and the area's focus on health and fitness. It has always seemed like a home away from home.

Costa Rica

[budword]

Costa Rica. They don't hate Americans. You can drink the water (if you were wondering).Great weather. No army. Easy immigration. Democracy. Universal health care. I'm leaving because I was arrested and held in jail for 2 days for not having my dogs licensed in a town they didn't live in. Yes, you read that right. I had already been convicted of not having my dogs licensed, with no notice even of any infraction, much less a trial. Had no right to appear before a judge, or even call a lawyer. That's for people who haven't already been convicted. Welcome to the law for and by bored small town cops. Northern Wisconsin, for any who were wondering.

Re:The Netherlands

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple process? Hahahahahaha... I've lived in this cesspit called the Netherlands for almost 10 years. It is if anything an example of exactly how not to run an immigration system.

Yes you can come here if you find a company willing to hire you for a wage that exceeds 43K Euro - not that hard to do if you're any kind of educated professional... but you also walk into an immigration system that is broken beyond anything you can imagine. It's is simply legislated stupidity run by a government minister who hates foreigners with a passion not seen for decades.

If you have the misfortune of owning a passport from a non-EU county other than Canada, The USA, New Zealand, Australia or Japan, then you MUST learn Dutch before you enter the country, you cannot bring your spouse or children unless they also learn Dutch prior to entering the country (no learning Dutch after you arrive is not good enough). After you arrive you must go through an integration course (you're generally exempt if you're from one of the "good' countries listed above) where they teach you all the good things about the Dutch way of life.. like how to flush a toilet (yes they taught me that useful skill), how many wheels a car has (yes that was in my course)... how great and glorious the Dutch people are... how superior they are compared to everyone else... you have to answer important questions like... "what are Dutch men best known for?" and the correct answer being "their trustworthiness"

Trust me... the Netherlands is NOT worth the hassle. Do yourself a favor and go anywhere else in the world but the Netherlands.

I'm leaving here as soon as I can. I'm tired of not being able to have my family live in the same damn country as me. I'm tired of being told by this same Immigration office that if I want to live with my wife, I should just leave the country - and they tell that to their own citizens too.. not just foreigners. I have a close friend who is native Dutch and married to an African woman. The IND here told him there was no chance at all that his wife of 5 years would ever be able to join him here and that he should simply leave the country of his birth if he wanted to be with his wife, or divorce her and marry a good Dutch woman like he should have done in the first place. Yup, the IND here did tell him that... I've read the letter they sent him.

Oh, and yes you can apply for citizenship in the Netherlands but ONLY if you agree to give up your other citizenship. Anyone who tells you otherwise (that it's possible to keep your birth country citizenship) hasn't actually tried to do it recently. Used to be the case that you could retain dual citizenship, but now they won't issue the Dutch citizenship unless you've provided proof that you've legally renounced your previous citizenship. The danger here being... that for 12 years after gaining your Dutch citizenship, the IND can revoke your Dutch citizenship for any reason, and without a court order... so for 12 years your citizenship is at the mercy and whim of the IND... and they have proven that they can and will arbitrarily revoke citizenships of people leaving them stateless for no reason at all.

Don't come to the Netherlands except on vacation, and even then do yourself a favor and give it a miss... go somewhere more interesting.

Barcelona, Spain

[remolacha]

I came to Barcelona because I met a Catalan woman who was studying in the US. That was in 2000. As with anywhere, there are pros and cons. I've also picked up some different perspectives on the US living outside of it. To sum up:

living in Barcelona: pros

1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.

2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth .79 euro cents.

3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.

3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.

cons:

1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.

2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.

on living outside of the US:

one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.

you also see a lot of things in press that

France!

[dmayle]

I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.

I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).

In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.

For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.

For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.

Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.

If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.

Re:France!

[Jesrad]

In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government.

For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like

Surely you must be living in a parallel-universe France, instead of the one I've been living in for a quarter century. Defiance regarding the state is rampant, there are whole cities out of reach of the police power, people distrust the government with a passion. In fact being critical of the executive powers is the national sport here. Yet there is a constant obsession with politics, which I think is symptomatic of a country fast sinking into fascism (be it of the collectivist or corporatist kind), where people are paralysed into believing salvation can only come from the very same people they loathe and curse at everyday. It's simply not healthy at all, it's like a pervasive mental disease that permeates everything, from friendships to work relations and even down to simple shopping interactions.

