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Make Linux "Gorgeous," Says Ubuntu Leader

OSS_ilation writes "They say beauty is only skin deep, but when it comes to Linux and the free software movement, people like Mark Shuttleworth think looks have an important part to play. On his blog and an article on SearchOpenSource.com, Shuttleworth and a slew of open source end users say that the look and feel of open source is also a matter of wider acceptance among enterprise players who are used to Windows, yet crave Mac OS X and the functionality of Linux. 'If we want the world to embrace free software, we have to make it beautiful,' Shuttleworth said. "We have to make it gorgeous. We have to make it easy on the eye. We have to make it take your friend's breath away.' With the early success of Novell SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10, Shuttleworth and company may be onto something."

60 of 688 comments (clear)

  1. Imagine... by Nrbelex · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A person who has never used a computer turns on three which are arranged in front of them... A Windows box, a Mac box and a Linux box... all look identical on the outside. They receive no prompting. Which do they begin to try to learn to use?

    1. Re:Imagine... by Mikachu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It really doesn't matter. You're not competing against a world that has never seen a computer before. You're fighting against a world where Windows owns the market share, and Mac OSX is often shunned aside, where Linux is called the nerd OS.

      So essentially, Mark Shuttleworth is right. It's not enough to be just barely the best in anything when the market leader has almost all of the market. You have to truly jump miles above the market leader before people will notice. It's unfortunate but true.

      How do you think the Apple iPod worked so well? When it came out, nerds said "less space than a Nomad, it's shit." But what happened? If you really compare, the iPod blew the Nomad away in terms of ease of use and beauty. Not to mention marketing, but that's a different story altogether.

    2. Re:Imagine... by Kookus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Windows DUH! Because it automagically boots up by default without asking for a username and password!

    3. Re:Imagine... by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ``A person who has never used a computer turns on three which are arranged in front of them... A Windows box, a Mac box and a Linux box... all look identical on the outside. They receive no prompting. Which do they begin to try to learn to use?''

      The one that finishes booting first?

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:Imagine... by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Keep in mind thye average user will probably also have an mp3 player and a thumb drive connected as well as a cd/dvd burner. What if the user has multiple hard drive, potentially from an upgrade (not that uncommon) or maybe from their old machine (ie: salvaged during an upgrade by whomever did the upgrade for them). If you just use /home the user will be quite confused as to why all that new space they jsut bought isn't showing up. And /home/username is just as unintuitive, most will dump stuff onto their desktop or whatever folders are linked from their desktop.

    5. Re:Imagine... by Tom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      because it has the big start button

      You are aware of the tiny historic fact that the animated "click here to start" thing that appeared in the task bar of windos 95 after a fresh install was put there as a last-minute hack because final tests on a new user group, totally new to the system, resulted in the shock finding that none of them thought about looking for Applications in a button called "Start" ?

      The phrase "starting a program" is geek-speak. It's not how your mum thinks.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    6. Re:Imagine... by BobNET · · Score: 2, Funny

      This may be true, but at least Linux doesn't need a reboot to install Quake 3...

    7. Re:Imagine... by gardyloo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Obviously not the Mac, since it has only one mouse button and can't be as good as the other two...

  2. Wow, and accurate assessment! by Salvance · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Finally, someone who is addressing the root cause of why Linux continues to trail market leaders in desktop share. In addition to making it "beautiful", developers need to continue adding out-of-the-box widgets/features to prevent someone from ever needing to modify a script or enter a terminal window if they didn't want to. If they could address both of these 'issues', Linux would have a fighting chance against Windows desktops.

    IMO - Microsoft doesn't dominate because it is better, it dominates because of great marketing and ease of use (even for groups such as the disabled). My grandmother can use XP Home, but if I have Linux up, she completely freezes. Sure, there's some grandmas that know perl scripting, but who wants to jump in and start compiling code just so they can play bridge with their friends over the net?

    --
    Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
    1. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by cyber-vandal · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I dispute the hard to use part of Linux. Yes it's a bugger to get working sometimes but so is Windows. How many of us here provide tech support to otherwise intelligent people who have a complete blind spot when it comes to using a Windows box. If Windows breaks in a confusing way how many non-geeks do you know who can sort it out? My dad is the only one I know and I support a lot of family, friends and co-workers.

    2. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's funny, because most people get scared when the hear that they are using Linux. Try running KDE, plopping your friend in front of your computer, and seeing how hard it is for them to figure out what to do. I have done this several times, and people almost immediately adapt to: 1.) Using Konqueror 2.) Using GAIM 3.) Using OpenOffice 4.) Playing music. When something works differently, or doesn't work, they just shrug it off, assuming that it is simply some error or bug, the same way they shrug off problems in Windows. And there is scripting support on Windows, and I know somebody who does use JScript to automate certain tasks. It is more common to script things on Linux because more Linux users know how to write programs, but that doesn't make it necessary for using Linux. If you think about how most home users use computers, you get: Office (word processing, spreadsheets, etc.), Web, Instant Messaging, E-mail, and Gaming. Of these, the only thing that somebody would really be unable to use Linux for is gaming -- some day, the wine guys will solve that problem. In general, though, Linux has been usable for the average person for years now.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    3. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Salvance · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I couldn't agree more ... the unfortunate thing is that any time I make similar suggestions to Linux programmers or just tech groups in general I get responses like "PEBKAC, not my problem", or "If you can't do XYZ, then you're not smart enough to be using a computer", or even "if Linux were easy to use, there'd be less jobs for support guys like me". These are REAL responses I've received from legitimate Linux developers.

      As backwards as it sounds, I really think the Linux world needs to find some investors to plop down BIG money for PR, Marketing, and Focus Groups just for increasing desktop penetration. These may all sound like swear words to a techie, but I think they're essential to increasing Linux adoption.

      --
      Crack - Free with every butt and set of boobs
    4. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 2, Informative

      Under Gnome, click on "Places" and then on "Connect to server". A dialog will now open. Set the service type to "Windows Share" and fill in the "server", "share", and "user name" fields. If there is a domain, fill in the "domain" field too. Hit "connect". You now have an icon on both the desktop and in the Places menu named after the folder. Click on it. It will ask you for a password and it will give you the option to save it in your keyring (it's encrypted, btw). All Gnome applications (including OpenOffice) will show it on the left of file dialogs. It will be there whenever you start the computer.

