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Linux Desktops Catching On In Education
digihome writes to point us to an appreciation of the state of Indiana's project of moving students from Windows desktops to Linux. In about a year, 22,000 students have made the switch, using a variety of Linux distributions. The crn.com writer tried switching his own two children to Linux laptops. From the article: "'So Dad,' [the 10-year-old son] asked. 'What is the difference between Linux and Windows?' I tried to explain but it was a waste of breath. 'What difference do you see?' I asked back. 'Nothing, really.'"
Reminds me of the time I loaned a thinkpad running ubuntu to a roomate of mine, who I would say was a garden variety computer user. She had no idea what linux or ubuntu was. I showed her how to launch firefox and openoffice. She was working on term papers that same day, no need for me to do anything at all. That said, I still think even ubuntu has some ground to cover when it comes to interoperability with windows and I do think that ground will have to be covered in the desktop arena by linux rather then MS (who won't/can't do it). Still, it seem that for about 95% or so of the things the average home users does with a computer, the differences between linux and windows seem to be fading fast.
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
I don't see how exposing them to another operating system isn't going to help prepare them for the real world. The more OS's they are exposed to early on, the better. Windows is everywhere, so why not give them the opportunity to use something that may not be as mainstream (in homes) now, but could be in the future? I use a windows laptop at work, help with the Linux servers, and have a Mac at home. In my opinion, the more you know, the better off you will be.
``Way to set them up for computer litterate jobs in the real world. :rolleyes:''
You mean like system administration, web development, software development, high performance computing, physics simulation, embedded systems development, etc. etc.?
I and others seem to have no problems getting and performing these jobs with our *nix experience.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
These kind of articles are just dumb. Of course, you're not going to see issues in the first half-hour, if people are just using a browser. The issue comes when the kids wants to load on some Windows software that all their friends are using, then suddenly the operating system matters dramatically. "I put in the CD that came with my iPod, but the computer isn't working." "I got this cool game for my birthday, but it's not working."
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
This is a great idea, but the school system is still required to buy the computers, regardless of if they have Linux or Windows. My wife teaches in Dearborn County, IN, which is in the southeastern corner of the state. To this day, they don't have a single one of these systems, nor do they have anything else instead. The teachers at her school don't have their own working computers, much less the students, as the state of Indiana doesn't push a technology agenda like the rest of the real world.
Over this entire school year, she's actually had email working on her desk MAYBE 2 days. Each Windows PC in the school is so full of CometCursors and SmileyCentrals that they don't run worth a darn. Their tech support uses the famous "in the private sector" excuse. If you work for the government, you know that this means "in the private sector, people aren't as overworked." (HA!)
Not that a Pentium II Windows 95 machine logging into the Netware network is going to be that great to begin with. That being said, their gymnasium at the high school is shiny and nice.
Let me get this straight: He claims Linux is equal to Windows by using web-based email, web-based chat clients, web-based music stations, and web-based text processing.
I fail to see how this article has anything to do with the pro's and cons of a Linux desktop, since you can do any of those same things on any platform with a web connection and browser with a flash plugin (for pandora).
Let's see what his 10 year old has to say about it when he wants to play the latest PC games, copy music to his iPod using iTMS, and/or run software his friends are running.
I'm sorry, I AM a K-12 admin for a fairly large school system (10,000 desktops) and we use Windows for several non-linux bashing reasons: Exchange, AD, compatibility with other districts, and price/support to staying the course as opposed to rebuilding everything.
My sysadmin desktop of choice? I use FreeBSD and Ubuntu with remote desktop. Just because I can handle it, doesn't mean everyone here can, especially when they use Windows at home. One thing about teachers, you don't rock their boat. Let their classroom be about them and their students and all is well.
If you're half as beautiful naked, you'd be 4 times as beautiful with twice as many clothes on.
It appears that most of the /. community doesn't really remember desktop computing before, say about Windows95?
/. such things would be important... guess not
All the derisive comments about Linux used to apply to Windows... for a very long time. One of the good things
about that problem is that it taught many of us to work with computers, rather than simply use applications.
Learning to use Excel or Word is not learning to use a computer. Figuring out how to run Doom on a pc is not
learning about computers.
Linux is a GOOD way to learn about computers... Things like network configurations and why you need them, what
is HAL anyway? What are all those programs in the 'running processes' list? Why do I need to block ports?