And there also is a fact that anyone considering moving to France should consider: french people are emigrating fast, at a rate of 100,000 to 200,000 each year, and it has been going like this for years already (2+ million people left the country, compare this with Cuba). This is the most massive exodus this country has ever known since the French Revolution ! There are reasons behind this continuous stream of people, reasons for fleeing this country.

Re:The Netherlands

[Jaden42]

I actually am an American living in the Netherlands. I didn't take the time to read the other posts (sorry!) to see if someone else had posted this information but I thought I'd do it anyway since I have a personal interest.

I moved here about 6 months ago with the help of the company I work for. Because of my salary I was allowed to get what is called a "Knowledge Migrant" (kennismigrant) visa. This is a special "fast track" visa that is granted to people who make over 45,000 euros if they are over 30 or 32,600 euros if you under under 30. It allows me to bypass most processes for migration (no requirement for degrees, language classes, etc) but does NOT allow me access to the public health or pension system. Because I was able to follow the kennismigrant procecss, it was fairly simple to get settled in. Also, since I will likely be subject to the 30% tax ruling (an beneficial ruling) I will be able to swap my US drivers license for a Dutch one without taking any tests or classes. Being that Dutch driving classes can run into the 1000s of euros this is a good thing.

Life in the Netherlands is nice and the country is great. They say that 80-90% of the Dutch people speak English which I find to be accurate. I am always able to get around with English and the few Dutch words I know. I am currently enrolled in classes to learn Dutch, but it's an incredibly difficult language because the two languages I already speak fluently (English and Spanish) have virtually no relationship to Dutch besides some common sounding words. The society here is fairly modern and you can get everything you need at any time, except Sunday. Everything is closed on Sundays except for restaurants, which generally open around 4 in the afternoon.

I found this article of particular interest because often time, especially from Americans, I hear things like "This country is stupid and I'd love to leave". After living in a few different countries now, I can honestly say I'd rather live no where else permanently but the US. The Netherlands and the the UK (the other place I spent considerable time) are great places, but it's not home. Life in other countries is very inconvenient (yes, I know, an American comment) and the people are generally much more orderly and nicer in the US. This may seem like a shock to people in the US (and a shock to people outside the US too) but I truly believe that is how it is. Simple things like standing in a line to wait for services or having a quick meal do not exist here. I know that for some people that is a charm, but for me it's an annoyance.

As a final note, I recently sent my entire team (10 Dutch guys) back to the US for training on our product. It was in the SF Bay Area and they all had a great time. The weather was perfect, the people were nice, and they all particular enjoyed Starbucks (the Dutch are huge coffee drinkers). When they all came back, each and every one of them pointedly asked me why the hell I would move here and leave San Francisco. It was nice validation for me and the US and makes me even more anixous to one day return.

I hope this post has given some insight to some people. Until you have truly lived somewhere else you won't understand how lucky we are in the US. Simply visiting a country on vacation does not give you the proper insight. You really need to experience daily life in other parts of the world to understand how good you have it.

Re:Don't come to Australia

[MikShapi]

US vs Australia? Let's have a go.

1. Australia is by-large not religious (I'm not talking about the institutions. I'm talking about the people). Most of the issues that spark heated public debate in the US because of their religious ("""ethical""") implications are non-issues to start with here or minor issues at best. Not because people don't care but simply because religious nutcases don't have anything that even comes close to their US lobby. Oh, and our president doesn't do things because God told him to.

2. The mentality is not a complete (at least to the limited extent of my experience from living in the US and.. well.. TV), utter shitpile. Apologies to whomever lives in the pockets of educated and civilized society in the US (which I acknoledge exist yet are somehow not nearly influential enough when it comes to interacting with the outside world). In Australia, the vast majority of people, both the ones on TV and the ones you meet, don't live in this "my-business-is-none-of-your-business" and "that's-not-my-problem" mindset.

3. Australians don't get forcefed with propaganda dumbing them down and telling them who is good, who is bad and what to think (I think Americans call this "Fox News") and don't view the world through a bipolar "everything is either black or white" oversimplified good-vs-evil prism.

