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If Not America, Then Where?
Wellington Grey asks: "Often during our heated political discussions on slashdot, several people will mention their desire to leave the country. As an American living in England, which sees much the same problems as the US, I often wonder where these Americans would go. So, I pose two questions for the restless: 1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?"
The Netherlands. The fact that I couldn't become a citizen and I can't speak the language stops me. Oh yeah, plus I like America still. :-)
Yay, I have a sig.
I always kinda liked the idea that I get to live in the future just by staying alive.
Infuriate left and right
Warm beach with girls. Money.
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Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
But I'm in America by choice, and will be for a loooooong time. I friggin' love it here, warts and all. Lived in Latin America, raised in Canada, and there's no place I'd rather be.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
It's obviously best to simply give up and leave, rather than actually stand up and do something about changing your country.
Van Allen Radiation Belt
In almost every case it comes down to visas and border controls that stop humans freely moving around their planet. On the surface it looks like a good idea, but it's absolutely ridiculous that a human shouldn't be able to freely roam the public spaces of their own planet!
:)
I'd rather go live out in the nowhereness of Canada or Australia or something and get out of the way, but there's no hope for any of that in the near future as countries have lots of quirky requirements, laws, and rules for gaining entry
I love America, and don't want to leave; however, I see multiple reasons why I may be 'forced' to leave: the impact of our massive debt on the future economy, the shift to a stronger executive branch (and what this might yield), and the impact of a swelling unsupported lower/debtor class. If in a situation where I felt I had no other options, I'd move to Vienna, Austria. Every time I've been there, I've been enthralled by the people, the cleanliness, the relatively hands-off government (at least compared to some European and particularly Scandinavian countries), the wealth of job opportunities, the high proportion of English speakers, and the area's focus on health and fitness. It has always seemed like a home away from home.
Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
Living just to the north of much of the United States, I often offer Stateside friends crash space in my basement in the event that things go completely pear-shaped where they live. Sure, we could be violently annexed in a depressingly short amount of time (and our supplies of uranium, oil, fresh water and lumber might make us a delectable target), but it's a relatively short trip. Besides, beyond Canadian Bacon, there hasn't really been any real effort to add us to the Axis of Evil.
If it were not for the money, language, and responsibility issues, I'd move to a Scandanavian country in a heartbeat.
As it is, I believe that America is exporting its culture at an incredible rate, and the best way to stop what I see as an unbelievably bad world situation is by attempting to modify it from within the States. I'm not doing a great job, but just being here and dissenting my little piece has more of an impact than living outside the country and bitching to other people that aren't there about how much my country sucks.
I lived overseas, and found that there were a few things true about me personally - 1) wherever I went, I was the same person. Ergo, I was pissed off and unhappy because that's what I started out as. I've attempted to change that. 2) wherever I went, I was followed by the influence of the things I had left the country to avoid, one way or another. Thus I am back here to attempt to modify the things about both me and the world around me that irked me so much when I was not living in the States. I don't know if I'll manage to change the world enough to make any sort of difference should I leave again, but by the time I can afford to leave again for any extended period of time, I will be able to say that I'm at least trying to alleviate certain negative influential factors that result from our social structure.
My little site.
To immigrate to canada you must speak french, eat poutine and KD, and watch HNIC. It snows all year long and sorry we're full!
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
Amsterdam and you know damn well why.
We do everything America does, only we do a worse job, less efficiently, and with none of the individual rights in our Constitution* that you enjoy in the United States which allow the courts to pull the executive and congress back into line every now and then.** Although we have no president or equivalent, our parliament is a virtual dictatorship at present and crossing the floor on the basis of principle is almost entirely unheard of and considered to be little better than treason. We lack media diversity, and general awareness of political and human rights issues is virtually non-existent in the wider populace even by US standards.
In addition we are extremely poorly placed in relation to the most likely theatre of any future world war, and we have large quantities of uranium and natural gas which makes us an important strategic target.
* disclaimer, before someone who knows about Australian law attacks - we arguably have freedom of religion and a right to vote, and a limited right to freedom of 'political' speech, but all can be infringed on by federal laws with a legitimate other purpose
** yeah yeah, I know how politicised the courts are, but every now and then you DO get a decision like Hamdan in which the Supreme Court clobbers the executive for overstepping the line
Read Pynchon.
Mars.
it will take your breath away.
(No, seriously, that's the reason why NOT to go)
If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
Costa Rica. They don't hate Americans. You can drink the water (if you were wondering).Great weather. No army. Easy immigration. Democracy. Universal health care. I'm leaving because I was arrested and held in jail for 2 days for not having my dogs licensed in a town they didn't live in. Yes, you read that right. I had already been convicted of not having my dogs licensed, with no notice even of any infraction, much less a trial. Had no right to appear before a judge, or even call a lawyer. That's for people who haven't already been convicted. Welcome to the law for and by bored small town cops. Northern Wisconsin, for any who were wondering.
Because I don't want a bunch of Americans following me, and I'm leaving just a soon as I tidy up a few personal things. Adios Amigos. But hey, you could always try Australia.
Australian running a company that does C# / C++ / Java / SQL / Python / Mathematica
That's easy,
Europe! I know it's not a country, but if you actually want to live abroad (forever, or for a few years to get a taste of a different lifestyle), then the obvious answer is somewhere in Europe.
Why? Because after a couple of years (it varies country to country), you can grab a passport and become an instant protected member of the EU. Now you don't have a choice of one country, but 25, (27 in a few years, and hopefully 28 with Turkey in a few more years).
