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Coal — The Other Alt Fuel

This Wired piece is really a round-up about Coal: The Other Alt Fuel. One of the main stories is about an initiative to convert low-grade coal to other uses — like diesel fuel and so forth, but of course that nasty issue of carbon production comes up again.

22 of 135 comments (clear)

  1. Write much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    These are Wired piece that is really a round-up about Coal: The Other Alt Fuel.

    English, motherfucker! Do you speak it?!
    1. Re:Write much? by SoVeryTired · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's quite impressive that you managed to sound like Samuel L. Jackson *in text*

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  2. The issue is not the pollution by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The issue is whether we can sustain our usage at current levels indefinitely. The answer is of course, no. Can we then sustain current usage until a substitute energy source comes along? Possibly.

    In the meantime, coal will have to do, but we need to keep an eye on the clock because the longer we push off the transition to sustainable fuel sources, the sooner we'll hit the limits of our environment.

    1. Re:The issue is not the pollution by mgv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The issue is whether we can sustain our usage at current levels indefinitely. The answer is of course, no. Can we then sustain current usage until a substitute energy source comes along? Possibly.

      I've spent a bit of time reading around this area, and I think you can divide the problem into a couple of areas

      1. Depletion of reserves

      A big problem. Oil will run out, its really a question of when. If you believe the Peak Oil proponents, we may well be in a depletion phase already. Certainly May 2005 was a peak in production which we have not yet exceeded, and the longer this goes on for the more likely that it was the true peak. Also we are currently consuming reserves at 4 times the rate we are discovering new one sources. It is unlikely that we will ever find another major producer like Saudi Arabia, and so if we haven't hit peak, we will soon enough (in the next 10 years). After that peak, we probably have 20 years or so of decreasing production.

      With oil reserves limited, attention is turning to other energy sources. Natural gas and Nuclear Power are the obvious choices.

      Unfortunately, natural gas isn't infinite, and while it will last a while, its loss will be accelerated by oil substitution. In other words, it will peak not long after whenever oil peaks.

      Nuclear power is contentious, difficult, and actually not in infinite supply. The world would consume all the nuclear power in a couple of decades; and there isn't any easy way to make its energy available for transportation.

      2. Ecological Damage

      Whilst all this stored energy will run out, the bigger question that we face is: Can we really afford to ever actually use all these sources without damaging the environment too much?

      Carbon Dioxide emissions are a big concern. A recent article highlights the rapid rise in CO2 that we are producing right now. Its hard to see how we an avoid terraforming the planet (in a nasty way) with current consumption of fossil fuels. There are options such as sequestration or even shading the planet from space, but its hard to know which country is going to start this process off. Perhaps more economic solutions exist, but for now all these solutions are just theories, and nobody is doing any of it yet to my knowledge.

      Environmental damage from renewable resources is still an issue. Wind farms make noise and kill birds, hydro power floods large areas of the environment, solar takes out alot of space and uses a great deal of non-renewable resources to manufacture. Nuclear comes with its own set of environmental problems.

      Coal, historically, is the worst offender. Most coal mines have killed more miners individually that all nuclear accidents in the world have done. Coal contains radioactive isotopes, and coal powered stations actually release a substantial amount of radiation. Also, there are a great deal of pollutants in coal - its not a really clean energy source; and in fact causes more CO2 and less H2O release as its mostly carbon - unlike natural gas, which has a lot of hydrogen in it and therefore has water as a waste product of combustion which is much better than carbon dioxide.

      Renewable alternatives

      The renewable resources all have problems.

      Bio Diesel (and/or ethanol) is a really promising alternative, but will require huge amounts of land to be converted to fuel production to support this - perhaps as much as 25% of the surface area of the US would be required to support the US at current rates of usage. In this sense it suffers the same problems as most renewables - environmental degredation. Its hard to know where all the fresh water is going to come from to grow this fuel, let alone the land. On the

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      There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
    2. Re:The issue is not the pollution by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The issue is whether we can sustain our usage at current levels indefinitely. The answer is of course, no.

      Sure we can. It's called Nuclear Fission.

      What would you rather deal with? An energy source that dumps massive amounts of CO2 and radioactivity into the atmosphere or an energy source that is carbon neutral and produces nuclear waste that can be reprocessed into more fuel and/or stored somewhere (i.e: it's not released into the atmosphere)?

      There's no reason to accept a reduction in our standard of living and there's certainly no compelling reason to use coal over fission. We know that the waste can be reprocessed (the US just chooses not to), we know that the technology works and is safe. We also know that coal dumps massive amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere.

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    3. Re:The issue is not the pollution by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      With oil reserves limited, attention is turning to other energy sources. Natural gas and Nuclear Power are the obvious choices.

      Unfortunately, natural gas isn't infinite, and while it will last a while, its loss will be accelerated by oil substitution. In other words, it will peak not long after whenever oil peaks.

      Nuclear power is contentious, difficult, and actually not in infinite supply. The world would consume all the nuclear power in a couple of decades; and there isn't any easy way to make its energy available for transportation.

      Have you ever heard of fuel reprocessing? Have you ever heard of breeder reactors that use U-238? How about using thorium? Estimates are that we have anywhere from 10,000 to 5,000,000,000 years worth of nuclear fuel remaining with these technologies that are largely already available. If by "contentious" you mean "NIMBY" then I suppose people will have to consider whether or not they'd rather accept a lower standard of living or nuclear power. I choose the latter.

      Geothermal, hydro and tidal power all have much promise, but many parts of the world have no access to any of these options.

      Some people think that hydro power winds up dumping almost as much greenhouse gas into the air (mainly methane) as a coal plant does. Why? Decaying vegetation in the reservoirs. In any case hydro and tidal are hardly eco-free options (and we've already used most of our hydro resources in the West) and geothermal spots eventually go cold.

      Energy is going to get more expensive. Transportable energy for cars, trucks and planes will be really difficult; and nobody is going to be flying around cheaply in 10 years time.

      I liked the idea of the hydrogen economy for transportable energy and nuclear fission/fusion for the backend (i.e: the grid). Whether or not hydrogen would scale (odds are it works for a SUV -- will it work for a 747?) is another matter and outside my area of expertise.

      In any case I don't see why nuclear isn't being seriously considered as an option. We know that renewables won't scale. We also know that nuclear technology works and properly used is safe.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:The issue is not the pollution by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Informative
      Nuclear power is contentious, difficult, and actually not in infinite supply. The world would consume all the nuclear power in a couple of decades; and there isn't any easy way to make its energy available for transportation.

      I'm not at all a nuke booster, but this isn't true. If you use breeder reactors you can convert non-fissile U238 to Plutonium, which multiplies your available fuel (U235) by a factor of hundreds. And it's not hard to transport electricity, it's just how efficient it is. Aside from copper cables, there's the possibility of cracking water to make hydrogen. Further out, maybe superconducting cables. Also you can make portable reactors on barges and move them to where they're needed.

      Lots of safety and political issues, but the pure science isn't a problem.

    5. Re:The issue is not the pollution by mgv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not at all a nuke booster, but this isn't true. If you use breeder reactors you can convert non-fissile U238 to Plutonium, which multiplies your available fuel (U235) by a factor of hundreds. And it's not hard to transport electricity, it's just how efficient it is. Aside from copper cables, there's the possibility of cracking water to make hydrogen. Further out, maybe superconducting cables. Also you can make portable reactors on barges and move them to where they're needed.

      I'm very sceptical about hydrogen. All our current hydrogen is coming from fossil fuels, and nobody really knows how to economically make it or store it. It destroys most containers it is in, and it is so light that you cannot compress it to a useful energy density without very strong containers. All of which make it moderately bad for cars and trucks, and exceptionally bad for planes.

      I think you could put induction coils under most roads in cities to recharge vehicles there, but I'm not sure that this will work long distance.

      Trains will work just fine - I'm expecting to see alot more of them around in the future as electricity works well for them.

      If you really think electricity is easy to store, why are people getting so interested in fuel cells for laptops?

      Michael

      --
      There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
    6. Re:The issue is not the pollution by Amouth · · Score: 2, Funny

      well i guess that we need to get that whole robot thing going soon.. so that we can have them vent in unison towards the sun..

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    7. Re:The issue is not the pollution by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 2, Informative
      If you use breeder reactors you can convert non-fissile U238 to Plutonium, which multiplies your available fuel (U235) by a factor of hundreds.

      The security implications of plutonium breeding make it unsuitable as a solution. And if you imagine fission scaling up to be the primary energy source, even with breeder reactors you still run out of uranium within decades, perhaps a century. Reactor safety is a huge issue (no, pebble bed reators are not as safe as fission fans tell you). And the waste problem remain unsolved.

      Thorium spallation in an sub-critical accelerator driven system is a possibility, with much greater safety and availabilty, but doesn't yet exist in practical form. Same for fusion.

      Photovoltatics, renewables, and efficiency improvements exist in practical form now.

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  3. Like a political season which never ends... by rednip · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I don't know about the rest of you but my TV market is flooded with these 'clean coal advocacy' ads. Seems that four or five times a night some 6 year old start to lecture me about the promise of 'clean coal technology' in *her* lifetime. Or another which tells me that emissions are down 40% but generation is up double (or something like that; he didn't mention that the industry fought really hard against those same pollution controls).

    Seriously, is this how the energy companies are spending their windfall profits? Campaign style fantasies, and 'facts', I just can't wait for the negative advertising, like how wind farms slow down the earth's rotation.

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    The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
  4. As a North Dakotan by alexwcovington · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Clean Coal" is a bunch of BS; the coal industry lobbies as much for relaxed pollution restrictions as they spend time implementing the air-quality mandates -- Even going to the point of flying in entire state legislatures for a meet-and-greet.

    I can appreciate the impact the coal industry can have on areas with depressed economies, but development must be done in an environmentally responsible manner; once the coal's gone, it's gone, but pollution damage can last a long time.

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    1. Re:As a North Dakotan by bhima · · Score: 2, Funny

      as long as that part include Conrad Burns' house I'm up for it.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
  5. Hg, S, Fe, NOx & CO by grolaw · · Score: 5, Informative

    To name a few of the really, really serious biproducts of Coal usage. Hg precipitates out from exhaust at an alarming rate (*those states with coal-fired power plants all have massive Hg and CH2-Hg contamination: see, http://www.dnr.mo.gov/pubs/pub2100.pdf/ and, http://www.moenviron.org/airqualitymercury.asp/ for one central US state's Hg warnings). Sulphur fom coal burning is the primary source of H2SO4 in acid rain that has decimated the lakes in the Northeast US and etched limestone (Cleopatra's Needle http://members.aol.com/Sokamoto31/ny.htm/ has been in NYC since 1881 and the two sides facing the prevailing wind have been etched free of inscription (perfect on all four sides when it was put it into place) due to acid rain) building materials. Nitrates (NOx) are the secondary sources of acid (HNO3 Nitric Acid being the most common) and a product of incomplete combustion of coal. About 75% of the coal-fired power plants scrub NOx out of the exhaust - but there appear to be no small-scale scrubbers consistent with vehicle use.

    Releasing more Carbon from the carbon sink is just one more addition to the ever-increasing load of greenhouse gasses on the planet.

    Iron - in its various forms will "poison" any catalytic converter small enough to fit on a vehicle.

    The cost of scrubbing or converting Coal into a cleaner-burning fuel is problematic and the energy used to scrub may well exceed the energy realized from the converted coal.

    1. Re:Hg, S, Fe, NOx & CO by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes but.
      Coal is a hydrocarbon. It is possible to extract the hydrogen from it and use it as a fuel just as you can extract hydrogen from natural gas.
      You can convert it into coal gas and filter that to remove the sulfur and mercury.
      The big question is will it be practical?

      You have one really big technical error.
      "About 75% of the coal-fired power plants scrub NOx out of the exhaust - but there appear to be no small-scale scrubbers consistent with vehicle use."

      NOx doesn't come from from coal. If you burn any fuel in at a high enough temperature you get NOx. Actually you can get NOx even when you burn pure hydrogen.
      NOx is made when atmosphere nitrogen is held at too high a temperature for too long. One of the ways cars used to try and keep the NOx low was to run a little rich and then use air injection or a latter a simple catalyst to the burn off the the extra hydrocarbons at a lower temperature.
      That is why early US emission controlled cars had such bad gas millage and performance. Now they use a 3-way catalyst, computer controls, and advanced combustion chambers to handle it. Gas turbines try and get the hot gases out of the combustion chamber as fast as possible so that the NOx doesn't have time to form. It is a very interesting problem. If you could just replace the nitrogen with helium it would make everything so much simpler.
      A car using gasoline or diesel made from coal shouldn't have any worse NOx emissions than using oil based fuel.
      Just like with the solar power stations there are problems but they should be looked at honestly. Even if it is a problematical fuel it could still be used as a feed stock for plastic production.

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  6. Fisher Tropsch by marcovje · · Score: 3, Informative


    Isn't the Fisher-Trops 65 years old already? Germans used it in WWII for aux fuel, and so did South Africa during the boycott (SASOL).

    The Club of Rome also named this as possibility in 1980 (I never read the first report, only the revised one)

    1. Re:Fisher Tropsch by drnlm · · Score: 2, Informative

      SASOL is still going strong here in South Africa. We have lots of coal, and it's quite expensive to import oil, so the whole process is still economically viable without the boycott. As a result, though, Sasolburg is one of the more polluted cities in the country (see amongst others the groundwork's 2002 annual report on this site.)

  7. green coal by hamburger+lady · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Venners acknowledges that the gasification process produces four times as much carbon dioxide as simply burning the coal.

    yeah, that's green all right.

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  8. Nuclear no longer an option by xtal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Barring serious economic recession (always a possibility), nuclear isn't really an option anymore. It takes awhile to get the plants online, and there would have to be a very large number of them built in a very short period of time. As an engineer, that'd be great news.

    Unfortunately, coal is about the only buffer fuel left that would take us over that hump that depleting oil supplies will leave. The hump gets worse every single day we wait ..

    People should have demanded Manhattan Project style investment into nuclear fusion after the last energy crisis. We'll have another chance soon.

    --
    ..don't panic
  9. What a loathsome article by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The "clean coal" industry must be rather pleased with this article. It reads almost like a press release - It's clean! It's efficient! It uses coal we already have! It's good for our military! It's cheap! And what a name, "green fuel". How can it possibly be bad, "green" is in the name!

    It's not until the 16th paragraph when then happen to mention that, oh yeah, this "green fuel" process will release "massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere" - four times as much. But don't worry, they'll be able to use a carbon-catching technology that doesn't even exist yet to make sure none of that CO2 actually escapes the factory. Right. There are dozens (if not hundreds) of coal plants operating in the US that aren't using the emissions reduction technology that's available now.

  10. Just point out by Colin+Smith · · Score: 3, Informative

    That none of our power stations (including nuclear, fission and fusion) are going to get much above 40% efficient until we stop treating waste heat as waste. Overall efficiency can be doubled to the 80%-90% region by selling the heat for industrial processes, domestic water, space heating and to power chillers which can distribute cold water in hot regions.

    Most of our electricity is used to create or move heat from one place to another. It's highly ironic that power stations produce more energy as heat than they do as electricity. With District Heating and District Cooling it's possible to distribute heat and cold such that the requirement for space heating and air conditioning is massively reduced.

    This isn't going to happen any time soon, economically it simply isn't worth while, it's much cheaper to dig up coal or pipe oil or gas. That could change with the flick of a pen though. At the moment every working individual pays 30%-40% of their income as taxation, get rid of it and add the equivalent level of taxation to fuel sources, in particular the non green methods of generation. The utilities will then squeeze every Watt out of the fuel, and customers will make sure they don't waste any energy either. As a side effect, people will become much cheaper to employ.

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    Deleted
    1. Re:Just point out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I remember seeing massive pipes in some cities in an East-European contry that were for distributing hot water to all the Socialist era housing blocks. It seemed odd to me until I understood that a hot water heater was a luxury (and probably still is for a large portion of the non-1st world countries).

      Every person in the housing block paid a percentage of the hot water bill (including amounts that leaked out) depending on the number of occupants in the individual apartment, since it was only metered at each building. Of course, during the Socialist times, I guess it was cost-effective since no one was technically paying a water bill.

      Outside of that kind of economic situation, I think the cost of building the distribution system (economic and impact on established cities) and operating lossses of heat during transportation make it unlikely that we'll stop wasting the heat generated. However, an industrial park located next to such a power plant would probably be reasonable and economical.

      There was an article a few months ago about a trash vaporizing plant being built in Florida that was going to sell steam to a nearby Tropicana plant. I imagine that if everyone looked at existing systems to determine where "one plant's trash is another plant's gold", we could reduce pollution and consumption of resources considerably (and enterprising individuals have been making fortunes doing this for decades if not centuries).

      However, I think that industry lobbies like the "Clean Coal" people hinder this because they oppose the requirements that would force them to be more effecient in the first place. If you can buy a carbon credit on the international market for less than the cost of installing scrubbing equipment, then you increase "shareholder value" at least in the short term. I wish the markets would come up with a "customer value" and a "downwind resident value" to measure the impact of companies.