4. While the government is often accused of having its tongue too deep up the royal American Hiney, the government gets things done, and lining up what the country has accomplished and what services (social, educational etc) it provides its citizens - up against any other country you care to name, Australia is world-class and in the lead. The vast majority of things that get done here get done right, and when you ask something along "why did the government do that, there is always a simple and logical solution behind it. Things just make sense. Our policies are made listening to scientists, not celebrities or industry cartels (most of the time, at least).

5. Most aussies don't winge about problems. They sort them.

6. The only two things Australians worship religiously is nature and quality recreation.

7. We don't block vegemite imports (bad, bad folate! vit B12 makes you stupid!) after they make films like "Supersize me!" about what we do consider legal (and by the same coin, not bad for you I guess) to import and/or sell as food. Anyone for an extra-fat supersize cheeseburger and a 5-gallon coke?

Expensive? somewhat. It's the price one pays for living in modern society.

Australian mentality is all the good traits of the American mentality pooled in with all the good traits of some European ones, minus most of the bad stuff of either side. That alone is worth spending one's life here.

Ok. I'm done. Mod me to hell, American fanboys!

Re:Visa, borders, etc.

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!

Absolutely. The passport is nothing more than the evolution of the Lord's Chit, from back when most people were serfs/slaves/property and needed their lord/master's permission to leave his demesne.

Every international criminal on earth has a valid passport. Their only purpose is make governments feel like they are still our lords and benefactors.

Italy vs. Norway

[orzetto]

I thought about moving to Italy once.

Hi there! I am an Italian who never worked in Italy and moved out as soon as I finished education. Almost thirty and not a day unemployed yet :-)

Then I found out they pay almost 50% income tax. On top of that, there is a 20% VAT on most items. On top of that, gasoline was almost $5 per gallon (a few years ago...almost certainly more now).

Though you will hear Giovanni Birramedia ("Joe Sixpack") and populist politicians complain about high taxes, those are quite standard rates in Europe. Except for the 50% which is simply untrue (though it is a popular stereotype, you might have heard it said). Gas is currently at about 1.2 euros/litre. Anyway, I will take high taxes over social inequality any day: a bit because of I have a sense of justice, a bit because I do not like getting mugged.

The high taxes were there to support their social services.

Well, it's no news there is a high and endemic level of corruption in Italian politics. Again, every country has the politicians it deserves, and the current Zeitgeist is such that a former minister can be sentenced to six years in jail for heavy corruption charges (Cesare Previti was sentenced for having basically bought the whole courthouse in Rome) and half the population will still believe that it is a persecution of communist judges. Tolerance for corruption is so high that we have boss and vice-boss of the military secret service under investigation for kidnapping and torture, and no one seems to care. I mean, no one has actually asked them to resign.

Virtually no concept of sexual harassment or workplace misconduct.

That surprises me. Either you got a wrong impression, or the situation in the US must be similar to the jus primæ noctis. The lower layers of society (illegal aliens and such) are regularly mistreated at the level of downright slavery. I suppose it depends a lot on the branch you work in.

Want a painkiller for your broken leg? Tough.

That has something to do with catholicism—you have to achieve sanctity through pain. That's not really what the doc is thinking, but just because it is unusual to give painkillers doctors are not used to that. This has been subject of debate in recent years, so maybe it has improved.

Europe sucks if you actually want to make something of yourself through hard work.

Italy sucks for that. If you want to be successful in Italy you must play much more politics at work and in the larger sense than in other countries, and you must be "blackmailable": the system rejects noncorrupted, as the system is built on a gigantic Mexican standoff where everybody must be able to trash anybody else in a sort of mutual-assured-destruction way. That's what comes out of endemic corruption. Of course there are bunches of honest people, but they are far away from power and kept there.

Now, I live in Norway. The main disadvantage I have found is that locals always talk their dialect rather than standard Norwegian, which is kind of irritating. Of course, you get that if this is the main problem I could find, there aren't really that many. The Norwegian tax level is sometimes indicated as the highest in the world, but I never paid more than 25% of direct tax (income tax, social security, fortune tax and so on). VAT is high (25%) and so are food prices because of protectionism (for some reason Norwegian think of themselves as a people historically of farmers, instead of pirates (Vikings) in the past and oil exporters (North Sea) now. Wages are fairly high (especially for Italian standards: a PhD student turns in over 2,300 euros/month. That's

Vote

[kevin lyda]

If you do leave, vote: http://www.votefromabroad.org/

Re:The Netherlands

[dajak]

Which European country has 70% income taxes!?