I would have thought that here on
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
No offense, but why would you need training to do a job you were hired to do in the first place? My employers never trained me to learn or know Linux, and yet I learned it on my own. I learned it in my free time and my resume looked better than ever. I know, I know - it's strange when people do things of their own free will to better themselves and their prospects. Support? What is this support you speak of? Have you ever needed to call tech support on your IT-supported desktops for Windows? If you answered "yes" for anything other than an RMA, you're either an idiot or - well, an idiot..
The easiest way to "leap into Linux" as you put it would be to learn HANDS ON, on your own, at home, at work, wherever you find the free time. I've never worked for IT a company where I didn't have two or three computers under my desk - make your desktop Linux. Really, you work in education, teaching yourself is the easiest job you should have. Do you care about the quality of education your students might receive? Yes? Why give them a computer that only ships with a programming language default of "VB script"?
I would prefer my children be taught on a very versatile operating system which will keep their interest (and not because the pictures are pretty or this new game is fun.)
That has been the same from day one.
Spectrum vs C64,
Atari ST vs Amiga
PC vs Mac
new PC vs old pc
Windows 3.1 vs W95
etc etc etc
You are right about the limited amount of Linux specific games at the moment, we need a resolution that does not involve simply running PC games.
Would kids care if they had to reboot their PC to play the best game in existance?
What benefit would you have booting from CD and running a cut down linux kernel for the game?
Secure access, you know the system is as sent out and you know the chances of cheaters is less.
All that just for treating the PC like a console.
liqbase
I work in the real world, and I use Linux all day.
I bought my wife a Toshiba, which came with WinXP (despite my protestations). I thought I'd just let her use XP (non-administrator) until it got too messed up, then reformat using Linux. To my surprise, she complained the first day. She hated all of the preinstalled software asking her to buy this and that. She didn't even know what McAfee was, let alone want to deal with the SUBSCRIBE NOW!! popups.
I told her I could fix it, and put Ubuntu Edgy (pre-release, even!) on there. She's perfectly happy with it now. I asked her if she likes it better or worse than the other (XP), and she replied that it was exactly the same, but without the annoying popups.
As an aside, my 6-year-old is a whiz with XUbuntu on his Dell 700MHz machine.
I think we Linux geeks have "failure to launch" syndrome. We worry about every little detail and think that everyone's going to hate our product, find it buggy/insufficient/unfamiliar, yadda yadda. The fact of the matter is that your average person probably won't notice much of a difference in most cases, and will usually just cope with the ones they do, just like they've always done with Windows.
Windows isn't better or bug free. It's just a different set of annoyances and insufficiencies that people have learned to ignore and work around. If people are going to learn to ignore bugs, maybe they can ignore ones that will be fixed quicker. If they're going to work around inadequacies, maybe they can work around ones that they have the potential to implement themselves, given the aptitude.
Education is a great stage to get kids acquainted with Linux. By the time these kids are teens and adults, Linux will have progressed immensely, and they probably WILL be using Linux on corporate desktops. You're not thinking fourth-dimensionally, Marty!
Do you honestly think that just because children were given a system that comes with 1001 scripting languages they are going to do anything different with it then they did with Windows? Here's a hint, they won't. They don't care that Windows comes with WSH that will run Javascript and VBScript, they don't care that a default Linux install has Perl, Python, Ruby and who knows what else.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
I am totally inept at Windows yet I have a highly technical computer oriented job. My success can be partially attributed to the use of AIX and Linux at my highschool. (this was over 10 years ago)
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Buy the kid a game console. even if they have a PC you'll probably end up getting them a game console or two anyways.
some of my favorite games run on Linux, but a person of your unrefined tastes would probably not enjoy them.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
"Hey Dad, my games don't work on this."
Welcome to the world of Linux...
No offense, but why would you need training to do a job you were hired to do in the first place?
Oddly enough, I was hired to support some 500 Windows-based PCs. I'm also the only person actively advocating the possibility of moving some of those over to Linux. For that to happen, the OTHER THREE PEOPLE IN MY DEPARTMENT would need training.
I know, I know - it's strange when people do things of their own free will to better themselves and their prospects.
And I'm doing that with Linux. But not everyone wants to spend the time to learn it on their own; they're happy with the status quo if they can't get a crash course in good Linux admin.
