If Next-Gen Is Too Pricey Go Retro

Via RetroGaming with Racketboy, a story in the San Francisco Chronicle suggesting that you go retro if the new consoles are too expensive. They single out the (still excellent) Sega Dreamcast console as the best buy for your money vs. enjoyment. The folks at SF Gate also mention several other older games and consoles that will allow modern gamers their fun without breaking the bank. From the article: "Scenario 4: I'm poorer than any of the characters from 'Angela's Ashes' but not quite as poor as Jim Braddock's family when the heat got shut off in 'Cinderella Man.' (I pulled this newspaper out of the recycling bin at BART.): You've presented a challenge, but not an impossible one. I saw a copy of the PC game Grim Fandango, a complete masterpiece that most people never played, for $6 on eBay. Since it came out in 1998, you can probably find an abandoned computer on the curb that will play it. You'll be experiencing about 98.5 percent of the fun that the Getty heir who bought the PS3 is having, at about 1 percent of the price. "

Comments

Atari Flashback 2.0

[7grain]

From the article:
The Atari 2600 has come back in several different forms, but the Atari Flashback 2.0 is the only product I've seen that captures the feel of the original late 1970s Atari 2600 console -- including the first Atari Flashback, which is a piece of junk. Among the console's 40 games are the three most important ones: Combat, Pitfall and Yar's Revenge. It's not hard to find a Flashback 2.0 discounted below its $29.82 retail price.

I was initially going to post that I bought one of these last week directly from atari.com for US$19.99, shipping included. Point being that if anyone was interested in this great console, then that was the place to get it.

BUT, now that I'm going to the Atari website to look for a link that I can post, there is no mention of the Flashback console on their website. So... I'm thinking: if you want one, and you see one in the stores, buy it today because it might not be there next month. Whenever I see it in the stores, it's $30.
I'll try to give you this link to the google cache for the page that I ordered from about two weeks ago. Which doesn't help you buy one for twenty bucks, but it does prove that I'm not crazy. :)

Yes, indeed that link does work. Good luck hunting for a deal.

Cheers.

Re:Exactly right

[TrekCycling]

The Dreamcast can still be purchased NEW for $100. If you want your vintage in mint condition that's a great deal. Then you can proceed to have fun with Crazy Taxi, Jet Grind Radio, Chu Chu Rocket, etc.

sad

[grumpygrodyguy]

How did Slashdot get so incredibly populated with noobs?

EMULATORS

I'd ask you to look the word up on wikipedia, but you've probably never heard of that either.

RIP SD

Re:sad

[kestasjk]

Have you ever actually used a Dreamcast emulator? There are always sprites that don't render, polygons which are the wrong color, games which don't load, graphics which were meant to be viewed on the relatively blurry TV looking terrible on a computer screen, etc.

Also the computers required to run an emulator with any sort of speed will always be more expensive than the console, unless you're talking about an antique console which you can no longer find. That kind of defeats the object of trying to be cheap; who doesn't have the money to buy a modern console but does have the money to buy a PC which can emulate one?

Re:sad

[Lord Kano]

How correct you are, Emulators have allowed me to rediscover the joys of the old school games of my youth. At one time, If you had told me that I'd play Below The Root on a 19" LCD, I would have laughed at you.

You can emulate damned near everything from the Atari 2600 to the Playstation, and in some cases get better results than with the original system.

LK

Re:sad

[mgblst]

Can you really say that playing Soul Caliber on an emulator is the same experience as playing it on the dreamcast? Two people hunched over each side of the keyboard.

I mean emulators are great, but they never match the whole experience, how can they? I am sure that a dreamcast wouldn't cost that much. Every heard of ebay?

Re:sad

[cafard]

Two people hunched over each side of the keyboard.

'Every' heard of joypads?

I play all emulators with a ps2 controller plugged in with a usb adapter. While i have no idea for Soul Caliber on dreamcast, all variants of Street Fighter II and the entire Mortal Kombat franchise feel as good under mame as they are on arcade.

Re:sad

[Mattintosh]

There's no "gray" area if you own the original games, but not the console (except in cases where the console has a BIOS, which started becoming common with the PSX). The games are often easy to find at thrift stores (like Goodwill) or resale shops (there's a good chain called "Slackers" here). Ebay is also decent.