And you get a choice of countries like Sweden or Denmark (consistently ranked as the most well educated, crime free, peaceful utopias on the planet), liberal countries like Germany or Amsterdam (there is no city in the WORLD like Berlin, it is just the most alive, party party, drug liberal place on Earth, no question), economic tigers like Ireland or the newer Eastern european countries (where jobs are easy to come by and the cost of living is low), or just places where you could live off a few grand and take it easy, like Portugal or Greece.
25 countries, most of them not requiring a second language (For sure, if you move to Scandinavia it'll be you that has the lower standard of English, I moved here 3 years ago and it's embarrassing to have an inferior grasp of my mother-tongue than do the locals). In some countries like Sweden, if you have a girlfriend here you can pick up a passport in 3 years.
And of course, Countries that are not in the EU (such as Switzerland or Norway or Iceland), will still be open to you because of the Schengen agreement.
Good luck! And wherever you decide to move to, just DO IT. It doesn't mean that you never have to go home, it doesn't mean you are running away from America's problems (you can retain your American citizenship and vote from abroad), it just means at a minimum that you are exploring how life in a much more liberal society would be like, and if many more people in the USA decided to live abroad in Europe for a few years of their youth, I very much doubt the country would be experiencing the problems it is having at the moment.
1) Where would you live, if not in America and 2) What's stopping you from going?
Easy. 1) New Zealand, 2) Money (or the lack thereof).
If you think hard, probably two things are keeping people to go where they think (or know) their lives would be better (for them, since this is as much subjective as objective):
- people: family, friends, neighbors, you name it, people can become very attached to others,
- financial resources: if you have to work 10-16 hours a day for living, paying mortages, etc., schooling your kids, its not that easy to just stand up and leave.
Until the average level of living throughout the planet won't reach a certain level, most people will just be stuck to places, all their lives long, give or take a few travels.
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
I support everyones right to emigrate if they feel like they need to. Emigrés have also often been the deciding factor in overthrowing an oppressive government, in fact I'd say it's almost a prerequisite to have a strong expat community if you need to overthrow the government. These people need their freedom and ability to work, in order to help raise awareness about what is wrong with the way things are being run, and make changes. Someone being in jail for political reasons cannot really do much to change anything.
Nyhetsankaret.com -- det bÃsta av Sveriges Nyhetssido
As a Scandinavian who just visit USA occationally I guess I can tell why I hesitate to move there... From the European horizon USA looks really cool. You have the greatest companies, the greatest sports champs (except in soccer), you are the center of entertainment, modern culture and research. You have... so very much.
However, when in USA I feel that I am so far away from everything. Manhattan is the exception. In LA I have an hour in a car to anything. In Las Vegas it takes a day to get anywhere else.
So even if I am closer to many things when in USA, there are fewer things that I am really close to (walking distance). If it takes 5h or more to get there by car, the Atlantic ocean doesnt make a huge difference anyway.
It's been sixty years since we stopped invading foreign countries. Professional help needed.
I mean like, how cool is a country that made their language and alphabet using all those math symbols!!!
Disclaimer: not actually American, though I did live there from 1981 until 1988.
Not always the easiest place to live, but rewarding a lot of the time: Southern Africa. And I am not referring to "We'd like to be State 51 please, if only you'll bring back the 1980s" South Africa, I am referring to southern sub-saharan Africa.
Whether you're here on a volunteer basis or you have a 'proper job' (like myself), there is a definite need for clued-up tech people to share their knowledge, and to help pull this place out of its rut. No need to be a charity: I get a salary and everything...
And do your research: not all sub-saharan countries are corruption-plagued dictatorships. Well, no more than the US anyway ...
I came to Barcelona because I met a Catalan woman who was studying in the US. That was in 2000. As with anywhere, there are pros and cons. I've also picked up some different perspectives on the US living outside of it. To sum up:
.79 euro cents.
living in Barcelona: pros
1. the flow of time is different, slower somehow. people have more time outside of work and seem to make spending it with each other a priority. It's not that the work hours are so different, it's more of a cultural thing- work is usually not the center of one's life, or something they use to define themselves. for instance, you can get to know someone over months and never find out what they do (this may be related to con #1, see below.) most people get a month of vacation each year, plus innumerable long (3 and 4 day weekends). there's a big emphasis on getting together for long, tasty meals and laughing and drinking good wine. we lived in new york for 6 months a few years ago (ending a 1-year stay 6 months early) and I felt like I was running all the time, never had time to be with my family.
2. it's easier to be middle class. healthcare is free, education is cheap, public transit is cheap and excellent (the latter is for barcelona, not necessarily the rest of the country.) we have two little kids (9mos and 5yrs) and no car and it's not an issue. on a salary of us$60k we live well, even with the dollar worth
3. the level of education and knowledge about the world of the average person on the street is pretty high, compared to the US. people have travelled, speak at least two languages (spanish and catalan and usually bad english, and french). the public schools start earlier here (3 yrs old) and are a lot more rigorous than the public schools I went to in washington DC.
3. you are close to a wide range of different cultures, should you like exploring. if you travel the same distance from say, new york to cleveland, you can be in much of north africa, most of western europe, a bunch of eastern europe. turkey is a stone's throw away. even within spain there are seven or so regional languages and cultures that are strikingly different. western europe is slowly mixing and homogenizing due to the european union effort, but it still seems like an adventure every time I get on a train or a plane. maybe this is just because I'm not from here.
cons:
1. the work opportunities and work culture suck. education being cheap or free, you have a lot of really well educated people and not enough jobs requiring their skills. thus employers are used to paying bad salaries, paying late, not treating employees too well, etc. maybe this is a holdover from the years of dictatorship that only ended in the 70s. higher-ups generally fuck with those under them and it's not pleasant. getting a job often has more to do with whom you know or are related to, rather than what you can do (this is a cliche, but it is _really_ true here.) these negatives may be changing slowly, I'm not sure. I came on with a US company and started telecommuting about a year ago and now work for spanish firms only as a consultant, which gives me a certain amount of freedom and leverage.
