Slashdot Mirror


Drugs Eradicate the Need For Sleep

MattSparkes writes "New Scientist is running an article on lifestyle drugs that claim to help you function on little or no sleep. I'm dubious, but the interviewee in the article claims they work well. 'Yves (not his real name), a 31-year-old software developer from Seattle, often doesn't have time for a full night's sleep. So he swallows something to make sure he doesn't need one.'" But, sleep is where I'm a Viking!

50 of 772 comments (clear)

  1. Hmmm... Not Good by eno2001 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If it's artificially interfering with a normal function of life and it's not involved in preventing a life threatening disease, it's just a bad idea. Myself, I only need four to six hours a night and I can function well. I actually natrually wake up after six hours even without an alarm clock. I've always been that way. If I really need to puch myself I can get by with two hours sleep. This is perfectly natural. Back in the 90s I read a book on sleep and it stated that most humans need the typical eight hours of sleep. It also revealed that in a few sleep studies where the subjects are kept from knowing the real time or seeing any cues (daylight), that they tended to sleep more on the order of 10 hours a night with their sleep cycle drifting an hour later each day (ie. they would go to sleep an hour later each day without realizing it). But, they did concede that every human is different and there indeed people who don't need much sleep and others who actualy need a lot more sleep than is culturally possible (13-15 hours a day) to be at their best. Sadly, humans are WAY too flexible in their traits which means that there is no "one size fits all" approach. In the case of this drug however, I'd say that it will be revealed eventually just how detrimental it's effects are while simultaneously being denied by the pharmaceutical companies that produce it.

    --
    -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
  2. Re:Not good..... by Golthur · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not that I necessarily agree with this, but Carl Sagan hypothesized in Dragons of Eden that mammals were originally nocturnal, and evolved sleep so as to be still (and thus more difficult to spot) during the day when the reptiles (which dominated all niches when mammals first evolved) were active.

    --
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.
  3. Re:pills for everything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Modafinal or provigil was created long before this study on using it for avoiding sleep. It is a drug used to treat narcolepsi. Some people wouldn't be able to work without it since they would fall asleep walking down the hallway. I took the drug once to help with the sleepy side effects of antidepressants. Provigil felt like taking speed and I was always hyperactive. I wouldn't recommend taking it.

  4. The real danger... by dropshot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    is if this works exactly as described. How long will it take until employers (or anyone who demands time in our lives) expects us to be available for 18 or 20 hour days? How disruptive would this be to society? If expectations change, anyone who doesn't want to disrupt their life to the extent that might be demanded will be at a competitive disadvantage.

  5. Re:Not good..... by Mprx · · Score: 4, Interesting

    REM sleep can't be necessary for memory consolidation, because monoamine oxidase inhibitors eliminate REM sleep, but not not impair memory even if used for a long time. Furthermore, this is a there is a case of brain injury which eliminated REM sleep but did not impair memory. http://www.npi.ucla.edu/sleepresearch/science/1058 full.html

  6. Re:Not good..... by tlhIngan · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I've always wondered about the need for sleep. For an animal to allow itself to go into an extremely vulnerable state every day for hours it must have a VERY good reason for doing so. The fact that sleep has been passed along in our genes even in the face of natural selection (sorry creationist museum) shows this. I think we've barely penetrated the real reasons for sleep.


    In fact, there are animals that don't appear to sleep, but actually do (dolphins, for example). What they do is sleep half their body and brain at a time. So there's obviously some benefit, as they've evolved the necessity to remain awake, but still get the sleep they need. (Unless it really happens to be some anomaly of evolution (another strike against creationism), like the appendix or spleen, that affects basically the entire population of living creatures). But I would think the dolphins proved otherwise, since they'd be the first to do away completely with sleep.

    But a concern is still the long term side effects. By playing with stuff like this, would it lead to mental insanity later on due to paranoia or schizophrenia? We are, after all, playing with the mental state of mind (I'm sure tired muscles still remain tired even after popping the pills, even though the brain says it's fresh). The fact that the miliary trials concluded that it's only useful to about 48 hours wakefulness seems to imply that it doesn't reduce the need for sleep, just reduces the feelings of the need for sleep/sleepiness. We may end up with a population of zombies in a decade or two's time.

    Anyhow, when did pill-popping become fashionable? I fear the day where it's "uncool" to not stick some drug in you as part of your daily routine in order to get through the day (as opposed to treating disease). Or the "there's a drug for everything" mentality.
  7. Re:Not good..... by Josh+Lindenmuth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You have excellent points. Unfortunately, now that many advertising restrictions on drugs have been removed, the drug industry can effectively push drugs onto Americans without rational voices such as your own being fairly considered. Combine this with human nature to succeed and excel relative to one's peers, and you have the possibility for us to quickly go down the path of re-engineering ourselves for excellence.

    The idea of everyone having an IQ of 300, being able to sleep 4 hours a week, and never getting sick may sound great to some, but where does it stop? After we've reached the point of greatly diminishing returns from drugs, do we turn to machines for enhancment? Do we augment ourselves with embedded computer chips, use genetic engineering to enhance our characteristics, or completely tailor our bodies and minds into something we can't even imagine today?

    This may seem far removed from sleep drugs, but I think it is a natural progression ... we are gaining the technology to enhance ourselves, and it will be a game of constant one-upmanship. Ethical discussions will prevent us from moving too fast, but I fear these concerns would have no impact on a slow progression towards turning ourselves into something unrecognizable as human by today's standards.