Once you have the game, the ROM is legal, or at least as close as you need to worry about being. (Technically, the ROM is only fully legal if you rip it yourself. It's just that you could claim to have ripped it if you show the original cart, and nobody would bother to call you on it.) PSX games are even easier, as you can play them directly from the CD, and it's not difficult to rip your own ISO if you want the convenience.

As far as controllers are concerned, well, it's easy to find dead consoles, salvage some spare parts, and make a cool console-controller-to-USB or -parallel bus converter. There are even premade drivers for some of them.

Re:sad

[xtieburn]

Got emulators. Got them for just about every console you can think of. Have quite literally tens of thousands of games.
Played on about 10 of them for a fairly short period of time and that was only when we had hooked an X-Box in to a jamma cabinet.

Getting every game in existence usually means you play none of them. On the other hand my megadrive stack (MegaCD, megadrive, master system adaptor.) has us playing while drinking, chatting and generally relaxing.

Why this is is probably for various reasons. Easier to pick out games when you only have a shelf of specially bought ones. My friend likes the fact that he has a collection of games that he was once denied due to being too young to come close to affording them. Far more tactile having all the original controllers. Aesthetically pleasing to see your systems all set up (I have megaCD1 and its about the meanest looking console you can get.) etc. etc.

Emulators are good for a tinker, I could imagine being fantastically pleased if you were writing one, but ultimately playing them, at least in this house, is completely unsatisfying.

Which is probably why we have, SNES, Megadrive, MegaCD, Mastersystem (In three different forms), Gamegear, CD32 (My particular favorite.), Spectrum, Dreamcast, Original Gameboy (If only for the original and best Nintendo Tetris.), Jamma cabinet, all set up to play at a moments notice. Every bit of it, well worth the cash.

Re:margin of error (+/-) 0.5%

[Gothic_Walrus]

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you didn't even read the full summary.

I saw a copy of the PC game Grim Fandango, a complete masterpiece that most people never played, for $6 on eBay. Since it came out in 1998, you can probably find an abandoned computer on the curb that will play it. You'll be experiencing about 98.5 percent of the fun that the Getty heir who bought the PS3 is having, at about 1 percent of the price.

$6 game + $0 computer = $6. No Dreamcast involved there.

A new spin on it

[ILuvRamen]

I was in the Sega Genesis and N64 generation and now that I have emulators and N64 controller to USB adapter, it's not only fun to go back to my favorite games (Phantasy Star 3 Generations of doom w00t!) but now there's universal forced pause and forced save state options that can make for some extra interesting situations as well as a fully integrated game genie/shark system that's way more efficient than the original. It's like playing the old games and then some! The best part is it was all cheap or free and I do still actually own the cartridges so it's legal too! I'd suggest emulation over actually playing older consoles. As for PC games...Comanche 4 is still compatible lol.

Re:A new spin on it

[crankyspice]

ROM sites put it on and don't get shut down. That's all the proof I need.

I was in a car going 95 mph, and I didn't get a ticket! It must be legal!

Btw don't copyrights run out after 10 years anyway?

At least in the U.S. (with most of Europe being similar, IIRC; part of the Berne Convention), for "corporate" works like most console video games, it's 95 years from date of first release.

And wtf, the RIAA has nothing to do with games at all.

There's this thing called stare decisis, you might know it as "precedent." There was a case in 1999, the RIAA suing Diamond over its Rio MP3 player. That case gave us precedent to cite for "space-shifting" as a fair use, however, it appears to have been applicable only to digital audio, for which an exemption from the copyright act's blanket (subject to "carve-outs") reservation of the reproduction right as exclusive to the copyright holder was made by the Audio Home Recording Act.

You're right, the RIAA does not administer rights to video games per se (if anyone does, it would probably be the ESA). But they were the plaintiffs in a case that one might cite in support of the position that ROM files may be legal.

Hope your brain hasn't exploded. I know there's actual information here, which might be too much for you.

Re:A new spin on it

[sesshomaru]

I don't understand, does this guy keep getting modded down because he's explaining what the actual laws say and not what people on Slashdot wish they would say?

The mods today remind me of my girlfriend when I tell her we can't afford something...

Re:A new spin on it

[crankyspice]

The AHRA certainly puts a lot of pressure on other forms of media to conform to the same measure of "fair use". RIAA v. Diamond sets a strong precedent, and not just for audio.