Not the Netherlands, but we used to have it. Tax brackets, with all social security
payments (unemployment, disability, pension arrangement, widow and orphan pension
arrangement, child rearing benefit, collective health insurance for disproportionate
risks) included, are:

0 to 16,893 = 33.55% (15,65% for 65+)
16,893 to 30,357 = 40.50% (22,60% for 65+)
30,357 to 51,762 = 42.00%
51,762 and up = 52.00%

Interest paid on mortgage loans is deducted from your income first (people who rent
a home get a benefit dependent on taxable income, and profit from very generous
government price controls). And from the resulting amount you subtract 1895.

This results in an effective tax pressure of 9.9% on income and profits, compared to
10.9% in the US and 14% EU 15 average (and in all of them it is the rich and the
very poor that pay very little at the expense of the middle incomes).

The real extortion is in consumption taxes, for instance fuel, resulting in 38.8%
of GDP as tax revenue (compared to US 25.4% and EU 15 40.6%). People in the US on
average spend nearly 10% of GDP more on privately financed health care, and need
more additional insurance to have a similar level of protection against risks.
When you factor this out, the real difference between most western countries is
within a 3% of GDP margin.

Recently moved to Sweden

[jrl]

I owned an operated a small company out of Orange County California for a number of years before recently having my company purchased by a Swedish firm in the same field. I've been here for about 6 months now and am VERY happy for the change of pace. The taxes are higher here, but they actually do a lot to help the people. There are fewer extremely rich folk, but there are also fewer poor people. There is a happy medium where everyone seems to have enough to be happy.

Sweden so far seems like one of the best places I could have ended up after leaving America. We'll see if I still feel that way after 5+ years :)

Perspective of a Muslim

[mapkinase]

As a Muslim, I would definitely prefer to live in a Shari'a country. The problem is that there is none in the whole world.

Paradoxically, the religious rights of Muslims in USA are more protected than in many Muslim countries.

Your Muslim sister can freely wear headcover, veil or burqa anywhere in US, while this right is officially denied in Turkey (schools, parliament) and Tunisia (all public places). In fact, in Tunisia, a policeman might ask her to remove her headcover on the street and make her sign affidavit that she will never where it again.

Your Muslim brother can grow a beard of whatever length (at some point he might be confused with a ZZ top fan), while this right is unofficially denied in Uzbekistan and many other Muslim countries.

Muslim organizations that are banned in Muslim countries such as Egypt, can operate freely in US.

As a Muslim you can read, watch, listen to any Islamic literature, video or CD (a book abd-ul-Wahhab - no problem, Hizb-ut-Tahrir booklet - no problem), while in almost all Central Asia post-Soviet republics you would likely to be targeted by police if they found out that you own this literature.

I am quite often called a Wahhabi, an extremist, a fundamentalist, and generally very-very-very bad person. By whom? In 100% cases - by people who call themselves Muslims. I was never called or referred to as such by my fellow Americans.

There are many bad things that US is doing now to Muslims, like, eh, killing them, for example (Muslims out of the country), by thousands, harassing them in the airports, jailing them for life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong people (inside the country), referring to them in general (not to confuse with personal attitudes of Americans) as bad people of various flavours (fascists, etc.), supporting dictatorships. On the moral level this poses really tough questions of whether Muslims can live in US and pay taxes.

At this moment I feel like an old Jew from Odessa, who was given freedom of travelling in the dawn of post-Soviet times, went to the travel agency and after incessant queries about wide range of possibilities to travel to different countries picked by rotating the globe model, asked: "Do you have another globe?".

But that is ok. It does not really matter where a Muslim lives as long as he can practice his religion. This world is just a test anyway. My real nationality is Paradise (Muslims believe that all people's souls originated from Paradise), and THAT nationality I would definitely would not like to lose.

The Netherlands- MUCH better reasons!

[meburke]

That page is full of half-truths and poor statistics.