2. speaking spanish isn't really enough, to really integrate you have to learn some level of catalan (the regional language in which government and local business is conducted), which is sort of like learning portuguese- similar, but still another language (not a dialect). even if it were only spanish one had to learn, it's was a part-time job for a me for a few years to get good at a language. classes, etc. Some people learn can languages faster of course.
on living outside of the US:
one thing you realize is that the US is a good place for work and earning money (if you're educated and posess certain skillsets - if you aren't, it looks like wal-mart, doesn't it?) and that the fact that you can often be evaluated for what you are able to do, rather than your connections, is damn nice.
you also see a lot of things in press that
I recommend France to anyone looking to make the plunge. It's what I did, and you really can't beat it. Good food, beautiful women, nice people.
I think that the primary differences between France and the U.S. is that the citizens actively participate in their government. There are some things I'm not entirely happy about. Police here can ask you for ID on the streets (though it's never happened to me), and speech is limited in certain ways (hate speech is not protected speech).
In spite of this, though, there isn't the feeling of distrust that exists in the U.S. with regards to the government. Something that impressed me was back during the vote for the European constitution, a book that explained the version of the constitution being voted on jumped to number one on the bestseller list during the weeks/months preceding the vote. It made me proud to be living here.
For the French, the government is THEM, and everyone gets up and shouts when there is something they don't like, You may hear jokes about the French striking, because there is often some group in the news, whether it be the postal service, trains, air traffic controllers, on strike, but I think it's a healthy sign that not only are people working for change, but there's someone on the other side listening. Most strikes are resolved in less than a week, and life goes back to normal.
For Americans looking to make the plunge, you don't need to know any French to get started, if you want to work either in Paris, or in southern France near Nice (Sophia Antipolis is a huge office/science/tech park 20 minutes outside of Nice), but it's good manners to try. When I arrived, I didn't speak a word of French, and have since learned it well enough that I work entirely in French.
Also to note, you normally have to find a French company willing to hire you before you come if you are not a student. However, it's not too hard to find American or International companies who will hire you in the U.S. (pay you in dollars) to work in France.
If you want to date the locals, you will have to learn French. However, as long as your accent isn't too horrific, it's considered cute, and just as American women go gaga when French men say "enchanté" (nice to meet you, or literally enchanted), French women seem to go gaga over the phrase "my pleasure" when used to demur after having done something nice.
I'm sorry, but look around what your choices are:
1) Americanized countries (eg: England, Australia) : Same crap, different accent = Might as well live in the USA
2) Countries which hate America (eg: Middle East, France and most of Europe, Brazil, even Canada....). They dont want you, and will make your life miserable.
3) Third world countries (Africa, part of Asia,
4) Developed Asian countries (Japan, Taiwan, HK...) : You cant take the cultural change...
5) Sealand : Good luck getting a visa.
6) Tropical paradise: You dont have enough money to retire there...
Most of what you say is true, but none of it really addresses my post. I'm well aware that socialism provides better average economic circumstances in return for less economic freedom. That is really the whole point of socialism, because it stems from a philosophy that tips the valuation scale towards socioeconomic safety as opposed to socioeconomic freedom.
My point was that many Americans do not value wealth so much as they place much more value on socioeconomic freedom as opposed to socioeconomic safety than the ggp and apparently you do. It's true that there are higher rates of violent crimes in many areas on the US (not where I grew up, even though it was a very poor area where everyone owned guns (all hunters)), but it's also true that, if I so choose, I can exercise far greater control over my socioeconomic standing than someone from a more socialist country.
Hi there! I am an Italian who never worked in Italy and moved out as soon as I finished education. Almost thirty and not a day unemployed yet :-)
Though you will hear Giovanni Birramedia ("Joe Sixpack") and populist politicians complain about high taxes, those are quite standard rates in Europe. Except for the 50% which is simply untrue (though it is a popular stereotype, you might have heard it said). Gas is currently at about 1.2 euros/litre. Anyway, I will take high taxes over social inequality any day: a bit because of I have a sense of justice, a bit because I do not like getting mugged.
Well, it's no news there is a high and endemic level of corruption in Italian politics. Again, every country has the politicians it deserves, and the current Zeitgeist is such that a former minister can be sentenced to six years in jail for heavy corruption charges (Cesare Previti was sentenced for having basically bought the whole courthouse in Rome) and half the population will still believe that it is a persecution of communist judges. Tolerance for corruption is so high that we have boss and vice-boss of the military secret service under investigation for kidnapping and torture, and no one seems to care. I mean, no one has actually asked them to resign.
That surprises me. Either you got a wrong impression, or the situation in the US must be similar to the jus primæ noctis. The lower layers of society (illegal aliens and such) are regularly mistreated at the level of downright slavery. I suppose it depends a lot on the branch you work in.
That has something to do with catholicism—you have to achieve sanctity through pain. That's not really what the doc is thinking, but just because it is unusual to give painkillers doctors are not used to that. This has been subject of debate in recent years, so maybe it has improved.
Italy sucks for that. If you want to be successful in Italy you must play much more politics at work and in the larger sense than in other countries, and you must be "blackmailable": the system rejects noncorrupted, as the system is built on a gigantic Mexican standoff where everybody must be able to trash anybody else in a sort of mutual-assured-destruction way. That's what comes out of endemic corruption. Of course there are bunches of honest people, but they are far away from power and kept there.