Have you ever needed to call tech support on your IT-supported desktops for Windows?
Yes. I've been in contact with a Microsoft rep several times about cleaning up our deployment process so that we can make better use of our time during the summer.
If you answered "yes" for anything other than an RMA, you're either an idiot or - well, an idiot..
Ahh, the famed friendliness of the Linux community strikes again.
make your desktop Linux.
Not possible. I have to use Windows-only apps and don't have the time to spend on the clock making them (maybe) work under Linux, nor can I take them home with me since they're network-based. We don't have the budget to buy me extra computers (and I'd object to tax money being spent that way anyway, it could be better used in a classroom) so I don't get any toys.
I would prefer my children be taught on a very versatile operating system which will keep their interest
Yet you seem determined to put me, the only FOSS-friendly voice in an entire school district, off by calling me an idiot.
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
Do you honestly think that just because children were given a system that comes with 1001 scripting languages they are going to do anything different with it then they did with Windows? Here's a hint, they won't. They don't care that Windows comes with WSH that will run Javascript and VBScript, they don't care that a default Linux install has Perl, Python, Ruby and who knows what else.
I did. I programmed in BASIC, Pascal, C before I was 12 and later C++ (and a masochistic teacher gave me a fortran book, but I dropped that after chapter 2) - all before the age of 17. I enjoyed learning these languages, and I know I'm not alone in this. I had options - most kids don't. And I'm not even a "professional" programmer, though I do code for my work occasionally.
Look, I'm not saying all kids are going to scream for joy and poop their pants at the site of a Ruby interpreter, but is there *really* anything the "Windows" kids will be missing out on by running Linux - even if it's just to give those few kids who would use it a chance to code?
I don't see the OP saying he was hired to be a Linux admin and asking for training after.
No, you see the OP saying something like "I don't know Linux and neither do my co-workers here in IT." I'm just saying that not knowing information should not be a barrier to your *consideration* of adoption. If this is a good choice for you (which they said it was, cost of training being the barrier) and this is the only thing holding you back from a proposal, download some Slackware or Gentoo install disks and LEARN.
Well, there IS one difference. The price.
Where there is the necessary technical skill to move mountains, there is no need for the faith that moves mountains.
...or install their own software.
Untrue. It is quite common for users to have personal scripts and programs.
You are correct. Maybe I should have said "install the software (read: adware) that they downloaded last night that puts the pretty kittens all over their desktop and changes their screensaver" And I probably should have clarified that, in the rare even that these kids are writing their own apps at home, without root access, it won't matter what they run or install because they can't dick up the system, just their home directories.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
He seems to be a portion of the segment of the Linux community that I have to resist throttling when I meet them in person.
I also have had to call support lines before (and not always MS's) for strange problems that we had at the non-profit I worked at a few years ago. We worked with a lot of specialized programs that, shall we say, had some real issues with our switch to XP when we rolled out new desktop machines. So bad, in fact, that we were reinstalling all of the new machines with Win2k for several months until the companies who made the software figured out what the problems were and fixed them. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to work.
We're not even going to get into the server issues. Some of those were grand fun and took entire days to figure out and I am a loooong way from being an idiot.
For what it's worth, good luck in learning Linux. Some parts are easy, some aren't (just like any other OS). The ability to code little scripts to automate things is nice, but that doesn't help your end users a whole lot (though most end users don't need to worry about it anyway). My best advice to you would be to find the local Linux User's Group and start talking to them and going to meetings while playing around with things on a personal machine. Eventually you'll pick things up.
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
``And that's not even addressing the problem of teachers who are scared enough of Windows, IE, and MS Office; it's pulling teeth to get them to use StarOffice.''
I think people who are scared of Windows and other proprietary software, or don't know how to use it, or computers, at all, are prime candidates for teaching free software to. It's people who are already familiar/proficient with proprietary software who have a more or less legitimate case for sticking with it.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
You offer nothing except criticism, you're abrasive, and we can't actually be sure you know anything useful. You're as much of a troll as I am. FYAD.
If they're an IT employee then I want them to have experience with multiple platforms or I'm not interested in them. I want to know that they have the kind of mind that drives them crazy until they figure things out. I want people who can't help but think about it when they're at home in the shower.