      KDE provides similar functionality, but it's not as easy to find. The tool to set it up do it is in one of the menus but every distro seems to try to hide it. Here is documentation on how to use it.

      No editing text files. No plain text passwords. No root privileges required.

      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    5. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by 14CharUsername · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Linux is great for beginners. And its perfect for experts. But it doesn't work very well for those people in between... the "Power Users". They get on a linux box and the first thing they say is "where's the C drive?" Then next its "where's Program Files?" Then they bitch about when stuff is installed it gets spread all over in places like /usr/bin, /usr/share, /usr/lib, /etc, etc. (see what I did there?).

      For beginners its great. "where's My Documents?" "How do I get on the Internet?" "How do I log out?" After a few minutes they figure these things out and are on the way.

      The experts get to the console and type ssh, rsync, grep, sed, find and the like and they're in heaven.

      But the "power users" have so much knowledge of registry hacks and all the little things that you have to do just to make windows work. They know that the hard drive is C: and if you have more than one hard drive, the second on is D:, if not then D: is the cdrom. Apps are installed in their own folders under C:\program files\ (unless you specified something else in the installer) but you can't remove them by just deleting the folder, you have to go to add/remove programs in the control panel. If that doesn't work then you nuke the app from the registry and then delete the folder in program files. To all the "power users" out there, that is how computers are supposed to work. Show them anything else, then they are just as helpless as the beginners. They don't want to give up all that windows specific knowledge without a fight.

    6. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by styrotech · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Agreed, it isn't computer novices that find Linux Desktops any harder to use than Windows. It's the more experienced Windows users that generally find Linux harder to use. They have preconceived notions about how computers are supposed to work and have forgotten how long it took them to pick up their current Windows knowledge. They underestimate how much new stuff they will need to learn when moving to a different system.

      eg: I'm very experienced with both Linux and Windows, but still get lost and confused with OSX because I'm still very new to it. Even so I'd accept that OSX is probably the easiest to learn after watching my wife buy an iMac and pick it up without much knowledge of any other systems.

    7. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Ana10g · · Score: 2, Funny

      Gramma has worms? Damn!!!!

      --
      just an analog boy living in a digital age.
    8. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Shawn+is+an+Asshole · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You said "Under Gnome"


      Correct. Gnome has made significant progress in creating an easy to use desktop. Pre-2.12 I could not tolerate using it more than a few days (I was a KDE user since early '99). 2.12 is what made me consider switching from KDE. 2.14 convinced me to do it. With 2.16, I now have no desire to use KDE at all. I've even dropped the few KDE apps I used for Gnome ones (amaroK->Exaile, Quanta->Bluefish+CSSED, K3B->GnomeBaker, etc) I'll give 4 a try, but it will have to be really good to get me to switch back.

      well I use KDE


      So did I, but IMHO, Gnome has finally surpassed it.

      they will cut the distro down to 2-3 Major distros (and one really customizable desktop).


      Isn't that pretty much what's happening? Who are the majors? Red Hat? Gnome. SUSE? A choice, but every screen shot I see anymore use Gnome. Ubuntu's getting popular and it's also Gnome.
      --
      "It ain't a war against drugs.it's a war against personal freedom" --Bill Hicks
    9. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by CreatureComfort · · Score: 2, Insightful


      Well, that's all part of it, isn't it. If I want to listen to music on a Windows machine, and I don't like WMP, it is easy for me to find out about Winamp, iTunes, or other good, highly polished apps. I can then go to the website, look at screen shots, read reviews and feature lists, etc. When I see one that looks good I click the big friendly download button. If I'm a complete novice and running IE, when the download starts I click the "run file" button when it asks to start the download, otherwise I save it to desktop, or to my hard drive. When it's done downloading, I click the friendly 'run' next to the file in download manger, or double-click the .exe wherever I saved it on the disk or desktop. Boom, the installer runs and my new application has a start menu entry and/or a desktop icon, and I can start using it.

      On Ubuntu, it is search through Synaptic for applications whose description look like they might do what I am looking for, making sure to check all repositories. Fire up a browser to try to do research on them. Weed through the forum flamewars and cryptic support documents to figure out if it might work and look they way I want. Screenshots? HAHAHAHAHA. Go back to Synaptic and select the application for install. After it installs hope that it added itself somewhere to Applications (usually it doesn't). If it doesn't then go find the executable and get it to run, just to see if you like it.

      Now, I'll get the replies of, "Why not just install and play with them all, then remove the ones you don't like." My answer is that I don't want to spend that kind of time on something that really in the grand scheme of things isn't that important. In the windows world, I can spend an hour searching for and finding the app that works best for me. In linux, I find it takes me all day.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    10. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Bugmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, I'm a "power user", and I disagree with your assessment. I'd love if Linux gave me simple answers to the following questions:

      * Where should I save my work ?
      * How do I read files from a CD ?
      * When I install programs, where do they go ?
      * Speaking of which, how do I install something ?

      Windows provides answers to these questions in form of GUI. I can click on the CD-Rom icon, I can pick programs from the Start menu, I can add/remove programs using the GUI tool, and I can save my files pretty much anywhere I want. As a power user, I know some registry hacks and UI tweaks and such, but I can function without them; I can also fit most of the implementation details (registry, c:\Program Files, D: drive) into my head at once.

      Linux provides *no* answers to these questions -- or, at best, a whole host of confusing, conflicting answers. I'd love it if Linux worked like Windows, by providing all these answers in the GUI. I'd love it *even more* if Linux had a consistent way of doing all these things from the terminal... But it does not. You've got apt-get, rpm, /user/bin, /sbin, /bin, that weird-ass K-Menu or Gnome with three different things named "Settings" that lead to different places, CD-Rom drives that you need to remember to mount... It's a mess, and it's a *different* mess in each and every distribution. Until this is fixed, power users such as myself will stick to Windows.

      I understand that, with quite a bit of work, I can configure Linux to work the way I want. But Windows answers my questions out of the box, and I need to get work done, so I don't care to spend a week getting Linux to behave.

      --
      >|<*:=
    11. Re:Wow, and accurate assessment! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For beginners it's easy indeed. Power users can adapt. But experts (on the windows side) are the hardest to convert.