    --
    Huh? Don't mind me, I'm just the new guy.
  8. Re:Not good..... by BWJones · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, you *are* a eukaryote and most of us posting here on Slashdot are with the exception of those that have foed me I suspect. :-)

    Seriously though, worms, jellyfish and other "lower" invertebrates do exhibit periods of inactivity as do even prokaryotes such as bacteria. This period of "inactivity" is often crucial for normal physiological processes to occur. The important thing to note here is that through evolution, "higher" organisms appear to have accumulated a number of circadian clocks related to a variety of physiological functions and the "higher" up an organism is, the more clocks for various functions are accumulated.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  9. Re:Not good..... by BWJones · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But other studies have indicated increased performance in those subjects allowed REM sleep versus those subjects who have been selectively deprived of REM sleep. Other studies still have shown a reduction (higher efficiency) in brain metabolism in those subjects performing tasks who have been allowed REM sleep versus those other subjects who have been selectively sleep deprived. I am on a very narrow connection here and out of time for posting for now or I would find those references for you. But a simple Medline search should bring them up.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  10. Re:Not good..... by udderly · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My brother-in-law, in trying to cultivate his superman status, claims that he only needs 4-5 hours of sleep per night. But everyone who knows him knows that he goes into a semi-comatose state for 24 hours once per week. No real savings there:
    6 nights x 4.5 hours = 27 hours
    1 days x 24 hours = 24 hours
    Total = 51 hours/week

    51 hours/7 days = 7.29 hours per day (just like the rest of us)

  11. The other flip side of a no-sleep drug by inviolet · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So this pill will surely have some side-effects, and some of them will likely be negative. Fine.

    Now think about the value of your time. You get ~100 years here on Earth and that's all. You are wired to spend about a third of that time unconscious. An entire third of your life will be spent not doing or experiencing anything.

    How much effort do you expend just to shave ten minutes off your commute? Or to save three minutes standing in line?

    What, then, would 33 extra years be worth?

    --
    FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    1. Re:The other flip side of a no-sleep drug by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Absolutely 0. If my employers found out about all this extra time I'd just spend it all sitting in front of a screen anyway. At least this way I have a reason to come home every day.

    2. Re:The other flip side of a no-sleep drug by WilliamSChips · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, your experience is supported by evidence--people who concentrate on a problem right before going to sleep often figure out the solution to the problem after waking up.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  12. Re:Sleep debit by amrust · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm now in my late 40's and I can only sleep 6 hours, no more even if I try, but, I need that 6 hours or I cannot function.

    I know what you mean. I'm coming up on 40, and I've noticed that I sleep less now than I did 5 years ago. Which is scary, because I always assumed that the "getting older = less sleep" thing didn't happen until you were MUCH older.

    I guess we're all only as young as we feel, but still older than we think.

    --
    VOTE!
  13. Re:Not good..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    , like the appendix or spleen


    The appendix and spleen are NOT vestigial organs. While you can survive without them, your immune system is stronger if you keep them.

    You can survive without your right arm, therefore it's vestigial, correct?

    Statements like that (e.g., the appendix and spleen do not perform necessary functions) make evolutionists look stupid. Please research physiology before you try to prove evolution with misguided "facts."
  14. Re:The bugs! They are crawling up my legs! by corychristison · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This reminds me of the time I tried to stay awake for as long as I could. I hit 93 hours or so. Note that this incident did not involve any drugs. Legal or otherwise.

    I was still fairly young then, at the age of 14 or so. I was out with friends on the final night of my experiment and I started to see things and totally freaked out. One of the hallucinations was indeed a miniature pink elephant. As well I thought a tree was a very large spider. I have a terrible fear of spiders. After my friends managed to get me into the house and calmed me down, I suddenly got up and went out into the back yard to jump on the trampoline. It was -10 degree's Celsius or so and I was just wearing Jeans and a T-Shirt. I couldn't tell the difference. All I remember is having them waking me up and having to be rushed to the hospital. I was jumping on the trampoline and slipped. I flew off and cracked my head on a mound of ice. I'm just glad one of the springs didn't break or on the trampoline and hit me in the ass or something. It was fairly cold.

    I stayed in the hospital for the night as the thought I may have had a concussion. I still don't remember any of that week. What I told you now is what my friends have told me. I also heard that earlier on in my experiment [first 24 hours I suppose] I had exclaimed to my friends that my toothpaste had started talking to me the next day at school.

    Now I enjoy my sleep.

    Pills? No thanks. I prefer the natural method of recovering from a hard days work writing code. :-)

  15. Re:Not good..... by ArikTheRed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    My grandmother actually lived her whole adult life on only 3 hours a night. She went to bed at 2am every night, and work up at 5am. It was crazy, and not at all what she wanted - however, she was not an insomniac nor was she tired throughout the day. She visited several specialists, but no one knew why she didn't need to sleep... man, I wish I inherited that.

  16. Re:Not good..... by lawpoop · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've wondered about it too, and then I got to wondering just how vulnerable a sleeping animal is. If you're about and about, you're making noise, being visible, creating a scent trail. If you're well hidden, such as in an underground den, you can pretty much go unmolested by any animal that might try to eat you. If an animal tries to dig you out, you have plenty of advance warning. Consider how many animals hibernate during the winter. For a prey animal, being out and about is the vulnerable period.

    --
    Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
    -- Pablo Picasso
  17. Re:Not good..... by hey! · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In support of the nocturnal mammal evolution theory, our vision system has only three colors whereas most non-mammals have four. Birds that appear dull grey are sometimes brightly colored to others of their speices, because of their superior color vision. Losing a color, however, makes more room for light sensitive, b&w sensing rods.