The AHRA was a legislative construct where the 'private copying' exemption was (at least in theory) offset by the tariff [for lack of a better word] placed on blank media. The (c) industry as a whole is pretty strongly opposed to such "taking" and, representing our single largest export and ~5% of our GDP, has some pretty strong lobbying support on the Hill. The odds of an AHRA-like piece of legislation passing both houses is pretty slim, I'd wager, but we'll see what the new Congressional majority's temperment is. As it stands now, Diamond applies only to audio, since it was only space-shifting being presumably "within the ambit of the [Audio Home Recording] Act" that made it fair use. Other copyrighted works don't fall within the ambit of the Act.

It could also be argued that, as the hardware used to play older games is no longer produced, space-shifting is in itself a form of archival preservation, and use of archival copies is simply fair use.

There you might have something, under 17 USC 117(a)(1) (permitting an adaptation as a necessary step in using the software with "a machine"). Though you'd probably want to have copied the ROM to the computer yourself for the cleanest application of that doctrine.

ONLY "98.5%"?!!

[MuNansen]

Believe me...anyone playing Grim Fandango is having a great deal more fun than someone playing anything currently available for the PS3.

Indie Games

[ith(4mor3)]

There are so many freeware and shareware games that have been released online by independent developers and programming hobbyists.

The Independent Games Festival is a good start. And to make things easier, there are a many sites and blogs that review indie games and make recommendations: the2bears and Shoot the Core cover shoot-em ups/STGs; Jay is Games handles flash and casual games; and TIGSource (for which I'm an editor), Independent Gaming, and Game Tunnel cover all genres of games. You can expect to find some overlapping, but they each have plenty to search through.

Re:Blah,blah,blah,Zonk,PS3 too expensive,FUD,blah,

[Jerf]

As a computer programmer by trade, I tend to "see through" the graphics to the underlying engine.

So far, while my PS3 sampling is anything but thorough, I am yet to see any engines that are any more advanced than anything on the PS2. Graphics? Nice, and I can't argue with the sharpness. (On TV equipment I don't own, but that topic's been done to death.)

I'm sure some Grand Theft Auto 4 sort of thing will eventually knock my socks off (Grand Theft Auto 3 was the first PS2 game that I saw that I really felt like the Dreamcast couldn't have handled), but we're not there yet.

Nintendo gets the nod here, because the controller means that even though there may well never be a Wii game with an engine that the PS2 couldn't technically have handled competently, the PS2 (and the rest of the current generation) wouldn't be able to let you interact with the engine. So maybe they won't be richer or more powerful but at least they'll be different.

Game engines: The underappreciated component of gaming fun.

I'm going to have to agree with the article

[AbRASiON]

There is a mammoth amount of games out right now for the PC, Playstation 2 and Xbox 1.

If you (like I) am a nostalgia style gamer there's so much fun to be had.
Graphics and online aren't everything, for those of us who enjoy a good single player experience with a good storyline - graphics help but aren't the be all and end all.

I could go into naming all the games but I don't see much point, it's opinion which counts - the fact is the PS2 and Xbox are cheap, a PC which will run games from 1985 (yes 85) to 2000 is dirt cheap and that's 15 years of gaming right there.

Now, some of it is despicably bad and just unplayable (example, X-Wing 1, fantastic game but I re-tried it recently and sorry but 320x200 is no good - it's just TOO blocky, specially on the big screens we all own now)
However Monkey Island 1, Loom, even the 256 colour version of Zak McCracken are all perfectly good games despite being dead old.
There's No one Lives forever a nice FPS with, frankly a fucking great storyline - awesome camp humour and good gameplay - it's seriously like they packed about 15 bond movies into one game.

The PS1 games will work on the PS2 and well the Xbox may have the least games for it but it can be used for NES / SNES / other old console emulation and a media centre (plus KOTOR, Fable, Psychonauts, Beyond good and Evil, Jade Empire)

I for one intend to finish Wing Commander 3 soon - it's a great game also and yet any old crappy PC can run it now.

I would recommend people go to Metacritic and pull up their listing of top games on the platforms - then pick and chose what you like.
Also be sure to get a modified PS2 or Xbox and load the games to the hard disk, if you've purchased a second hand unit of either the laser assembly could be somewhat worn and the faster load times are the ONLY way to play games in my opinion, screw noisy, slow, seeking discs

Here's the blog of a chap I know who focuses primarily on older games for the cheap price.
(excellent game on the main page at the moment too)
http://roushimsx.livejournal.com/

Oh and the final good bulletpoint for you guys, the PS3, Xbox 360 and even the Wii will ALL still be there after you submerse yourself in a land of nostalgia for 6 months - only there will be MORE games, and CHEAPER games plus the systems could be cheaper too.
Personally, I'm hoping to hold out a good 12 - > 18 months.

