MSN Music Purchases Not Compatible with Zune

lewiz writes "The BBC is reporting that music purchased at MSN Music will not play on the new Zune music player." From the article: "The problem has arisen because tracks from the MSN Music site are compatible with the specifications of the Plays For Sure initiative. This was intended to re-assure consumers as it guaranteed that music bought from services backing it would work with players that supported it. MSN Music, Napster, AOL Music Now and Urge all backed Plays For Sure as did many players from hardware makers such as Archos, Creative, Dell and Iriver. In a statement a Microsoft spokesperson said: 'Since Zune is a separate offering that is not part of the Plays For Sure ecosystem, Zune content is not supported on Plays For Sure devices.'"

Comments

Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[Anonymous Coward]

People keep saying DRM isn't inherently evil. Why?

Over the past week, I've heard a number of people claim that there's nothing inherently evil about DRM: that it's just a neutral tool, and you can do good or evil things with it. I'm always a little surprised to hear this. After all, the media cartel calls it "Digital Rights Management;" that kind of Orwellian doublespeak makes it hard to think positive thoughts about it.

The point of DRM is to keep someone from making full use of some data they have, and I can't imagine what's good about that. It's certainly bad when it keeps me from putting my music on all my devices. It's bad when it keeps me from recording the TV shows I watch, too. And even when it has potential security applications, I think it's bad. Sure, a company could use DRM-like technology to keep its internal correspondence away from competitors and journalists. But do we want to live in a society where the New York Times can't get a copy of the Pentagon Papers?

If DRM isn't inherently evil, it certainly doesn't have anything going for it.

Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[ResidntGeek]

that kind of Orwellian doublespeak makes it hard to think positive thoughts about it.

Then you're not trying hard enough, comrade!

Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[WilliamSChips]

No, that's encryption. Encryption is Alice sending a message to Bob while preventing Eve from seeing it.
DRM is Alice sending a message to Bob while preventing Bob from seeing it.
DRM is a (moronic) form of encryption, not the other way around.

Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[DeadChobi]

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Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[LinuxIsRetarded]

The point of DRM is to keep someone from making full use of some data they have

No, it's not. The point is to prevent illegal distribution of copyrighted material. The drawbacks of its implementation may include preventing a legitimate licensee from playing the audio or video files on his/her various devices, but that is most definitely not the original intent.

Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[Secrity]

"The drawbacks of its implementation may include preventing a legitimate licensee from playing the audio or video files on his/her various devices, but that is most definitely not the original intent."

It might be possible that it wasn't the original intent of content providers to use DRM to force users to buy multiple copies of the same material in order to use it on multiple devices, but I am sure that they now consider it to be a dandy feature; a feature that they don't want to lose.

Re:Yes, DRM is inherently evil

[Baricom]

The problem is that many people fail to see that locking WMA files to Microsoft Plays For Sure devices is essentially no different than locking your DVD purchases to a DVD player.

First of all, DVDs aren't locked to a specific DVD player - DRM-infected media is. Beyond that subtle point, I agree with you - that's why I don't buy encrypted DVDs.

So, classified government documents are inherently evil, too?

No, but the privilege of keeping documents secret is abused far too often. I would argue it's abused more often than it's used correctly. Of course, because I don't get to see what's classified, I can't know this for sure.

If you want to own a copy of someone else's intellectual property

Hold on there. The property belongs to the public; we're just renting it to the creators for a limited amount of time to reward them for benefitting the public good.

The intellectual property isn't anything you have a human right to

The Constitution of the United States would seem to disagree with you. It may not be a human right, but it's a granted right nonetheless.

if you don't like the restritions, don't make the purchase. It's that simple.

It's not that simple. The movie in the movie theater, the music on the CD, and the software in my computer? I own it, along with my neighbors. By intentionally making it hard to use, the media companies are stealing my property from me. It's no different than if I borrowed your car and forgot to return it for your entire lifetime.

The rich media companies would like you to believe that they are hounded by criminals every day, but that's simply not the case. They are the guilty party.

And no, I'm not a troll.

the obvious joke...

[suzerain]

This would of course be a huge problem...if MSN Music had any customers.

Re:I can only say...

[vancondo]

Thats ok, I'm smart, I buy my music from itunes so I'll never run into a problem like this..

-
Anyone need a batshit insane realtor?

Re:No Way!

[mpapet]

You fail to understand that "Plays For Sure" and all the OEM suckers that bought into it were simply a part of MS's larger experiment.

Zune is, practically speaking, a DRM 2.0 for MS and entertainment mega-corps.

Which goes to show you how much MS actually values companies using their platform in 2006.

Re:Not a good customer retention idea...

[El Torico]

They're trying to gain market share in a highly competitive market that has one dominant company (I think we all know who), but are unwilling to make the product compatible with their existing service. WTF?

Then they go on with this -

The software giant said it would commit millions of dollars to making Zune a success but acknowledged it could take a long time for that success to become apparent.

They could save a few of those dollars by applying some basic business sense.