Now, I live in Norway. The main disadvantage I have found is that locals always talk their dialect rather than standard Norwegian, which is kind of irritating. Of course, you get that if this is the main problem I could find, there aren't really that many. The Norwegian tax level is sometimes indicated as the highest in the world, but I never paid more than 25% of direct tax (income tax, social security, fortune tax and so on). VAT is high (25%) and so are food prices because of protectionism (for some reason Norwegian think of themselves as a people historically of farmers, instead of pirates (Vikings) in the past and oil exporters (North Sea) now. Wages are fairly high (especially for Italian standards: a PhD student turns in over 2,300 euros/month. That's
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
We have less to do with the rest of the US than with Europe and Asia. All the worlds cusines cheap and delivered. Don't need a car so take that off your balance sheet. My part of town is covered with hot European expatriate chicks and all the cool kids from fly over country. Plus we still get to use the Constitution and Bill of Rights! (sort of-insert Bush joke) 24 hour subways so take that, London. Cheapish beer and taxis. More live music than is doable. Tall buildings and not too many crackhead bums.
Actually Rome probably has better food but that's just me. And Beijing is cool but there are always visa problems.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
In Soviet Canuckistan the Beavers eat *you*! Seriously, watchout for the little bastards. They'll smack you with their tails until you fall over and then gnaw off your limbs. You do have to be pretty drunk for them to catch you, so the real danger is when you're new to the country and only just getting used to Canadian beer, which is about 3 times stronger than kentucky bourbon. (Don't even touch Canadian whiskey. Canuckistani airlines sometimes uses the stuff as aviation fuel even though it's murder on the fuel lines.)
You'll also have to get used to keeping a continual guard up against flying hockey pucks. This skill comes naturally to native Canuckistani's who grow up dodging pucks from an early age, but newcomers to the country often suffer a few concusions before they pick up the knack of knowing when 170 grams of vulcanized rubber is rocketing towards the back of their heads at upwards of 150kph. You should also realize that global warming may soon cause a massive housing shortage in Soviet Canuckistan as temperatures rise too high for igloos to survive the summer. Truly, the country is going to become a madhouse when people's 3000sq foot 4 level split igloos with attached garages melt into ponds.
If you do still decide to emmigrate to Canada, be sure to talk to Phil from Vancouver. He can get you set up with your government issue starter snow-shovel and official toque with genuine saskatchewan sealskin bindings and special patriotic pom-pom. (very important) Be sure the pom-pom is firmly attached. If you lose it, rest assured that a mountie will spot it. (Don't even try to run. They always get their man.) Losing your pom-pom will get you exiled to newfieland, which is a fate many consdier worse than death by poutine!
Do you really pay lower taxes? By the time you add up federal, social security, unemployment, state and local taxes you are probably paying close to 50% if not more. Add to that things like health insurance, tolls, and thousands of fees that you pay for services that other countries provide for free and you may actually be worse off.
Oh I forgot to add the extra weeks of paid vacation to that mix too.
evil is as evil does
If you do leave, vote: http://www.votefromabroad.org/
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
Mexico's problem is really corruption. Massive amounts of it. I mean you may complain about the US and well the UN, but Latin America is trying to Silver Medal in the Global Corruption Olympics (Africa is the out and out Gold Medal winner.) And this creates Mexico's problem. Why do anything if corruption is just going to take away your hard work? So, you are left with two choices (a) be lazy, or (b) leave.
Although the other poster disagreed with you (calling you racist) I completely agree. People wont understand how deeply is corruption mixed in Mexican's mind. I am a Mexican and I can see it. It is when you live or visit other countries were you find out that in my country corruption has become a natural way of life.
I marked in bold the statement you wrote which has been my feeling a lot of times in ACADEMIA. The first time it happened to my mom who is a teacher at a Mexico's university, she is the founder (and was the coordinator) of the Biology career in certain University. Everything was allright when she founded the career (with the backup of the maximum authority of the university called the "Rector" in Mexico). Then as soon as this person was changed, the department director started to make things hard because he thought that my mom wanted his place. My mom would NEVER going to be department director because that purely administrative.
The other was when I was in the bachelors degree; one of my teachers was daughter of the Rector (in another university). The department was basically divided in two groups, one where the Computer Scientists were and the other where the Soft. Eng. people where (this groups is where the daughter was).
I had a lot of problems in the last years because I used to talk and meet a lot with the Comp. Sci. people. The Soft. Eng. people were trying to get some permanent positions in the department (called "plaza") and they made a very dirty war against the Comp Sci. people.
Anyway, corruption is frustrating in Mexico, but as I stated in another post, it is that way because most people have learnt to live with it and to get something from it.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Pony trekking or camping,
Or just watching TV.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
It's the country for me.
You're so near to Russia,
So far from Japan,
Quite a long way from Cairo,
Lots of miles from Vietnam.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I want to be,
Eating breakfast or dinner,
Or snack lunch in the hall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
You're so sadly neglected
And often ignored,
A poor second to Belgium,
When going abroad.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland.
Finland has it all.
Finland has it all.
God spoke to me.
When we "said we were sorry" (see parent), we didn't know just how sorry we would become.
And sorrier still if you fat techie douchebags don't get up and vote two weeks from now.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Play WoW for ten years, and it's entirely likely at the end of it you'll be able to put it down at the end of it and never touch it again.
You had me up until then.
For some, I think Norway is a good choice.
There are drawbacks.
It's not the place for those of you who love the big metropolis. Our biggest cities, Oslo, Bergen, Trondheim and Stavanger are only in the 100.000s, not in the millions.
Immigration can be tricky, unless you're married to a norwegian, from the EU, or have a desired qualification. Immigration also takes atleast 3-5 months for the paperwork (non-EU people, EU-people can come first, apply after), and you get only a 1-year work-and-stay permit which you need to renew yearly. After 3 years you get a permanent permit.