    With respect to the risks of sleep -- perhaps. It may be that specializing for night or day is a better overall strategy than trying to be able to operate around the clock. Maybe you're a daytime animal that relies on speed. If you can't see at night that speed is less useful. Maybe you're a nighttime animal that relies on stealth. That stealth is impaired during the day. So, even without sleep, you'd be looking for a safe place to den up during your off time.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  18. Re:Not good..... by Doctor+Memory · · Score: 4, Interesting

    One thing I've noticed (which may or may not be real) is that my daughter seems to grow in her sleep. She'll enter a period (usually days) of increased appetite and activity, then one night she'll be very sleepy and go to bed early and I'll swear the next morning she's taller. She also has a definite decrease in stomach size, although whether this is related to fat-burning or an overall increase in body size I couldn't say.

    Again, all apochyphal information, I haven't actually done before-and-after measurements. Still, there's a noticable difference, and after the growth spurt her appetite and activity level return to normal. So sleep may be a necessary component of the body's growth/repair mechanisms. It would be interesting to see if people who take this sleep-counteracting compound take longer to heal.

    --
    Just junk food for thought...
  19. Re:Not good..... by amliebsch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I guess it boils down to this:

    Is the requirement of sleep enforced by our brains because it is
    (a) an irreducibly necessary part of living for physiological or neurochemical reasons, like breathing, or
    (b) a behavior that was evolutionarily advantageous in the wild?

    If (a), then these kinds of drugs are very troubling. If (b), then I would probably have no more qualms taking these than, say, a pain-killer.

    --
    If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
  20. Re:Not good..... by khedron+the+jester · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The spleen functions in the destruction of old red blood cells, but what exactly does the appendix do? I am only a (English) sixth former, so I don't learn things like that, and the Wikipedia article says little. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spleen

  21. drug the followers by zogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Germans used amphetamines in ww2. It's not much of a secret that armies have used drugs since they became available. Originally all they had was booze and stuff like magic mushrooms (berserkers), but it's been going on a long time. The scary stuff to me is the reverse manchurian candidate stuff,the work to make drugs that make them lose all sense of right or wrong, just follow orders, no matter what the orders might be.....anything... then blank out the memories so they don't suffer remorse or PTSD type effects.

  22. Re:Not good..... by Frangible · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Exactly. Sleep-cheating drugs are nothing new-- look at methamphetamine. It's about 100 years old and is very effective, moreso than modafinil, for treating narcolepsy. People stay up for over two weeks with it (nevermind 48 hours!) but after a point an interesting thing happens where the brain hemispheres start taking turns shutting down and going into REM sleep. To the user, half their brain is dreaming and the other half awake, leading to an odd fused state of hallucinations that cannot be distinguished from reality. It's interesting to note this same behavior happens in some mammal (I don't recall which) that naturally does not sleep.

    Beyond the acute effects though most mammals pushed through drugs like meth to avoid sleep simply die in studies after a month. The circadian cycle is needed for proper homeostasis. Sleep deprivation causes symptoms of ADHD (ironically, treated with stimulants), obesity via lower leptin and higher ghrelin levels, and a very nasty cycle of altered immune, inflammatory and glial response.

    One other interesting thing to note is that the human circadian cycle specifically tracks dawn and dusk, via the CLOCK genes mPer1 and mPer2 -- mPer1 being dawn and mPer2 being dusk. If there is no gradual "dusk" period before sleep, direct changes in gene expression -- outside of sleep deprivation -- result in a persistently lowered level of tyrosine hydroxylase, interfering with dopamine levels. Dopamine is of course a neurotransmitter associated with motivation, goal seeking behavior, wakefulness, attention, etc. So therefore perish the dusk, perish the dopamine. And yet this commonly happens -- artificial lighting, computer / TV screens, etc right up to the moment of sleep destroy melatonin production and any sort of proper expression of mPer2 activity. Over time this results in low cortisol and catecholamine levels during the day (fatigue), higher levels at night (as the melatonin/hormonal peaks become disturbed), and increased hunger/activity during the missing dusk period, as you in essence train the natural oscillation to favor alertness at that time -- when it cannot be sustained.

    Taking stimulants, be they modafinil, the neurotoxic ampakines, or amphetamine, only partially reverses some of these things. They increase neurotransmitter and cortisol levels -- but also do this when their levels should be lower! Chronic levels of cortisol alters body composition to favor muscle catabolism (breakdown), fat retention, annihilation of the thyroid hormone T3 into reverse T3 thus fucking up thermogenesis and the metabolism, and causing atrophy of the hippocampus and disruption of memory. This also results in suppression of the immune system, increased inflammatory response, increased stress/anxiety, etc etc.

    Do any of these things sound like "happiness" you would take a pill for? Shut down the computer and TV, and artificial lighting sources at least an hour before bed. Relax, in dim light. Train yourself with a normal schedule in sync with the sun. You'll have greater alertness during the day, lower hunger, higher energy, better memory, and sleep better.

    We are a nation of stimulus junkies, always wanting to be entertained by something novel, with no thought for relaxation, rest, or recovery. When our novelty seeking behaviors disrupts our normal diurnal behaviors, the answer isn't to take drugs and start the cycle anew, but to perform these behaviors in moderation and balance.

    Try turning off your electronic shit a bit early tonight and relaxing before sleep at a normal, consistent time. In a week, you'll be surprised at the huge difference it makes.

  23. Re:Not good..... by unPlugged-2.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hmm you make good points but not all of them are correct. Human sleep has evolved based on the culmination of past requirements for survival. This meant that not being out at night was most necessary for surviving the predators of the past. Now there are obviously a lot of other factors that come into this such as the earth's magnetic field and also our body's own circadian rhythm which is tied up with other factors most of which are genetic.