Article writer lacking in reading comprehension

[Deathbane27]

"Since Zune is a separate offering that is not part of the Plays For Sure ecosystem, Zune content is not supported on Plays For Sure devices... We will not be performing compatibility testing for non-Zune devices, and we will not make changes to our software to ensure compatibility with non-Zune devices."

I fail to see anything the article says being backed up by anything Microsoft said.

It says the Zune marketplace content is not Plays For Sure content. It does NOT say that the Zune is not Plays For Sure compatible.

Re:Article writer lacking in reading comprehension

[MojoStan]

I fail to see anything the article says being backed up by anything Microsoft said.

It says the Zune marketplace content is not Plays For Sure content. It does NOT say that the Zune is not Plays For Sure compatible.

Yes, the article's submitter lacks reading comprehension, but other articles have made it pretty clear that Microsoft's Zune player will not play PlaysForSure content. Your comment isn't explicitly claiming that Zune players will play PlaysForSure content, but some readers might think it's possible. It's almost certainly not. Zune has been hyped by MS for some time now and will launch in just 8 days. Don't you think PlaysForSure (content) playback would be a great big feature that MS would hype for its Zune player? I'm hoping MS comes to it's senses and adds PlaysForSure compatibility to Zune players at a later date.

Anyhoo, here's part of an Engadget interview with J Allard, MS Corporate Vice President, that discusses the Zune player's compatibility with PlaysForSure content. To me, Allard's answers seem like evasive bullshit mixed with promotional bullshit, but it's pretty clear the Zune player will not (initially) play PlaysForSure content:

===================

So up until this point Microsoft's digital music strategy has been largely to create an ecosystem and be a supplier of a DRM platform to manufacturers and online music stores. PlaysForSure was the thrust of Microsoft's strategy until the announcement of the Zune. How does PlaysForSure fit into Microsoft's strategy going forward? It doesn't appear that the Zune will be compatible with any PlaysForSure retailers. How does that affect Microsoft's current partners who rely on PlaysForSure?

I think there's two answers to the question. First answer is, this whole digital music revolution is really just starting. There's still a lot to be figured. We certainly don't think we have it all figured out, and we think there will be change. The second thing is that specifically when it comes to PlaysForSure, think about you might buy a Windows PC versus how my mother might buy a Windows PC. My mom calls up Dell and says, "I have seven hundred bucks, get me a computer. What's the best thing I can get?" She doesn't specify the keyboard, the monitor, the memory configuration. The conversation might get as specific as, "Do you think you want to burn DVDs?" Then she gets a product that shows up and it's all pre-installed.

There are other people that go to Fry's Electronics and hand pick the graphics card, the case for their computer, they build a Windows-based PC from the ground up. We have a solution for both of those things. We at Microsoft have a platform that is Windows, we have a solution for the crowd of consumers that are very deliberate about how they build their PC solution, and we also have a solution for people who just want turnkey. And I think that's how these two strategies complement each other. The PlaysForSure is still a program we're going to invest in, we still have a lot of partners there, and for a class of consumers who that want to have a hand-crafted media media experience and maximize their choice, we have an answer. There's another class of consumers that just want to get digital media, and they just want to be able to go to one store and have it all just plain, dead simple, and don't want to know what a codec is.

Wasn't that the point of PlaysForSure?

Well, it's like asking a question about Windows -- and the point of Windows was to bring personal computing to the world -- some people are going to pick their PCs, they're going to pick their monitor, they're going to pick their printer, they're going to pick their graphics card, and combine the things that they've chosen. Other people just a want a system that's end-to-end -- all compatible out of the gate -- and that's what Zune

Re:Another reason

[bigbigbison]

I've more or less just sworn off buying music period. The last time I went to buy a cd, I spent ten minutes examining the small print to make sure it wasn't broken with copy protection of its own.

Call me crazy but I don't want to feel like an untrusted criminal for BUYING music. Treat me like a criminal, then I might as well act like one.

dumb meets dumber

[v1]

a Microsoft spokesperson said: 'Since Zune is a separate offering that is not part of the Plays For Sure ecosystem, Zune content is not supported on Plays For Sure devices.'"

Just when you thought microsoft could not pull anything stupider than they had lately... I mean really, what is this? Yes we have here a standard and we are backing it and we are making it the universally compatible technology, but wait, except for this major new product we're releasing. Doesn't this just incredibly piss off everyone - the customers, the manufacturers, the retailers? What on earth could they possibly be getting in exchange for all this horrid customer ill-will?

Bad Bill! No cookie!

Re:No Way!

[TubeSteak]

FTFA: Microsoft has said it will stop selling music from MSN music from 14 November, when Zune goes on sale in the US.
...
From 14 November, customers on the MSN Music store site will now be redirected to Zune Marketplace or, as part of a 2005 legal settlement where Microsoft agreed that no music service would receive greater promotion than RealNetworks, Real Rhapsody.

MS just fscked everyone who got onboard with their PlayForSure program. This move only makes sense if MS decided that the ill will generated by screwing all their existing customers is outweighed by the the marketshare they'll gain from Zune

Not sure I believe that.

