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Melting Coins Now Illegal In the U.S.
A number of readers have noted the action by the U.S. Mint to outlaw the melting down or bulk export of coins. This has come about because the value of the precious metals contained in coins now exceeds their face value.
The Mint would rather not have to replace pennies (at a cost of 1.73 cents per) or nickels (at 8.74 cents). The expectation is that Congress will mandate new compositions for some U.S. coins in 2007.
As much as I can understand why they do not want people melting down these coins, how much is the metal really worth in it's "raw" form unrefined?
My second question is how much would it cost to refine these metals to make them worth the most? Copper prices are sky high right now but a lump of melted pennies probably wouldn't be able to be sold as a "copper" since there are a number of other metals involved. Is this something that can really be profitable?
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
I wonder how much of this is because of "increasing value of precious metals" and how much is "The devaluing of the American dollar" (I recognize that from the perspective of Americans this would be the same thing); if it is based on the dollars value, why wouldn't you attempt to correct the problem with the dollar (by not running a 1/2 trillion dollar deficit) rather than finding cheaper materials?
It's also illegal to mutilate or destroy paper money. This is not much of an issue. I didn't know when slashdot became concerned over the money supply.
lemme just grab some tin foil out of the kitchen....... Seriously though, I wonder what they will use for the new coins....
Plastic?
I mean, it's not like we're running short on oil.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
And for folks who'll ask, replacing cash with electronic transactions isn't the answer. I for one like the anonymity of cash and the fact that I'm carrying a physical object of known value that can handle some pretty heavy abuse before becoming worthless.
-b.
Perhaps it's time to start seriously thinking about withdrawing the penny from circulation. You can't buy anything with a penny anymore. You only really use them for two reasons:
1. Stores like the $X.99 price point, because it subtly makes people think they're paying $X rather than $X+1. $X.95 is also popular, and could work with only nickels.
2. Sales tax is based on percentage, so even if you have a round price like $1.00, you may end up with something like $1.07.
OK, 3 reasons if you're paying for gas with cash. But note that gas stations already advertise prices to the thousandth of a dollar -- as far as I know, the US has never actually minted a mil -- and they already get rounded up to the nearest penny. I'm sure gas stations would be quite happy to round to the nearest nickel instead.
Of course, given how many transactions are electronic these days, withdrawing the penny wouldn't necessarily alter credit or debit transactions.
Under what authority can the US Mint create new law? The US Mint, the Secret Service and the Treasury are all in the enforcement, not the legislative branch.
Some AC said it was illegal to mutilate or deface paper money. Uh, no, it's not. It's also not illegal to cut up a US coin in some artistic fashion and sell it for a higher amount; this is done all the time. In terms of defacement, you can't stick a picture of Kennedy on a quarter and try to redeem it as a half-dollar, and the same goes for gluing a "20" on the corner of a one-dollar bill. That's simple fraud, in this case called counterfeiting.
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Making melting down the coins illegal is one of those things that will just give petty criminals ideas.
They should just add some sulphur to the coins. It makes them more machinable (not much use for stamped coins though) and utterly destroys their value for recycling.
Maybe the real reason they're doing this is that they've added RFID chips to coins and they don't want people destroying lots of them.
the more they over-think the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the pipe
It isn't that crazy. Since 1930 the US dollar has dropped in value roughly 14-fold. A quarter is 2 old cents, a dollar is 7. A penny, nickel, or dime are hardly worth anything. It is about time we eliminate the hundredths point on our currency. It has no meaning.
Phone companies around the world are having problems with people cutting down their lines to steal the copper.
The US had a previous round of making it illegal to melt down coins - for a number of years in the late 1800s and early 1900s, the US was on a bimetallic standard, with both gold and silver exchangable at a fixed ratio, so depending on the relative market value of gold vs. silver, people could play games with the rates, and some years it made sense to take dollar banknotes to the Treasury and get coins in one of the metals, melt them down, and sell the metal as bullion, so it was made illegal. This was also tied up in politics of farmers' loans (e.g. if you had a debt in dollars, could you pay with the cheaper metal or did you have to pay with the more expensive metal), mining interests, etc.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The truth is, any nation that mixes common metals (not say, silver or gold) in their coins doesn't need to worry about the melting-down issue unless the metal prices go through the roof. It just wouldn't be profitable. Now Canada, I believe their nickel-based coins are pure or nearly so. That might be a different matter.
The world is my oyster. That's why it's always in a stew.
I wonder what the feds think of this penny pressing site?
pressedpenny.com
What is the government definition of "bulk"?
I more than agree with you and the very very few people who actually understand the tragedy of the US monetary system and how it's affecting the world. To that end, I recommend the following:
At risk of sounding like Stallman, I suggest creating the habit of referring to the "Federal Reserve" as "The Federal Reserve Corporation." This will help to drive home the fact that the U.S. monetary system is in the private hands of bankers and not under governmental control which is supposed to be proxy to the people of the United States.
Keep in mind that no one in the government or in the Federal Reserve Corporation are telling anyone any lies about it. They just aren't telling anyone anything they don't want them to know and they do everything they can to keep people thinking what they want them to think.