    Also in terms of the stages of sleep mainly REM that is not always the way the body needs to progress through the phases. There is a method of sleeping called polyphasic sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep which can actually change the cycles and steps needed to get to REM sleep. Famous people such as DaVinci and Buckminster Fuller have professed to being on this pattern for years.

    Also I know this works because I have actually tried it for 2 months as an experiment. If work permitted napping during the day I would still be on it but unfortunately it does not. There is a great Yahoo group called the uberman mailing list that has a melting pot of people who have tried this method.

    So I think that sleep is not such a cut and dry science as some people claim. That is why some people can sleep only 4-5 hours a day and still be immensely productive while other need up to 12. It is a matter of mental brainwaves and like you said evolutionary approach to the sleep genre which will affect people differently.

  24. From a meth addict's perspective by halo1982 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm 24 now and has been prescribed amphetamines and various stimulants since I was six years old due to ADHD. First Ritalin, then as a teen I moved onto adderall, and then about two years ago I discovered this wonderful (italics for emphasis on sarcasm) drug called methamphetamine. I thought it was great, I could go 48-72 hours programming and get more work than I ever thought possible done and then crash for 8 hours, repeat. This wears on you after a few weeks and I'd start sleeping 14 hours, then 24, etc. Eventually I just kinda went crazy, lost my job, etc. At first I don't think it was the euphoria the drug induces that made it so hard to quit, it was the productivity it induced. I became addicted to getting 6 days of work done in 2, and then it all kind of went down hill from there. I've been clean 277 days and half of the time thats just because I cut off contact with all the people I could get it from. This is not something you want to mess with. While I think "meth is bad" is pretty universal, you would be surprised how many software developers I bought/sold to for the exact same reason as I. And I live in a smaller city, I'd think this would be much more rampant in major areas such as LA, New York, Seattle.
    Anyway the article this drug is about is Modafinil, also known as Provigil, a narcolepsy drug, which I've been prescribed for ADHD. And it does the same damn thing. Your body needs sleep, trust me I know, no matter what it is after two or three days your mind begins to break down. This drug certainly doesn't help with that, and if you RTFA (what are the chances of that?) the software developer in question mentions some of the things I pointed out. This worries me, greatly, because after going through a year of hell I'm now seeing articles like this discussing the potential for a "sleep-free" lifestyle, I have very little doubt in my mind that such a thing is not possible without great damage to the brain.

    I am not everyman and I do have an extremely addictive personality, but I've seen friends who don't (have addictive personalities) fall into the same trap as I did under the allusion of "work more, work faster, sleep is for wimps!"
    Anyway this is just my experience, but I thought I would share...

    1. Re:From a meth addict's perspective by furry_marmot · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Couple of things I thought I'd share. First, I've seen several of these articles, and I've also used modafinil on and off for almost three years. Sleep-free is an exaggeration. It can make a significant difference, but it does have side-effects (mostly headache and nausea) and it's not like your performance is quite normal, though it depends on what you're doing.

      For example, I've found that when I'm trapped at my desk and have to pull an all-nighter, it just doesn't keep me up all night. I think it's because of the lack of general physical movement. For all night sessions, I find working as late as I can (1am or 2am, usually), followed by 2-4 hours of sleep, gives me far more energy for the task than trying to get by with caffeine alone. And I'm far more productive than trying to push through without sleep at all. But your reasoning will get fuzzy, your memory will play tricks on you, and you can get kind of distracted after a while. The longest I stayed up with it was 38 hours straight. At the end of that time, I knew I was in a pretty bad place. I had a glass of wine, faded fast, and hopped into bed. I woke after 5 1/2 hours fairly refreshed. I was kind of out of it the next day, and I wouldn't want to make any important decisions or presentations in that state, but it wasn't bad.

      Recently, we decided to remodel the kitchen. We were running behind schedule (who doesn't), I was burning the candle at both ends because of work, and I needed to get part of the plumbing done to get the cabinets in place for the Corian people who were coming in two days. I used a half dose around dinner time and kept going with good energy until 3am. At that point I could have taken more and kept going, but I slept and finished the next night. An important point to note is that Modafinil/Provigil can stave off the urge to sleep, but cannot eliminate the need to sleep.

      When I was young and stupid, I would indulge in a variety of drugs for no particular reason. Meth (and I presume the somewhat more legal varieties of amphetamine) are good for focus and staying awake, but along with not eliminating the need for sleep, they also make subtle changes to your brain chemistry. My brother got hooked on meth, took it all the time, thought he was real cool. Then he started talking about "the mob" wanting to kill him, and how every dark sedan he'd see on the road was the FBI keeping an eye on him. When I, my other brother, and some of his friends tried to convince him to get off the drugs, he thought it was some kind of plot. He finally got sent home on a forced vacation and laid off the drugs for a while. It was about 2 weeks before he started questioning his delusions.

      It may sound like a joke, but amphetamine psychosis due to chronic use really isn't. It wears off after a couple of weeks, but while you're in it, you're particular form of crazy (my brother became obviously and overtly paranoid) will be absolutely indistinguishable from the real thing (that is, organic and not going away).

      Anyway (sorry if I got off-topic), Modafinil definitely does not have these side effects. And it won't leave you burned out or sleeping 24 hours, but prolonged lack of sleep definitely is not good for your brain and you will find yourself misplacing IQ points after a while.

      --marmot

  25. Re:Not good..... by nido · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What they [dolphins] do is sleep half their body and brain at a time.

    There was a post here some years back by someone who claimed to be able to do this. He [?] said he only found it useful for long-distance road trips.