I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. There are numerous reasons not to indulge, and I found them all when I used over 20 years ago. False anti-drug propaganda is not necessary in the light of the real reasons for not using drugs.

However, the arguments for not using drugs do not support the case for making war on drugs, which is an entirely different issue. IMO, the consequences of our drug war far outweigh the harm caused by what would be legal drug use.

A couple of factoids (not sufficient for decision-making): The UK had almost NO drug-related crime when drugs were available from the National Health Service. Since Thatcher joined Reagan's War on Drugs, the incidence of of violent drug-related crime has shot up astronomically. http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/drugwa r.html

I heard a lecture by an economist at Rice University (I forget his name), and he claimed that if we stopped our War on Drugs, the price of a hit of crack would drop to about the price of a couple of aspirin. (His argument was that with costs so small, violence and theft would not be worth the risks.)

Now that I've said that, remember that the original question was,"Where would you go?" Drug availability should not be the deciding factor.

At this time, the USA is still a slightly better place to live than almost anyplace in the World, especially eonomically. It is deteriorating, but it is still better. According to the "Pocket World in Figures" (2003 is my latest), only the citizens of Luxembourg have more purchasing power than the average US citizen. Our purchasing power is higher than Japan, Germany, France, England and Canada. I correspond every day with friends who live in Sweden and Norway. They all love it, but it's only a good place to live; not to make money. Things are scarce, money is scarcer. (They have incomes of approximately $3000/mo USD, and this is GOOD income in Sweden! But it buys a lot less than the USA.) This seems to be true of Denmark, also. A friend of mine (Chinese-American with law offices in Houston, Singapore and Rotterdam) says that taxes in the Netherlands take about 75% her income there, prices are high, and services are slow. A friend of mine in Italy said it took her 6 months to get a dial-up internet connection in Rome two years ago, and it costs 4 times what she'd pay in the States. (She met a lot of nice friends in internet cafes, though.)

Although the Pocket World in Figures somehow calculated that Canada has the highest quality of life (the US second), I have relatives in Regina who had to come to the US for heart surgery because they couldn't get it in Canada; they were too old. Even if you are young enough, it may take 3 months or more to get a bypass or heart transplant.

I have friends who live in Japan and teach English (earn about $50,000/yr USD), and one who is a CPA working for an American firm, and they all say that the money goes a lot further in Japan, but most Japanese don't earn proportionally equivalent incomes.

It will change shortly: Those of us who are baby boomers will be retiring shortly. Social Security and Medicare represent about $50 TRILLION dollars of unfunded liabilities. Figure about $250,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the USA, or about $1,000,000 per household of 4. (These liabilities are reported off-balance-sheet. If the US Government was Enron, Congress would go to jail.) The only way to fund these liabilities will be to raise taxes and create inflation, because it is such a huge amount of the GDP. Since most retirement funds are in the stock market, withdrawals will probably cause the stock market to decline rapidly and deeply. The repercussions will be felt all over the world, and places that might seem a great place to live today will not be so attractive when they can no longer sell their stuff to the USA and the USA is no longer a good place to invest. We

War on Drugs - the American example

[MECC]

The 'war' on drugs best illustrates how the US government works. One group of governmental entities confiscates illegal drugs, and another, the CIA, imports them. At one point in time, the CIA (cocain importing agency) was smuggling 21 tons of cocain into the USA per year. This during the administration of George Bush Sr., who supported/declared 'war' on drugs to the public. Now his kid, not nearly as smart as he is, is making a mess of Iraq the the USA will need to spend the next 15 years cleaning up and all but publicly soiling his shorts to the rest of the world.

Right now, the USA is a good place to live, economically speaking. That's because most people work hard as dogs (most, not all). As the population ages and declines (we're all too busy to reproduce and can't afford it anyway), how exactly can a government turned against itself and run by a bunch of hippie neo-cons help a situation like that? The fall of the roman empire comes to mind.

I Used to Want to Leave

[ReadParse]

When I was younger (late teens), I had feelings about leaving the country to live in Europe or somewhere. Then I joined the Air Force and had the good fortune to visit 14 countries and to live in one of them for 3 years. Nothing made this American prouder of his own country than visiting others. I'll take America, thanks.

Moderate me as patriotic troll, I guess.

