Slashdot Mirror
Nintendo Sued over Wiimote Trigger
kaizokunami writes "A company named Interlink Electronics, Inc., creator of interface devices has filed a suit in US District court against Nintendo of America, claiming the Nintendo the trigger on the bottom of the Wii controller infringes on their patent. The article includes images submitted with the patent application." From the article: "The complaint alleges that the trigger on the bottom of the Wii controller infringes on Interlink Patent No. 6,850,221 (Trigger Operated Electronic Device), which the company secured on February 1, 2005. Nintendo president Satoru Iwata first presented the Wii controller to the public not too long after that date, during the 2005 Tokyo Game Show."
I have a remote for a LCD projector that's a good 3 years old that looks almost exactly the same. I'd imagine there are plenty more examples out there. My guess is Interlink is simply banking on the damage they can do before their patent is invalidated.
ACs are modded -6. I don't read you, I don't mod you, I don't see you. Don't like it? Don't be a coward.
You know somebody was going to have to post it...
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
It's a trigger on the bottom of a controller.
If that's not obvious, what is?
I don't care how you use it, where you put it, whatever. Once a button, always a button.
No Comment.
I'm thinking finding prior art on a trigger shouldn't be too hard.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
The only real difference is the shape of the controller, I get the feeling this is going to be thrown off the deep end
One's a controller for a game system, the other is a mouse for power point presentations. Since they're not really related at all does it still infringed?
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
FTFA:
Do I think that Nintendo riped these people off? No
Do I think that they are patent Trolls? Probably.
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
there are three other ways, and i hold patents on them all. i'd tell you about them but then i'd have to sue you.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
There seem to be a lot of innovations in the Wii. If they just pay them off, then I'm sure they're opening the flood gates from lawsuits from all directions. Especially for the trivial stuff that is rather obvious, like this appears to be. I'm willing to bet that motion based interfaces is actually a patent minefield no one has ever forged across before.
How can one possibly be sure that you're not violating anybody's copyright when creating something so complicated as a console system? With thousands of different copyrights protecting hundreds of different idea's, how do you as a company protect yourself from litigation? Assuming Nintendo did not willfully violate the copyright, is there anything they could have done to prevent this, apart from going throught thousands of patents trying to see if what they're doing falls under any one of them?
I think there should be a law where you as a patent holder must warn the company that violated your copyright, at which point that company (Nintendo in this case) can either:
1. Change the design of the device and pay you royalties on the ammount of devices produced with the old design
OR
2. Continue to design the controllers in the same way, but agree on royalties, avoiding any legal costs in the first place.
The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Hmm. "reduced sales and/or lost profit", eh? Their patented device is for use with a PC during slideshow presentations. I don't see how the hell a videogame console controller would ever have any impact on that at all. Well, unless Nintendo licenses out *shudder* Powerpoint to run on the Wii.
The lost profit easily comes from the loss of royalty fees. Also, note that there has been software written for Mac that allows control using the Wii remote. So they could actually attempt to use this against Nintendo, even if it wasn't the intended purpose of the device.
Sorry folks, I don't think your precious IR mouse product is about to be supplanted by the wiimote any time soon. These are 2 different products used for entirely different purposes, in 2 entirely different markets. A homebrew hack that doesn't quite cover the required functionality isn't a threat to your business.
Unfortunately, patent law doesn't care. The claims for their invention seem to cover just about any electronic system and could be construed to cover this other market. Their similar patent issued in the late 1990s has already been licensed to other companies, including TV makers, so this idea that the two markets do not cross is not really applicable in the patent world. They managed to get a patent whose claims seem to cover this, and in the end, that is all that really matters. Doesn't mean I like this patent. The 10yrs to issue makes me wonder how much prior art is really close to invalidating this patent.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
I did a write-up for the Kotaku crowd, but I figure this might help some Slashdotters understand how to read the patent and better determine what's going on here:
- to-quick-and-dirty-patent-analysis.html
;)
http://jointstrikeweasel.blogspot.com/2006/12/how
I hope this helps. Analyzing patents is much more fun when you understand how to do it.
That company's lawyers sure were trigger happy.
:-p
*cough*
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Um, the patent was filed in 1997 with priority to 1995. Therefore you can erase, Wii, Xbox360, Xbox, Dreamcast, and N64, as established in prior postings.
Now, the NES zapper might be close, but I have to more closely read the claims then my cursory glance. The same for your flightsticks. I will admit there has to be some very close art for it to take almost 10 yrs to get these claims patented.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
I don't really have a desire to read through the entire patent to see if this is the case, and IANAL, so I don't know this for sure, but I'm not certain that Nintendo is actually infringing on that patent. According to the Abstract, the patent specifies that the device transmits data via infrared to a receiver mounted somewhere. The Wiimote doesn't do that. It communicates button presses to the Wii through Bluetooth, and uses the sensor bar to transmit IR data to the Wiimote so it can determine it's own position in space.
Maybe someone with a little better understanding of patent law, and/or has time to read the patent can enlighten me?
I am tired of posting replies, so I will simply make one big huge post so hopefully everyone will read it.