    As I recall, his method worked through totally relaxing (via self hypnosis) half the body at a time.

    --
    Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
    www.teslabox.com
  26. Polyphasic/"Uberman" sleeping by SlightlyMadman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What's interesting about this drug, is that it seems to do something very similar to what people have been doing with polyphasic sleeping for years now. Basically, you only "need" 2 hours of sleep, but it has to be almost 100% REM. If you can trick your body into denying itself all the rest of the "unnecessary" sleep cycles, you can get by with just those two.

    Polyphasic sleeping accomplishes this by limiting yourself to brief 15-20 minute naps, which are far more efficient than sleeping in large blocks because the brain can be trained to go directly into REM. Unfortunately, this training can take weeks or months (depending on how fastidious you are with your schedule), and the adjustment period can be extremely unpleasant.

    A drug like this could be very useful for those of us who do don't experience much physical exertion and sleep very little as it is anyways, but couldn't get past the adjustment hump of the polyphasic cycle.

    --

    Money I owe, money-iy-ay
  27. Re:Not good..... by Pojut · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I do (comparitively) mild body building, and I did a little experiment.

    For one month, I worked out at LEAST 6 hours prior to going to sleep. For the next month, I worked out no MORE than 1 hour prior to going to sleep. I showed a VERY noticable improvement when I worked out shortly before going to sleep as opposed to working out long before going to sleep.

    It makes sense, if you think about it. Sleeping is like running your body on reduced (and in some people minimal) power...so instead of doing things like interpreting sight and sounds and tastes and touch and smells, you can spend those extra brain cycles repairing, regrowing, reorganizing, etc...

    A good friend of mine who went on to be a neurosurgeon once said "sleeping is to your brain as defragmentation is to your hard drive"

  28. Need for sleep by dargaud · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I read a paper in computational theory that went more or less like this. They proved via lambda calculus (the base maths of computational theory) that any sufficiently complex system needs a 'cleanup function'. In practical computer terms, it's the infamous garbage disposal process where lost pointers are dropped, unused pages are flushed from memory, seldom used memory commited to long term storage (mem to cache, cache to disk, disk to tape, etc...), data reorganised (in databases) or compressed, etc... During this period few, if any, real computing activity can continue; this translates as "if you don't reboot regularly, your computer will crash or you need a good garbage disposal process which will slow down your system for a while".

    Now if you believe (like many) that the brain is no more than a big computing unit, then it must abides by those rules and the sleep is nothing else than the physical manifestation of 'garbage disposal'. Keep it up for too long and it will... crash.

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
  29. Re:Not good..... by jc42 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Uh birds sleep too.

    Yeah, but there was the recent research showing that many birds sleep on just one side of their brain at a time. ;-)

    One thing I thought interesting about the report was that some of their test subjects were cockatiels. We have 'tiels, and we've often seen them apparently asleep, but if you can move to see their other eye, you find it open and alert (while the first one is still closed). Apparently part of what triggered the research was people reporting this sort of thing in their pet birds.

    The researchers instrumented the birds' brains (with very light-weight instruments ;-), and found that when the birds were in this state, with one eye open and one closed, their brain activity matched the pattern, with one hemisphere quiet and the other one active.

    A curious aspect to this is that birds' eyes are, like ours, wired into both sides of the brain. But the "asleep on one side only" pattern exists, and matches the eyes.

    The hypothesis is that birds generally don't need as much sleep as they get, so they stay half-alert to watch out for predators, maintain their grip on their perch, etc. And the alert side can send a wake-up signal to the sleeping side if anything interesting happens.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  30. Re:Not good..... by timeOday · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Agreed. The fact is evolution can explain and predict anything and everything, whether or not it is true (e.g. humans have wings so they can escape predators). The fact that a just-so story comes from (insert famous astrophysicist) means nothing in itself.

  31. Re:Not good..... by gurudude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've done pretty much the same thing my entire life - much to my parents chagrin during my early day... Ever since I was born, 3 hours 15 minutes, almost to the second... No observed adverse effects, I've done several sleep studies both in college and a few since I moved up near Yale... No related health issues, no problems - I don't feel tired, I function normally... Unlike one poster suggested, I don't work a boring, repetitive job - well, *sometimes* being a contract database programmer gets repetitive but it's not burger flipping... I made my way through college holding done a full time job, 20 hours a semester 2/ a 3.9 (4.0 in major) and left with a MS in Math and a MS in Comp Sci... Now, in my 40's, I sometimes take a little nap out in the hammock on Sundays (being a heathen has it's perks!) but at no time in my life have I ever *needed* to take naps unless I had a really nasty flu or some such illness... I have an ex-wife who contends I'm crazy, but a shrink who is more inclined to 'just a little weird' so... The doctor I'd seen @ Yale said it wasn't totally unheard of, but certainly rare... I think someday they'll find a way to reduce the amount of sleep the average person needs... A couple of interesting (to me anyway) side notes, I fall asleep withing minutes of lying down and according to the sleep studies, enter REM within 30 minutes of going to sleep...

  32. Re:Not good..... by Reziac · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That was me. I'll close one eye for about half an hour, and the effect is as if I've taken a nap. It apparently works by shutting off input to half of the brain, letting that half relax.

    It's more effective if I shut the right eye, albeit leading to terror in the passenger seat. :)

    (I also take more-ordinary naps at home, which tend to hover at the edge of sleep. And I'm naturally a *very* light sleeper, and a sunrise person.)