      Not only not knowing where stuff goes, but they also need to find suitable replacements for everything. Visual Studio? Learn other editors (vi/emacs), IDEs, debuggers and compilers (gcc?). The windows APIs we're used to? Gone. The widgets (winforms/winfx/whatever)? Gone. The frameworks? Gone. C#? Learn another language. Scripting languages you know? Learn perl instead. SQL Server? Learn another DB inside out.

      We've just got to flush 20+ years of expertize down the drain, unlearn everything we know, and re-learn it all on linux, using *TOTALLY* different apps, different languages, APIs, widgets, frameworks, concepts and everything else.

      Hell, I've tried moving to linux. I've tried ubuntu, but even after a half hour of trying, I couldn't replace the default theme. I installed apache, but had no idea where apache itself went (didn't ask where to install unlike it does under windows), no idea where the htdocs directory went to (again, it didn't ask for that either, and searching found nothing - and it was named differently and placed in different places on every distro I've tried seemingly), service wasn't installed by default (I didn't even know linux had services, and if I install a web server, chances are I might want that installed, no? Regardless, it didn't ask if I wanted to). Sound over spdif (sb live 5.1)? Needed something (can't remember what exactly) that I could never manage. Play mp3s over smb? Gotta install this xmms patch first (hell, I have NO idea where to start). Where the fuck is everything? The best help I could find to this crucial point (asking in #ubuntu and everywhere else)? Read some pdf that's over 200 pages of VERY DRY stuff that made no sense to me.

      For those who are experts on the windows side (programmers mainly), switching to linux is an absolute nightmare. I'd love to, but as soon as I hit a linux box, I'm the world's biggest n00b. Going from expert (I'll code anything) to the "how the fuck do I play mp3s" type of n00b instantly is pretty hard (I'm *COMPLETELY* lost!) Honestly, it'd be easier for me to find a job in another field than to ever become a programmer on linux.

  3. Don't make it beautiful, make it Just Work (tm) by blackcoot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and when things don't Just Work (tm), make it Really Easy to Fix (tm). gui eye candy is nice and all, but it does no good if the underlying software is flakey and generally hard to use.

    1. Re:Don't make it beautiful, make it Just Work (tm) by nadamsieee · · Score: 2, Informative

      From TFB (the fine blog):

      Of course, "pretty but unusable" won't work either. It needs to be both functional and attractive. Rather than bling for bling's sake, let's use artistic effects to make the desktop BETTER, and obviously better.
  4. sjobs - design is not just veneer by johnrpenner · · Score: 5, Interesting


    Fortune Magazine: What has always distinguished the products of the
    companies you've led is the design aesthetic. Is your obsession with design
    an inborn instinct or what?

    Steve Jobs: We don't have good language to talk about this kind of thing.
    In most people's vocabularies, design means veneer. It's interior decorating.
    It's the fabric of the curtains and the sofa. But to me, nothing could be
    further from the meaning of design. Design is the fundamental soul of a
    man-made creation that ends up expressing itself in successive outer layers
    of the product or service. The iMac is not just the colour or translucence or
    the shape of the shell. The essence of the iMac is to be the finest possible
    consumer computer in which each element plays together.

    On our latest iMac, I was adamant that we get rid of the fan, because it is
    much more pleasant to work on a computer that doesn't drone all the time.
    That was not just "Steve's decision" to pull out the fan; it required an
    enormous engineering effort to figure out how to manage power better and do
    a better job of thermal conduction through the machine. That is the furthest
    thing from veneer. It was at the core of the product the day we started.

    This is what customers pay us for--to sweat all these details so it's easy
    and pleasant for them to use our computers. We're supposed to be really good
    at this. That doesn't mean we don't listen to customers, but it's hard for
    them to tell you what they want when they've never seen anything remotely
    like it.

    http://www.fortune.com/fortune/2000/01/24/app6.htm l

    1. Re:sjobs - design is not just veneer by Khomar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wish I had mod points for you, because that was exactly my first thought. There is a huge difference between software that looks beautiful and software that is beautiful. A well designed application need not have visually fantastic features -- in fact, often the most "beautiful" applications have very simple interfaces, but they are very intuitive and a joy to use. I have not actually used a Mac in over a decade, but I am tempted to get one just because of the care Apple seems to take in everything that they do. In Windows Vista, Microsoft is doing exactly what Mark Shuttleworth has called for. They are trying to cover up the flaws and problems with Windows without actually redesigning the system.

      The problem with Linux for me has been its clunky feel. Most of the applications felt like hacks. There was no coherent organization for system tools, or there were multiple collections of applications that seemed to do the same thing but with slight differences (equivalent of two apps to change the screen settings, but one sets the resolution and background and the other the background and color settings). The applications felt poorly designed and half-baked with inconsistent interfaces. Now granted, it has been a couple years since I last touched a Linux distribution, so things may have changed since then, but somehow I doubt it. Installing new software was a chore, and was never as simple as it should have been. It seemed that most applications were even worse in Linux than in Windows for scattering files all of the file system. Many applications required edits to text files for configuration which while making some configuration possible to automate from the command line does not make things easy to use for the casual user (where was the config file again?).

      Really, from what I understand of OS X, Apple came much closer to what really needs to be done -- a complete revamping of the structure of Linux. Create a consistent, simplified and enforced directory structure to make application and driver installation much easier to manage. Replace all configuration with graphical tools while leaving the power of the command line available for those who wish to tap into it but out of plain view. Create a consistent user experience with well thought out conventions that create an atmosphere of familiarity throughout all applications that run in the system. Unfortunately, I am not sure that this is possible in the open source arena because you almost need a more totalitarian organization system to enforce it. Transforming Linux into a real competitor with OS X and Windows will take a great deal of organization and cooperation -- something that Linux seems to lack, especially when you consider how many flavors of Linux there are. Unity has never been their strong suit, but to accomplish what Mark Shuttleworth is suggesting, they will need a unified effort from the core systems all the way to the MP3 player to make it happen.

      --

      I believe in de-evolution. God made the world perfect, man fell, and its been going downhill ever since!

  5. They say beauty is only skin deep, but ugly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...goes all the way to ring 0.

  6. resolution independent by augustz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Imagine having a clean and clear desktop. Make things a little bigger for your mother. Make them a little smaller for the numbers nerd.

