Slashdot Mirror


The Dutch Kill Analog TV Nationwide

Willem de Koning writes Yesterday the Netherlands completely ended transmission of analog television signals, becoming the first country in the world to do so. So what about cars and portable TVs? I'm guessing a market will emerge for portable set top boxes / converters." The article mentions the timetable for other countries to go all-digital; by 2011 most or all of the developed world will have made the switch.

27 of 401 comments (clear)

  1. Uh, huh... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ... by 2011 most or all of the developed world will have made the switch.

    And all those obsolete TVs will be dumped in the third world for scrap prices. Going digital might be nice as long as it doesn't destroy the environment and set the third world further back.

    1. Re:Uh, huh... by JesseL · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those obsolete TVs weren't going to last forever in any case. Sometimes you just have to make a clean break from legacy technologies in order to make any progress. At least doing it all at once lets you run reasonably efficient "recycle your old TV" programs.

      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
    2. Re:Uh, huh... by HappySqurriel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And all those obsolete TVs will be dumped in the third world for scrap prices. Going digital might be nice as long as it doesn't destroy the environment and set the third world further back.

      Actually, many of those TVs will probably have people buying a digital-to-analogue reciever for $25-$50 because (as CRT tvs become harder and harder to find) it will be cheaper than upgrading your TV to a reasonable sized LCD/Plasma TV (as a guess, $250-$500 for a 25-30 inch LCD TV).

      There are millions of people who live on less than $25,000 per year in North America and they are probably not going to rush out to spend hundreds of dollars on a new TV.

    3. Re:Uh, huh... by hotdiggitydawg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Where did this whole oh-noes-I-need-a-new-TV thing come from, anyway? Not 100% sure, but I'd bet Sony had a hand in it somewhere...

    4. Re:Uh, huh... by Erwin_D · · Score: 5, Informative

      Only analogue transmissions overether are stopped. Over 90% of the population have cable already (both analogue and digital). What the article fails to mention is that it only impacts about 70,000 people still receiving analogue signals from the air. Plus, the signal is replaced with digital (DVB-T). So these 70,000 can either get a DVB-T or a satelite receiver.

    5. Re:Uh, huh... by MaWeiTao · · Score: 3, Interesting
      There are millions of people who live on less than $25,000 per year in North America and they are probably not going to rush out to spend hundreds of dollars on a new TV.


      Well, I know of two cable guys who would disagree with that statement. They'd point out that there are probably more people who earn less than $25,000 in the inner city who own new HDTVs than you'd find in most middle-class neighborhoods. And by the time 2009 comes around these television sets will be even cheaper, assuming people dont just get adapters. I just hope that in the US we don't start seeing tax dollars go to handouts to provide assistance to people who supposedly can't afford a brand new TV set.
    6. Re:Uh, huh... by slim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually to get the most out of digital you really do need a widescreen set with stereo speakers - so many people will feel a need to upgrade, despite it not being a requirement. Otherwise what is the point - don't say more choice, because at least in the UK only about 2 of the 30 or so channels added to the 'traditional' line-up are actually worth watching. But we're not talking about getting the most out of it. We're talking about getting through an analogue switch-off without losing what you've already got. Come switch off time, the POINT you ask for is getting any sort of TV at all.

      Even so, I'd argue that even if you stuck with 4:3 SD and a built in mono speaker, a Freeview box is worth it for:
        - FilmFour
        - Some of E4 and More4
        - Some of BBC3
        - BBC4
        - BBC News 24

      OTOH, it is true that DTV provides a strong incentive to upgrade your TV. Just wait til FTA terrestrial HD comes along...
    7. Re:Uh, huh... by d2ksla · · Score: 4, Funny
      Entropy always wins.

      Chuck Norris always wins over entropy.

  2. No they didn't by Professor_UNIX · · Score: 5, Informative

    They only discontinued analog broadcasts over the air. The majority of people in the Netherlands get their television service through analog cable and not digital service.

    1. Re:No they didn't by pe1chl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Cable companies here in the Netherlands are planning to do the same thing, but they are being careful not to announce it too clearly.