95% of the population speaks varying levels of english, most educated people speak it fluently. Nevertheless you'll be at an disadvantage until you learn the language. The language is in the same language-group as english and german though, so it's not very hard to learn. (80% of the words are recognizably similar for example)
Parts are rainy. The west-coast in autumn can be a shock (depending on where you're from). Normal rainfall in Bergen is like 2000mm/year. (less than half that in Oslo though)
Living-costs are high, especialy services are expensive. This is a result of the fact that your waitress, your hairdresser and your burgerflipper earns a decent living.
I owned an operated a small company out of Orange County California for a number of years before recently having my company purchased by a Swedish firm in the same field. I've been here for about 6 months now and am VERY happy for the change of pace. The taxes are higher here, but they actually do a lot to help the people. There are fewer extremely rich folk, but there are also fewer poor people. There is a happy medium where everyone seems to have enough to be happy.
:)
Sweden so far seems like one of the best places I could have ended up after leaving America. We'll see if I still feel that way after 5+ years
See the OECD Tax Database for lots of data (in Excel format) on comparative tax rates in various countries. The US is relatively low-tax.
This table shows top marginal tax rate, factoring in social security-type contributions if they are separate. The actual definition for the number is "The all-in (top marginal) tax rate, calculated as the additional central and sub-central government personal income tax, plus employee social security contribution, resulting from a unit increase in gross wage earnings. The all-in rate takes account of the same aspects as the combined rate, but does in addition include employee social security contributions and if they are deductible in central government taxes etc." This table is for 2005.
Hungary 69.5%
Denmark 63.0%
Belgium 59.3%
Sweden 56.6%
Finland 56.5%
Netherlands 52.0%
Poland 51.8%
Norway 51.3%
Greece 49.6%
France 48.6%
Australia 48.5%
Ireland 48.0%
Luxembourg 47.9%
Japan 47.9%
Switzerland 47.9%
Portugal 46.6%
Canada 46.4%
Spain 45.0%
Germany 44.3%
Italy 44.1%
United States 42.7%
Austria 42.7%
Turkey 41.1%
United Kingdom 41.0%
Czech Republic 40.5%
Iceland 40.2%
New Zealand 39.0%
Korea 38.2%
Slovak Republic 29.9%
Mexico 24.6%
I'm not so sure you're correct. The average federal income tax rate is, indeed, around 12%, though for working professionals it is likely closer to 14-16%, and for executives (those making 200k or more per year) it is around 25% (check the tax returns of politicians...they bounce between 21% and 26%, depending on their deductions). What isn't mentioned is that there's a 15% tax for social security and medicare. If you're a wage slave, you only see half of it, but your employer is paying the other half, and that affects your salary. Health care and other benefits do too. If you lose 30% of your "income" to taxes and benefits before the first line on your paycheck, is it really part of your taxes/salary?
Anyway, I'm not giving up on the US. It's filled with idiots, and there are "better" social support systems elsewhere, but if you're willing to take responsibility for your own future, it's the place to be. I plan on never seeing a dime from Social Security, so I invest for my retirement. I pay for my own healthcare, so I get to choose what level of care I get. I don't think the general human population can handle being on their own, or perhaps it's simply that having large social nets to fall back on makes standing by yourself seem too hard.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
As a Muslim, I would definitely prefer to live in a Shari'a country. The problem is that there is none in the whole world.
Paradoxically, the religious rights of Muslims in USA are more protected than in many Muslim countries.
Your Muslim sister can freely wear headcover, veil or burqa anywhere in US, while this right is officially denied in Turkey (schools, parliament) and Tunisia (all public places). In fact, in Tunisia, a policeman might ask her to remove her headcover on the street and make her sign affidavit that she will never where it again.
Your Muslim brother can grow a beard of whatever length (at some point he might be confused with a ZZ top fan), while this right is unofficially denied in Uzbekistan and many other Muslim countries.
Muslim organizations that are banned in Muslim countries such as Egypt, can operate freely in US.
As a Muslim you can read, watch, listen to any Islamic literature, video or CD (a book abd-ul-Wahhab - no problem, Hizb-ut-Tahrir booklet - no problem), while in almost all Central Asia post-Soviet republics you would likely to be targeted by police if they found out that you own this literature.
I am quite often called a Wahhabi, an extremist, a fundamentalist, and generally very-very-very bad person. By whom? In 100% cases - by people who call themselves Muslims. I was never called or referred to as such by my fellow Americans.
There are many bad things that US is doing now to Muslims, like, eh, killing them, for example (Muslims out of the country), by thousands, harassing them in the airports, jailing them for life for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with wrong people (inside the country), referring to them in general (not to confuse with personal attitudes of Americans) as bad people of various flavours (fascists, etc.), supporting dictatorships. On the moral level this poses really tough questions of whether Muslims can live in US and pay taxes.
At this moment I feel like an old Jew from Odessa, who was given freedom of travelling in the dawn of post-Soviet times, went to the travel agency and after incessant queries about wide range of possibilities to travel to different countries picked by rotating the globe model, asked: "Do you have another globe?".
But that is ok. It does not really matter where a Muslim lives as long as he can practice his religion. This world is just a test anyway. My real nationality is Paradise (Muslims believe that all people's souls originated from Paradise), and THAT nationality I would definitely would not like to lose.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
The U.S. Department of State is recruiting IT people RIGHT NOW
t ies/infomanage.html
to work in the Foreign Service and support the work of our diplomatic
corps at embassies and consulates overseas. The recruitment period
ends on 11/3/06 - less than 10 days from now.