    When you buy that ridiculously high resolution dell laptop, all the icons and text doesn't shrink to the size of warnings for health meds.

  7. how about making Ubuntu Gorgeous by ArcherB · · Score: 5, Funny

    While Ubuntu is relatively polished and most of the stuff "just works", the default baby-shit-brown color scheme is hideous.

    So, while I would agree that Linux needs some beautification, I don't trust anyone at Ubuntu to do it!

    --
    There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    1. Re:how about making Ubuntu Gorgeous by Spug · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's beginning to get more orange.

    2. Re:how about making Ubuntu Gorgeous by jbeaupre · · Score: 5, Funny

      As the owner of a new 2006 model human, I've found the "baby-shit orange" most often results from inserting carrots in the drooling end. Due to defects in design of digestion and skin, said unit also ends up with an orange ass. Which is all well and good, since the manufacturer (aka "mom") does not consider it a problem and in fact thinks it's hilarious.

      I will attest that the wide variety of browns coming from our unit, including orange-brown, matches the Ubuntu theme very well. Close enough that I can almost smell Ubuntu.

      --
      The world is made by those who show up for the job.
    3. Re:how about making Ubuntu Gorgeous by injury0314 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I totally agree, that the color scheme is hideous.

      So when I upgraded to ubuntu dapper for my parents back home, I made an effort to set up a better color scheme.

      To my surprise, when they began using the computer, they were disappointed that it didn't come with the ubuntu color scheme they love so much. And no, they have had other os'es and distros setup in their computer Win2k,XP,Mandrake,Debian.

      So, maybe it just boils down to people's preferences.

  8. Re:Ironic by IflyRC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Linux actually needs both to really compete on the desktop. Sure, don't let drivers and other core libraries slide but it needs serious help in the UI department. Linux developers always speak of standards and fault MS for never following them - how about Linux having a UI standard? Too many things I use I have to relearn the UI to some degree. At least in Windows (for the most part) there is a standard in the tool bars and menus. File, Edit, etc.

  9. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by shmlco · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why can't you have well-designed ergonomics AND great eye-candy? Why deny that both serve a useful place at the table?

    Another thing that's needed is something similar to Apple's original User Interface Guidelines, so that all of the applicatons on the platform are consistent from both a usability and visual standpoint.

    Having consistent dialogs, button placements, menus, and so on tend to make a platform a LOT more accessible.

    --
    Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  10. Doubtful by mpapet · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In principal, I agree.

    In practice, it's not what makes people switch. They will switch when there is an overwhelming need for something that is not provided by their current PC.

    Otherwise, they don't switch.

    Despite Apple's temporarily high visibility (pre vista media onslaught) these days, they know from experience getting people to switch even -if- you have a beautiful desktop and good advertising marketing budgets is tough.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  11. Ain't gonna happen by melted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Too many people need to give up their egos, use GUI toolkits they don't like, and admit they don't know jack about what looks good and what doesn't.

  12. -1, Doesn't Get It by hcdejong · · Score: 5, Interesting

    People don't crave OS X because it's beautiful, but because it Just Works. The beauty of OS X is way beyond skin deep. To achieve it you need things like consistency, subtle cues that inform the user of what's happening, you need to remove clutter etc.
    You need to think about every element of the UI not in isolation, but in relation to all the other elements. Mere eye candy just doesn't cut it. Shuttleworth sort of admits this in the blog entry, but bulldozes over it earlier on, when he says I'm not talking about inner beauty, not elegance, not ideological purity... pure, unadulterated, raw, visceral, lustful, shallow, skin deep beauty.

    Sorry Mark, but you're starting at the wrong end here. You need inner beauty, in the shape of e.g. a consistent framework, and at the most fundamental level, just plain consideration of how the user interacts with the application, before you can start working on the skin.

    And that is why Linux distributions as we know them will never compete with OS X. You'd need to toss X and its bazillion GUI toolkits, and replace them with something new. Then you'd need to organize a Human Interface Police, whose job it is to kick developers who don't follow the guidelines. And I suspect that won't go over well among the Linux developer community with its "free to do whatever the hell I like" mindset.

    1. Re:-1, Doesn't Get It by dodongo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't understand why you'd need to toss X, per se.

      And I would also point out that Ubuntu does make a concerted effort to ensure the GUIs it uses operate off the same toolkit, and they do push for strong unified look & feel.

      Apple needs HIG police, too, so says iTunes vs. Safari vs. Preview vs. Mail, for example. You're telling me that's the gold standard in uniform look-and-feel? My, we all have a long way to go, don't we? And that's just their in-house development, let alone goodies like MS Office and RealPlayer.

      Hell, RealPlayer for Linux is way more GNOME-HIG compliant than RP for OS X is to Apple's HIG.

      And I know, I know, I'm playing the old "gotcha" game, pointing out the relatively rare exception here and there. But the point remains that to default to these "Oh, Apple has done it so well and everyone should try to be as good as Apple" really overlooks some striking details. I think with some work, Ubuntu can be competitive in regular-user look, feel, and experience (perhaps not overall underlying polish, true!) with OS X without a major change of system architecture.

      FULL DISCLAIMER: Wrote this post on my iBook running OS X. Will read follow-ups at home on my Ubuntu Edgy box.

    2. Re:-1, Doesn't Get It by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't agree with you. While I personally find it much more important that things Just Work, a lot of people care about eye candy. Thus, eye candy is a good thing to spend energy on. Even if this is at the expense of other things, it might still be a Good Thing; for example, Ubuntu could be the Gorgeous OS, whereas Mac OS X would be the OS that Just Works.

      Looking at the way things are, I would say it's rather the other way around at the moment. OS X is definitely more attractive than Ubuntu as far as looks go, but Ubuntu (especially versions before Breezy) provide a better Just Works experience. Sure, OS X is fine for Apple stuff...but getting third party software to work on it can be somewhat involved, hardware support isn't stellar, etc. YMMV, of course.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    3. Re:-1, Doesn't Get It by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Interesting

      People don't crave windows because it's beautiful, they crave it because it runs their software .

      Aside from nicking the discs from the office (do people still do that in todays IT-managed world?) for home use, the bulk of the apps on the net are for win machines. Maybe I should clairfy - the bulk of the precompiled apps are for win machines. [insert virus joke here].