      Right now, typical cable networks have about 32 analog channels and around 60-90 digital channels of which some are in premium packages.
      Cable companies are agressively marketing their digital packages with offers for free receivers, free premium channels for several months when signing a contract, etc.

      They are complaining that 15 euro per month (the typical price for analog plus the digital base package) is not covering the cost and that the income from the average subscriber has to be doubled in the upcoming years.
      So, what I expect to happen is within a year they announce that "their digital offering has been a big success" and they cut back the number of analog channels in the base package to use them for more premium channels. Existing programmes will still be part of the base digital package for a while, but when the number of subscribers to their premium packages (which often are 10 euros each) is not increasing rapidly enough, they will move some of these channels that traditionally were in the base package (like Discovery, Nat. Geographic, etc) over to a premium package.

      After a while there will be only about 12-16 analog channels left (which the cable companies today have to provide by law) and when "almost all" clients have been forced over to digital this way, the analog package can be dropped just as easily as happened with the terrestrial transmitters yesterday.

      ("there are only 74.000 viewers left so why bother")

  3. Re:Back in the old days by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 5, Informative

    In the USA and most other countries, color TV signals are backwards compatible with the older black and white standards. Old B&W sets worked just fine on color broadcasts. That's one reason why analog color still looks so crappy to this day: the way color signal was shoehorned into the original standard creates a lot of visual artifacts.

  4. Re:Back in the old days by MBCook · · Score: 3, Informative

    Where are you from? In the US the NTSC color signal was specifically developed to maintain compatibility with B&W sets so that no one needed to buy a new TV if they didn't want to. I was under the impression that PAL/SCEAM were developed to do the same thing, but carrying the color information in a different way so it was more stable and immune to noise.

    I know early FM radios don't work now (because RCA got the FCC to move the FM dial's portion of the spectrum in a deliberate attempt to kill the technology), but I've never heard of that with color TV.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  5. Re:The scariest part of this article: by hanwen · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, the state-supported media are more objective than any of the commercial channels.

    Any club of people that can raise a significant number of members will get
    public funding and can participate in the public channel. There are broadcasting organisations
    with socialist, catholic, buddhist, islam, etc. backgrounds, and they all get their voice.

    --

    Han-Wen Nienhuys -- LilyPond

  6. That's not what I was taught. by CyberLord+Seven · · Score: 3, Informative
    Back in the 1950s the FCC was actually a friend of the consumer. Companies developed color televisions, but the signals would not work with existing Black & White televisions so the FCC refused to approve the new technology because it would have required people to have two television sets. One set for watching B&W, the other for color.

    Finally RCA, which owned NBC, developed "compatible" color television sets. This is what became our "modern" NTSC sets.

    And that's also why NBC was used to use a peacock and advertise itself as "an all color network." It's also why all Star Trek (The Original Series) episodes are in color, yet the first year of "Lost In Space" is in B&W.

    --
    We have always been at war with Eurasia!
  7. Re:Back in the old days by PerlDudeXL · · Score: 3, Funny

    Never The Same Color? ;)

  8. Digital signals don't work in cars: doppler effect by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's really bad for the North American 8VSB standard used in ATSC. The COFDM used in the "rest of the world's" "DVB-T" is only marginally better.

    Probably mucho DSP power will eventually compensate, but don't expect portable units to pick up digital TV signals terribly well if they are moving for at least the next several years.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  9. Re:Make up your mind! by Luctius · · Score: 4, Informative

    Its you silly English people who name us "the dutch", and our country either "The Netherlands" or even worse "Holland".
    We name ourselves (as a country) "Nederland", which is inhabited by "nederlanders".

  10. Re:It's HOLLAND by Qzukk · · Score: 4, Funny

    But I don't see what Dutch investment in the US has to do with anything in this article.

    It doesn't, he's just bragging that he personally owns the entire state you live in.

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  11. Re:It's HOLLAND by rve · · Score: 4, Funny

    my real point is- radio waves do not respect borders....