Working at a US Embassy has some major perks. When you work for the
government overseas they pay all of your housing and utilities. Embassy
housing ain't like Army housing. Think mansion in the 3rd world and
downtown apartments in the first world. Cost of living pay to help
afford life in London, danger pay for Kabul or Baghdad, hardship pay
for subsaharan Africa. Uncle Sam takes care of his own.
Sure the work is boring, the coworkers are annoying, and people
like to blow up your workplace. On the plus side, you move every
2-4 years, sometimes to very very nice places. You get USA and
local country holidays off (15-20 holidays per year) plus vacation
and benefits like every other USG employee.
Besides, how cool would it be to have a Diplomatic (Black) Passport?
Check the Department of State recruitment page here:
http://www.careers.state.gov/specialist/opportuni
The pay band quotes on the page doesn't seem too high, but remember
that the pay listed doesn't include all the freebies like housing,
utilities, cost-of-living, hardship, etc - many of which are tax-free.
I'd pay the numbers by $30,000 to get a real approximation of the value
of overseas benefits paid by Uncle Sam.
That page is full of half-truths and poor statistics.
I don't drink, smoke or use drugs. There are numerous reasons not to indulge, and I found them all when I used over 20 years ago. False anti-drug propaganda is not necessary in the light of the real reasons for not using drugs.
However, the arguments for not using drugs do not support the case for making war on drugs, which is an entirely different issue. IMO, the consequences of our drug war far outweigh the harm caused by what would be legal drug use.
A couple of factoids (not sufficient for decision-making): The UK had almost NO drug-related crime when drugs were available from the National Health Service. Since Thatcher joined Reagan's War on Drugs, the incidence of of violent drug-related crime has shot up astronomically. http://users.easystreet.com/ovid/philosophy/drugwa r.html
I heard a lecture by an economist at Rice University (I forget his name), and he claimed that if we stopped our War on Drugs, the price of a hit of crack would drop to about the price of a couple of aspirin. (His argument was that with costs so small, violence and theft would not be worth the risks.)
Now that I've said that, remember that the original question was,"Where would you go?" Drug availability should not be the deciding factor.
At this time, the USA is still a slightly better place to live than almost anyplace in the World, especially eonomically. It is deteriorating, but it is still better. According to the "Pocket World in Figures" (2003 is my latest), only the citizens of Luxembourg have more purchasing power than the average US citizen. Our purchasing power is higher than Japan, Germany, France, England and Canada. I correspond every day with friends who live in Sweden and Norway. They all love it, but it's only a good place to live; not to make money. Things are scarce, money is scarcer. (They have incomes of approximately $3000/mo USD, and this is GOOD income in Sweden! But it buys a lot less than the USA.) This seems to be true of Denmark, also. A friend of mine (Chinese-American with law offices in Houston, Singapore and Rotterdam) says that taxes in the Netherlands take about 75% her income there, prices are high, and services are slow. A friend of mine in Italy said it took her 6 months to get a dial-up internet connection in Rome two years ago, and it costs 4 times what she'd pay in the States. (She met a lot of nice friends in internet cafes, though.)
Although the Pocket World in Figures somehow calculated that Canada has the highest quality of life (the US second), I have relatives in Regina who had to come to the US for heart surgery because they couldn't get it in Canada; they were too old. Even if you are young enough, it may take 3 months or more to get a bypass or heart transplant.
I have friends who live in Japan and teach English (earn about $50,000/yr USD), and one who is a CPA working for an American firm, and they all say that the money goes a lot further in Japan, but most Japanese don't earn proportionally equivalent incomes.
It will change shortly: Those of us who are baby boomers will be retiring shortly. Social Security and Medicare represent about $50 TRILLION dollars of unfunded liabilities. Figure about $250,000 of debt for every man, woman and child in the USA, or about $1,000,000 per household of 4. (These liabilities are reported off-balance-sheet. If the US Government was Enron, Congress would go to jail.) The only way to fund these liabilities will be to raise taxes and create inflation, because it is such a huge amount of the GDP. Since most retirement funds are in the stock market, withdrawals will probably cause the stock market to decline rapidly and deeply. The repercussions will be felt all over the world, and places that might seem a great place to live today will not be so attractive when they can no longer sell their stuff to the USA and the USA is no longer a good place to invest. We
"The mind works quicker than you think!"
You can exercise greater control over your socioeconomic standing? Honestly? (no, really, I want to know).
Yes. Most of America's millionaires are first-generation rich.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Seriously, we have a young population (of a mere 4 million for a reasonably large country), theres no sectarian violence, people are well known for their friendliness, and its very easy to get in with an IT qualification. Also, you can say what you like about the Germans, Netherlands or Scandinavian countries, but lets face it; they have no sense of humour. Ireland won the "happiest place on earth to live" award not so long ago, we have a great deal of wealth, and employment is in good shape. You wouldn't bat an eyelid to see politicians and leaders ambling down the street buying groceries, although the downside is crazy property prices, which by all accounts are soon to collapse. Emigrants come home!
What he can't kill, he has sex on. Trent.
Non-correlation does not necessarily disprove causality, but it is a strong argument. (Stronger than correlation implying causality.) For numerous examples, consider the book "Why Things Bite Back". Here's a hypothetical: assume that helmets save lives. Specifically, if you're in an accident the helmet will "cause" you to live 90% of the time. Also assume that otherwise you live 0% of the time. (These numbers are completely made up, so just accept them for the sake of this example.) Now, also assume that people only wear a helmet when they're driving on certain roads, and that these roads have a 50% chance of resulting in an accident. Other roads have a 5% chance of resulting in an accident. So, in this purely made up example, every time you drive you have a 5% chance of death when you wear a helmet, and a 5% chance of death when you don't wear a helmet. No correlation, even on the assumption of causation.
Now, I want to repeat that non-correlation is a strong argument against causation. It just doesn't disprove it.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
*BZZZZZZT*
Your geek license has been temporarily suspended.