      Make all my stuff run on another platform, and I'm in.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    4. Re:-1, Doesn't Get It by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Informative

      And someday, if they try really hard, OS X will be nearly as self-consistent as KDE is today. When the Mac equivalents of KIO slaves are universally supported, for example, I' d actually consider switching to OS X. Until then, it's too flaky and ad-hoc for me to take it seriously

      Just for a the sake of a differing opinion.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    5. Re:-1, Doesn't Get It by syousef · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Okay I'm a Windows user primarily, but I've used KDE, Gnome and fvwm. I've also used Macs but not regularly for some time I'll admit. A couple of years ago the company I was working for bought an eMac for testing. I found the UI to be cumbersome and clunky. I certainly didn't think it was useful and it'sn ot just because I wasn't use to the Mac. (I wasn't use to KDE or Gnome, but I loved KDE, and could get along with Gnome most days).

      Why do Mac users go on and on about how useable and intuitive they are? I mean last time I looked this was still the OS where you move a disk into the recycle bin to eject it. Windows isn't intuitive. Neither is LInux. But neither is MacOS either.

      There's 2 good reasons Linux distributions don't compete:

      1) The arrogant RTFM attitude of most developers. Coming across as the unkempt social retard that most Linux evangalists come across as doesn't help, but there is no good reason (not even laziness of the user) to actually take the time to fire off volleys of abuse at the people you're trying to convince your software is best.

      2) The fragmentation. There's only one MacOS but good luck working out what command does what or where anything is when you sit down in front of a brand new Linux distro (of which there are hundreds). Don't worry though, with many different versions planned for Vista, and this mess with activation, I'm sure it'll start to compete with Linux for being the hardest to get into.

      I simply don't care if something's pretty. So long as it's not such an eyesore it's hard to look at, who cares. I want icons that represent the application I'm launching. I don't care if it's pretty, just make it representative. I don't care what colour things are so long as they don't cause eye strain. I don't want transparency and animation. They're just fucking distractions.

      As far as I'm concerned no one's got it right, and it's just constantly getting worse. Desktops peaked in the late 90s. People are now trying to solve problems that aren't there. They're trying to invent a better hammer and unsurprisingly making a pig's breakfast of it.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  13. The trouble with polish by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is that it has to be applied regularly. New major version of the software, new config dialogs, new wizards, new documentation? Better start redoing a lot of polish. Also, let's not forget that a polished turd is nothing more than a polished turd. Polish is only something you need when you already have a solid product with rough edges. So while I think Linux could use a layer of polish in a few places, I hardly think it's a big driver. Yes, people will flock to Ubuntu over other distros with a little polish. But is that really what drives adoption of Linux as a whole? I think it's more hard questions like:

    - Does Firefox work on most webpages?
    - Does OpenOffice interoperate well with MS Office files?
    - Does GIMP support 16-bit color/CMYK separation?
    - Does Thunderbird interoperate well with our exchange server?

    The really hard work is being done all the time by the people making fundamental improvements to their applications. What Ubuntu is doing with polish is more like maxing the performance for the Olympics. While it's important to get the most out of the foundation you have, it's the foundation that has to improve. Though I suppose this is a case where I'd like to eat my cake and have it too...

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  14. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by mbkennel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Of course you should have great ergonomics and eye candy.

    Mark Shuttleworth said that the problem that Linux didn't look good enough.

    That's not really entirely true, it looks OK. But the ergonomics still suck really hard for
    many things. It works reasonably nastily.

    Comparing to Windows isn't remotely good enough.

    When it starts to be an ergonomic horse race between Mac OS X and Billionaire
    Linux, then that's progress. We're about as far in that direction as Afghanistan is sending turbaned men to Mars.

    In fact, a number of Mac users have complained, rightfully, that some more recent
    MacOSX releases sacrifice ergonomics for eye candy.

  15. Sooo by Klaidas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sooo, if Mark said that "pretty" is a feature, will we see less members of the I-hate-vista-because-a-lot-of-people-will-use-it-a nd-also-it-looks-nice-so-it's-even-worse-and-it-ha s-nothing-my-good- old-terminal-couldn't-do club?

  16. Somewhat unrelated by NineNine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Does Thunderbird interoperate well with our exchange server?

    Why would anybody want to do this? Take a full-featured office management server and strip it down to basic email because that's all the client can handle? Huh?

  17. Better yet by Cereal+Box · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Instead of making it look "gorgeous", how about focusing on making Linux look "consistent"?

    Windows and Mac OS sure didn't achieve their easily identifiable "looks" by promoting dozens of inconsistent GUI toolkits.

  18. Re:Ironic by tnk1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There has to be a balance, that is true. You can't have an OS that is completely window dressing, but at the same time, if you want people to sit in front of your machine for hours and hours without having to be the sort of person who are attracted to computers for their own sake, it has to look good and function well.

    If you build an OS that is rock solid, but its UI is command-line or a crappy GUI, you may well have a successor to the mainframe on your hands, which would be profitable, but it was my impression that Linux was not supposed to be some cryptic mainframe update.

    A big issue, that I think actually plays into what you are saying is the sheer number of possibilities that exist for Linux desktop UIs. I think one of the best and worst things about Linux (and Unices in general), is the fact that you can have a bazillion UIs and every other distro has their own UI or variation on that UI.

    Fact is, more than having a "pretty" desktop, you need a *standard* desktop. One that people can learn to use on Ubuntu, and if they want to go to a Red Hat distro, or possibly even Gentoo, they see the same thing on their screen. When they go to their friend's house, they can access the same interface (personalizations excluded) that they have at home. BUT, they don't just have the option to have it, they MUST use that default unless they know enough about the system to figure out how to enable another Window Manager.

    Yes, I mean that the selection of Gnome, KDE or whatever needs to be removed from easy selection on the login screen. They need to login with Linux GUI (whatever the heck that would be) and then, only if they know enough about the system, can they change it.

