Slashdot Mirror


U.S. Refuses to Hand Over Fighter Source Code to UK

orbitalia writes "The UK is heavily involved in the JSF (Joint Strike Fighter program) but has recently considered abandoning the project because the US refuses to share the source code. The UK had intended to purchase $120 billion dollars worth of aircraft to operate on two new aircraft carriers, but is now seriously considering Plan 'B'. This is likely to be further investments in the Eurofighter Typhoon project." From the article: "It appeared that Tony Blair and George Bush had solved the impasse in May, when they announced an agreement in principle that the UK would be given access to the classified details on conditions of strict secrecy. The news was widely seen as evidence that the Prime Minister's close alliance with the American President did have benefits for Britain ... 'If the UK does not obtain the assurances it needs from the US then it should not sign the Memorandum of Understanding covering production, sustainment and follow-on development,' the MPs insisted."

10 of 558 comments (clear)

  1. Your F-22 point is moot. by Tavor · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Joint Strike Fighter is the F-35. Much less stealth, much lower price, and likely just a little below the EuroFighter, in my opinion.

    --
    Windows has detected an undetectable error.
  2. Re:Why invest in these airplanes at all? by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 4, Informative

    The UK doesn't have any F-117's and never will. Anyway, the JSF family of planes are intended to replace a number of others:

    F-35A: F-16, A-10
    F-25B (STOVL): Harrier, F-18
    F-35C: F-18

    By using a set of three planes that are mostly the same instead of half a dozen completely different ones it should in theory lower costs in terms of a better economy of scale on the planes and their parts and a lower cost of training for pilots, mechanics, etc.

    --
    Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
  3. What? by ChePibe · · Score: 5, Informative

    A few pointers:

    1) The F-117 has no air-to-air capability. It also has a rather small payload (basically 2 bombs), high maintenance costs due to early technology and is (generally believed, though I think it is still classified) to be a subsnoic jet, in other words, slower. Stealth isn't everything. Also, as it only fills the one role, it is less economical than an all-in-one type aircraft.

    2) Uh... since when did anything other than a super-precision ground strike become unpopular politically? The U.S. has certainly used "dumb" bombs in many campaigns, including Afghanistan and Iraq, to good effect under certain conditions and on certain targets. JDAMs - much more economical than laser guided munitions - are also quote popular and while they aren't as accurate, "close" is often good enough, assuming they're fired under certain conditions, of course. Furthermore, this particular aircraft is capable of using laser-guided weapons.

    3) You know, there are areas without civilian populations present where Close Air Support could still be a concern... like, say, the mountains of Afghanistan perhaps? Or in the middle of nowhere in the Iraqi desert? Or hundreds of other battlefields? Not every battle in the future will occur in third world cities, you know.

    4) A helicopter with a "chain gun" has a limited operational range and exposes itself to a great deal of enemy fire. Helicopters' armament tends to be lighter than what an aircraft can provide, focusing more on armor-piercing weapons (Hellfire missiles), and smaller weapons more useful against vehicles and lighter targets (rockets, canon, etc.). A strike fighter, on the other hand, can deliver 2000 lb. bombs on a target when necessary, enablig it to knock out, say, a heavily reinforced building or bunker than a helicopter would stand no chance against.

    I mean, if you don't like this plane, that's cool and all, but there is still a mission out there for it.

  4. Not just source code by bananaendian · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is not just about source code. In a system like that software, hardware and system integration are inseparable. You either give no information or have to give it all. These are the crown jewels of the platform. Revealing them also reveals any number of critical points for interested adversaries: thrust and manoeuvrability limits, reaction times, counter-measure schemes and logic, EMC-characteristics etc. all of which can be used to find weaknesses and design weapon systems to be more effective against it.

    Also, since the UK is only conributing 10% of the development costs, its no wonder the US isnt keen sharing. Usually with mil-tech you only give a bad, incomplete user manual to the client so he can barely operate the thing and then wait for him to pay more for extra features that are already implemented by disabled in software or simply undocumented. You never ever allow the client to have exact specs, schematics or software which would allow him to reverse-engineer and develop his own extentions and applications to it.

    Here in Finland we bought old C-model F18 Hornets. When the first upgrade cycle came, the US told us of these new fancy secure ground-to-air datalinks and avionics for combat close formation flying they wanted to sell us. We just told them we had developed our own by then, thankyouverymuch. But that was because the platform was getting old and most of the stuff in there was already open knowledge with multiple nations having purchased them years ago. Also with old-gen mil-aircraft there are a lot of avionics standards which were developed and adhered to during the cold-war to easy manufacturing, lower cost and allow inter-service operations. These JSFs will probably have special new-gen custom avionics to do with flight and weapon control, targeting, radar, stealth, communications and electronic warfare that the US definately wants to keep wrappers on.