Good luck.

Re:Blah,blah,blah,Zonk,PS3 too expensive,FUD,blah,

[DoktorSeven]

Or so you've been told. Reality is that no, it's not so advanced and PS2 games can actually hold their own in gameplay with Motorstorm. I have no scientific facts or such to back that up, of course, but I didn't see any in the above post either. Yet by simply playing the game and comparing it to similar games on the PS2, and even the Dreamcast, there's not much difference in any physics. Nothing noticeable, anyway, since if it's true that there is more physics stuff going on, I sure didn't experience it.

It's basically everyone being told that these expensive, shiny new systems are superior in every way, and people see the shiny graphics, drool, and believe every word of it. People want to believe what they are told, and especially those who buy these systems defend the price they paid for it in their minds by fooling themselves into believing it will do everything including curing cancer, and do it better. Sure, the PS3 and the XBox 360 are a bit more powerful than their predecessors. The issue is whether they are significantly more powerful so that games for them are truly next-gen. And in general, except for the graphics, they're really not. And graphics, sorry to say, are not the most important part of a game. If you like pretty graphics and stuff exploding, go watch a movie, go outside, or whatever.

On topic, it amazes me how we march forward into the next generation of gaming and are so willing to pay so much money to be entertained in the same way that we have been entertained by consoles in the past. Given that there are so many good games available for past consoles that you haven't played (unless you are just a hardcore, no-life-outside-of-games gamer that has literally played it all), it's hard to imagine the need for a new console generation. The same, unfortunately, can be said about other entertainment media, especially film which is suffering from the same style-over-substance problem that gaming has, so it is not just gaming that is at issue here. Just like many modern film fans who love the latest SFX-filled action yawner and turn their noses up at old black-and-white cinema classics, new gamers that drool over graphics and won't give old games a second look are shallow people who do not care about the substance of the medium.

It's sad, really.

Right now, I'm replaying (actually re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-replaying) The Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past for SNES and loving it. Old Commodore 64 and Atari 2600 (granted, only a few 2600 games are compelling enough to get regular play, but there are a few of them) games get regular play. I even played through Zork 1 recently. All of these are gaming experiences lost on the latest generation of gamers whose gaming snobbery prevent them from even looking twice at a game without shiny new 3d graphics.

Their loss.

don't get this emulator-rage

[Wooky_linuxer]

Let's see. If people are reading this in /., they most probably already own a computer, so it is hard to say that it will be much more expensive than buying a second-hand console.

Second, most emulators allow you to use USB joysticks. So there goes the argument of two people crammed in front of a keyboard. Also, most decent (and that doesn't mean expensive) GPUs today sport some sort of TV-OUT capability, so you can just play the games in your TV-set.

I concede that sometimes emulation isn't up to pair with the original console. But that doesn't mean it is always inferior.

Re:C64

[Rob T Firefly]

But on the downside, you have to play with a joystick that looks like Spongebob. *shudder*

Re:Blah,blah,blah,Zonk,PS3 too expensive,FUD,blah,

[MooseMuffin]

"If you like pretty graphics and stuff exploding, go watch a movie, go outside, or whatever."

Or I can play my shiny new console. Why are you telling me I shouldn't look to videogames for my graphics fix? I was perfectly happy with the way games were played last generation. I was perfectly happy with the way they were played the generation before that too. The pace of gameplay innovations has been just fine in my eyes. Give me the gameplay types I've come to love with an extra dose of pretty and I'll be happy. Obviously I'm not alone. If graphics aren't important to you thats fine, but don't say they aren't important to the genre.

I played and enjoyed the hell out of a Link to the Past. I've probably played through Zelda OOT and FF6 five times each (OOT as recently as a month ago). Those games are no less great now than they were then, but they also were graphically fantastic at the time they were released and that certainly contributed to their success.

why just last month...

[snuf23]

I installed AMAME on my Workbench 3.0 desktop running in emulation under WinUAE. I had a bit of a problem because my ROM sets were out of date, but the ones that worked, worked fine. The only bummer was that I had to use full screen mode to get proper color support for MAME - which meant that there was no really good way to get a nice screenshot of the Windows desktop with Amiga desktop in a window running AMAME in a windows.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks about these things.