    Yes, I can hear the howls about options and freedom, but honestly, you have to review your goals here. People like having freedom, but need standards to function, at least as an initial default. Linux succeeds because it is diverse, but it also falls short in some areas, like user acceptance, because it is diverse. I've been a UNIX user and admin for over a decade, and even today, I can barely stand to use a UNIX (or Linux) box as a desktop machine, even through its 10x more stable than my stupid Windows XP box. It also means that if I want to try another distro, I'm stuck trying to relearn where stuff is or have to retreat to the command line. That works for me or you, but not for Mom or Dad or Grandma who don't even grasp the concept of a UNIX command line.

    We don't need a "pretty" UI. We need an "attractive" UI which is standardized and has enough out of the box default acceptance across distros, so that anyone who has ever used a Linux box can find all of the internals they need by clicking on the same things, and at the same time, is sharp enough looking so that people feel like someone has taken the time to make the system friendly for them. At that point, the other UIs need to become hobbies, and shed the wasted development resources that could be used by the kernel and or drivers. Or at the very least, stop trying to push their interface to the top.

    Personally, I think Linux acceptance will really come into its own when "Linux" means the same default user experience no matter what distro they are using. Think about it, Windows desktop users don't give a shit if their box is running AMD or Intel or if it is using FAT or NTFS, *Windows* to them is the interface that sits on top of all of that stuff. The only way *Linux* will evolve into a competor in that space is to realize that desktop users only care that their programs run fast enough (Linux already has that covered), that they can use popular tools and that they know where everything they need to use is in the UI.

    A GUI does not have to be super-awesome. Not the default one anyway. "Linux", the brand, just needs a good UI that everyone knows and everyone uses right out of the box. The distro can still have Gnome, KDE, or any window manager, widget set or anything else that they want, but they have to be an option for power use

  19. New paint on a crumbling building by Theovon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I agree that appearance is important. Humans function better when they have pleasant environments. It's also true that Linux distros often really suck when it comes to basics of HCI and even simple artistic elements that would make things a lot more pleasant and usable.

    But it really bugs me when people talk about aesthetics while the internal structure isn't sound. I'm happily using Dapper Drake, but it wasn't trivial to setup correctly with some of the hardware I wanted to use. But there's the recent slashdot article that mentions the upgrade nightmare when going from Dapper Drake to Edgy Eft. And there are even more fundamental problems with Linux. The graphics system in Linux is held together with duct tape. It's just WAY too easy to break, and there is no kind of structure to it. There should be APIs and standard mechanisms for handling graphics devices in a general, but they just don't exist (and don't tell me about DRI -- it's only one step in the right direction). I'm told that there are many other facilities, like networking, that aren't a whole lot better.

    Look at it this way: If Microsoft had gotten their shit together in the beginning and written a decent operating system, rather than cobbling DOS and some other crap together and sticking a GUI on top, then more of us would be using Windows. Instead, they shipped us crap, we figured that out, and we moved on to other systems. For a very long time, Mac OS (9 and before) was all surface, with an embarrassing OS under the hood. One of the few operating systems that was actually ENGINEERED well from the ground up was BeOS, but that didn't fair well against Microsoft's marketing.

    The fact is, "Linux" lacks coherency. It's not "Linux." It's a Linux kernel, some GNU tools over there, X11 bolded on over here, GTK or Qt slapped on over yonder... No two groups actually get together and decide to come up with an elegant system. Instead, they compete with each other, end up working around each other's mistakes, and then leave it up to the distros to try to make it all work together. Ha.

    I'll just tell you a dirty little secret from my experience with writing device drivers: The NT kernel's interfaces for handling devices like graphics cards, network devices, printers, and pretty much anything else you want to use, they put Linux to shame. NT may not perform as well, be as stable, or be as secure as Linux, but it's engineered with vastly more coherent internal structure. Linux is good code with poorly-designed interfaces, while Windows is lousy code with well-designed interfaces (actually, POSIX rocks, but I'm talking about kernel structure and device management).

  20. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by mbkennel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No kidding. I don't think the US has even thought about the turban part.

    Not enough TurbanWare makers in the districts of the appropriation committee congressdroids.

  21. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by jdray · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here's one problem indemic to the open source paradigm: Things like "beauty" or "ease of use" or "how you ought to do things" varies widely from one group to another. Getting everyone that develops an app for Linux to agree on one set of interface standards makes for a pretty steep uphill battle. Take a look at Gnome versus KDE: Where does an "Okay" button belong on a dialog box, left or right?

    The opportunity that the open source community has is to leverage the capacity for development that has made FOSS a viable contender for hard drive space to develop something entirely new in computing. Projects like Open Office and the GIMP are great, offering alternatives to commercial software where options weren't available before. And development of those products should continue, but to what end? Sure, there's value in being able to provide a drop in, no training required replacement for the Microsoft software stack if it can be done with open standards and security. But if all you're doing is following the development of major software vendors, you're relying on them to set the pace of innovation. Even the venerated Linus Torvalds made Linux because he wanted to have a Unix-like system running on his commodity hardware (yeah, yeah, let the hatemail come).

    So, tell me, where is the group that comes along and says, "Here's a new way of using a computer. Everyone come help us build it, it's gonna be great" ?? Why, after all these years, am I still forced to use the paradigm of paper-based documents (PDF, RTF, e-mail, web) to communicate most information, even if it never hits paper? Why do I have to gather information by reading text, line by line, down a page? Where's the visual depth to our digital world? Where's the alternative information delivery?

    And I'm not calling for a bunch of new input or output devices that will change the way we work with a computer, though those are needed as well. Given what we have (mouse, keyboard, monitor), we ought to be able to come up with something better.

    Take, for instance, the Civilization IV interface as a model for systems administration. Replace cities with servers, continents become networks, nations become domains, etc. Pan and zoom around your network, click on users to see what they're up to, double click on servers to look at their configuration and make edits to it, adjust automation, etc. etc. User apps have other opportunities for data navigation, communication, resource location, etc. But we've got to get ourselves off of the paper paradigm first. How do we do that?

    --
    The Spoon
    Updated 6/28/2011
  22. not much "hard to use" as "horrendously buggy" by xtracto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree with one of your points, and it is one of the main problems I have seen with the several Linux distributions I have tried. I am writing this from my Ubuntu 6.06 laptop installation. I just recently removed Windows completely on favour of Ubuntu after it told me that "Windows cant prove the legality of this installation" and it did not allowed me to enter to MY computer even in the so called "safe mode" after I added 1GB of ram (WinXP).