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  33. Re:Not good..... by thetaco82 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From what I understand of evolutionary theory, that's not really accurate. It takes the correct mutations to eliminate organs that no longer serve any purpose. As long as they don't provide any disadvantage, they're not going to be eliminated from the gene pool.
    My understanding of natural selection is that genes naturally decay through incremental mutations. If a mutation is detrimental to the organism's survival, then it will not be passed on to future generations. Traits that no longer serve a purpose will decay because there is no pressure to preserve them; mutations will be passed down along with the healthy genes. Over time, the mutations build up and the trait will fade away. A good example of this is the sense of smell. Most animals have a very keen sense of smell relative to humans. Animals with a dull sense of smell will be less likely to detect predators, and they will die. We humans live in such a way that there aren't any environmental pressures that make smell key to survival. People without a keen sense of smell are at no greater risk of death and the cycle of decay continues.
  34. Try neurofeedback by cheros · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with Ritalin (ie speed) is that it's an 'always on' drug, and ADHD appears to either lack or activity or overactivity of certain brain regions (both types of ADHD exist, which is why Ritalin doesn't always help). With neurofeedback you end up trainign those brain parts to perform as required (ie switch on and off as required) which is much more effective, and the results are permanent.

    The nice thing is that you'll know within one or two sessions if it works, no need for months to wait before you know it works. I've seen plenty of kids being more or less 'rescued' from a life with Ritalin, that alone is worth a try..

    --
    Insert .sig here. Send no money now. Owner may sue, contents will settle. Batteries not included.
  35. Re:The bugs! They are crawling up my legs! by Tired_Blood · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I was 18 for my marathon of 104 hours. I wrote about it here as AC. I strongly advise against any drug assistance for this type of activity.

    I suddenly got up and went out into the back yard to jump on the trampoline.
    In my experience, I was acutely aware of my slowed physical state (reaction times were slower and very low motivation for activity). As such, I became very cautious with my movements, and would have never thought to do something like that (walking up stairs was my most strenuous activity during that period). Part of the reason was to conserve energy, but that was only a conscious decision at the start whereas later on it simply became routine.

    It was -10 degree's Celsius or so and I was just wearing Jeans and a T-Shirt. I couldn't tell the difference.
    I do remember losing some sense of touch. Nothing that extreme, though.

    I was out with friends on the final night of my experiment and I started to see things and totally freaked out. One of the hallucinations was indeed a miniature pink elephant. As well I thought a tree was a very large spider. ... I also heard that earlier on in my experiment [first 24 hours I suppose] I had exclaimed to my friends that my toothpaste had started talking to me the next day at school.
    The hallucinations were very minor for me (I didn't expect or want them). YMMV, I guess. Sleeping through an entire day after that marathon was disorienting as well. In all, it was a weird week for me.
    --
    This is not my sig.
  36. Re:The Horror - Watch Capitalism Adapt by rgoldste · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I disagree, and I'll quote you a source: Elizabeth Warren, "The Two Income Trap" (Warren is a bankruptcy professor at Harvard Law School). Warren goes through the data and shows that your argument is false: families today do not spend more money on luxuries than in the 1950s, and the two cars come from needing both to get to work.

    In fact, Warren argues that capitalism adapted just as the grandparent predicted: when some women went to work, some families had more disposable income. By and large, those families spent that income on buying houses in better school districts (which are of course more expensive). To compete with those families, and make sure Junior went to a good public school, all the other families had to send the wife to work to snag a house in the good school districts. Of course, that just spurred a bidding war for houses in good school districts, driving the prices up so much that the middle class family had to cut down on luxuries to afford the house in the good school district.

    Moral of the story: if you create more wealth (whether by doubling the labor force, doubling the number of hours we work, or whathever), you cause inflation. It's not necessarily a zero-sum game, but it can be, as Warren demonstrates.

  37. Re:Not good..... by Schmendr1ck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you talk to an amateur astronomer (like me), he'll tell you that we humans actually have decent, but not great, night vision. There are two problems, though. First, it takes time to acquire. A minimum of 20-30 minutes in very low light is generally needed for good dark adaptation - for some folks it can take as long as an hour. Also, any relatively bright light, even a brief flash, will break down the accumulated rhodopsin in your retinas, destroying your dark adaptation and forcing you to start over. We use red flashlights because the red wavelengths don't break down rhodopsin as readily, and we also throw large, sharp objects at folks who shine white flashlights during a star party.

    But once you're dark adapted, you can see well enough to walk around and do quite a lot in conditions that a non-dark adapted person would consider "pitch black". Could you see a black cat sitting still on a black background? Maybe, maybe not. But could you see well enough to run away from a large predator at night without stumbling into a tree? Most likely yes.

  38. Re:Not good..... by espressojim · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's some complications to this. There is a physical structure to DNA. What you wind up having in populations is that segments of chromosomes travel in populations (these are haplotypes.) When you have something particularly interesting on some segment (something under positive selection), that entire segment will be kept (as the segment is slowly broken down by recombination, but that can take a LONG time.)

    I'd argue that anything that takes energy to maintain but serves no function would be not be selected for. See: Antibiotic resistance in bacteria where their enviornment does not contain the resistance. Bacteria that are not resistant have more energy for reproduction, thus spread faster.

    Selection is all about enviornment, though it's got a lot of interesting wrinkles that prevent us (population geneticists - though I can't call myself a 'real' one, as I do bioinformatics on population genetic data) from fully comprehending how all the inputs/outputs are wired together.

  39. Re:Not good..... by enderai · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, tonsils serve an important role in the immune system according to research done in the past 20(?) years or so. They act collectors of new bugs so that your body can build up antibodies. In other words, they get "sick" so you don't.