    So what?

    Ending analogue transmissions isn't intended as a punitive or repressive measure, it's meant to save a laughably small amount of money by ending a service that wasn't really used much anymore.

    All these foreign channels are available on their laughably small (analogue) cable networks, free for them to watch on their teeny tiny little TV sets in their silly little houses.

  12. Re:It's HOLLAND by Doctor+Crumb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Radio waves may not respect borders, but they *do* respect the inverse square law, i.e. they don't travel indefinitely. A quick search says that most US radio stations (and I assume tv stations) have a broadcast range of approximate 20 miles. The Netherlands (Holland is a province) has an area of 16,033 sq mi, which means that over 2/3 of the country is out of range of foreign broadcasts.

  13. Re:The scariest part of this article: by wfberg · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, the state-supported media are more objective than any of the commercial channels.

    Any club of people that can raise a significant number of members will get
    public funding and can participate in the public channel. There are broadcasting organisations
    with socialist, catholic, buddhist, islam, etc. backgrounds, and they all get their voice.


    In addition to this, you have to realize
    1) public broadcasters also feature advertising
    2) it has been known for a public broadcaster to become a commercial broadcaster (veronica)
    3) workers from failed commercial broadcasters have been known to rejoin the public system (tv10)
    All of this mitigates the influence of government. (And the government money mitigates undue influence from advertisers).

    The public broadcasters themselves are independent member-run organizations and can (and have) defied government positions. More successfully than the BBC has managed, for instance (turns out they were right about reports about Iraq's weapons being 'sexed up', but they didn't have the balls to say to the government 'you can put in a complaint like any regular citizen').

    Additionally, public broadcasters are required by law to have editorial codes that guarantee editorial/journalistic independence for their employees - independence from both the government, advertisers AND the broadcaster itself. The journalist's trade union is always keen to complain about instances of this independence being threatened.

    Getting impartial/non-partisan news is hardly the problem. The problem is that the news is either boring (especially the christian broadcasters, always yapping on about 'church matters' or, for some not well understood reason, every minute detail of the troubles in Israel) or alarmist and/or xenophobic drivel designed to compete with the commercial channels.

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  14. In praise of state-supported channels by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 4, Informative
    There's been research on this, comparing viewers of state-sponsored broadcasters like PBS and BBC to viewers of FOX and Sky. What they discovered is that the viewers of the state-owned channels are much more likely to know the truth. So for example: In the composite analysis of the PIPA study, 80 percent of Fox News watchers had one of more of these misperceptions, in contrast to 71 percent for CBS and 27 percent who tuned to NPR/PBS

    Does it really sound like the public is being served by the private media? Don't you wish we would have been a bit savvier when, through being misinformed, we supported our politicians in their attack on Iraq?

    1. Re:In praise of state-supported channels by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think that study has it's causation turned all around.

      People who wear tweed coats are probably on average more well-informed than people wearing denim shirts with name patches, but that doesn't mean that putting on a tweed coat will magically make you smarter. It might be self-selective earlier on in the chain somewhere.

      Fox News didn't exist a decade ago, and now it's the top cable news channel, beating out CNN. A whole lot of people chose to watch it. That underlying preference for the viewpoint that Fox espouses is what separates Fox viewers from PBS viewers. And that preference is probably closely linked to a lot of socioeconomic factors like income level, education level, and occupation, all of which could cause people to be more or less well-informed. Unless you control for all those factors, you can't say (and shouldn't imply) that Fox News makes you stupid. It might be that Fox News' viewers were stupid already.