    The previous is to show you pissed off I *am* of Microsoft offerings... and my Windows XP is so legal I've got a sticker under my laptop with windows serial number for WinXP. Thats stupid behaviour.

    But now, returning to Linux, at least to Ubuntu. Since I installed I have had so *many* problems specifically with one of the things you say, the software is flakey, it is terribly unstable. The hibernating function works half the time and the suspend does not work (you see a whole paragraph stating that it is "experimental").

    My wireless card is *supposed* to be supported and although it IS detected (broadcom 4093) it does not work so I had to add a PCMCIA card, neither ALSA or ESD work 100%, they hang half the time consuming 99% of processor, Amarok sucks as it is terribly buggy, some random applications just "die" in the middle of use without any message (the window just *disappears*).

    I pondered on upgrading to 6.10 but then I saw all the reviews and issues people has been having. If you go to Ubuntu forum you can see a poll where there among 1/3 of the users are having issues, 1/3 are having major problems and 1/3 say everything is alright hence upgrading is playing roulette and if you lose your system might become unusuable (with a probability of 33%).

    I would give good money for a replacement of Windows, I would love it to be based on Linux but I need it to JUST WORK. I know OSX might be what I am looking for, unfortunately it is not available for my platform of choice (HP Pavilion notebook) so I cant get it.

    I love linux, I work in it more than 8 hours a day (at work and at home) but I believe it strength is also it weakness, as someone else wrote on the Ubuntu slashdot story we need a distribution that enforces TERRIBLY STRONG QA policies for its packages, I do not care if it doesnot provides the bleeding edge useless 3D-cube-rotating effects but I like it to WORK.

    I wont update to 6.10, I wont make a clean install neither (as someone else said, if you have to reinstall your OS each time it is updated then it is broken); i do not have time to spend "working for my operating system" I need an operating system that lets me do my work.

    The ubuntu setup I have let me do this at 70%, Microsoft Windows is not an option (that fuckers telling me my installation is pirated when it came in my HP NOTEBOOK). I have come to understand what a friend of mine said once when I asked "which OS do you preffer?" and he told me he did not like any of them. Oh well lets wait other 10 years, we might get to somewhere.

    Is anyone here as frustrated as I am? or is it really too much to ask what I want?

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  23. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by Ana10g · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wait, we can't use a wearable Turbine to go to mars? ::Takes off Turbine Hat:: Crap.

    --
    just an analog boy living in a digital age.
  24. You're crazy. Oh yeah, and selfish. by KingSkippus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm glad that a lot of OSS developers don't have the same mindset as you. It sounds like you're saying, "Who the hell cares if Linux serves the needs of other people. As long as it serves my needs, everything else is wasted effort."

    We as open source developers don't have limitless time and resources to spend making our software usable by everyone, or EZ enough for grandma to use.

    I've never seen it implied that you must. But if you want other people to use it, you're going to kinda have to make it easy enough for other people to use it. Maybe you're the type that doesn't care whether other people use your software or not. If so, then fine, write code that is as single-user (i.e. you) usable and obscure as you want, and don't sit around and scratch your head when you're the only one that uses it.

    Fortunately, a lot of OSS developers have decided that as long as they're coding something that's useful to themselves, they might as well make it a little prettier so that it's usable (or even developable) to others as well, and eventually, we end up with software that grandma can use. Maybe you don't care, and if so, fine, don't care. But if you're the one who has to pay for grandma's copy of Windows just so she can send an e-mail, you start to appreciate all of the time and hard work those OSS developers have spent doing something that you're incapable of doing.

    Linux doesn't have to become a product, it does not need popular appeal.

    Wow, is that ever a gross misstatement. How pretty does pretty have to be before you consider it crossing the line from being "designed for experts to use" to being usable by "the average person"? What if the guy (or gal, or group) who wrote, oh I dunno, IDE disk drive drivers decided that he didn't need to simplify those gnarly function calls, and that every time you wanted to open a file on Linux, you had to make some low-level interrupt calls? I mean the fact that you can just call a function named something like open() was just a simplification to make your life easier, right? Wasn't it just a way of increasing that programming languages popular appeal? Does that mean that languages that implement an open() function are evil or just a waste of time?

    I don't care how much of an expert you are, unless you're programming in assembler, you're standing on the shoulders of giants. And even if you are, you're probably still standing on the shoulders of a giant that wrote the editor you're using, the keyboard driver that's interpreting your keystrokes, the display driver that's showing you your code, and so on.

    So yeah, I find it incredible arrogant to essentially say, "Hey, you all have programmed it well enough for me to use, so if you make it any easier for other people to use, you're really just wasting your time."

    As for me, I'll gladly take whatever OSS developers give me in terms of ease of use, and I'll be extremely grateful for it, even if it's something I feel is pretty well developed already. And if grandma can use it too, all the better.

    Why must compromises be made so that Linux can be prettier and easier?

    I'm sorry, I must have missed the memo that said that now that Linux is prettier, you can't still run it as a lean mean special-purpose machine. What compromises are you referring to? What exactly is it that you can't do now in Linux that you used to be able to? What nugget of "expert" functionality was it that was removed that had you all up in arms now? Last time I checked, I could get just as down and dirty with the low-level stuff as I always could. Yes, even in Ubuntu.

  25. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by shmlco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless you're planning on creating a new ideomatic language and teaching it to the rest of the world, we're kind of stuck with that whole letter-word-sentence-paragraph thing. Which gives rise to the idea of a page or document or file or folder that encapsulates a bunch of them.

    Most sites or interfaces that try to overlay reality with other metaphors fail, usually because the metaphor doesn't communicate (why is the home page the "Town Hall"?) and because most graphical systems aren't as dense as text. To take your example, do I want to navigate a virtual building trying to find Fred's desk, or is it faster to find Fred in an alphabetic list and click on it.

    I actually expect search and metadata (aka Spotlight) to take us further than 3D spinning virtual worlds...

    --
    Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
  26. Speaking as an ex-Linux fan... by Ian-K · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For linux to catch on you really need to do away with all the tweaking of config files and all the config/make/make install.