Please review the truth table for logical implication.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_implication
The 'war' on drugs best illustrates how the US government works. One group of governmental entities confiscates illegal drugs, and another, the CIA, imports them. At one point in time, the CIA (cocain importing agency) was smuggling 21 tons of cocain into the USA per year. This during the administration of George Bush Sr., who supported/declared 'war' on drugs to the public. Now his kid, not nearly as smart as he is, is making a mess of Iraq the the USA will need to spend the next 15 years cleaning up and all but publicly soiling his shorts to the rest of the world.
Right now, the USA is a good place to live, economically speaking. That's because most people work hard as dogs (most, not all). As the population ages and declines (we're all too busy to reproduce and can't afford it anyway), how exactly can a government turned against itself and run by a bunch of hippie neo-cons help a situation like that? The fall of the roman empire comes to mind.
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
I can't believe no-one linked to this:
"The world's top cities offering the best quality of life"
Since half this thread debated the Netherlands, I'll point out that the top 12 cities are not in the Netherlands, but in these countries:
- Switzerland
- Canada
- Austria
- New Zealand
- Germany
- Australia
- Denmark
Almost pointless at the end of such a long thread, but hopefully some lucky soul reads this.
SLM
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Dude, seriously, stop dispelling these myths! If people suddenly realize Canada isn't actually a subarctic wasteland, and that all the stories of people waiting years for operations are overblown or outdated, we'll never be able to keep people out!
But really the old USA that never quite existed. If it was all Liberty, this place would be great. I'm going to put my fist in the face of the next "love it or leave it" twit I hear, they're the ones turning this beautiful land into the New Soviet.
With what's been going on the last while, yes, moving crosses my mind. The place I'd go would be to one of several South Pacific or equatorial islands: Kiribati, Palau, Tuvalu, etc. The reasons I haven't left include friends, family, finances, and that I haven't assembled my ninja army to take one of those islands over. No, I'm not talking about being an American ex-pat who smokes and does the local hotties, I'm talking about going someplace and conquering it to live out my libertarian-anarchist fantasies. Anyone know where I can get a crate of AK-47s and a cheap hydrofoil?
Josh
gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
When I was younger (late teens), I had feelings about leaving the country to live in Europe or somewhere. Then I joined the Air Force and had the good fortune to visit 14 countries and to live in one of them for 3 years. Nothing made this American prouder of his own country than visiting others. I'll take America, thanks.
Moderate me as patriotic troll, I guess.
http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Out-Leaving/dp/09760 82276
[All of the following is quoted from the Amazon book description]
Book Description
Had enough?
Whether you find the government oppressive, the economy spiraling out of control, or if you simply want adventure, you're not alone. In increasing numbers, the idea is talked about openly: Expatriate.
Over three hundred thousand Americans emigrate each year, and more than a million go to foreign lands for lengthy stays.
But picking up and moving to another country feels like a step into the void. Where to go? How to begin? What to do?
Volume 2 of the Process Self-Reliance Series, this smartly designed two-color guidebook walks you through the world of the expat: the reasons, the rules, the resources, and the tricks of the trade, along with compelling stories and expertise from expatriate Americans on every continent.
Getting Out shows you where you can most easily gain residence, citizenship, or work permits; where can you live for a fraction of the cost of where you're living now; and what countries would be most compatible with your lifestyle, gender, age, or political beliefs.
So if you've had enough of what they're selling here and want to take your life elsewhere-well, isn't that the American way? At any rate, it's not illegal. Not yet, anyway.
About the Author
Mark Ehrman is a frequent traveler and freelance writer whose work regularly appears in the Los Angeles Times, Playboy, Travel and Leisure, and numerous travel magazines city guidebooks.
I very quickly summarized the commentary here on why one would move from the US to several flamewars based on a lack of understanding of the culture in various non-US countries to arguments about tax burdens and arguments about what constitutes an addictive drug.
These are side-issues.
The reson one might be interested in leaving the US relates to something that my father shocked me by saying just some weeks ago.
He referred to the current administration in the US, along with their supporters in Congress at fascists.
Now, I respect my father. I'm not just out of his house and I'm not still reacting to the "awful way he treated me" when I "turned insane" shortly after puberty. My father has consistently earned my respect by tending to be right and by letting go of a lot of his own personal garbage. I also know that he lived through a time in which fascism was considered a viable political system in three countries in Europe -- with other countries admiring the "benefits" of a totalitarian regime that gives itself a pass for criminal activity. This is a serious and very shocking statement from a man who watched as the entire world fought against fascism and managed to win.
The US government is fascist due to several factors:
The Military Commissions Act of 2006(PDF Alert), which was signed by Bush on October 17, 2006 suspends the writ of Habeus Corpus in a time that is definitely not a national emergency.
This preserves the "Law-Free Zone" set up in Guantanimo. These detainees are kept in isolation from US Courts who, if there is adequate proof would be all too happy to confirm that these people are dangerous. Camp X-Ray also serves as a zone where the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of Prisoners of War may be utterly ignored. We broke off relations with North Vietnam (and later, Vietnam) due to their treatment of US prisoners in a manner that ignored the Geneva Conventions.
The act also pardons everyone and anyone for all acts that violate the Geneva Conventions, including the procedure of Extraordinary Rendition and backdates that exemption from prosecution to September 11th, 2001.
The President and his Executive Branch are given full reign in defining what an "enemy combatant" is. I recall that Hitler regarded Jewish persons within Germany and the territories acquired by Germany, as well as allied countries as enemies of the state. Also, anyone giving material aid to any enemy was branded with the same. There was no Habeus Corpus in Germany and the courts were puppets of the state.