  40. Re:Not good..... by Warg!+The+Orcs!! · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I heard once in a psychology class (but have been unable to corroborate) that we too would be able to see in the UV range were it not for our lenses. The human eye lens is apparently slightly yellow and this filters out the UV. Patients who were given early artificial lenses reported being able to see new colours because the artificial lenses were clear.

    --
    Travelling forward in time at a rate of 1 second per second.
  41. Re:Hallucinations. by Shads · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I also did some sleep deprivation self-studies when i was in high school (over the summer mostly)... my longest stint with no chemical assistance was a bit over 9 days (221 hours.)

    Things I've noticed several times I've went sleep deprived
    Day 1) Hard to stay up at "Bedtime".
    o Normal functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and Physical abilities normal
    Day 2) Easy to stay up
    o Normal functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and physical abilities mostly-normal
    o Trouble concentrating on complex mental things, like programming a simple 3d game
    Day 3) Easy to stay up
    o Normal functioning
    o Memory, Speech, anad physical abilities mostly-normal
    o Trouble concentrating on complex mental things, like programming a simple 3d game
    o Minor issues with memory and extremely complex speech (like most complex poetry or tongue twisters)
    Day 4) Tired, can't get comfortable or will fall asleep
    o Impaired functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and physical abilities considerably lessened
    o Can't concentrate longer than a few minutes
    o Complex speech is impossible you sound like you had a stroke
    o Physically exhausted and "sore"
    o Minor visual only halucinations
    Day 5) Tired, can't get comfortable or will fall asleep
    o Impaired functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and physical abilities considerably lessened
    o Can't concentrate longer than a few minutes
    o Complex speech is impossible you sound like you had a stroke
    o Physically exhausted and "sore"
    o Hallucinations getting severe with all senses hard to tell from reality
    o Diminished appetite
    Day 6) Exhausted, effort required to stay awake
    o extremely impaired functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and Physical abilities are crap
    o can't concentrate for over a minute
    o speech is going in the crapper
    o body is sore like you've worked out for hours
    o Hallucinations are so severe you can't tell them from reality at all
    o time lag when in conversations
    o everything takes on a surreal cast, nothing seems like its normal
    o Pissy and angry, snapping at people
    o Diminished appetite
    Day 7) Exhausted, effort required to stay awake
    o extremely impaired functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and Physical abilities are crap
    o can't concentrate for more than a few seconds
    o speech is horrible, monotone, and increasingly rare, very start and stop
    o no energy hard to move
    o Hallucinations are so severe you can't tell them from reality at all
    o time lag when in conversations
    o everything takes on a surreal cast, nothing seems like its normal
    o Lethargic and slow to respond
    o No appetite
    Day 8) Exhausted, effort required to stay awake
    o extremely impaired functioning
    o Memory, Speech, and Physical abilities are crap
    o can't concentrate for more than a few seconds
    o speech is horrible, monotone, and increasingly rare, very start and stop
    o no energy hard to move
    o Hallucinations are so severe you can't tell them from reality at all
    o time lag when in conversations
    o everything takes on a surreal cast, nothing seems like its normal
    o Lethargic and slow to respond
    o No appetit

    --
    Shadus
  42. Sorry I'm so late to the party by viewtouch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Sleep is NOT behavior that has evolved 'for some reason'. Sleep is a metabolic imperative. It is the 'normal' state of life. Being awake is a temporary state that is actually destructive to the metabolism of cell life. Being awake is necessary to move around and obtain food and to procreate, but being awake is not necessary for anything beyond this. After the food has been obtained and the procreative act is complete then the life form able to end the destructive metabolic state of 'being awake' and return to the constructive metabolic state, otherwise known as sleep. Asking the question why do we sleep is akin to asking the question why do we live. The answer is that we do. Asking the question why do we wake up is a question that actually makes sense and can be answered with ease.

    The only way to understand sleep / awake is to first understand anabolism / catabolism, balancing metabolic states. Sleep and Awake are balancing metabolic states, nothing more, nothing less. Just because we can exhibit 'behavior' when we are awake does NOT mean that sleep has anything to do the the notion of behavior. And just because we can measure brain activity during periods when we are awake or asleep does NOT mean that sleep is anything more than a metabolic state. Sleep is the Normal, Natural state of any living organism. Awake is just heightened activity and enhanced skills necessary to obtain food and procreate. Making too much of what being awake is is the source of all the confusion and misunderstanding about what sleep is.

  43. High school understanding of the eye is wrong by melchoir55 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Cones do not detect color, rods do not detect black and white.

    Cones are sensitive to daylight conditions while rods are sensitive to low-light conditions. Your cones are inactive during night lighting conditions and you still construct your visual field in color. As a result of being keyed to daylight, cones are also used for edge perception. As such, you will find it quite impossible to read by moonlight, as reading requires your cones to distinguish very fine edges and your cones are inactive in nigh-light. (regardless of how bright the moon is.)
    Rods are particularly good at sensing motion, though not edges. As you may guess, this means humans are better at sensing motion *at night*. As such, you will not be able to tell which claw a bear is swinging at you in your peripheral vision, though you will be able to tell a large object is hurtling toward you. In fact, due to the physical setup of your eye, it is advisable to "look" at objects in night conditions without focusing directly at them. You have a .3mm concentration of cones in the center of your eye, thus the center of your eye is completely incapable of helping you in these conditions.
    This setup (being able to distinguish edges and detail better during the day and being better at detecting motion at night) seems to suggest that humans were on the defensive at night and actively engaged in the world during the day.
    The human vision system is much more effective (for things that we need to be spending time on) in daylight conditions, I find it *highly* unlikely humans were nocturnal in anything that might resemble recent history.