    I speak as an ex linux fan who got tired of having to tweak a million things on every install so as to
      - get the soundcard working (plod along forums XYZ to find out that you need a kernel recompile, what a joy)
      - try one of 10 different hacks to get my logitech mediaplay to work under X (still haven't figured it out)
      - upgrade kde to 3.5.5 in SuSE. You need a phd to sort out the dependencies (yes, that was recent history)
      - be able to see & use the "network neighbourhood" (samba shares)
      - have NTFS write support, anyone? For my external HDDs?
      - etc. etc.

    So after losing a couple of days at work (re)configuring my brand new linux pc, thinking I'll eventually get rid of the silly windoze environment again and get back to good-old linux, I got fed up.

    So I stopped fiddling about, reassured myself that this is for people who've got time on their hands (like I used to when I was at uni), and popped a windows cd again. Took me 5 hours to get all my programs sorted and fully working (I do keep a fixed set of apps I install) along with all my hardware running smoothly.

    The bottom line: Not everybody has the willingness/time to mother-hen an alternative OS. As much as I like linux, I'll stick to windows until a better time comes (I have time to waste or I don't need kernel recompilations). Things like gui slickness are details. Both KDE (my fav) and Gnome are doing really well on that aspect.

    Or maybe I'm getting rusty. My real linux days finished with slackware (still my fav. distro) and suse about two years back, having used every single linux/unix distro there was, even irix/solaris (on SGI/Sun boxes :)

    --
    I'm no longer fed up with MS Windows: I go rid of them :)
  27. try WinObj and see what drive letters really are.. by pikine · · Score: 2, Informative

    Deep inside the Windows NT/XP kernel, it maintains an object namespace very similar to a Unix filesystem. You can use WinObj from sysinternals.com to navigate this object namespace. Notice that under the 'Global??' folder you will find the entries 'C:' and 'D:' and so on symbolic linked to the appropriate file system. Also, '\Device\*' in the object namespace is very much like '/dev/*' on Unix.

    It is evident that drive letters under an NT kernel is just a DOS compatibility after-thought. The kernel doesn't have concepts of drive letters.

    --
    I once had a signature.
  28. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by budgenator · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah like I really like how in windows app where hitting OK sometimes closes the present window and sometimes opens the child window.
    How about how if you open your browser, a single click on a hyperlink follows to the links URL, but the file-manager that looks just like the browser needs to double-click the links (shortcuts)?
    Here's a good one how about downloading an executable to a user's desktop, then right-clicking and run-as admin, ever try that it don't work, Windows says admin has insufficient privileges! Then you get sneeky and down-load it to a shared folder, and run-as, but that still doesn't work, you have to copy it into the shared folder, I've pleaded with every windows guru for 3 years to tell me how to do that, nobody knew! as far as I can tell I'm the only one! This is so unintuitive, admin is untrusted and to make a file shared, it has to be moved into a shared folder, and downloading into the shared folder doesn't count!

    I don't want to to things the "new" windows way, I want some sanity, I want the old tried and true, rational, expandable Unix way!

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  29. Some answers but why change? by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative
    * Where should I save my work ?

    In your home directory sorted in whatever way makes sense to you - or on an NFS share used by a lot of people for collaborative work named after the project, division or whatever - not F: M: or whatever windows shared drive which may differ between desktop machines.

    * When I install programs, where do they go ?

    If you get something that isn't available with the distributions package manager it depends on what it is. Local stuff only to be used on that computer goes in /usr/local, optional stuff like java, openoffice and commercial software puts itself in /opt with it's own installer, stuff to be shared with other computers (which you probably won't be doing) goes in /usr/share. If it is stuff that only you will use it can also go in ~/bin to avoid having to install as root.

    * Speaking of which, how do I install something ?

    All distributions now look on the net for what you want and work out all dependencies. On Fedora "yum install packagename" or a GUI tool from the system menu, on Ubuntu and Debian "apt-get packagename" or a GUI tool from the system menu, on Mandriva a GUI tool from the system menu - Gentoo (not for newbies and it turns unix veterans into newbies again) "emerge packagename", and so on for other distributions - even package management on solaris. If the package is not on the list you can still get it, download it, read the instructions and install it - but you don't have to live on the cutting edge.

    As for consistancy - it was called CDE - people liked choice more instead.

    All that said - applications are the entire reason to use a computer, and if you have to learn to use a lot of different applications it may not be worth shifting to a different platform. You can get a lot of linux functionality with cygwin and ported versions of rsync, find, grep, awk, ssh, ImageMagik (batch processing of graphics files) etc. With X windows on your MS Windows machine you can use all linux applications on your screen with the actual programs running on a linux box you are networked to - that's how people with MS Windows at my workplace run interactive graphical software on a cluster.

    In my workplace there were many people that just wanted to type reports and access remote machines - stability problems and MS Word formatting problems with embedded images drove them to linux. There are people that require specific applications that only run on MS Windows so they use Win2k or XP and X Windows. Linux is not MS Windows, has no registry (although g-conf is a misguided imitation done poorly and on a per user basis) has no C: drive and is different enough that your MSDOS specific knowlege will not apply - and the concept of doing everything with a GUI if difficult unless you are resticted to a few options or put incredible amounts of work in like apple. With a CLI you don't swear because the option you need to apply is greyed out because the developer didn't think of a paticular set of circumstances and then have to find and hack a text file anyway to get around it. A combination of CLI and GUI works well in a lot of circumstances and pipes let you do unexpected things quickly without having to buy/download a new program.

  30. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by AI0867 · · Score: 2, Funny

    twice a year?

  31. Re:Do or do not. There is no try. by bit01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some years ago somebody did a national survey to determine what the most popular/best font was. They discovered that in each city it was whatever the font of the major local newspaper was.

    People usually prefer whatever it is they're used to and will rationalize any way they can to justify that choice. The Windows DayGlo look and the more traditional Linux look are just two more examples of that.

    Personally, I dislike skinnability in general. If I can save a tenth of a second by having a conventional interface where I can find things quickly I'm all for it. Functional things are beautiful in themselves and for me eye candy doesn't even come close to competing.

    ---

    Don't be a programmer-bureaucrat; someone who substitutes marketing buzzwords and software bloat for verifiable improvements.

  32. Re:Sorry I can't help myself. by montyzooooma · · Score: 2, Funny
    "Which of the "Internets" is "The Google" on anyways?"

    Second pipe on the left.