At some level, everyone knows about it but they haven't made all the necessary connections. For example: Ask anyone what are the three areas of government? They'll likely answer Executive, Legislative and Judiciary. But we hear with every news show that "The Fed" is doing this, that or the other with "the interest rates" to do this that or the other with the economy. And exactly WHICH branch of government does "The Fed" work under? No one can answer it and it doesn't bug them that they don't know it either. There's talk about the president nominating the chair of the Federal Reserve [corporation!] and all this but they say nothing about what are the qualifiers might be for being nominated. They are bankers already a part of the Federal Reserve Corporation of course... they are just rearranging the deck chairs on our titanic and it really doesn't matter who they name -- it's all the same people.
So please, for everyone who understands the nature of the problem, let's just stick to reporting the facts that no one seems to see in front of their faces. The Federal Reserve Bank Corporation is a Delaware corporation founded in the early 1900's (1913 was it?). It's a privately held corporation so you can't own stock in it. And *ALWAYS* refer to it by its full correct name. Not "The Fed." Not "The Federal Reserve." But by a name which will remind everyone where the interest lies: "The Federal Reserve Bank [Corporation]."
(Also of interesting note: every time you hear about where individual income tax monies are being used, you have to know that the IRS collect money from individuals to pay down the interest on the loans that the U.S. Federal Government has taken out from The Federal Reserve Bank. All other taxes collected from other sources and loans taken from The Federal Reserve Bank corporation are how other things are paid for.)
And finally, a question to those who know more than I do on this subject: Does the Federal Reserve Bank coporation pay taxes? If yes, how much? If no, why not?
It may be peak copper, but there is another possible reason:
Consider for a moment that gold and silver are normally used as a hedge against inflation. Over the last 20 years they have not kept up with inflation though. If you do any reading on the subject some claim this is due to central banks manipulating the price of gold/silver to help disguise inflation. If the above is true, gold and silver prices would stay depressed, but inflation would show up in other commodities. E.G. base metals as they have not been used as a typical investment hedge and thus the central banks would not have tried to manipulate their prices directly.
The Fed quietly announced thanksgiving weekend in 2005 that they would no longer publish the M3 money supply figure. For those who don't know the M3 figure is the estimate of total US dollars out in the world. It was used by many as a direct gauge of US monetary inflation policy.
Here is a link to a reconstituted M3 figure Some think the removal of this information was done to hide the true scope of the impending financial problems that are on the horizon.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
No discussion of currency destruction is complete without mention of Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty of KLF burning one million pounds.
My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
They were steel in '43, and the so-called shell-casing bronze in '44-'45, and the more standard bronze the rest of the run until 1982.
By the way, if you stack some pre-'81 pennies alternating with post-'82 pennies and heat the whole mass over a bunsen burner, when the zinc melts the whole works fuses with a blue flash and you can pry big pretty pieces of brass out of the mass. It works much better if you melt the old ones, then drop the new ones into the melt, because the zinc dissolves before oxidizing, but it takes *quite* a burner to melt a bunch of copper.
Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
To put it another way: I call bullshit.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
All "hard money" is just an accounting fiction anyway. As are paper money and credit.
That will not be missed as alternative coin-reception techniques have been developed. :)
"Juicies" in the Phillipines have perfected a very entertaining way of picking up stacked change from atop a San Miguel bottle. The more skillful can return the stack coin-by-coin.
Shouts to any Nipa Hut or Fire Empire patrons in da house!
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
"a business making money off destroying currency (and costing the government money) might be [a crime]"
Yes, it should be a punishable crime... and some public workers should pay for it.
How is it possible to have things so upwards?
It is *not* "costing the government money"; it is costing the *taxpayers'* money. It is the government the one that is using something to guarantee something of less value. It is the government's fault and it is the government the one that should pay for such a deep arrogance about thrashing away tax-payers' money.
Well, the government declares owing me a cent by means of an item called "a cent". OK, that's the government side of the deal; it had all the powers to choose a piece of paper or a Ferrari to stablish its debt against me. But then, someone else offers me 1.73 cents for such a token. Why shouldn't I accept it? Despite what the government says, the *thruth* is that I'm liberating the government of a "contract" with me. In what crazy world is the debtor able to punish the one that wanted to condom the debt?
However, gold, copper, nickle are also commodities which can change in relative value, just like money or coffee. It just depends where the value goes. You could think of them as a cloud of things all moving up and down relative to one another. There is no fixed point other than one you choose, like gold or dollars.
At the moment, yes, the dollar is in freefall, demand for it is reducing and the supply is as high as it's ever been.
Deleted
In practice, this does not occur for many businesses in Australia. Small businesses like cafes, bakeries and the like set their prices to the nearest 5 cents or 10 cents, so no rounding occurs.
In Australia & NZ the tax is included in the price of each item, whereas in Canada & USA the tax is applied afterwards. Prices in Canada / USA usually end in a 5, 0 or 9, but it is the tax being applied which gets you one of the other digits in the penny column. They would have to adjust to a system of including taxes in the price, which I have never seen anywhere in Canada/USA. Or they could start listing odd prices which don't end in a 5, 0, or 9, which would also be quite unusual for us.
Here in Mexico they have 10, 20 and 50 cent coins. Only the 50 cent coin is in common usage. A common thing to do here at grocery stores and 7/11 style convenience stores is to round up for charity. If your total comes to 100.56 pesos, they ask if you want to donate the 44 cents to charity, you pay 101 pesos and the tiny charity donation is listed on your receipt, and gives you a nice round number. The larger chain stores will give out those 10 & 20 cent pieces, or round, but all the small stores just set their prices to the nearest peso. But the sales tax is included in the price here, so they can do that easily without having to quote people odd prices (listing the price as 6.09 @ 15% tax to get $7.00, for example).