    --
    www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
  5. Mod -999 Wrong by bananaendian · · Score: 4, Informative
    SU-27 is sooo last century. Meet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-35 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mig-31 . They both have phased array radar which just doesn't care about 'stealth' technologies.
    1. MIG-31 developed during the 70-80s, and upgraded with 80s avionics during the 90s, is a complete piece of junk.
    2. Both civil and military aircraft have had phased array radars as standard since the 80s
    3. Phased array radar has nothing to do with countering current stealth technologies

    EOR (End-of-rant)

    --
    www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
    1. Re:Mod -999 Wrong by bananaendian · · Score: 4, Informative
      3. Current stealth technologies (ALL of them) only protect from certain radio wavelength. For example, F117 can be detected using one-meter-wavelength radars (as it was demonstrated during the last Balkan war). But you need a fairly large antenna to transmit at such wavelengths, so fighter jets need to use either passive radar system or phased arrays.
      1. So what? It has incremental improvements in engines and armaments. After all, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_launch_vehicle is still used today (though it was designed back in 60-s.

      I'm sorry but I have to keep correcting your ignorance. You cannot install passive radar systems in fighter aircraft. Passive radar systems are huge and heavy and most are composed of multiple geographicly spaced platforms. Again your use of the term phased array is naive. A phased array is merely a trivial way of feeding antenna elements - there are millions of types of antennas which are phased arrays. The idea of phased array has nothing whatsoever to do with countering stealth per-se.

      Nor has anyone claimed, righly so, that stealth makes aircraft undetectable. They merely reduce the radar cross section to a certain extent - and such reduction is indeed variable upon frequency as you pointed out. However VHF-radars, which have been used to detect stealth aircraft are slow, innaccurate and highpower (indeed because of the long wavelenght) and thus vulnerable to anti-radiation missiles and other countermeasures. They are ancient technology. The incident in the Balkan war was an exception that proves the rule. The enemy was incapable of threathing the air-supremacy of NATO and its operations, for all aircraft with or without stealth, because of the wide use of electronic warfare and planning of air-corridors. Stealth merely allows one to use such air-corridores more effectively.

      As for Soyuz, nobody is suggesting that we should abandon the wheel because JSF is going to replace all our technology. We are going to see aircraft such as F16s, F18s, B52s flying well into the next decade and beyong because they are useful and econmical platforms. The JSF offers new capabilities, in addition to all the tech we have now and will only be produced in quantity that is required to meet these new special missions.

      BTW, you can read: http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007810.php and http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/003045.html if you still have illusions about US aircrafts.
      Sorry I have not the time to wade through such rubbish. I only do this stuff for a living. I suggest you get some more reliable sources - start with JANE's literature on the subject.
      --
      www.tribalnetworks.org - helping tribal people around the world to own their own means of high-tech communications
  6. Re:Embarassment by Amazing+Quantum+Man · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, it's a funny joke, but JSF is actually written in C++. The coding standards are available on Bjarne Stroustrup's website.

    --
    Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
  7. Re:from the should-have-read-the-EULA-first dept? by anaesthetica · · Score: 5, Informative

    Agreed. This is, in fact, the whole premise of NATO. By unifying military command structures and forces, the security of every NATO member is linked to one another, and especially linked to the United States. It's already been that way for 50 years (except for France which withdrew under de Gaulle in the 60's).

    One should note that a lot of /.ers are simply making this out to be a U.S. vs. UK thing, but it's more complicated than that. President Bush is fully in favor of giving the UK what it needs in order to certify and fully control the aircraft it purchases. It's principally Rep. Henry Hyde (R-IL) who has been blocking the source code transfer because of his concerns about "technology transfer." Essentially, this is not a Bush administration problem, but a Congressional problem. Since Hyde is retiring, a will be replaced on January 3rd, at least one roadblock may be cleared up.

  8. Code by azariah_d · · Score: 5, Informative

    Aside from any code with the purpose of fascilitating a "shutdown" of the plane, the code for the radar data processing is what the US is most concerned to keep a well guarded secret. Also, 90% of the code for the F22 is written in Ada. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/air craft/f-22-avionics.htm

  9. Re:Let them squabble by killjoe · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's not restraint, it's using the wrong tool for the wrong job. Let's contrast the first gulf war with the current one.

    In the first gulf war we did not plan to occupy iraq so we flew something like 300 sorties a day dropping an ungodly amount of bombs on the place. We targeted and destroyed all kinds of crucial civilian infrastructure such as bridges, electrical generation facilites, water treatment plants, roads, factories etc. Our goal was to make the iraqis suffer so much that they would rise up and overthrow saddam so we worked very hard at hurting as many common iraqis as possible. As a result of these efforts and the sanctions that followed we killed close to two million iraqis including hundreds of thousands of children.

    That was using the right tool for the right job.

    In the second war we wanted to occupy iraq so we didn't want to destroy any infrastructure that we wanted to use ourselves so we didn't target water treatment facilities, bridges etc. We wanted to keep saddams palaces so we could move into them and set up shop. Wrong tool for the wrong job. The US military is awesome at killing, destroying, and making millions of people as miserable as possible. It sucks at police work and occupying an angry populace.

    Wrong tool, wrong job.

    --
    evil is as evil does