    We also do not detect 3 colors and then construct other colors out of a combination of these. Our S, L and M cones are tuned to respond most agressively to specific wavelengths of light, though they are still responsive to wavelengths that are "near" those. There is even a theory that some women posses a gene (that can only be carried on a second x chromosome) that produces a fourth type of cone. These cones are tuned to detect light in between the wavelengths of the L and M cones, giving these women the ability to distinguish between colors that a tri-chromatic individual would see as identicle. These women are ingeniously deemed "Tetrochromatic superwomen".

    Don't be sad if all this contradicts what you were told in high school. High school teachers, by and large, aren't on the bleeding edge of cognitive science.

  44. You don't need REM Sleep by Jugurtha · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There was a case of a woman who lost the ability to have REM sleep for over a year. It was thought for years that a person needed to enter this period of sleep but it turns out you don't, because she didn't suffer any serious effects. I don't doubt that in 50 years we will have a complete understanding of the human brain and how it works. At that point we can manipulate our genetics through drugs or gene therapy to eliminate the need for sleep. I know personally that I hate sleeping and would gladly do away with it if I could. From the article. "The study also backs up reports of patients who lost both their dreams and their REM sleep for up to a year after taking certain antidepressant drugs. "These people don't go mad," says Horne. They are completely normal and have no memory problems."

  45. Re:Not good..... by headonfire · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In the article you yourself linked, Vermiform Appendix the first paragraph:

    In human anatomy, the vermiform appendix (or appendix, pl. appendices) is a blind ended tube connected to the cecum (or internationally, "caecum"). It develops embryologically from the cecum. The term vermiform comes from Latin and means "wormlike in appearance". The cecum is the first pouch-like structure of the colon. The appendix is near the junction of the small intestines and large intestines.

    The paragraph you quoted is from further down in the wiki article -

    One explanation has been that the appendix is a vestigial structure with no current purpose.[citation needed] The appendix is thought to have descended from an organ in our distant herbivorous ancestors called the cecum (or caecum). The cecum is maintained in modern herbivores, where it houses the bacteria that digest cellulose, a chemically tough carbohydrate that these animals could not otherwise utilize. The human appendix contains no significant number of these bacteria, and cellulose is indigestible to us. It seems likely that the appendix lost this function before our ancestors became recognizably human.

    The article is directly contradicting itself. Further, that whole paragraph is lacking citation, and should probably be removed. I'm not debating about the appendix and it's function or lack thereof, here; I'm stating that what Wikipedia says about the cecum is incorrect. Using it as evidence for your argument is fallacious, and you need to find another source.

    To check out Wikipedia on the cecum, let's go to Cecum and take a look.

    The cecum or caecum (from the Latin caecus meaning blind) is a pouch connected to the ascending colon of the large intestine and the ileum. It is separated from the ileum by the ileocecal valve (ICV) or Bauhin's valve, and is considered to be the beginning of the large intestine.

    Which article is correct? Pick up an anatomy book, or try a google for "cecum" and pick anything but Wikipedia. From one of the higher links, Medterms.com:

    Cecum: The cecum (also spelled caecum), the first portion of the large bowel, situated in the lower right quadrant of the abdomen. The cecum receives fecal material from the small bowel (ileum) which opens into it. The appendix is attached to the cecum. The word "cecum" comes from the Latin "caecus" meaning "blind." This refers to the fact that the bottom of the cecum is a blind pouch (a cul de sac) leading nowhere.

    My final point: The appendix is not "descended from an organ in our distant herbivorous ancestors called the cecum". We have a cecum in our bodies currently, and it is what the appendix happens to dangle from. This is basic, high school and first-year anatomy. Is that good enough?

  46. Coding for 100 hours without sleep by tttonyyy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I was at uni, I left an OpenGL software project too late before deadline. I underestimated the massive amount of work it would take. It was due in Friday, I realised Sunday evening. I worked late into the night, until it was so late, I figured I might as well not bother sleeping. So I didn't. I stayed up for five days coding solidly, including throughout the night (coffee fuelled), stopping just to fulfil basic body functions. The project got done, and it looked great.

    But, I learnt a few things.

    My body followed the daily cycles despite not sleeping. Each day I would be at my least attentive between 4am-8am. Then, by mid-day I'd be feeling a lot more awake and alert. I did not hallucinate in any way, but I did feel like crap pretty much all the time.

    In hindsight, because I waas so tired during the days, I'd have probably got exactly the same amount of work done if I'd followed the normal cycles and slept during the nights. It definitely doesn't do you any favours to skimp on the sleep.

    And on the fifth day, after I handed it in, I slept very well. :) (But it did take another week to fully recover from my sleep depravation).

    Do not try this at home kids.

    --
    biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
  47. Re:Not good..... by Gorshkov · · Score: 2, Interesting
    From the dictionary entry for conservative:
    tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions
    tending to != incapable of, or unwilling to

    Isn't that kind of like saying that rocks "tend to" not move? Let me give you directions to a place I know that has witnessed many, many rockslides over the years. You can tell me how "tending to" do something means it'll never happen. But be sure to shout ... I'm gonna be off standing at a safe distance.

    Thinking that it is stupid to throw out the practices of the past without examining the alternatives to see if they are better can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the "thing' involved.

    From the definition of Liberal:
    BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
    "Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it"

    Intentionally ignoring what has been done in the past, and changing for the sake of change, can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the "thing" involved.

    Remarkable symmetry, don't you think?

    Your own definition of Liberal also notably does not preclude being bound by OTHER things .... like PC, liberal orthodoxy, or ... dare I say it ... close-mindedness and intellectual arrogance.

    But then again, I wouldn't know - I "tend to" be conservative.