Re:The Netherlands

[albyrne5]

Couple of quick points.

I'm an Irishman living here 2.5 years. The missing out on the 30% ruling must have really kick you in the nads, I am still on it and I pay 28% of my gross (~euro180k) on tax. (It's actually closer to 35% until you factor in the mortgage-interest refund).

Having lived in Dublin most of my life, and Porto, Portugal for 6 months, and London for 6 months I can say that traffic here is non-existent compared to the other places! I bicyle 15k each-way to work everyday unless it's a lightning storm or I'm diabolically hungover, and I find the public-transport is cheaper than Dublin.

I absolutely love the vibe in Amsterdam, and the city certainly FEELS a lot safer than Dublin, except perhaps in the Red Light District, but I only go there to show visitors around.

I'm making slow progress at learning Dutch, but in general most people are receptive to my attempts. For me, and of course it's a personal thing, I cannot see any downside to living here, and I think the whole Muslim issue is being blown out of proportion. Things in Northern Ireland were 1000 times worse for 30 years solid and that never led to WWIII or whatever the right-wing nuts are predicting will happen here.

Why to move

[mhollis]

I very quickly summarized the commentary here on why one would move from the US to several flamewars based on a lack of understanding of the culture in various non-US countries to arguments about tax burdens and arguments about what constitutes an addictive drug.

These are side-issues.

The reson one might be interested in leaving the US relates to something that my father shocked me by saying just some weeks ago.

He referred to the current administration in the US, along with their supporters in Congress at fascists.

Now, I respect my father. I'm not just out of his house and I'm not still reacting to the "awful way he treated me" when I "turned insane" shortly after puberty. My father has consistently earned my respect by tending to be right and by letting go of a lot of his own personal garbage. I also know that he lived through a time in which fascism was considered a viable political system in three countries in Europe -- with other countries admiring the "benefits" of a totalitarian regime that gives itself a pass for criminal activity. This is a serious and very shocking statement from a man who watched as the entire world fought against fascism and managed to win.

The US government is fascist due to several factors:

The Military Commissions Act of 2006(PDF Alert), which was signed by Bush on October 17, 2006 suspends the writ of Habeus Corpus in a time that is definitely not a national emergency.

This preserves the "Law-Free Zone" set up in Guantanimo. These detainees are kept in isolation from US Courts who, if there is adequate proof would be all too happy to confirm that these people are dangerous. Camp X-Ray also serves as a zone where the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War may be utterly ignored. We broke off relations with North Vietnam (and later, Vietnam) due to their treatment of US prisoners in a manner that ignored the Geneva Conventions.

The act also pardons everyone and anyone for all acts that violate the Geneva Conventions, including the procedure of Extraordinary Rendition and backdates that exemption from prosecution to September 11th, 2001.

The President and his Executive Branch are given full reign in defining what an "enemy combatant" is. I recall that Hitler regarded Jewish persons within Germany and the territories acquired by Germany, as well as allied countries as enemies of the state. Also, anyone giving material aid to any enemy was branded with the same. There was no Habeus Corpus in Germany and the courts were puppets of the state.

What I'm saying here is that we have a very serious situation in the US where civil rights have been nullified by a political party that considers self-examination wrong and unpatriotic (there have been no committees in either the House of Representatives or the Senate to examine the conduct of the "war on terror") and are fully prepared to negate the entire Bill of Rights in order to maintain their grip on political power.

Many Americans aren't aware of how their rights have been suspended. Those who are find it hard to continue to live here.

Countries who honor the rights of their citizens and who do not give their executive branch the right to run roughshod over the rights of minorities and persons who hold political beliefs that may differ may look a lot better than the US today for a citizen concerned with our present government.

Re:The Netherlands

[spun]

Puritans have a strong ethic of moderation. Modern capitalism requires a different ethic, one of conspicuous consumption, in order for the rich to make lots of money. In order to reconcile the basic ethos of the country with the needs of the ultra rich to have herds of sheep-like consumers purchasing everything in sight, certain things or activities need to be defined as automatically showing overconsumption. Therefore, as long as people with this protestant ethic are not doing the prescribed things, they are practicing moderation and can feel good about themselves. Therefore, buying loads of useless crap is not overconsumption, but smoking even one joint is.