      Looking at the study you linked to (which is by SourceWatch, which I'd argue is somewhat liberally biased) was specifically considering 'misperceptions' concerning the Iraq war and other politically sensitive issues; ignoring the fact that people may in fact be choosing to hold those misperceptions more or less consciously. People are quite capable of believing fervently in things they know not to be true, or at least ought to suspect are not true; to say that something about Iraq is a 'misperception' ignores that someone may decide to support the war in Iraq first, and then choose to believe whatever information best substantiates their already-chosen stance. (On the other side, I know quite a few people who probably believe that G.W. Bush is worse than Hitler and eats a steady diet of nails and raw babies; any information that might detract from this image is quickly ignored.) I think the psychological term for this is confirmation bias. Really, to convincingly show which group of people were more or less informed in an abstract sense, you'd probably want to ask about politically neutral issues.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  15. Re:really should be DVB tell me why ATSC ? by Phreakiture · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ATSC requires less energy to transmit than DVB-T, due to the use of 8VSB modulation rather than OFDM; hence it is cheaper to use. If the USA were as densely packed as most of Europe, then DVB-T would probably be a slam dunk, but we have vast rural areas, and idiotically-built suburbs, and the TV signal needs to reach its audience at a cost that the broadcasters can sustain.

    --
    www.wavefront-av.com
  16. Re:It's HOLLAND by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

    A quick search says that most US radio stations (and I assume tv stations) have a broadcast range of approximate 20 miles.

    20 miles? Are you sure about that? I live in fairly hilly terrian at the bottom of a valley and can tune in even the low powered stations from further away then that -- using nothing more then a indoor wire antenna.

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  17. Re:It's HOLLAND by slim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ending analogue transmissions isn't intended as a punitive or repressive measure, it's meant to save a laughably small amount of money by ending a service that wasn't really used much anymore. No. It's meant to turn a frequency range that can be allocated in exchange for a certain amount of money, into a frequency range that can be allocated in exchange for a significantly larger amount of money. You can fit more digital TV channels into the same bandwidth than you can analogue channels.
  18. ach, that's silly by swschrad · · Score: 3, Interesting

    radio signals from the vast majority of US broadcasters, at 5 kilowatts power, are regularly audible over 120 miles. skywave bounces off the ionosphere cause pockets of listenability for many thousands of miles. the "B" contour of most commercial TV broadcasters, running 25 KW to 100 KW of power audio and 10 to 50 Kw video, where some interference is likely but a good picture is pulled in almost all the time with an external gain antenna beam, runs 50 to 80 miles out.

    every major metropolitan area is served with numerous 5KW radio stations, and those below midband are predictably audible across the SMSA boundary almost all the time, which encompasses radiuses of 20 to 40 miles.

    on such technical material are the frequencies, powers, and beam patterns of radio licenses calculated. this is well-trodden ground, the number of communications lawyers in Washington, DC is second only to the K-street melange of political lobbyists, and they all use the same polar calculations to insure that radio KRAP applies for a license they can actually get authorized and sell enough ads to make money on.

    amateur and shortwave radio can be expected at various bands and at various times, to be useable for two-way communications worldwide.

    the 20-mile limit of Doctor Crumb needs some documentation. Soviet "chord" jamming of the 60s had to be done at the 100 to 200 KW level to drown out the state-run shortwave transmitters of Europe and the US, clearly audible any hour day or night in the US, and with the european state stations running up to 250 KW, they still got listeners.

    yes, inverse-square laws apply. so do good construction principles. in the 1920s, primitive tube radios were made with great sensitivity, and if you had a good set, there was no problem listening on one coast of the US to the other coast nightly. that usually requires better than a 1 microvolt per meter sensitivity, and just about any crummy one-chip radio can do that today.

    I might buy 20 miles for UHF television, merely because this follows line of sight rules with no skywave. but you can erect a tower of 1 + (4/3 (earth radius)) = h in feet and place an antenna, and get the signal of a typical TV broadcaster 35 KW or higher for over a hundred miles on any production TV set.

    no, it gets back to hunger for frequencies, the desire of governments to reassign these frequencies in costly auctions for big dollars, and a serendipitous moment of technology change they can exploit for the purpose to explain why analog commercial broadcasting is going, going, gone. if they ever wanted to get the REALLY big bucks, move the technology into their military nets and sell THAT excess bandwidth. in the US, the military controls 99% of all assignable bandwidth DC to daylight, and has not given up one single 400 Hz channel since the Communications Act of 1939.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?