1. N64 is not prior art. Nor is anything else not seen until after Sep. 5, 1995. This patent was filed in 1997 as a continuation of another application filed on the date I provided. If you want prior art, please pre-date 1995. (Note: N64 was first shown in Nov. 1995.)
2. The use of this device as a "mouse" is irrelevant. The patent claims are broad enough they can be construed to cover a gaming console. I have to given them some credit for that claim wording, it made me shake my head.
3. No matter how many people "came up" with the idea, it does not matter. The patent definition of obviousness is not the human definition. It might seem obvious to place a button in such a location, but did anyone file a patent or design such an item before them? If not, then was it really that obvious for someone to do it?
4. They really are not trolls. They have been making these products and making amicable licensing agreements with other companies. I still think this patent might be bogus, but I would not know without doing a full patent search.
So to recap, prior art must be before 1995, read the claims and ignore most everything else, and they are not really trolls, but this patent is probably pretty weak, especially if you consider it took almost 10 yrs to issue and there are a good number of reference arts provided.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
I remember using military weapons technology between 1982 and 1989 that had similar triggers.
Sounds like someone trying to make a fast buck.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
No wait, hear me out, I'm not just being pedantic - didn't Sony recently lose a court case to have the PS3 classed as a computer? Surely if the courts draw a distinction between consoles and computers then they would also do so in the case of the patent such that the patent describes a device designed for a computer and not one designed for a console?
Of course IANAL but would this kind of argument stick in court?
It's not just the location of the bottom trigger but the location of the top buttons AND their functionality (one is a "thumb pad" type device, the other is a regular old button). Lastly, the Wii-mote is shaped more like a remote control than a gun or a two-handed controller. So, Interlink's remote seems more unique and it bears a striking resemblance to the Wii-mote.
/ 08/90interlink_screen005.jpg
Best image is here
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2006/news/12
I have to admit that I can't think of a another remote control looking device with a trigger on the bottom.
The classic piece of prior art as taught to UK examiners (it might be UKPO folk-lore!) is that a doggy doorbell, IIRC, was deemed to lack Novelty due to a citation of the Beano (a long running UK comic featuring Dennis-the-Menace and his dog Gnasher as the figurehead characters).
s 6_patent.html for tentative corroboration.
See http://www.innovation.rca.ac.uk/PD/sw/IP/st_right
Once upon a time, patents were awarded for breakthrough inventions. You know, the stuff that really changed the way the game was played. The original patent system was designed for a small number of those, maybe a couple a year. On that scale, prior art and researching claims by comparing them other other patents works, and at that small number you can expect experts in a field to know the few relevant patents that exist.
But that's been perverted long since, and today you can get a patent for things as ground moving, earth shaking and future creating as the placement of a button on an input device. I'll let the other posters discuss obviousness, I'll just stand here in the corner and shake my head that such trivial nonsense is supported by an artificial exclusive monopoly system. It certainly took years of research to come up with this revolutionary idea, and thousands upon thousands of tries to get the details right, so a patent is surely adequate.
My suggestion for patent system reform: If it obviously took longer to write the patent application than to invent the thing in question, reject and have the applicant pay a fine for the wasted time of the patent office.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
http://www.vintagetvsets.com/flash.htm
This is the Zenith Flash-Matic, from 1955. It's a very early remote control... and the first appearance of the mute button. It was designed to 'shoot out' the sound from commercials.
http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/49/497.html
Think this qualifies?
Time to start suing everyone!
NINTENDO, HERE'S SOME IDEAS:
I'm not a patent attorney, but I do have some experience with patents. A notable, and key element of the patent is that "a LED device for emitting an infra-red output signal for transmission to the receiver for operating the computer", However, as I understand it, the Wiimote communicates via bluetooth and uses the IR purely for reference, but NOT for communication with the Wii.
Further the patent seems to imply that the pointing controls and mouse movement are controlled by buttons, not actual physical movement, and that the trigger mechanism is purely used for selecting or clicking. This is another key difference. The only true similarity seems to be the physical trigger button, which is also present on many other devices, such as the Xbox and Playstation controllers, and various other gaming peripherals (Remember the Super Scope?).
Since the patent was issued to a device containing a trigger element, and its not a patent ON ALL trigger elements. Lastly, this is a utility patent under class 345/158 (Including orientation sensor e.g., infrared, ultrasonic, remotely controlled) & 345/157 (Cursor mark position control device).
"A utility patent applies to the way something is made, how a device operates, or a process for accomplishing some utilitarian purpose."An strong argument can be made that the patent and mechanisms describe NO REASONABLE PROCESS OR OPERATION for accomplishing the functions defined in its patent class. It does NOT provide a means to control a cursor mark position. And Nintendo's Wiimote does in a wholly different manner, using gyros and other methods.
These may be key differences that could be used to circumvent (and possibly invalidate) the patent. There's no reason to settle or pay up to something that has no real claim. Especially when the patent in question was never intended to operate in the manner that the Wiimote does.
So yeah, That's my 15 minute analysis. Feel free to counter/deconstruct.
I'm amazed that any trigger on game controller could possibly be considered non-obvious at this point. This is just another example of our outdated patent system... Has this company done anything with their government-sponsored patent-monopoly to create a market out of it?