If they're any other kind of employee, I know that all [credible] operating systems basically do the same things and all of them behave more or less the same way, and they have basically the same things in them, just different places. So I'm trying to hire someone with a brain, as opposed to someone with experience in specific applications. A person who depends on that is not only useless if I switch applications, but may actually require major retraining if I just change versions of the application. I don't want someone who learned by rote, I want someone who figures things out.
Finally, most people clearly do not give a fuck if people have the computer skills the job description calls for. Oh sure, if it's an IT job, you can't get the job unless you have every single bullet point. I don't have any Veritas experience and that has really kicked my ass. But if it's anything else, they don't take the computer requirements seriously anyway. Practically every office job in existence today, including every teaching job for example (the classroom is an office of sorts as well) requires familiarity with Microsoft Office, yet when I have had IT jobs at various places, I have spent an inordinate amount of time explaining to people how to perform basic tasks in Office.
So, no, I do not think there is any significant detriment. And yes, I have thought about it. And no, I am not a Linux fanatic. Although I have used Linux on my primary system at various times (and in fact the only working computer I currently own and used on a regular basis is a laptop running ubuntu) at work I have two Windows XP systems and a Dual G5 on my desk. I could put Linux on a system, and use it; I could use vmware to run any recalcitrant windows programs. I don't because the software I need to use most often is Windows-only and it would make no fucking sense. I do support linux, because I think it has the best chance to give me what I want, at least out of the current list of mainline operating systems.
Application support is a real issue, although frankly 99% of the time there is a working FoSS alternative to whatever one is doing on Windows. There are some real exceptions, such as high-end content creation, but they are gradually going away as software with that functionality is introduced for Linux. Even video editing is finally coming into view.
Driver support, however, is a non-issue. When you purchase hardware for windows, you buy hardware that is windows certified. If you want to purchase hardware for Linux, you should do the same thing. Barring that, you must do your homework. All major computer vendors are happy to provide you systems with hardware known to work with linux, and typically it does not come at a cost premium. You simply must know what you're buying. Any substantially older hardware, as is common in schools and the like, is almost certainly supported already, with the possible exception of some wifi hardware.
TCO is a combination of all of these issues, but Linux requires less maintenance/attention than Windows does. I don't think that's even really an arguable point. Assuming that you have planned intelligently, Linux will pretty much ensure you a lower TCO. Planning is where most things fall down, frankly. Measure twice, cut once...
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Maybe we should begin touting Neko and xscreensaver as the great advantages of Linux... damn, we have learned nothing from the marketing people...
Ignore this signature. By order.
Parent understands Indiana High School Priorties - the gym/ basketball arena. I went to high school in Indiana and I can tell you that if for some reason basketball required Linux machines, they'd be installed and running tomorrow morning.
My confidence in smooth Linux migrations for ordinary users took a pretty good hit over thanksgiving, when (for kicks mostly) I booted my mother's machine with Austrumi. My mother uses the computer *only for checking her hotmail and clicking the links she's sent by friends. I don't think she could do a google search without help. I set the firefox startup page to her hotmail account, and for good measure invited her to gmail. Well a day later I basically had a mutiny on my hands. My mother was very put off about having to find the "Compose" link in gmail. Incidentally, she's also kinda put off by the 2-3 dozen spam messages in her hotmail box every day. My brother insisted that i "put it back". Near as I can tell, he was looking at his fantasy football web pages and got a dialog about mismatched certificates, and concluded that I had broken the machine. What I'm saying is that there's a class of user for whom change == malfunction. Some of these people are CEOs, btw.
My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
Well, part of the issue I have with this opinion is the dreaded concept of "computer literacy."
Years and years ago, I bumped into my old elementary school principal. He asked me to come back and talk to some of the teachers about using computers in their classrooms. Every teacher I spoke to said the same thing, "We have to teach kids not to be afraid of computers."
Now, I grew up using a computer--a multimillion dollar mainframe. I was never "afraid" of using it. As I mentioned to the principal, "These are kids who hang upside-down from steel jungle gyms. They aren't afraid of anything--least of all a hunk of plastic." It is adults who wasted time with the whole concept of "computer literacy" because they had to go back and relearn this stuff, so the kids obviously had to as well.
Where computers work in the classroom is the same way that they work in business: they enhance productivity. Whether that means they can assist in communicating concepts that the teacher is trying to communicate or they can remove some of drudgework of school (eg, writing a paper, drawing graphs) is unimportant. The computers are tools for the student, like pencils, pens, notebook paper, graph paper, etc. They are not a raison d'etre in of themselves.
What?? Since when did I AS AN INDIVIDUAL become a community? I am not a damn community. I am an individual.
Yup, you certainly are an individual. You're also what I would in general call a dick. And also apparently one of those maligned "idiots" you were referring to in your post. Whether you like it or not, by advocating and using Linux, you are part of that community. Just because you lack the intelligence to recognize that does not exempt you. Your other points are equally stupid. Using Microsoft tech support does not make you an idiot. What would make you an idiot is ignoring readily accessible sources of information to fix your problem. Yes, you can teach yourself things, and that is good. But training usually accelerates your learning, and/or exposes you to information that might not be easily available otherwise. That's why people go to college. Sure, I could've taught myself all about microprocessor design, programming, etc. But the university sure helped accelerate that learning.
While I am a Linux supporter and wish it the best of luck and patience in moving forward, is there really an absolute need to switch to that OS in an area such as education?
Let us compare what advantages Linux would have over Windows (in the area of education, mostly students and faculty and excluding IT since they are minor). So, Linux would definitely be more secure, as there are no viruses, spyware, or any malicious programs or scripts that could break the operating system. But with a correctly configured computer (antivirus and spy/malware protection on Windows), how much does this advantage really weigh? You can make something completely foolproof, but a better fool will find a way to break it. If a student really doesn't care about the status of his or her computer or laptop, then what makes one think that Linux will solve this?
Which brings me to my next point. While I believe that Linux is an operating system chock full of potential and capability, I sincerely do not think that it is ready for real desktop deployment. I hope nobody considers this flamebait of any sort, but I cannot fathom how it would be easier or manageable for a student to have to deal with the inconsistencies that run rampant in Linux. Heck, most typical students (or adults) freak when their wireless isn't working; I am sure that they will have a field day trying to set up NetworkManager for GNOME (and don't even get me started with wireless under KDE).
As a debater, I assume the most practical and extreme situations, so let us consider the possibility that these students are willing to put up with that. A typical Windows user can get the wireless working, but they might need that extra call to the Help Desk to learn how to properly configure the security settings. Putting Linux in an environment where IT is constantly plagued with calls and issues on Windows alone would possibly result in absolute chaos. I can see lots of the staff at IT constantly having to deal with ATI driver issues (because we all know that the instructions are consistent for every computer...).
At my college (which happens to be a technology institute, so roll out the stereotypes), the Help Desk gets flooded (literally) with help requests just for simple issues related to Windows and even Mac. And my school is a small school (10,000 students...
But that is just my opinion. I am not a systems manager.
And how, exactly would you prove that?
This statement strikes me as funny for two reasons: One it assumes that the student is going to be using the same OS for the duration of his career from say middle school to graduating from college, which is ridiculous. I had my first computer experience on a Commodore 64, then moved to Windows shortly thereafter, but it was an assortment of different flavors from Win95 to XP and several different flavors of Linux in between. IMHO, the main differences between OSes lies in how they operate underneath the UI interface, which most kids will not get into in middle school, and the applications which can be installed. Most of the apps used in school systems can easily be replaced with the equivalent apps that are found in most Linux distros and have similiar sequences of actions to activate an event. I don't think that switching from OpenOffice.Org to M$ Word will be all that traumatizing to a kid.
Secondly, it's assuming that the kids will only be interacting with computers at school, which for the general population is not the case. And for the general population. the OS of choice at home tends to be a flavor of the Windows OS.
In short, it seems like it would be a great idea to introduce Linux in the school system. If nothing else, it will show kids to not be afraid of switching to a different OS b/c they don't know where the button to do such-and-such is at (seriously, that is the only reason why I my roommate doesn't like Linux and makes me boot into Windows when he wants to surf the internet)I don't think that's really the case. It would be quite possible to round up a moron, train them to do something in OS X and then watch them fumble confused at Windows - this applies to any desktops, even moving from KDE to Gnome.
At the superficial, desktop level all operating systems are equally difficult, and all have idiosyncracies that require some learning ability to handle.