[Kadin2048]

All depends on whose Kool-Aid you're drinking.

I find it impossible to not believe that one of the key selling points of DRM, is that it forces a consumer to re-purchase the same content over and over and over.

You want to listen to a track on your portable player? Sure, $1.
Want to listen to it on your cell phone? $2.50.
Want to burn it to a CD, maybe another $0.50.
Want to stream it over the internet, so you can hear it from your office/friend's computer/wherever? You're S.O.L.

You say it's to prevent "illegal distribution" but I'd argue that it could just as easily be to prevent format and space-shifting, since the 'loss' due to format shifting (if you consider the income that they wouldn't receive as a result of space and format-shifting a 'loss') is probably equal if not greater than the losses due to interpersonal sharing. With 'ideal' DRM, you could charge consumers per-track, per-listen, and then charge for every format and every possible way to enjoy the content. The revenue possibilities are unimaginable. Only the shortsighted see it as just a method to prevent seventh-graders from swapping discs.

At the end of the day it's academic whether the intent is to prevent "piracy" and it also prevents format-shifting, or whether it's intended to do both from the vary beginning. In most implementations, it does do both.

In my mind, regardless of what effect it might have on piracy, if it curtails established consumer rights or Fair Use, then it ought to be unacceptable. My ability to listen to the same piece of legitimately purchased music in various locations and in various formats is not an 'acceptable loss' in some epic battle between the valiant protectors of Intellectual Property and the American Way and the Evil Pirates.

Enough's Enough!

[Cytlid]

Aww cut em a break, people! They're, you know, redefining themselves. Being hip and cool-like. Like the next Apple! Or those crazy Linux and open source people, all get to do it, wether it's a new distribution or waay out in left field with the *BSD fruit. Why don't you all find another mega billion dollar company to pick on!

Re:I think Microsoft should have called it ...

[TheJorge]

I've always liked "Pays for Sure" as a bit more informative

They want to be apple

[insomniac8400]

They are copying the ipod model and want to crush it. The problem is more than ever people are getting tired of the whole one manufacturer/style bit. They want variety. All microsoft is doing is making sure the zune doesn't have a chance. If people want a player locked into one store, they will get an ipod. Microsoft should release the zune to be compatible with all stores and even set up a team just to crack itunes drm so they can continually make the zune itunes compatible. Then the zune would have a chance. Hell they could strike deals with the media companies to be allowed to strip fairplay from a file and lock it with their own drm all in one process.

Re:They want to be apple

[Golias]

If people want a player locked into one store, they will get an ipod

That must be what they want, then. Because people are still mostly buying iPods. They are not just out-selling all the other players. They are outselling all the other players combined.

Why? I couldn't speak for others, but I know why I bought one.

1. The user interface is simply better. It's not even a vaguely subjective thing. It's better. I've yet to meet anybody face-to-face who honestly believes otherwise.

2. iTunes is a darn good media player on my computer, and the iPod works with it seamlessly.

3. They finally fixed that damned gapless playback issue.

4. Though I prefer buying CD's and ripping them as lossless files, iTMS is kind of spiffy for one-hit-wonder pop tracks.

5. It's easy to get peripherals for it. I have a car charger which doubles as a cradle and triples as a very good FM transmitter. My iPod + the Ford stock stereo makes the perfect "pull-out" audio system for my dashboard. I just take the whole iPod with me when I park, leaving my El-Cheapo radio and a strange-looking plastic stand in the car. It was the best of several just like it from different manufacturers. With no other portable music player do I have half as many options for gizmos like that.

6. My 80GB iPod plus my RAZR together take up less space than my first cell phone did by itself.

Re:I can only say...

[Firehed]

So then use one of the several DRM-stripping utilities. Or take comfort in the fact that if they modify their license in such a way and it retroactively effects your previous purchases in a negative way, you can almost certainly take them to court over it (despite what may or may not be in the EULA; I wouldn't know if it contains a clause about that, not being able to read legalese nor caring enough to find out).

I'm not saying you're wrong here, but it's not the world's most difficult problem to solve.

Re:Embrace and extend comming soon

[mollymoo]

Before you flame me for not citing sources, RTFA; or, at least, RTFS, that's all I read and I picked up on the fact that it was stated that PlaysForSure devices would not play Zune music, while it was never stated that the Zune would not play PlaysForSure content.

It must have taken you twice as long to be totally wrong as it would have for you to have RTFA. If you had RTFA and got to the third paragraph before you tiny brain overflowed, you have read this: "But in a move that could alienate some customers, MSN-bought tracks will not be compatible with the new gadget."

And no, I didn't RTFA, I see no reason to,[...]

Here's a reason to RTFA: You might look alightly less like a complete and utter fucking moron.

Plays For Sure

[DieByWire]

For very small values of 'for sure.'

Re:I can only say...

[iamacat]

You have bigger problem than DRM if you are filtering your wife's Internet access. Technically smart or not, she has as much right to shop on whatever sites she wants as you. Talk about unreasonable restrictions...