What I'm saying here is that we have a very serious situation in the US where civil rights have been nullified by a political party that considers self-examination wrong and unpatriotic (there have been no committees in either the House of Representatives or the Senate to examine the conduct of the "war on terror") and are fully prepared to negate the entire Bill of Rights in order to maintain their grip on political power.
Many Americans aren't aware of how their rights have been suspended. Those who are find it hard to continue to live here.
Countries who honor the rights of their citizens and who do not give their executive branch the right to run roughshod over the rights of minorities and persons who hold political beliefs that may differ may look a lot better than the US today for a citizen concerned with our present government.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
So this is what it has come to, has it?
You quit.
That's it?
It's over?
You're going to let your country expire because you're too lazy to get up off your asses and take it back? The US is (or was) the perfect example of a country. You were oppressed by some ruling class that wanted to tax you with representing you, take away your rights, and treat you like the lousy commoners you are. Instead of leaving to go to other countries, your ancestors said, "Hey, that's not right. We can do a better job." You overthrew the government and made the biggest, roughest, smartest country that the world has ever known. You invented electric lights, developed flight, split the atom, and you walked on the fucking moon. You showed the world, "This is what we are capable of as human beings when we work together. Man and woman, rich and poor, white and black, side by side."
Yeah, you've had some rough times. A few dickheads have metagamed and bent the rules towards their own sociopathic ends. It's hard to stage a revolt and take back your country when there are laws preventing you from doing so.
But you know what? There were laws against revolting from England, too. I'm sure that your founding fathers would have been hanged (lethal injection not being around at the time) or sent to The Tower (Gitmo not being around at the time either). Yeah, you might die. You might have to go to war. You've done that before - twice, and internally! - so that the side of freedom would prevail.
I am not an American. I think that for the most part, you're a bunch of arrogant assholes. But you know what? You deserve to be arrogant. A large part of the hostility you get from foreigners is jealousy. Yes, jealousy. You're a young country. You're less than 300 years old. How does that make a 3000 year old country look when you completely surpass their technology, human rights, and standard of living? Yeah, they'd look stupid for just sitting around in the desert when they could have been using the tools that were just lying around. You are the most powerful nation in the history of the planet. There is nothing in this universe that you cannot do. All you require is the will to do it.
If you leave, if you give up, that jealousy will turn to hatred - hatred that you threw out one of the best things that's happened to the world. And you are. Yeah, sometimes the US is a belligerent force. You've made some mistakes - and we all know what they are. But when there are earthquakes, the US is there. When there is starvation, the US is there. When there are floods, tsunamis, or hurricanes the US is there. Sometimes you go to the wrong places or have misguided or corrupt leaders. For the most part, you are a force for good. At least, you try to be.
We all make mistakes. Mistakes can be forgiven.
Don't give up.
If you don't like what's happening to your country, then don't quit it. Fight it. Fight to keep your country safe and secure. The only threat to your country comes from within.
Be strong. Stay and fight.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
See here's the problem: You seem to want a country that enforces YOUR viewpoint on everyone. When you say you are interested in a country that has Shari'a Law, you seem to mean that you want it as you understand and would choose to practise it. That's understandable, but the problem is that barring you running the show, you aren't going to find a place that everyone agrees with your views. I'm not an Islamic scholar and I can't claim to understand all the intricate differences but even my cursory level of research has revealed some major differences in opinion as to what Shari'a Law ought to encompass and how it ought to be enforced.
So, if you want to live your life according to the beliefs you have, the best bet for that is a nation that is tolerant of all beliefs. While they won't force others to conform to what you believe is right, they won't tend for force you to conform to what they think is right.
There's really no paradox here. If you go to a country like Iran that's run by Ayatollah, well you get THEIR version of Islam which might not mesh with your own. You also tend to run in to the whole "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely," thing. If you go to a country like this US that's very free you are going to see all kinds of people doing all kinds of things you don't like, but they aren't going to tell you that you have to join in for the most part.
You might want to take a bit of caution when applying for this kind of work. I speak of this from first-hand experience.
Dealing with classified information is very high risk from a personal standpoint. The penalties of a security breach due to personal negligence is *very* harsh. And by the job description, you'll be up to your ears in it.
Also, an Information Management position isn't strictly IT work. It's a hybrid position consisting of both IT work and your rather mundane office-assistant paperwork shuffler.
Government employment has very nice benefits, and provides a very stable work environment. However, keep in mind that whenever you work with classified information there is a lot of risk/stress involved.
I did computer security for one of the best clubs in San Francisco. We had city supervisors and official from the Department of Public Health visit our club to see a model of how it should be done right. We also had a federally funded critical care hospital contract with us to deliver cannabis to their AIDS patients. We gave away free food, had free counselling services and support groups for people with HIV, cancer, and hep-c as well as groups for people trying to get off harder drugs.
We taught harm reduction techniques, and in fact everyone that worked there had to take a class in harm reduction. Everything Mr. Slippery is saying is true. Smoking is the problem, not cannabis. We sold many varieties of baked goods and tinctures. We also sold several brands of vaporizers, and every new member was told of the dangers and options during their hour long orientation.
You can not smoke enough cannabis to kill yourself. You would pass out first. You would have to eat several kilos of high grade hash to do the job. Cannabis is mildly physically addicting, having withdrawal symptoms ranging in severity from coffee withdrawal to nicotine withdrawal (only without the intense cravings.)
The main danger of cannabis is demotivation, which generally only happens with people who smoke it to escape anyway. People who smoke it as a medicine for pain or appetite stimulation do not generally suffer from amotivational syndrome. But if you are smoking pot as an escape, as with any other escapist behavior, a lot of life can pass you by while you are engaging in that behavior.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton