Slashdot Mirror
Slate Pans the Wii, Slate Loves the Wii
thatguywhoiam writes "Slate's Eric Sofke takes a few considered shots at Nintendo's latest console. He claims the Wii Remote has major accuracy problems, which are compensated for by too-easy games. Meanwhile, just next door, Chris Suellentrop says the Wii is even better than the PS3. Check out both sides of the issue." From the Sofke article: "The new Nintendo's flaws make me question who the Wii's audience will be. Kids don't want embarrassingly easy games. Casual gamers of any age will bail out the first time their crosshairs go AWOL. And hardcore gamers like me aren't going to bother with a magic wand that makes us less efficient at killing aliens. For a console that wants to start a revolution, making users doubt their reflexes is a serious design flaw."
To be completely blunt, most of the control problems I have seen people have with the Wii have been problems with the user, not the interface. Much like the analogue stick (or the keyboard mouse before that) it will take a little time to get used to the input device.
I remember (back in the day) watching people flail around in Goldeneye or crash in Mario Kart simply by making too large of a gesture on the analogue stick; after you had a few games under your belt these problems went away. The Wii is fantastic, but it is a new way to control games; an input method that you don't have 20 years of experience using.
"And hardcore gamers like me aren't going to bother with a magic wand that makes us less efficient at killing aliens."
Is he pointing his remote like a gun and holding it to his eye as if it had crosshairs? Cuz otherwise, I don't get how you could miss anything; it has been pretty much effortless for me to aim and shoot in Rayman Raving Rabbids' gun games, for example. Anybody else having accuracy problems out there?
I also have trouble with the guy telling everyone what he thinks "mainstream" and "hardcore" people want. If you're gonna review it, tell us what YOU think. Seems a bit more relevant than what you assume grandma will think (unless, of course, you report on what your grandmother's impressions were, which would be much more valid, not to mention a pretty interesting idea).
Slashdot Pans The Wii, Slashdot Loves the Wii
OMG it's like when different people think different things... but on the same site! Whatever happened to good old fashioned values like Groupthink? :(
I ran into some accuracy problems for the first maybe 30 minutes when I got my Wii home. If you just take it out of the box and expect it to work with no tuning, you will definitely have problems. Of course, if you RTFM and follow the instructions, things are much better.
Basically, you have to be really careful about how you position the sensor bar in relation to yourself and the TV. I'm not sure there is much science behind it, but you have to make sure to get the sensor bar centered horizontally and at the front of the TV, but it also needs to be perpendicular to the way that you are aiming the controller. If it's a little angled, then things get a little messed up. The other big thing is that if you have other sources of IR than the sensor bar (like the sun, or anything that is going to reflect the IR from the sensor bar) then you need mess with the sensitivity of the wiimote and possibly cover things up (a lot of people on the gamespot forums recommend covering up any theoretical glass coffee tables that are between you and the system).
As for games being easier, yeah- some of the games do seem to START OUT easier, they get harder though (you wouldn't realize that if youre a typical sort of reviewer who only plays the first 30 minutes of a game though). You also have to remember that A: Nintendo is trying to rope in people who might have NEVER played a console game before in their ENTIRE LIFE. You have to make games easier for those people. B: Even hardcore gamers have never used something like the wiimote before, so everyone needs some time to get used to it. Look at how easy the first few levels of Super Mario 64 were- nobody was used to fully 3D analog control then either- but the game ramped up in difficulty toward the end.
I'm no blind nintendo apologist, but the Wii is a really fine system, and it seems like there are a lot of people who are either having legitimate problems with it because it's something new, and need to be set strait, or are just trying to set the console up to look like a failure, since it's doing something new.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
I wonder how many people having problems forgot to calibrate their wands.
You must A) tell it the proper position of the sensor bar (which should be as close to immediately below the TV, or directly on top of it, as possible, with on top being HIGHLY reccomended by nintendo)
and B) in most games, actually configure it if it needs accuracy. This usually consists of shrinking an area on the tv until it knows the size of your tv in relation to the sensor bar, but in Red Steel they use a more ingenious method. You're asked to look at things on all corners of the screen as part of the story so its harder to ignore.
But anyway, I wonder how much is simply calibration problems, or due to it being too far from the bottom of the tv?
While everyone's entitled to his opinion, some opinions are less generally applicable than others, and I suspect that Mr. Sofge's are among the "less" bunch.
...compared with the full-body workout of a game like Dance Dance Revolution, you're not getting any kind of exercise at all.
Every time I sighted down the controller at the TV, the crosshairs were off-center
This presupposes that you should be sighting down the controller to aim the crosshairs, which I contend is not how most people (myself included) will be using it. A light gun, since it mimics the feel of a real gun, should meet this standard. The Wiimote, since it mimics the feel of a laser pointer (roughly, at least), need not. When I point a laser pointer at part of a slide, I don't actually sight down the barrel before pressing the button. I point it at the intended target, turn it on, then adjust the aim appropriately. I'm sure if the laser was significantly off-line, it would be problematic, but as long as it's close, I don't really care. If there's an onscreen pointer, then I don't see this being a problem. It's certainly not going to be less "realistic" or "natural" than moving a mouse - in a plane perpendicular to the viewing plane - to aim a gun, and that's been the standard for FPS-style aiming for a decade and a half.
During a quest to catch a magical fish, the onscreen directions told me to cast my line by swinging the right controller back, then forward. And when the fish bit, a graphic showed me how to make a reeling motion with the nunchuk. I was annoyed when I couldn't shoot straight, but this was worse. The Wii is T-ball for gamers.
I hardly think that having games show you the appropriate controls to accomplish in-game tasks is unique to either Zelda or the Wii. While the growth of in-game tutorials might be criticized for leading to a dearth of quality manuals, it's certainly an effective way to learn how to play a game. So it shows you the correct motions to make to do something in the game. How is this any different than a manual showing you which buttons to press to accomplish something in the game? You still have to go and actually do it, after all. Besides which, Zelda as a franchise (recently, anyway) isn't exactly known for being a demanding twitch/precision control style of game. It's a pseudo-RPG in its modern incarnations. A little assist on the dextral mechanics for playing isn't really a bad thing.
After a few whacks, I realized that the Wii isn't asking me to simulate a realistic swing... [snip]
No kidding. I can virtually guarantee that a console which required a full-body workout to play games would be a dismal failure on the marketplace. It's one thing for DDR, it's another thing for a whole system. The idea behind the Wiimote, in my mind, is that someone can pick it up and play baseball as if he was actually swinging a bat. That's the part that's accessible to everyone who's gone bowling, or played tennis, or baseball, etc. That you don't have to do that doesn't mean the system's a disappointment. In fact, for a lot of people, that's probably an advantage: that means that the novel control scheme won't get in the way of having a good time.
(And I won't even touch the amount of criticism that Nintendo would draw if their console was completely inaccessible to, say, paraplegics)
Which is why I could hit one-handed home runs without winding up or following through.
Strictly speaking, follow through isn't a physical requirement for hitting home runs. Once the ball has left the bat, the bat imparts no more energy to the ball. It could stop the instant it was out of contact with the ball, and the ball would go just as far. Follow through is simply a result of swinging that mass around, and mentally focussing on follow through is what allows the actual impact to be smooth and at peak velocity.
If you translate this to something the mass of the Wiimote, you've still got exactly as much follow throug
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
Admittedly, playing an FPS with the Wiimote takes some getting used to, but once you do, you will never want to go back to dual-analog. I played through CoD3 over the last two days, and it took me a solid 90 minutes to get accustomed to using the Wiimote as is necessary to get through the game. However, once I did, the experience became so much more immersive and satisfying than it would have been otherwise (CoD3 is a pedestrian game saved by a cool control scheme).
I have played most of the major FPSs ever to come out. From Wolfenstein, Doom, Goldeneye, Half-Life (and mods), Halo, HalfLife2...etc ... On some, I have used a console controller, on others, I have used a PC. IMO, for FPSs, the wiimote is far better than dual-analog, but not quite as good as wasd+mouse.
Personally, I won't ever go back to using archaic dual analog ... even for Gears of War. In fact, I think that in 4 years, all the next-next gen consoles will be sporting Wiimote-like controls.
burrocrisy
and that would be what? Ruling by jackasses? Never has a slashdot misspelling been more apropos
Everyone I know who has used the remote has started off extremely dubious, but eventually been won over, and gotten used to it. It sounds like the Wii just didn't match up to what he wanted, instead of trying out what it was.
Yeah, you can set the sensitivity of it, and you need to tell it whether the sensor strip is above the TV or below it. You NEED to set those two things properly, but Nintendo makes that pretty transparent, IMO.
burrocrisy
and that would be what? Ruling by jackasses? Never has a slashdot misspelling been more apropos
slate is owned by microsoft
conflict of interest?
This is the Wii's biggest letdown--you don't need to stand up, leap around, or otherwise leave the warm embrace of your couch.
Actually, that's a huge advantage. It's cool that the game allows it (wireless controler) but doesn't enforce it. I would hate to come home after work, exhausted and tired, and have the game console force me to jump around. Sometimes I want to, sometimes I don't - and if the console respects that, bonus points for playing nice with me.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Boy, did they hit the head on the nail:
He says:
"I realized that the Wii isn't asking me to simulate a realistic swing. There's no reason to assume a batter's stance, and no reason to bother swinging the controller fast or following through--flicking the controller like a pingpong paddle works just as well. This is the Wii's biggest letdown--you don't need to stand up, leap around, or otherwise leave the warm embrace of your couch. The console senses motion, but compared with the full-body workout of a game like Dance Dance Revolution, you're not getting any kind of exercise at all."
PA says:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/11/13
I say:
He doesn't appear to understand a certain type of fun that videogames can provide. You _can_ decide to play it like Cartman playing WoW, or you could have fun. Your choice. He chooses to be a f***ing toolbox.
I'm not a Wii fanboy, but I have to say that article is pretty terrible.
"Every time I sighted down the controller at the TV, the crosshairs were off-center."
The Wii-mote isn't designed for this, period. While there is minimal configuration for the Wii-mote's sensitivity, there is no way to make the Wii-mote's pointer line up pixel-perfectly. The Wii-mote is pretty accurate, but it's more of a relative movement like a mouse. Games aren't designed to require pixel-perfect accuracy. If you needed pixel-perfect accuracy, you'd need a more complicated setup to calibrate for the size of your TV, the orientation of the TV and sensor bar, and to take in account the fact that players will be playing from different angles. It's just not needed.
While the Wiimote is pretty good, game companies need to understand its limitations - and this includes Nintendo. Wii Sports is a lot of fun, because it uses mostly relativistic movements of the controller. By contrast, Super Monkey Balls includes a lot of games that require precision aiming, like a gun. This does NOT work well. It was frustrating. So it depends what you use it for. It's a great controller, great functionality - but its limits need to be understood. Furthermore, I don't want to put as much energy into my game playing as many of the games such as Wii Sports makes you - usually I want to relax. Wii Sports/etc are GREAT fun, but I don't want those most of the time. So I hope that companies realize that that functionality should be supplemental, in most cases, to the game play, and not the be-all end-all of control.
-Daniel
It seems a general consensus is that a well-calibrated wiimote is very accurate as far as the hardware goes, but the first wave of games does not use this accuracy. Instead they all go for a kind of mouse gestures without 1:1 mapping off player movements to in-game movements. Of course this disappoints gamers who already dreamed of "real" sword fighting, golf, or tennis.
That the first games that are published for the Wii go this route does not surprise me at all though. First of all there is Nintendos initial main focus on casual gamers, which of course makes them emphasize more accessible games. The developers also need to come to grips with the controller, they need to understand a new kind of gameplay, and there also may be some hardware precision issues in the first Wii generation.
However if the wiimote is capable of precise tracking in principle, and it seems like it, then I am convinced that the second or third wave of games will go into completely new directions, and there will be games that will use precision movements for all kinds of stuff: sports like gold, tennis, or ballsports, sword (or lightsabre) fighting games, and things I am not creative enough to think of.
I for one cannot wait.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
Here is a choice quote from the first paragraph...
But the Wii, which is being marketed as the ideal system for newbies, made me feel like an incompetent novice. I don't blame myself. The ugly truth is that the Wii's already-legendary motion-detection system doesn't work very well.
Emphasis mine. That pretty much sums up the article.
I dont have super monkey balls but I have CoD3 and Rayman Raving Rabids and both feature FPS. So far I have had no trouble shooting or targeting. Honestly I think its easier to play FPS with the Wii controllers. I gave up on the Genre long ago because play on consoles sucked with dual analog. Perhaps Super Monkey Balls just implments thhe hardware badly.
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."
What are you talking about, precision aiming is where the WiiMote absolutely shines. I suspect you don't have something set up correcty. Oddly enough the "FPS" mini game in monkey ball features the best FPS control setup I have ever played (on a console). Red Steel, no so much.
My friend's suitemate got a Wii the day it was out, and I got to play Red Steel and Zelda. It was flawless. I could easily aim wherever I wanted and actually enjoy playing the game. Of course, I'd do it much faster and more precisely with a mouse, but it would be less fun , that's why they don't have mice on arcade machines. Also, last time I tried playing Halo or any other FPS on a PS2 - I couldn't play, because I just couldn't use the controller. For a first-time user, Wiimote is much easier to learn than dual-stick; it's faster to move around - and has the fun level which dual-stick will never achieve. In my opinion, he must have been clumsy or slightly impaired if he had too much trouble. Or maybe he was so used to dual-stick that he cannot accept anything else.
The only intuitive human interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned, including pen, keyboard, mouse, and gamepad. You just seem to forget the effort that you spent learning them because you learned them before age 12.
Ubisoft sucks.
Let's start at the begining. Play a nintendo game. Don't want to pay for it? Play Wii Sports. Wii sports is suprisingly spot on with it's controls (Zelda and excite truck is too). So that means the controller is good and the system is amazingly responsive.
Now let's look at the problem with the controller. Point the controller at the screen, can you hold it there for 3 minutes. I can't either. Know why? Because it's a new system. You're not going to completely master the wii mote in the first minute. It takes a couple hours at least. I'm pretty good with the control now, and I expect to get far better. Try holding up a hand and not moving it for 3 minutes, can't do that either right? Again it takes time and practice with it.
Now let's look at the games being too "Easy"? They might be simple (though Again zelda is far from simple) but they arn't "Easy". And why is that? Because companies didn't know how far they could push the new control scheme. You could program a Xbox 360 game years before it came out, because of a simple fact. It's the same as a Xbox control scheme with minor changes you tweak when you get the final dev kits.
As for unresponsive? Out of 4 games (including wii sports) the only unresponsive game was Red Steel, and that was hardly the only problem with that game. There was numerous problems with ubi's launch titles, either being graphically inept (both racing games). Being minigame, with out a real game (rayman) and being Red steel (with a number of problems). So the system sucks right? Well excitetruck showed that the system is more than a little good with racing games, Monkey ball shows we can have full games with mini games, and Call of duty 3 which looks weaker, is said to have the best controls out of all three systems.
The bottom line is that this is a NEW console, with radically NEW control schemes, just because reviewers have had it a week doesn't mean you'll master it in that time. You should already be better at it, and just like us, developers should be getting better and better at it. Just don't blame Nintendo for Ubi's crappy titles when Nintendo and Activision both prove the Wii is more than capable at holding it's own.
not the slashdot blurb but still what i was looking for clicky
No sig for you!!
The only intuitive human interface is the nipple.
Not even that. Just ask the first woman I ever got naked.
Perhaps life really is full of possibilities.
There's no room for funny when defending the honor of the Wii!
"I dont have super monkey balls "
Baaawhahahawww
Sorry.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
The only intuitive human interface is the nipple.
Spoken as someone who hasn't had a problem with a baby latching on to nurse.
I know it's a common cliche, but that doesn't make it right. There are multiple organizations out there because the nipple isn't an intuitive interface. La Leche League. Lactation consultants.
To bring this back to the Wii - yes, people will have to get used to doing something new. But people do that all the time.
Good luck,
=Blue(23)
LITTLE GIRL: But which cookie will you eat FIRST? C. MONSTER: Me think you have misconception of cookie-eating process.